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In Defense of Sakura, Hinoka and Elise - Roster and Semi-clones vs Balance, Options and Story


guedesbrawl
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2 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

I mentioned plot for the little sisters because people completely discredit what they did for Fates. It's not the "one and only reason".

Sakura just blows Lucina out of the water in terms of value as a character slot between being able to run on MAG and use staves, whereas Lucina has nothing worthwhile in her kit to make you REALLY want her over Chrom assuming they are at equal circumstances. Gameplay is important, and since Lucina adds nothing to it, she could've been a alt costume. Elise has similar things going for her but reps a completely different class tree than Leo to compensate for not having a STR gimmick (which Leo actually does better, even if that better is crap regardless)

But gameplay is not all. Frankly, it's just a bad idea to not include your third most important character, especially when that character is the most liked from the game. An alt costume would have been nothing but insulting. Besides, who cares in a warriors game if you can flip their magic and strength? It's not that big of a difference. Yay, you can give some of them topsey turvey, but, guess what? They're still clones and they still play the same with marginal differences. If anything, Lucina's much better luck means she gets better use out of luck based skills so she does have a niche if you want to be technical, but it's all so minuscule. 

If you don't like Lucina, that's your prerogative, but saying she should have been an alt is like saying Luigi should have been an alt in Smash. Did he add a lot to gameplay? Nope. Was he an inferior Mario clone. Yep. Does that mean he should not be there as the number two to the king of video games? Absolutely not. And he has since come into his own a bit. Only with Lucina, she beats out the original in terms of popularity. Argue all you want, but a balance is necessary between gameplay and things that just need to be done. This is one of them. And, again, they could have handled it better either through stats or giving her more unique moves, but at the end of the day, she is popular and important and should be there. You have to take things other than gameplay into account.

Edited by Arthur97
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2 hours ago, Arthur97 said:

You'll justify Sakura and Elise based on plot, but not Lucina? Similarities aside, she is an important character to Awakening and deserved a slot based on that alone. She deserved a slot more than both of them combined whether you like it or not.

There's a difference from being a clone and being trained by someone. If trained by someone, odds are you won't fight exactly like them , and she doesn't in game (she uses stabbing motions over Chrom's slashes at times for instance). The cutscene is a cinematic meant to draw a parallel, but a few moves would not represent the whole of how someone fights.

Though this is probably all moot since you seem unwilling to listen to reason.

Given that the game's out, this doesn't really matter anymore, but for the sake of discussion, I'll bite. Does that point still apply when said person that trained you is also your father? It wouldn't be a stretch to say that she inherited his fighting style. After all, wasn't Ike the same in that regard, hence the big deal between him and the Black Knight?

Also, to be frank, said "different" animations are taken and/or inspired directly from Marth. Important or no, she's not very original in that aspect to warrant her own from having to take after two very different people (in both Smash and Awakening, you have Marth. For this, it's Chrom).

Edited by Motendra
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1 hour ago, Motendra said:

Given that the game's out, this doesn't really matter anymore, but for the sake of discussion, I'll bite. Does that point still apply when said person that trained you is also your father? It wouldn't be a stretch to say that she inherited his fighting style. After all, wasn't Ike the same in that regard, hence the big deal between him and the Black Knight?

Also, to be frank, said "different" animations are taken and/or inspired directly from Marth. Important or no, she's not very original in that aspect to warrant her own from having to take after two very different people (in both Smash and Awakening, you have Marth. For this, it's Chrom).

It does when he dies when she's still young. Besides, her tendency to stab and her default stance indicate more of a fencing influence in her style. She says she was trained by her father, and clearly she was at some point...somehow, but after he died, she apparently picked up the rest elsewhere.

Uh, I'm talking about her combat animations in Awakening. For example, their duel strike assist. Chrom slashes, Lucina stabs. Critical hit, Lucina spins in the air while Chrom goes for a direct overhead jumping slash.second his in a row, Chrom jumps up and comes down while Lucina does a follow up stab. If anything, Marth was stealing from her in Awakening by having her moves copy and pasted over him.

Ideally, she should probably be somewhere between Marth and Chrom.

Edited by Arthur97
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10 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

It does when he dies when she's still young. Besides, her tendency to stab and her default stance indicate more of a fencing influence in her style. She says she was trained by her father, and clearly she was at some point...somehow, but after he died, she apparently picked up the rest elsewhere.

Uh, I'm talking about her combat animations in Awakening. For example, their duel strike assist. Chrom slashes, Lucina stabs. Critical hit, Lucina spins in the air while Chrom goes for a direct overhead jumping slash.second his in a row, Chrom jumps up and comes down while Lucina does a follow up stab. If anything, Marth was stealing from her in Awakening by having her moves copy and pasted over him.

Ideally, she should probably be somewhere between Marth and Chrom.

So then you're saying she somehow replicated Marth's swordplay

Yes, those animations in Awakening are literally from Marth, as I just said. If we're using conjecture here, like you are in regards to her fighting style, Lucy's critical hit could very well be a variation of Marth's forward smash, just like her stance being a variation to his counter stance already is.

 

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8 minutes ago, Motendra said:

So then you're saying she somehow replicated Marth's swordplay

Yes, those animations in Awakening are literally from Marth, as I just said. If we're using conjecture here, like you are in regards to her fighting style, Lucy's critical hit could very well be a variation of Marth's forward smash, just like her stance being a variation to his counter stance already is.

 

I think you're reaching with that critical hit thing and she would have had no real way to know how he fought (and does the same thing with lances). It wasn't what I meant, but whatever. In any case she should be a blend of something (yes, Marth is a fencer so I guess if she used that it would in a sense be emulating him meaning Nintendo gets their fake out and it actually makes a little sense) with some improvisation which in some form or fashion would make her unique since she doesn't emulate Chrom 1 for 1, but neither does she Marth (though I'm still not convinced their form when they go for the lunge is the same; I would need to compare directly, and, no, Smash does not count).

Edited by Arthur97
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2 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

I think you're reaching with that critical hit thing and she would have had no real way to know how he fought (and does the same thing with lances). It wasn't what I meant, but whatever. In any case she should be a blend of something (yes, Marth is a fencer so I guess if she used that it would in a sense be emulating him meaning Nintendo gets their fake out and it actually makes a little sense) with some improvisation which in some form or fashion would make her unique since she doesn't emulate Chrom 1 for 1, but neither does she Marth.

*Shrugs* Mine was no more of a reach than yours, though what really separates them is that she jumps and uses two hands for an otherwise similar motion. The thing is, that whole "improvisation" that you keep bringing up is very much where Chrom's style comes from (rather, that is whats implied from his support with Ryoma), in addition to passed down techniques from House Ylisse.

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45 minutes ago, Motendra said:

*Shrugs* Mine was no more of a reach than yours, though what really separates them is that she jumps and uses two hands for an otherwise similar motion. The thing is, that whole "improvisation" that you keep bringing up is very much where Chrom's style comes from (rather, that is whats implied from his support with Ryoma), in addition to passed down techniques from House Ylisse.

How is mine a reach? She's clearly doing something that Chrom does not, nor does Marth (as a matter of fact, she does not stab for a crit while he does as it's one of the few things he does canonically). And the thing is though, Chrom rarely stabs. He's more blunt force and goes for slashes. Either way, she deviates enough from her father that they could have at least derived some separate charges. 

Also, my original issue was never answered. How would finding out that IS forced Lucina kill the chances of a sequel? A lot of people actually really like her believe it or not, so how would that hurt things?

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51 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

How is mine a reach? She's clearly doing something that Chrom does not, nor does Marth (as a matter of fact, she does not stab for a crit while he does as it's one of the few things he does canonically). And the thing is though, Chrom rarely stabs. He's more blunt force and goes for slashes. Either way, she deviates enough from her father that they could have at least derived some separate charges. 

Also, my original issue was never answered. How would finding out that IS forced Lucina kill the chances of a sequel? A lot of people actually really like her believe it or not, so how would that hurt things?

I'm not just talking about the crit moves, I mean every attack she has, minus perhaps one is either taken directly (from one iteration or another) or inspired by Marth. To get where I'm coming from, you'd have to refer to both Shadow Dragon and Smash to see which inspired what, as some are more obscure than others. That she appears different from Chrom at all is because of her original identity of "Marth", who, for the sake of playing the role, had to take from him. It doesn't have to be exact for it to be there.

As for your original issue... *shrug* You're asking the wrong person. The very notion of one person making or breaking a game sounds absolutely absurd to me

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By Lucina's critical do you mean this animation?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz0GRoHw6EE

Marth did have a running one handed slash critical in FE1 where he also ended up behind the enemy. It's even the basis for his Final Smash animation.

Edited by NeonZ
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4 hours ago, Motendra said:

I'm not just talking about the crit moves, I mean every attack she has, minus perhaps one is either taken directly (from one iteration or another) or inspired by Marth. To get where I'm coming from, you'd have to refer to both Shadow Dragon and Smash to see which inspired what, as some are more obscure than others. That she appears different from Chrom at all is because of her original identity of "Marth", who, for the sake of playing the role, had to take from him. It doesn't have to be exact for it to be there.

As for your original issue... *shrug* You're asking the wrong person. The very notion of one person making or breaking a game sounds absolutely absurd to me

Either way, that means she can take from both and given how utterly different they are, that could make for a different moveset. Besides, the combination of styles could potentially end up as a new style altogether. I think there are even real life examples of that, but I'm not well versed enough in such things to cite one.

4 hours ago, NeonZ said:

By Lucina's critical do you mean this animation?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz0GRoHw6EE

Marth did have a running one handed slash critical in FE1 where he also ended up behind the enemy. It's even the basis for his Final Smash animation.

No, that's Luna (well, Luna+ here). Luna always has them cut through (unless it's ranged) as they are cutting through their defenses (or resistance if it's on a magic user, can't remember if it did that in Awakening for sure though). Her actual critical animation without skills is different.

Edited by Arthur97
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