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In Defense of Sakura, Hinoka and Elise - Roster and Semi-clones vs Balance, Options and Story


guedesbrawl
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23 hours ago, Florete said:

B. So what? She has two swords, so they went with a dual-wielding style.

You don't really think it is a coincidence, do you? I mean, leaving aside if he was going to be playable (which isn't hard to believe having 3 SD characters), the moveset was clearly made with him in mind, they can't simply go dual-wielding style if there is no dual-wielding in the first place.

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6 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

You really think they can just deny the suggestion, huh? i guess there's nothing more for us to discuss then.

I think we don't know enough about the situation to take speculation and assumptions as absolute fact. Like I said, there are many different ways the situation could have gone.

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It's clear that IS forced Koei to add certain characters. Sure, they said that IS "suggested" some characters, but are you really going to tell the consumers and interviewers that "Yeah, IS forced us to put Lucina in the game." Yeah, no. If they did...bye-bye potential sequel.

I've been convinced since they were revealed that Lyn and Celica took the spaces of the NPCs, especially Navarre. There's too much evidence pointing towards it, and it sucks because I'd have rather have had Navarre over Lyn because she looks so out of place. I love Celica, but I feel like SoV representation should have been added through DLC.

But hey-ho, what do I know? Just gotta wait and see if the NPC crew is playable in the future.

Edited by Lau
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On 10/11/2017 at 9:38 AM, Florete said:

They never said they were forced to add anyone. They said it was suggested. For all we know KT wanted to add some bonus characters and actually asked who they should add. There also could have been other suggestions that KT declined. There are so many ways this could have gone but people just want to treat Nintendo/IS like schoolyard bullies.

They never said it would be only those 3 games, just that those would be the focus. No one, myself included, thought it meant anything at the time, but it's what they said. There was always room for a couple bonus characters.

Nothing? How about what's in the damn game? You're the one coming up with conspiracy theories.

You're wrong dude. Intelligent Systems is the entire REASON Lyn and Celica got in the game. Basically confirmed by Koei themselves where they also revealed their intentions to hold Roy and Ike back.

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17 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

You're wrong dude. Intelligent Systems is the entire REASON Lyn and Celica got in the game. Basically confirmed by Koei themselves where they also revealed their intentions to hold Roy and Ike back.

What you've said doesn't prove me wrong.

In fact, you haven't really said anything at all.

Edited by Florete
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All @Florete is saying is to not speak in absolutes until there is direct confirmation.  Yes, there is most definitely evidence that points to it, but until then, its just evidence, not proof.

As much as I agree on the notion on Lyn & Navarre, I'm at the point where I'm too burnt out on roster discussions throughout to really care anymore and just want the damn game already to take it for what it is. 

Save all your energy for when dlc starts rolling in

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  • 3 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Peaceful_User said:

People who deny that Lyn and Celica were forced didn't read the reddit post where Koei said it themselves...

 

Apparently, neither did you.

Didn't know Koei posts on Reddit.

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6 hours ago, Florete said:

Apparently, neither did you.

Didn't know Koei posts on Reddit.

Sounds like you didn't read past the bolded words which is absurdly foolish. The reddit post isn't Koei's. It's a translation of what they said in the official book guide (whatever that is?).

Like, it wasn't even one line, would it have really killed you?

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On 10/12/2017 at 3:26 AM, Lau said:

It's clear that IS forced Koei to add certain characters. Sure, they said that IS "suggested" some characters, but are you really going to tell the consumers and interviewers that "Yeah, IS forced us to put Lucina in the game." Yeah, no. If they did...bye-bye potential sequel.

Not sure why. If anything that shows KT had bad priorities to cut the third most important character from that game.

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28 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Not sure why. If anything that shows KT had bad priorities to cut the third most important character from that game.

It's 100% understandable.

Lucina, from a gameplay standpoint, adds literally nothing to the game since unlike Takumi/Sakura or other clone pairs, she is just as STR oriented as Chrom and doesn't have the MAG to run the switch stats skill (Topsy Turvy i believe). She could've been an unlockable alt costume like M!Corrin and F!Robin, but no.

Not only we got a useless clone, she reps a class we already had and is yet another sword.

 

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53 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Not sure why. If anything that shows KT had bad priorities to cut the third most important character from that game.

Yeah but KT already cut Fates's second most important character for an even more arbitrary reason than "she would just be a clone".

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10 hours ago, Peaceful_User said:

People who deny that Lyn and Celica were forced didn't read the reddit post where Koei said it themselves...

 

the post doesn't say they were "forced" it just says it was their idea

for all we know they could've said before the game was announced that lyn should be in 

and taking into account this interview, the dual wielding style was designed for lyn, not navarre

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11 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

It's 100% understandable.

Lucina, from a gameplay standpoint, adds literally nothing to the game since unlike Takumi/Sakura or other clone pairs, she is just as STR oriented as Chrom and doesn't have the MAG to run the switch stats skill (Topsy Turvy i believe). She could've been an unlockable alt costume like M!Corrin and F!Robin, but no.

Not only we got a useless clone, she reps a class we already had and is yet another sword.

They could have done more, they just didn't. Besides, gameplay is irrelevant here. She is a main character of Awakening and to not include her is just dumb. Not to mention is one of the most well liked characters in the series. That argument might work with a character like Cordelia, but not including a main character is ridiculous.

Edit: yes, and looking at it, they gave her the short end of the stick stat wise too (though luck is quite useful for several skills so not totally). I just can't shake the feeling that KT kept messing her up on purpose.

11 hours ago, Lightchao42 said:

Yeah but KT already cut Fates's second most important character for an even more arbitrary reason than "she would just be a clone".

That was stupid too. I really don't have much faith in KT's ability to prioritize.

Edited by Arthur97
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More like what, a unique moveset for Lucina? Please. She deserves no more than either Chrom's or Marth's. And of all the things to waste a new moveset on, it shouldn't have been a sword user. Especially one that does nothing unique (Chrom is basic sowrdplay, MArth is fencing, Corrin has dragon stuff, Ryoma has electricity, Navarre/Lyn has dual blades, Xander has a pony).

 

Edited by guedesbrawl
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12 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

More like what, a unique moveset for Lucina? Please. She deserves no more than either Chrom's or Marth's. And of all the things to waste a new moveset on, it shouldn't have been a sword user. Especially one that does nothing unique (Chrom is basic sowrdplay, MArth is fencing, Corrin has dragon stuff, Ryoma has electricity, Navarre/Lyn has dual blades, Xander has a pony).

 

Okay, you sound a bit bitter, but they could have at least given her unique charges. Even barring that, they could have given her an edge in some more stats. Whether you like her or not, saying she doesn't deserve to be here is like saying Luigi shouldn't be in Smash.

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5 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

Sounds like you didn't read past the bolded words which is absurdly foolish. The reddit post isn't Koei's. It's a translation of what they said in the official book guide (whatever that is?).

Like, it wasn't even one line, would it have really killed you?

 

3 hours ago, unique said:

the post doesn't say they were "forced" it just says it was their idea

for all we know they could've said before the game was announced that lyn should be in 

and taking into account this interview, the dual wielding style was designed for lyn, not navarre

^

Of course I read the whole thing, I cut the quote to not needlessly lengthen my post. The "Koei posts on Reddit" thing was a joke because of how the post was worded. You're just reading what you want to into that very basic summary. Based on the above linked interview, I made this post in another topic and it is quite fitting here:

On 10/21/2017 at 9:29 PM, Florete said:

You are actually just choosing not to believe words straight from the developers mouth at this point.

Hayashi: Yes. While we were in a meeting deciding characters with Nintendo and Intelligent Systems, there were talks of “Please put in Lyn”.

"In a meeting deciding characters" suggests it was about the roster in general, not just about Lyn, meaning the final roster likely hadn't been finalized, meaning Lyn was decided relatively early on.

Hayashi: Nintendo Direct being shown simultaneously worldwide is the big factor. Even so, the first Fire Emblem to be released overseas was GBA’s Blazing Blade, in which Lyn was one of the protagonists. So Lyn is to foreigners as Marth is to the Japanese

This is something I was already speculating: Lyn was chosen because she's basically the series' Marth for westerners.

Usuda: Because there’s that illustration from Awakening, it might be very possible to give her the dual-wield setup.

Her Awakening art, which has her with two swords, is brought up as a possible point of inspiration. They also mention that they bring up the idea of her dual-wielding to IS.

On the other hand, forget for a moment that Lyn exists at all. Why Navarre? Why not Ogma? Ogma makes more sense in context and I'm pretty sure he's also more popular. Well, there was no one in the given roster Ogma could realistically copy.

But Navarre could. Navarre could copy Lyn.

And when did they say Lyn was the last character added?

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9 hours ago, unique said:

the post doesn't say they were "forced" it just says it was their idea

for all we know they could've said before the game was announced that lyn should be in 

and taking into account this interview, the dual wielding style was designed for lyn, not navarre

Actually, they never say that. They say that they came up with a dual sword style to stand out from the other one sword styles, and then say that Lyn "just happened to fit the bill", which makes it sound like the style wasn't designed for her originally.

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9 minutes ago, NeonZ said:

Actually, they never say that. They say that they came up with a dual sword style to stand out from the other one sword styles, and then say that Lyn "just happened to fit the bill", which makes it sound like the style wasn't designed for her originally.

it is possible that the dual wielding style was made before they added lyn, but even then, the phrase "By doing that, we distinguished her from the other characters." implies that she was the first it was given to

maybe the style wasn't made with a specific character in mind but the finished version was definitely intended for lyn

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She's the only one that has the style in the finished game, so, yeah, in the end it was with her and made her unique. But their wording there strongly suggests it wasn't originally designed with her in mind.

Edited by NeonZ
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2 hours ago, NeonZ said:

She's the only one that has the style in the finished game, so, yeah, in the end it was with her and made her unique. But their wording there strongly suggests it wasn't originally designed with her in mind.

ND: And this time, Lyn is using a dual-wielding style. Is this because you want to emphasize the action more than [her portrayal in] the original work?

Usuda: That’s right. Even so, there are already a lot of sword characters, so we thought to add some variations with a dual-wielding style. Lyn just happened to fit the bill since she has two swords: Sol Katti and Mani Katti, so we proposed that to Intelligent Systems.

If you really want to split hairs, you can argue that the wording implies they wanted a dual-wielding style regardless of Lyn, but the context definitely suggests they ended up designing it around Lyn.

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Not really, Lucina's whole point is that she's a Chrom clone in-universe. It's why the cutscene of them fighting in the Ferox Arena even exists. And it's why she shouldn't have been given a slot.

But they could've give her more MAG, i suppose. I feel like this Lucina HAS to be SUlly's or the Villager's, because the other moms all do magic or give her that.

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6 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

Not really, Lucina's whole point is that she's a Chrom clone in-universe. It's why the cutscene of them fighting in the Ferox Arena even exists. And it's why she shouldn't have been given a slot.

But they could've give her more MAG, i suppose. I feel like this Lucina HAS to be SUlly's or the Villager's, because the other moms all do magic or give her that.

You'll justify Sakura and Elise based on plot, but not Lucina? Similarities aside, she is an important character to Awakening and deserved a slot based on that alone. She deserved a slot more than both of them combined whether you like it or not.

There's a difference from being a clone and being trained by someone. If trained by someone, odds are you won't fight exactly like them , and she doesn't in game (she uses stabbing motions over Chrom's slashes at times for instance). The cutscene is a cinematic meant to draw a parallel, but a few moves would not represent the whole of how someone fights.

Though this is probably all moot since you seem unwilling to listen to reason.

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I mentioned plot for the little sisters because people completely discredit what they did for Fates. It's not the "one and only reason".

Sakura just blows Lucina out of the water in terms of value as a character slot between being able to run on MAG and use staves, whereas Lucina has nothing worthwhile in her kit to make you REALLY want her over Chrom assuming they are at equal circumstances. Gameplay is important, and since Lucina adds nothing to it, she could've been a alt costume. Elise has similar things going for her but reps a completely different class tree than Leo to compensate for not having a STR gimmick (which Leo actually does better, even if that better is crap regardless)

Edited by guedesbrawl
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