perryigis lp fe7 What are the good characters?

[De Geso]

14 minutes ago, Jedi said:

They're still really easy to deal with as you have Marcus. 

Moving the goal posts. My point wasn't that the game is too hard to use Erk, my point was that he gets two shotted for a while until he can get some levels (and even then he gets 3 shot instead).

[Shiki]

... Lowen better than Kent and Sain? Err, what?

Ask these questions yourself.
Can he actually pull his weight with long-term investment?
Does he actually contribute during his availability lead?

The answer to these questions is the same: no.

Lowen has decent base stats but they do not permit him to kill something reliably. His 7 base Spd doesn't double anything but Soldiers which pretty much everyone not named Bartre can do. His damage isn't impressive either. He has trouble to 2-shot a majority of the enemies in 12/13/13x and he needs to be fed kills for EXP. Just as a reminder if you're not named Marcus you need at least 2 units to kill a single enemy in HHM. 3 if you suck (looking at you, Eliwood and Rebecca).

But then we have his growths (which doesn't matter at all for dondon). 30% in Str and Spd is really poor. He doesn't reach any kind of impressive benchmark until he gets his early promotion where his performance peaks. But at the point you get the first Knight Crest you already have Kent and Sain after a chapter which favors Cavaliers. Lowen has undoubtely a level lead at this point but how much? 1-2 Level without severe favoritism. That's something you can bridge easily during 16x and maybe 17. His average stats with the lead don't even differ that much from Kent or Sain (aside maybe HP) and these 2 will likely end up better than him offensively. You have to ask yourself if you really want to drag Lowen along anymore since there are 2 units that will perform better than him and Knight Crests aren't cheap either. Even worse if you do Ranked Runs where a promotion can be really expensive.  

What Lowen does is to be a reliable help in the earlier parts of the game where you don't have a slew of OP units like Sain, Kent, Raven etc. But it stops with that. Aside from his great durability he has really nothing to offer compared to the other Cavaliers in the game. He might be better than Isadora due to his availability but he will never compare to the Christmas Knights.

@topic:

Eliwood Hard Mode is not that hard. You lose the HHM bonus but in turn the enemies are also quite a bit weaker which makes it easier for your units.
Let me divide my suggestion in 3 parts:

Early:

Spoiler

- Marcus (He trivializes the game. He only needs the investment of a Speedwing and he can tear apart stuff all the time with a Hand Axe or Javelin)
- Hector (durable, can 2 shot a lot of enemies; probably not worth promoting unless you really like him as he has low Mov)
- Oswin (see Hector but even better in the earlygame; his lack of Movbites him hard though because maps become quite a bit bigger later on)
- Serra
- Matthew (you don't want to miss treasure chests)
- Lowen (as you can see in my detailed comment Lowen is good to use early on, especially on EHM where his lack of stats matter less)
- Guy (even without HHM his great Spd and Killing Edge allows him to pull his weight early on; don't use afterwards since he doesn't do anything against Wyvern Riders)
- Erk (your only mage in the early game; he is solid but nothing outstanding. Feel free to drop him if you get a certain man named Pent)
- Florina (early flier; if you didn't train her in Lyn mode drop her later for Fiora)
- Kent/Sain (probably the most reliable units in the game; can't go wrong with one of them, if not both)

Mid:

Spoiler

- Raven (pretty good stats but you need to baby him a bit to least Level 10. He isn't that good without his promotion where he can chuck Hand Axes to someone's face)
- Fiora (pretty mediocre stats but she will do; superior in every way compared to an untrained Florina)
- Legault (he is more durable than Matthew, that's it. Thief is thief and a better thief is better)
- Ninian (she is one of the best refresher in the entire series due to those amazing rings; Nini's +10 damage reduction is absolutely ludicrous, especially for farming in Arena)
- Isadora (she may look unimpressive but she is actually really good. Besides being already a Paladin she has really good Spd which offsets her low Con. She can chuck Javelins as good as a early-promoted Kent. If you give her the Angelic Robe she comes with she will pull her weight for most of the game. Quite underrated unit overall.
- Heath (compared to Fiora or Florina he is quite a bit more durable in exchange having a huge weakness against magic; also quite slow when you get him so a Speedwing or an early promotion will be necessary to fix that flaw)

Late:

Spoiler

- Hawkeye (this man is really hard to kill and has a penchant for crits; the only Berserker worth using and boy is he good at it)
- Pent (everything you wanted minus the mount; strong magic user, staff bot and instant A-Rank support for good measure though fielding Louise is a different matter entirely)
- Harken (not sure if you go blind but if you can try to get him instead of Karel; the Brave Sword is much better than the Wo Dao, his base stats rival a fully promoted Raven and he is much better at wielding axes than him)

Of course I didn't take in account what your aims are. Ranked? Plain walkthrough? Do you have specific goals like visiting a specific map? These suggestions are more general so some of them might not coincide with your personal goals.

[Athena_57]

9 hours ago, Talandar said:

... Lowen better than Kent and Sain? Err, what?

Ask these questions yourself.
Can he actually pull his weight with long-term investment?
Does he actually contribute during his availability lead?

The answer to these questions is the same: no.

Lowen has decent base stats but they do not permit him to kill something reliably. His 7 base Spd doesn't double anything but Soldiers which pretty much everyone not named Bartre can do. His damage isn't impressive either. He has trouble to 2-shot a majority of the enemies in 12/13/13x and he needs to be fed kills for EXP. Just as a reminder if you're not named Marcus you need at least 2 units to kill a single enemy in HHM. 3 if you suck (looking at you, Eliwood and Rebecca).

But then we have his growths (which doesn't matter at all for dondon). 30% in Str and Spd is really poor. He doesn't reach any kind of impressive benchmark until he gets his early promotion where his performance peaks. But at the point you get the first Knight Crest you already have Kent and Sain after a chapter which favors Cavaliers. Lowen has undoubtely a level lead at this point but how much? 1-2 Level without severe favoritism. That's something you can bridge easily during 16x and maybe 17. His average stats with the lead don't even differ that much from Kent or Sain (aside maybe HP) and these 2 will likely end up better than him offensively. You have to ask yourself if you really want to drag Lowen along anymore since there are 2 units that will perform better than him and Knight Crests aren't cheap either. Even worse if you do Ranked Runs where a promotion can be really expensive.  

What Lowen does is to be a reliable help in the earlier parts of the game where you don't have a slew of OP units like Sain, Kent, Raven etc. But it stops with that. Aside from his great durability he has really nothing to offer compared to the other Cavaliers in the game. He might be better than Isadora due to his availability but he will never compare to the Christmas Knights.

You make a few fair points, however, I'm still going to disagree with your conclusion. Whilst I agree with you that during the lategame Kent and Sain are better, I disagree with your statement that Lowen doesn't contribute during the first few chapters. Sure, he's no Marcus, but that doesn't mean he can't contribute, just like the lategame being easy doesn't mean Kent and Sain can't contribute.

Then, after early promoting him, he is better than them as well. Sure, there's a good chance he'll be benched later in favor of Kent or Sain or both, but I think his superiority in the early and midgame outweighs their superiority in the endgame. So yes, they are better in the lategame and Lowen might very well get benched at some point, that doesn't mean they're better overall as his earlygame is just as important. 

Finally, about the knight crests, in a ranked run you could very well be right about needing to conserve them, in a non-ranked run this isn't really an issue as whilst the 10K gold is nice, it's not a reason to deny one of your cavaliers a promotion. You probably won't be promoting Oswin anyways, and though it's a shame the other cavs have to wait 1 or 2 chapters longer for their promotion, it's not that big of a deal.

Ultimately it boils down to:

First 25%: Lowen is, after Marcus, Oswin and maaaybe Hector (though I disagree on this) your best unit. His movement, high aid and defense make him very good here, Kent and Sain don't show up yet

Second 25%: Lowen starts with a level (==> stat) lead on the Christmas cavs, then gets promoted as they're leveling at which point he is once again one of your best dudes. Lowen is still really good here, Kent and Sain are useful, but still need some babying.

Third 25%: Kent and Sain have caught up at this point and are promoted, though they overtake him here, Lowen is still useful as a wall, rescuedropper and medium combat unit

Last 25%: Lowen probably gets benched somewhere around here, Kent and Sain are great.

Lowen's usefulness in quarter 1 is comparable to their usefulness in quarter 4 but 2nd quarter Lowen is slightly more useful there than 3rd quarter Kent and Sain there and I find Lowen's utility and tankiness more useful in quarter 3 than the contributions of Kent and Sain in quarter 2. Lowen is better in the first half of the game, the other 2 are better in the second half, but Lowen contributes more in the later half than the other two do in the first half. This makes me conclude that Lowen is overall the better unit, if only slightly.

Anyways, I suppose we should stop this discussion as I think we all agree that the 3 of them are just great units. Nitpicking over who's the best, although fun, is kinda pointless.

[Shiki]

3 hours ago, athena_57 said:

Then, after early promoting him, he is better than them as well.

Which can be said the same for an early-promoted Sain or Kent. That's not a good argument since all 3 want the first Knight Crest.

3 hours ago, athena_57 said:

First 25%: Lowen is, after Marcus, Oswin and maaaybe Hector (though I disagree on this) your best unit. His movement, high aid and defense make him very good here, Kent and Sain don't show up yet

Guy is definetly better than Lowen during this part of the game. He can actually double and kill enemies which Lowen can't do. He has dips for his Killing Edge since nobody wants it or can't use it. Lowen has a D Rank and by the time he reaches C, the Killing Edge is probably gone.

3 hours ago, athena_57 said:

Finally, about the knight crests,

You don't have an infinite amount of them, that's the important part. After the first one, the next one is carried by the boss in Chapter 21/22. You only have the option to buy more from the Secret Shop at the penultimate chapter which is too late to consider.
So 2 Knight Crests in total for 3 Cavaliers (+ a Knight you're not considering). If you use these precious items you are considering long-term use and then Lowen falls short compared to them because of his lower growths.

3 hours ago, athena_57 said:

Second 25%: Lowen starts with a level (==> stat) lead on the Christmas cavs, then gets promoted as they're leveling at which point he is once again one of your best dudes. Lowen is still really good here, Kent and Sain are useful, but still need some babying.

Did you actually check the average stats for these 3? Lowen has not a significant lead with a higher level on average because of his meager growths. The difference is around ~1-2 points if Lowen is Level 7 compared to their base (with an HP lead of course). Not to mention what kind of level advantage are you imagining? Lowen isn't going to be Level 10 or higher when you reach Chapter 16/17 unless you actively feed him kills.

3 hours ago, athena_57 said:

Third 25%: Kent and Sain have caught up at this point and are promoted, though they overtake him here, Lowen is still useful as a wall, rescuedropper and medium combat unit

You already used one Knight Crest so you can only promote one of them. If you're using Lowen for this kind of stuff you have wasted the Knight Crest. Lowen doesn't need to be a better ferry he needs it to be a better combat unit.
Fun fact: At that point you have Isadora who has better weapon ranks and comes promoted. At this point you are guarenteed to bench one of the 3 Cavaliers (unless it's ranked where you have to cycle around anyways).

3 hours ago, athena_57 said:

Last 25%: Lowen probably gets benched somewhere around here, Kent and Sain are great.

So you benched two units for the sake of making one last longer for 25%. You see the problem?
Also you're wrong since a promoted Lowen can actually be still useful if he has build up his Axe Rank. Even in HHM they are a ton of unpromoted enemies in the last chapters which Lowen should get rid of.

3 hours ago, athena_57 said:

Anyways, I suppose we should stop this discussion as I think we all agree that the 3 of them are just great units. Nitpicking over who's the best, although fun, is kinda pointless.

Is Lowen a solid unit? Indeed he is.
If you're saying that Lowen can be worth the promotion, I can agree with that. After all Paladins are never bad to have.
But stating that he is better than Kent or Sain just because of his higher availability is plain wrong. In that case Will would be better than Rath which would defy common sense.
Yes, without Lyn Mode the gap between those 3 is smaller but they still have an edge over him. Maybe not Kent, if one is generous, but Sain ends up quite a bit superior than Lowen due to actually kill enemies in a single round of combat.

If you do such an argument you need to back them up with proper facts. Enemy stats, average growths stuff, like that. Not even in detail but just something in the general direction. SF is a great source for that so there is no real reason not to.

[Athena_57]

4 minutes ago, Talandar said:

Which can be said the same for an early-promoted Sain or Kent. That's not a good argument since all 3 want the first Knight Crest.

Yes, but Lowen gets there earlier, furthermore, they all have great killing potential after promoting, making their offense less relevant compared to Lowens defense

Guy is definetly better than Lowen during this part of the game. He can actually double and kill enemies which Lowen can't do. He has dips for his Killing Edge since nobody wants it or can't use it. Lowen has a D Rank and by the time he reaches C, the Killing Edge is probably gone.

Even in the early game I value lance access (specifically javelin access) and movement over the ability to use the killing edge, though I'll agree it's close. Still, the point that he's one of the best still stands

You don't have an infinite amount of them, that's the important part. After the first one, the next one is carried by the boss in Chapter 21/22. You only have the option to buy more from the Secret Shop at the penultimate chapter which is too late to consider.
So 2 Knight Crests in total for 3 Cavaliers (+ a Knight you're not considering). If you use these precious items you are considering long-term use and then Lowen falls short compared to them because of his lower growths.

You have 3 knight crests in EHM, you get one in chapter 24 by stealing it. To quote you: "If you do such an argument you need to back them up with proper facts. Enemy stats, average growths stuff, like that. Not even in detail but just something in the general direction. SF is a great source for that so there is no real reason not to." Also I literally said you probably wont be promoting Oswin.

Did you actually check the average stats for these 3? Lowen has not a significant lead with a higher level on average because of his meager growths. The difference is around ~1-2 points if Lowen is Level 7 compared to their base (with an HP lead of course). Not to mention what kind of level advantage are you imagining? Lowen isn't going to be Level 10 or higher when you reach Chapter 16/17 unless you actively feed him kills.

I sure did, did you? See my earlier posts, where I posted their bases. He is about 4 stats behind at a point where he's 3/4 levels behind depending on who you compare him to. Even with his "meager" growths, he beats them by a fair margin.  

You already used one Knight Crest so you can only promote one of them. If you're using Lowen for this kind of stuff you have wasted the Knight Crest. Lowen doesn't need to be a better ferry he needs it to be a better combat unit.
Fun fact: At that point you have Isadora who has better weapon ranks and comes promoted. At this point you are guarenteed to bench one of the 3 Cavaliers (unless it's ranked where you have to cycle around anyways).

You have 3, so this first point is invalid. I'm not using the knight crest to make him a better ferry, m making him a better combat unit. A few chapters later he can become a ferry, but that's not the reason I used it in the first place.

So you benched two units for the sake of making one last longer for 25%. You see the problem?
Also you're wrong since a promoted Lowen can actually be still useful if he has build up his Axe Rank. Even in HHM they are a ton of unpromoted enemies in the last chapters which Lowen should get rid of.

I never said I benched them, I said Lowen does more. You can use them all, they're good enough. I'm also not saying you have to bench him, you claim he's inferior than the other 2, in which case it's not a problem if you bench him.

Is Lowen a solid unit? Indeed he is.
If you're saying that Lowen can be worth the promotion, I can agree with that. After all Paladins are never bad to have.
But stating that he is better than Kent or Sain just because of his higher availability is plain wrong. In that case Will would be better than Rath which would defy common sense.
Yes, without Lyn Mode the gap between those 3 is smaller but they still have an edge over him. Maybe not Kent, if one is generous, but Sain ends up quite a bit superior than Lowen due to actually kill enemies in a single round of combat.

That Wil vs Rath comparison is just as ridiculous as the Erk vs Pent comparison that was used before. Wil lacks a horse and Rath has an actual stat lead over Wil, not to mention cavs are easier to train than archers. Yes, Sain ends up better, but during the road there Lowen is better.

If you do such an argument you need to back them up with proper facts. Enemy stats, average growths stuff, like that. Not even in detail but just something in the general direction. SF is a great source for that so there is no real reason not to.

Says the guy who claimed you got 2 knight crests when you get 3. Also, if you scroll back, you'll see I posted their base stats before.

 

[Shiki]

46 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Yes, but Lowen gets there earlier, furthermore, they all have great killing potential after promoting, making their offense less relevant compared to Lowens defense

Again what Level is Lowen supposed to have? I can see 1-2 Level lead but more is a lot more than he can ask for.

11 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Even in the early game I value lance access (specifically javelin access) and movement over the ability to use the killing edge, though I'll agree it's close. Still, the point that he's one of the best still stands

Javelin access until 13x is not great because there are a lot of Brigands making them quite unreliable. Unless you are Marcus with a Hand Axe ranged combat doesn't shine until much later because they don't double with these weapons. Enemies in the midgame have existent Spd and are only so slow later due to Steel weapons.

Lowen doesn't kill anything significant in the earlygame that isn't soldiers (maybe 1-2 archer that have the lower Spd). He has trouble to kill something in 1 round which makes it that much harder for him to contribute effectively. He is not the best he is just above-average.

14 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

You have 3 knight crests in EHM, you get one in chapter 24 by stealing it.

Oh right we're talking about EHM. Woops.
The problem is (again) the availability of that thing. There is no real reason to take along a Level 1 Paladin with you at that point, even in EHM.

20 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

I sure did, did you? See my earlier posts, where I posted their bases.

I saw it. You pretty much posted their base stats which is saying nothing. You're not taking account growths or certain benchmarks. 30% are falling more quickly than you realize even if Lowen has a ~3 Level lead. That's why Lowen's good base stats matter to begin with.

Lowen at Level 5 (Kent's base Level) has ~26 HP, 8 Str, 8 Spd and 8 Def (Skl, Luk, Res are not that important for this discussion).
He reaches the same offensive stat spread as Kent at the same Level but wins in Hp and Def.
But if you go say with Level 7~8 due to his low growths he doesn't get more than having +1 point in each stat (ofc way more in Hp). That difference will be quickly forgotten once Sain or Kent reach the same level and it isn't unrealistic to make them catch up to Lowen's lead. The durability is a thing but it's better to kill something reliably then withstanding punishment. The two don't even have that bad durability either.

31 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

I'm also not saying you have to bench him, you claim he's inferior than the other 2, in which case it's not a problem if you bench him.

If you promote Lowen first then the 3rd Cavalier is lagging behind no matter what because he lacks the early promotion. Having a not promoted unit for a majority of the game is nothing more than a drag. This goes beyond having that additional crest in EHM. When you get to Chapter 24 and afterwards and Lowen falls behind then you can't just use Kent over him.

37 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

That Wil vs Rath comparison is just as ridiculous as the Erk vs Pent comparison that was used before.

Yes, it's an exaggeration but they showcase a similar problem. Lowen vs Sain/Kent is naturally much tamer and more close in terms of power but there is still a difference.

Oh well, I'm done. The TC (or other readers) need to choose their units, not me. They will know what's best for them.

[Florete]

On Knight Crests: in HHM, if you really want to use all 3 cavs (or 2 cavs + Oswin), you can use the Ch 24 Earth Seal.

[Paper Jam]

It seems unlikely that you would level them all up to 20 before chapter 31 anyway, and you can buy more Knight Crests from the Secret Shop there if you really want them.

[PerIg0716]

I wish  could mention everyone but should I use the arena? I asked someone who is a pro at Fire Emblem and he said I should use it but I will not record me using the arenam I need to be prepared of Battle before Dawn and the chapters after it because they're garbage. If I'm using the arena I think I should have picked Hector Mode but I'm already at Chapter 14. I just released a new episode of Fire Emblem Blazing Sword on YouTube. Ask me if you want the link the thumbnail is kinda similar to the thumbnails of this Fire Emblem YouTuber (I forgot his name I don't watch his vids)

[Florete]

Depends. If you feel like you're struggling, go for it. If you don't mind glitch abuse, you can preserve Ninis's Grace uses by rescuing the boosted unit and dropping them on the next turn, making arena usage very safe.

[PerIg0716]

I'm thinking about making a new series of me playing in Hector Hard Mode! I plan on doing it this month, after Christmas, after reaching 1k subs, or after my FE7 Let's Play EHM. But I will use the arena, possibly use landmine glitch, and use this glitch

53 minutes ago, Florete said:

Depends. If you feel like you're struggling, go for it. If you don't mind glitch abuse, you can preserve Ninis's Grace uses by rescuing the boosted unit and dropping them on the next turn, making arena usage very safe.

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Perryigi