guedesbrawl Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) (Disclaimer: they could've done better. Even though it's not always possible, in a vacuum, I fully realize they could've done better. Also, this is mostly a copy from my Reddit post [which is a copy og my Gfaqs post] and this is the first time i'm using fancy formating in SF. If you see weird stuff, know i'm probably trying to get it to work while you read it.) [Edit: OK, I'm not seeing any options to get rid of these grey boxes. Help?] So these three characters in particular seem to be the roster's most controversial characters that don't have an easy defense to their name. Leo is really popular, Lyn/Celica/Lucina were forced by Ninty/IS... Cordelia is a different case. I'll slightly defend her too, but not the main focus here. I will, however, consider that Hinoka was chosen earlier than Cordelia to be in the roster. Likewise, I won't consider Anna when discussing Sakura, since Anna is a bonus character with no ties to the plot. So let's begin. There are three major reasons these characters cause controversy, and I'll address each individually. 1- Too much fates representation -> too little SD representation. The first thing I want to make explicit here: SD was meant to have at least 4 reps, and only has 3 because Lyn stole Navarre's slot. He has the same moveset as Lyn, actually plays a role in the story, and the moveset fits him 100 times better than Lyn since he is actually depicted as a dual-wielder. Secondly, there's a bit of a false equivalence fallacy when it comes to how these three "stole slots" from other (SD) characters. As clones, there are more nuances to consider here... which I'll cover in my third main point. I will say that now, thought, that we can't know for sure how much a given clone being cut would affect a 100% original character, so it's impossible to argue that. About Fates. People usually get mad when they see 9 Fates reps and compare it to other games, but they are comparing this wrongly. While yes, Fates is mostly considered as a single entity in Fire Emblem by the fanbase and the devs, but for certain purposes and under certain circumstances, Fates is being considered as two mostly individual entities: Birthright and Conquest. What separates these two paths in Fates is also what led to their "separation" under certain lenses in Warriors: Plot and Cast. I will address the "Plot" bit on my second major point (as well as why "Revelation" isn't being considered here), so let's move on to "Cast". Corrin ties BR and CQ together, but the four royals don't stand to "represent" both main paths. They represent the path they are playable one, so much that we have separate Hoshidan and Nohrian trailers for this game. While they could've done otherwise, the decision to market this game as a "Fates game", it comes with the unspoken condition that both the BR and CQ audience need to be marketed to. Not everyone played both paths, or REV, and undeniably both paths hold their weight as full-fledged entries in FE (with 27 unique characters and 33 unique battles between both routes, plus the shared content). While you might hate that other games were overlooked because of this... regarding roster, Fates has the weight of two games. The royals are antagonists in one route, yes. But the other route is the one they were playable at. Where the players got to know the characters, adventure with and even romance them. This is not like the pre-3DS era where supports are a pain to get and villains have a lot of involvement with the plot and are more meaningful than most of the playable cast (The GBA games in particular). It's just not the same, besides Takumi and Elise. ...So considering Fates as split games, this is the roster: 4 BR +Corrin 4 CQ 3 SD 6 FEA 3 FEW (Anna is from FEW this time) 2 other games. Discouting clones: 2 BR +Corrin 3 CQ 4 FEA 3 SD (Pegasus slot goes here) 1 FEW 1 Other games. (And again, Lyn totally stole Navarre's slot. Remember that!) The balance isn't as skewed if you think of it like that. ... 2- They aren't particularly important in Fates ->Azura, however, is. This is where we'll talk about the "Story" point I mentioned early. Warriors really incorporates the whole Hoshido vs Nohr theme. The families are being pitted against each other, and IIRC even come from the pre-split Chapter 6. Slightly returning to the above point, this is also a reason to have all the royals from both sides, as the families are acting separately in ways that just two royals would make the story weak, and the gameplay extremely limited (more on that with major point 3). But regarding Azura, it also makes it much harder to incorporate her in the plot, because Azura is ONLY connected to BR/CQ via plot devices tied to REV. Corrin's dragon rampage, Valla, Anankos, and Garon... none of that is relevant in Warriors, and the context they built for this game makes her lose importance. It also makes REV lose weight as a consideration for the plot or justification for a smaller Fates cast that only represents it. The other royals, in BR and CQ, limit themselves to Hoshido vs Nohr in their effect on the story of the main paths. They are, thus, more suited for the game they tried to make than Azura, who like Walhart, necessitates certain plot points to be in play to make sense in the story. While Fates is light on the plot department, the three characters I'm defending here had enough roles that they aren't farfetched choices. Sakura has a chapter devoted to her in CQ and plenty of small moments o importance in BR (and is the first Royal to trust Corrin in REV...), while Elise is key to early CQ and late BR. Hinoka has low plot involvement beyond two boss fights in CQ, yeah... but people ignore how she is the one responsible for giving the emotional edge to the choice of siding with Hoshido. Ryoma and Sakura are happy to see you but they are too stoic/shy to really show much. Takumi hates your guts. Mikoto died. Hinoka, though? She breaks down crying on you, hugs you, and declares she spent her whole life training with the naginata to one day rescue you. It's a fairly important role she shares with Mikoto, and it's a pity neither are acknowledged for it. ...Azura could even have been something like Lyn, Anna and Celica, for the Fates history map. But do note, those three are clones. They weren't a priority. Azura fills an unclonable niche, and isn't plot relevant to Warriors. It's a weird position to be in. So you guys can't say I'm just making excuses, I will add that they could've went full Conquest here. We are using F!Corrin anyways--make her choose Nohr, and have Azura be the counterweight for Hoshido. It does become weird to have her at odds with Corrin, though... As an aside, there are two smaller points about Azura specifically that people forget... a) Incorporating her sing ability in the context of a Warriors game, b) Animating her hair. I'm not kidding here, I pity whoever is in charge of animating Azura. Fates didn't care in battle, and the Azura cutscenes were slow and made deliberate zoom outs to get around it. Warriors doesn't have that luxury. (Try reclassing Azura to Master Ninja one of these days if you don't think it can be an issue). ... 3- They are clones -> Two of them of Fates characters Finally, let's talk gameplay. I think all of us by now know the basic benefits of semi-clones by now, (which is what we have so far, on the playable side): we have more people happy their favorites got in, more units to use in the plot and supports, the devs have an easier time with a beefier AND cheaper, easier-to-make roster... at the expense of the similarity between pairs of characters, or even trios. This game, however, has a more meaningful factor for clones than most others, even compared to series outside of Warriors. I've been reading and watching a lot of stuff about this game lately. Reviews, impressions, gameplay demonstrations, comments... and two things stand out. a) The balance. We don't have obviously broken or crappy units in this game. I've heard peggies take a while to get used to, but everyone has a reasonably high base competence level. b) Party composition. Its very important to account for enemy classes and weapons, to have your four units be suited for the battle in general, the individual role you want the character to play, and the possibility of unknown enemy types joining the battle later on. It's for these two purposes that I think the semi-clones benefited the game a lot. The balance point is easy: a basic semi-clone advantage from less intensive playtesting and simply giving the devs more time to do that in the first place. But the major point here is the party composition. Things like staff access or different stat spreads (mainly, the ability to use Magic weapons), give them very different purposes as units than the original, much like how these people work in a real FE game. Compare Sakura and Takumi. Sakura can use staves, meaning she's more suited to fighting in areas you need to protect something/someone, and her magic bow utility means she can bust armors, fighters and cavaliers once you give it to her. Takumi on the other hand is the offense to Sakura's defense, suited to pressing against the enemy army and wiping our mages and enemy healers, on top of being better for all-purpose fighting. This is also why it's unlikely these Fates characters would become SD clones. There isn't as much variety in stats and weapon choice simply because we didn't have as many staff classes, or classes capable of using magic weapons. Back then, the differences were more focused on stats that simply don't translate as well to Warriors's real-time action gameplay, like SPD or DEF. (never mind simple factors like the SD cast lacking in characterization and especially popularity...) Personal skills and skills gained from supports also add to differences in what characters gets what task in what party. Another thing to consider is how they decided to incorporate permadeath in the story mode. Again, like in a real FE, they need to give us options so we aren't screwed if one unit dies and becomes unplayable for the rest of the story. This is part of why I'm not that mad we have 3 peggies even though the differences are lower: flying units have critical arrow weakness and are the most likely to die. Cordelia was tacked on because of plot, but it has that advantage. The clone that breaks this rule, Lucina, was a forced inclusion by ninty/IS. I doubt Lyn will end up very different than Navarre either. And this is why I'm fine with semi-clones in this game. Don't get me wrong, having unique movesets for everyone would be amazing, yes. But with this roster size, it's not very realistic. Sadly, KT likely wasn't given enough time and resources. Still, if you bundle the clones with their originals, we have 15 unique movesets, which is a reasonable starting roster for a musou that wasn't given the budget of Hyrule Warriors, since Zelda is a bigger franchise and all. (Plus, there's Oboro's currently unplayable moveset!) ... In closing, maybe there were better ways to accomplish what KT set out to do, and yes, they could've done an entirely different plot... and game. But I think people that are disappointed with the roster should be a little more open to accepting what we have here. This is not as purposeless and lazy as many of you claim. From all the feedback FEW has gotten, I think we have an extremely solid game here. ...But it does suck we didn't get ground lancers. Edited October 10, 2017 by eclipse I think I nuked those boxes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 I might be able to do something about those gray boxes. Want me to try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guedesbrawl Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 20 minutes ago, eclipse said: I might be able to do something about those gray boxes. Want me to try? That would be amazing, please do! I'm sure some people might have hit the back key simply because of the grey boxes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said: That would be amazing, please do! I'm sure some people might have hit the back key simply because of the grey boxes... Gimme a bit to iron out the bullet points, and that should do it. I hate the captcha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guedesbrawl Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 13 minutes ago, eclipse said: Gimme a bit to iron out the bullet points, and that should do it. I hate the captcha. They are gone! thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wissenschaft Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) I seriously doubt any of the NPC characters in the game, like Navarre were ever planned to be playable in the base game. If anything, Navarre is likely to be a clone of Lyn since Lyn was made playable first. I'd have prefer Celica being made a Mage with some sword attacks in her moveset since we could use more weapon diversity. But then again, the WTA isn't a big deal in the game, its much more focused on effective weapons. Falchion vs dragons, Magic vs Knights, Bows vs flyers, etc. Edited October 11, 2017 by wissenschaft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guedesbrawl Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 1 hour ago, wissenschaft said: I seriously doubt any of the NPC characters in the game, like Navarre were ever planned to be playable in the base game. If anything, Navarre is likely to be a clone of Lyn since Lyn was made playable first. I'd have prefer Celica being made a Mage with some sword attacks in her moveset since we could use more weapon diversity. But then again, the WTA isn't a big deal in the game, its much more focused on effective weapons. Falchion vs dragons, Magic vs Knights, Bows vs flyers, etc. Given that a) Navarre is in the plot when Lyn isn't anywhere b) Navarre has a known depiction of him dual-wielding, Lyn has none c) Lyn was said to be forced by IS/Nintendo d) Navarre has the same moveset as Lyn, bar the unused musous we can't see in a NPC e) There was dialogue found for certain characters like Leo speaking to Navarre, as a "boss banter when player reaches keep" kind of thing. It's rather easy to see what went on with those two here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wissenschaft Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) Ok, never mind. LOL. Overall, I'll take Lyn over Navarre anyway. Edited October 11, 2017 by wissenschaft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChibiToastExplosion Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Just wanted to say, that this was well written! Hopefully Navarre will be free DLC, because, if he got cut as playable for Lyn, I will have a reason to start disliking Lyn and I don't want that. I'm happy she's in for her fans, but if she took Navarre away legit I would be pissed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomalocaris Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 At launch, Hyrule Warriors had three NPC villains in the form of Cia, Volga, and Wizzro. They only appeared as enemies but they had perfectly functioning movesets, specials, and context-sensitive dialogue. They were made playable in a free update about a month after launch. Our four NPCs (excluding Team Gharnef-Archetype who will probably stay unplayable) fit all the same hallmarks as those three, so I'd be rather shocked if they WEREN'T made playable in a free update. The only question is when; Hyrule Warriors' villains were made playable in the free update that coincided with the first paid DLC pack, which included no new characters of its own. We might see Niles, Oboro, Navarre, and Owain released separately, at the same time their respective DLC packs launch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 36 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said: Given that a) Navarre is in the plot when Lyn isn't anywhere b) Navarre has a known depiction of him dual-wielding, Lyn has none c) Lyn was said to be forced by IS/Nintendo d) Navarre has the same moveset as Lyn, bar the unused musous we can't see in a NPC e) There was dialogue found for certain characters like Leo speaking to Navarre, as a "boss banter when player reaches keep" kind of thing. It's rather easy to see what went on with those two here. A. Oboro, Niles, and Owain are also in the plot but not playable. The devs said this would happen. B. So what? She has two swords, so they went with a dual-wielding style. C. No. Stop saying this. Everyone. It was never said that anyone was "forced" by Nintendo/IS. Why does everyone so badly need someone to blame? D. And there are other clone-type characters, too. This means nothing. E. I believe this was found for the other non-playables, as well. Navarre was not "cut" for Lyn. Why would he have been? There are already clones playable in the game. Why would they just leave Navarre out if they had wanted him playable? This is a major assumption you're making and I don't buy it at all. As for the rest of your post, all I have to say is that you're likely looking way deeper into it than the devs did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YotsuMaboroshi Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, Florete said: Navarre was not "cut" for Lyn. Why would he have been? There are already clones playable in the game. Why would they just leave Navarre out if they had wanted him playable? This is a major assumption you're making and I don't buy it at all. If IS requested Lyn and they didn't have the time in the release schedule to finish up and polish both of them, KT would probably prioritize the request from IS. Companies don't have an infinite amount of time to work on things, so original intentions may get re-prioritized lower. You can't assume that just because he isn't playable now means he was never intended to be playable. They did say that some characters would appear but not be playable. Whether this refers to the NPC plot gang, or to other character plans is something we don't know. It's possible that that statement was made at the time they decided to stop devoting time to finishing on the NPC plot gang, or that it originally was intended for the sorceror trio only, or for some other characters that they found they couldn't add from their original plans. As you mentioned, there is incomplete data found for other characters besides Navarre. The fact that it is there at all means there were plans at some point to include them as playable. Whether they are scrapped entirely, or were left to be finished up after the game was out for release is not something we do not currently know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 1 minute ago, YotsuMaboroshi said: You can't assume that just because he isn't playable now means he was never intended to be playable. This isn't wrong, but it's safer to accept what we see in the game than to believe these conspiracy theories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YotsuMaboroshi Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Just now, Florete said: This isn't wrong, but it's safer to accept what we see in the game than to believe these conspiracy theories. And what we see in the game files is evidence that certain characters have playable attributes (like dialog and supports), but are not currently playable. This all but states the characters were, at some point, intended to be playable and had to be cut (most likely due to time constraints and roster 'balancing'). As for why the files are still there, they could have been left there because they will be made playable in the future, or they could have been left there because removing them would cause more trouble than it was worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 1 minute ago, YotsuMaboroshi said: And what we see in the game files is evidence that certain characters have playable attributes (like dialog and supports), but are not currently playable. This all but states the characters were, at some point, intended to be playable and had to be cut (most likely due to time constraints and roster 'balancing'). As for why the files are still there, they could have been left there because they will be made playable in the future, or they could have been left there because removing them would cause more trouble than it was worth. As you yourself said, it may be because they're planned as post-launch updates. But let's assume for a moment that Navarre was indeed planned to be playable in the base game and didn't make it. It's entirely possible that the reason has nothing to do with Lyn. The two cases don't need to be related just because they have the same moveset. That's all I want to say. People are going so far with assumptions they're treating them as fact, and it's completely ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulWeaver Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 19 minutes ago, Florete said: C. No. Stop saying this. Everyone. It was never said that anyone was "forced" by Nintendo/IS. Why does everyone so badly need someone to blame? In this instance, I believe part of what happened is they said in an interview they were originally thinking they weren't going to put Lucina into the game, but either Nintendo or IS came to them and said "Please put Lucina in the game" and people heard that and got mad and slightly overstated things and it just spread, then it turned out Lyn and Celica were also requested and that only made it worse. Also, it's much easier to deal with something that you didn't want to deal with when you can say it's someone else's fault. Anyways, OP, great job giving a defense that looked more intelligent than most of what I see outside of the Forest, it's nice to see such a well-thought look at the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YotsuMaboroshi Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said: In this instance, I believe part of what happened is they said in an interview they were originally thinking they weren't going to put Lucina into the game, but either Nintendo or IS came to them and said "Please put Lucina in the game" and people heard that and got mad and slightly overstated things and it just spread, then it turned out Lyn and Celica were also requested and that only made it worse. Also, it's much easier to deal with something that you didn't want to deal with when you can say it's someone else's fault. Anyways, OP, great job giving a defense that looked more intelligent than most of what I see outside of the Forest, it's nice to see such a well-thought look at the subject. Let's be fair, a request from the IP holder is, more or less, politely forcing a character in that wasn't being considered (or in Lucina's case, was on the chopping block). You don't generally ignore a request from the people you're borrowing from, as it's bad business. This does not, in any way, imply that KT was resentful of this, disagreed with the request, or was given an ultimatum to include them (which isn't something we'll know, as that sort of thing isn't going to be discussed in interviews when they want the game to be successful). IS is directly responsible for Lucina, Celica, and Lyn being in the game, regardless of how the politics of the decision played out. This is known, without a doubt, because we were told that they were requested. In a more general sense, IS also responsible for the class movesets due to requesting Lucina. The interview about Lucina said that KT ultimately resolved to include Lucina, despite being a clone, because her stance was different from Chrom's (and obviously, they also made her musous different), and that this allowed them to take another look at characters they could try and include. People that don't like these decisions will use this to throw blame, but that doesn't change the fact that IS is responsible for the inclusion of these three characters. Rather than argue about the term used, it's better to simply ignore it unless the argument tries to elaborate on it for some reason. Edited October 11, 2017 by YotsuMaboroshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulWeaver Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, YotsuMaboroshi said: Let's be fair, a request from the IP holder is, more or less, politely forcing a character in that wasn't being considered Eh, I call that forcing too, I'm just trying to explain how it was only forced because of that, not because they went and said put Lucina in or we'll pull the plug on the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guedesbrawl Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 12 hours ago, Florete said: A. Oboro, Niles, and Owain are also in the plot but not playable. The devs said this would happen. B. So what? She has two swords, so they went with a dual-wielding style. C. No. Stop saying this. Everyone. It was never said that anyone was "forced" by Nintendo/IS. Why does everyone so badly need someone to blame? D. And there are other clone-type characters, too. This means nothing. E. I believe this was found for the other non-playables, as well. Navarre was not "cut" for Lyn. Why would he have been? There are already clones playable in the game. Why would they just leave Navarre out if they had wanted him playable? This is a major assumption you're making and I don't buy it at all. As for the rest of your post, all I have to say is that you're likely looking way deeper into it than the devs did. If you think I'm looking at this too deeply, mroe than the devs, you don't get much of game design. Most of those thigns are concerns and issues that would pop up mid-development. and the reason they had to drop one of them was because of the extra work needed. Clones aren't clones: they are semi-clones with unique stuff like support conversations and musous to add. On top of this, Navarre and Lyn have little to nothing to set them apart stat-wise for Warriors, seeing as STR and MAG are really the only defining differences clone pairs can have. Then there's the issue of Navarre having lower demand than Lyn--forced by IS/ninty and you know it---and being yet another swordsman. As you can see, with Lyn being forced, Navarre adds barely anything to be worth the effort when they clearly didn't manage to complete the game in the deadline they were given (see comments about on-foot lancers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 20 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said: --forced by IS/ninty and you know it--- If you're actually going to take this attitude, you're clearly not worth taking seriously in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guedesbrawl Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Florete said: If you're actually going to take this attitude, you're clearly not worth taking seriously in the first place. KT already went on record about how Is forced their hand in regards to Lucina and other popular characters. Lyn is popular and makes NO SENSE in this game, which set out to be a SD+FEA+BR+CQ game. I admit this isn't a 100% sure thing--it's why i said "working with the assumption"--but it's by far the most likely scenario here. You are willingly ignoring a bunch of circumstantial evidence that's on favor of this conclusion, while having nothing to support the opposite conclusion. Edited October 11, 2017 by guedesbrawl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 27 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said: KT already went on record about how Is forced their hand in regards to Lucina and other popular characters. Lyn is popular and makes NO SENSE in this game, which set out to be a SD+FEA+BR+CQ game. I admit this isn't a 100% sure thing--it's why i said "working with the assumption"--but it's by far the most likely scenario here. You are willingly ignoring a bunch of circumstantial evidence that's on favor of this conclusion, while having nothing to support the opposite conclusion. They never said they were forced to add anyone. They said it was suggested. For all we know KT wanted to add some bonus characters and actually asked who they should add. There also could have been other suggestions that KT declined. There are so many ways this could have gone but people just want to treat Nintendo/IS like schoolyard bullies. They never said it would be only those 3 games, just that those would be the focus. No one, myself included, thought it meant anything at the time, but it's what they said. There was always room for a couple bonus characters. Nothing? How about what's in the damn game? You're the one coming up with conspiracy theories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guedesbrawl Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) You really think they can just deny the suggestion, huh? i guess there's nothing more for us to discuss then. Edited October 11, 2017 by guedesbrawl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wissenschaft Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) Why would anyone want Navarre over Lyn (a way more ironic character especially for western fans) anyway? Could you imagine the reverse? "We were going to put in Lyn last minute but decided on Navarre instead" Outrage. lol Edited October 12, 2017 by wissenschaft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminario Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'm glad someone finally went really in-depth over these subjects. You really dealt with all the points well. Does anyone actually know how much time it takes to create a clone compared to a unique character? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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