Fates: Best in Class (per game)

[The Geek]

I dunno about putting Laslow over Selena.  Sure his personal skill is better, but does it really add that much?  Selena can take a lot more hits (she was one of my best tanks alongside Xander and Camilla) while Laslow struggles a lot.

[Ertrick36]

On 10/10/2017 at 8:07 PM, Mandokarla said:

10/11/17: I FORGOT KIRAGI I'M SORRY. Also, some shifting in the Archer rankings.

You forgot about more than just Kiragi...

Spoiler

Not counting healers, axe users, beasts or samurai, you also forgot:

• Azura (acceptable, given she's a unique unit and thus doesn't really fit anywhere)
• Rhajat
• Percy (you mentioned him, but never placed him for some reason)
• Scarlet (obviously has a short-lived role in Revelation, but it can be much more substantial in BR if you allow it)
• Fuga
• Anna
• Izana

 

Anyway, I now want to do a Revelation run with all the "worst" characters on this list, and a poorly optimized Corrin...

Just to see if they really are that terrible.

Though screw Gunter.  He isn't even worth the stat boosters.

Maybe also do a run with only the top member of each class with maybe some other rules just to see if they can hold their own.  Minus the gen-one royals though, because I kind of already did that.

[Mandokarla]

4 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

You forgot about more than just Kiragi...

  Hide contents

Not counting healers, axe users, beasts or samurai, you also forgot:

• Azura (acceptable, given she's a unique unit and thus doesn't really fit anywhere)
• Rhajat
• Percy (you mentioned him, but never placed him for some reason)
• Scarlet (obviously has a short-lived role in Revelation, but it can be much more substantial in BR if you allow it)
• Fuga
• Anna
• Izana

 

Shit you're right. Where would you put Fuga, Scarlet, and Rhajat? I haven't played BR, so I left Scarlet out because I have no idea how decent she is, and I haven't used the aforementioned trio. I'll add in Anna, Izana, and Percy

[Nobody]

On 12/10/2017 at 2:41 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Which is assuming she can reach someone every turn. And exactly who are you trying to marry her to? The same Niles who I find loses his value way too quickly???

If you think Niles loses value quickly, then you’re simply wrong.

Niles eats ninjas for breakfast, destroys fliers (it’s not like there’s a late game map where 2/3 of the enemies are fliers, many using bows, nope, there’s not), captures invaluable enemies such as rally man and can deal with mages really well despite WTD, and those are all extremely important niches. Sure he can’t go one rounding bulky units like spear masters and oni chieftains but lol why would you try to do that.

@Mandokarlagot ahead of myself because his stubbornness gets on my nerve, but see my edit.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Nobody

[Mandokarla]

15 minutes ago, Nobody said:

If you think Niles loses value quickly, then you don't know anything about fire emblem fates. Sorry.

Do you care to provide an actual argument, or just insult someone else for its own sake? 

Response edit: 

Niles does indeed do those things -- to a point. His strength is horridly low for much of the game, and while his speed is excellent, there comes a point where he fails to ORKO Ninjas (when the Ninja Cave comes around, he might not even double the Master Ninjas -- mine didn't). Flyer counters are nice, but when you get to Hinoka's chapter you could have several other (better) anti-air units: Archer!Mozu, Nina, Anna, Xander might as well be one, I had Kinshi!Shigure and he was plenty. Even Shura, if you didn't take the free boots, can do that.

Regarding capturing units -- I've never found much value in it besides rallyman. There just aren't enemy units that make me think, "Oh yeah, Its worth it to give up one of my party slots for this mook". Aside from rallyman, and maybe Gazak as an excuse to use Aurgelmir. But berserkers are just...meh. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Mandokarla

[Florina's #1 Fan]

On 10/10/2017 at 10:07 PM, Mandokarla said:

Ninjas

3.) Saizo / Asugi -- His best growth is 80% in skill. Ninjas don't have issues hitting things, and lethality frankly is a trash skill that isn't worth using, if given the option to replace (which you wont, no heart seals, remember?). Every one of his other growths are average at best, and fall severely lacking behind the other two ninjas in the stats Ninjas need to be effective. Combine that with a personal skill that is literally only a positive in scrub-casual (phoenix) mode, and Saizo is the weakest ninja of the bunch. Again, we aren't considering seal usage here, even though I've heard he might be a decent Samurai. Asugi's base growths are similar to Saizos, but they might be able to be patched up with a good parent. I'm not sure. 

I diagree here. Kaze has never pulled through for me, his strength isn't enough. Not only that, but Kaze's luck ruins his nice skill. His personal skill has not helped me once. His speed is nice, and occasionally I reclass him and he turns out okay, but reclassing isn't what we're talking about. In his base class, Kaze is not good.

Kagero's skill and luck are poor. I mean, she's an excellent ninja, but unfortunately, her HP and Defense growths mean if she gets hit, she's screwed, and her luck is only 10% higher than Kaze, meaning she doesn't dodge as often as she should either. She is actually the worst, in my opinion, because she dumps everything for strength and speed, so she can't hit accurately, can't be hit without dying, and is locked to shurikens, which means low damage output even with her high strength, meaning there is little reason to care about her high strength.

Saizo has always been my favorite because he's balanced. While Kaze hits like a wet tissue and can't get hurt without instant death, and Kagero is in a class that doesn't allow her to reach full potential because her very high strength is stuck in a class with a low strength cap, not to mention she has awful bulk like Kaze and has more trouble hitting than Kaze does with his crappy luck because both her skill and luck are lower, Saizo has zero accuracy issues, comes with a servicable strength stat, can actually use the Flame Shuriken (he has a magic growth, fun for reclassing, but that's besides the point), and has bulk to survive hits. He has none of the weaknesses of the other two, because his survivability, accuracy, and defensive capabilities are all superior to theirs.

Saizo's personal is terrible and his resistance is bad. He's the slowest of the three of them, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when he's still got a 55% in speed. Not to mention he has good bases and hilarity ensues with a barb shuriken and that 80% skill, which is supported, not lowered, by the class he starts in, while Kagero has to work with a low strength cap and Kaze has to try and grow in strength in a class with one of the lowest strength growths of the physical classes. His modifiers work in favor of his class.

[Nobody]

39 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

Niles does indeed do those things -- to a point. His strength is horridly low for much of the game, and while his speed is excellent, there comes a point where he fails to ORKO Ninjas (when the Ninja Cave comes around, he might not even double the Master Ninjas -- mine didn't). Flyer counters are nice, but when you get to Hinoka's chapter you could have several other (better) anti-air units: Archer!Mozu, Nina, Anna, Xander might as well be one, I had Kinshi!Shigure and he was plenty. Even Shura, if you didn't take the free boots, can do that.

It sounds like your niles might have been rng screwed. Pair ups and tonics make him quite likely to one round Master Ninjas on Den of Betrayal, and with a +1 iron bow he’s not far from one rounding then either. At level 20/1, he has at average 24 spd, which puts him at 29 with a +3 par up and tonics, which is what he needs to double master ninjas. There are not many master ninjas on the map, which mean that if you dance him with azura to deal specifically with those, he can deal with them even if spd screwed. At this point in the game, I can’t think of anyone else who can one round master ninjas.

while there are other anti flier units, they’re not much different from niles in this aspect. Nina depends on him for existing, Mozu is a bow locked underleveled unit (while niles has great bases and is instantly usable), anna is dlc, and Xander rarely will one double falcon knights and suffers against ones using bolt naginatas, which is fairly common. Niles also has shurikenbreaker which is almost 100% needed if you want to beat chapter 25 with a bad corrin (or without skipping it) and can get pass and 10 move with a pair up, which used for skipping the endgame, that is insanely hard otherwise on Lunatic.

Statically Shura is worse than Niles. His growths are much lower, and if you trained Niles, his bases won’t be much better either. 

I’m not into that, but captured units can be used for sacrifice strategies, which can allow some particularly nasty parts of the game to be beaten easier. There are actually LTC strategies that use that in order to save turns, which means that niles is an extremely important unit even on that modality, which is a mode one would not really expect him to do well.

The amount of good niches Niles has makes me confident on the fact that he never “falls off”

 

sorry for my behavior earlier, really, discussing politely is more fun

Edited October 13, 2017 by Nobody

[SoulWeaver]

44 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

Where would you put Fuga, Scarlet, and Rhajat? I haven't played BR, so I left Scarlet out because I have no idea how decent she is, and I haven't used the aforementioned trio. I'll add in Anna, Izana, and Percy

Fuga could probably be put in a separate category with Mozu as both are Master of Arms, though I think his Reclass is Swordmaster, so otherwise put him with the Samurai/Mercenaries?

Diviner should go with Mages, so there's Rhajat. I've liked her every time I've used her, though I don't really have anything more specific than that.

Scarlet kind of bugs me. In Revelations you already have Camilla and Beruka, and you don't get her for long enough to really let her shine, so she's never left the bench there. In Birthright, as I mentioned before, I already have Nichol fully set up every time by the time I get Scarlet so I very rarely use her. When I do, she's great, in part because she's the only Wyvern Unit, but I feel like she gets outclassed by the other fliers most of the time. I'd probably put her below Camilla and Beruka, but that may just be me so someone else put in your opinion.

[Ertrick36]

1 hour ago, Mandokarla said:

Shit you're right. Where would you put Fuga, Scarlet, and Rhajat? I haven't played BR, so I left Scarlet out because I have no idea how decent she is, and I haven't used the aforementioned trio. I'll add in Anna, Izana, and Percy

I'd say...

• Scarlet is pretty much one of the tankiest units you'll get in that path in bases alone; definitely a better prepromote than Reina, and is in the Wyvern Lord class, which lends well to her playstyle.  She joins mid-game, around the same time Ryoma does, and at a slightly lower level than him.  Probably just below Hinoka (who I do think is pretty useful in BR, honestly).  And she's useful enough for the two chapters you get to use her in Revelation; if nothing else, she can shelter Azama and Setsuna while Ryoma and Hinoka go to town on the enemies.
• Fuga's kind of redundant, and has lower growths than Reina or Yukimura, not to mention he arrives really late and has only two support partners.  He does join at level ten promoted (at minimum) at a time when you're fighting level 5 promoted units, and he as the stats to boot, so his usefulness is sort of in-line with Shura's.  But I wouldn't pick him over a lot of other units who could also fulfill his role; I wouldn't even pick him over Mozu, and I'd have qualms about picking him over Hana.
• Rhajat's variable like any other child.  She has really good magic potential; better than Ophelia, if you can get her the right mother.  In fact, it can be nearly as good as Orochi's or Elise's.  And not only that, but her speed growth could never be brought down to the same as Orochi's; without mother modifiers, it's actually slightly better than Ophelia's.  And just like Ophelia, she can join very early on, and she can do so in either path she's available.  The only major things she doesn't have that Ophelia does are a nice personal tome and a widely-applicable personal skill.  Rhajat has no personal weapon, and her skill only works with units who've already fought her.  But beyond that, she's pretty solid; I'd personally put her above Hayato, even if she's a squishier unit.
• I'll mention Yukimura too, though I suspect he won't really fit anywhere on the list (his base class is apothecary, fyi, so he might fit wherever Midori is).  About as underwhelming as a late-game unit can be.  Sort of like Fuga, except he joins even later.  And not just a little later; Fuga can join chapter 19 of Revelation, while Yukimura can't do so until chapter 23.  He's like one of those fodder characters you get in Shadow Dragon late-game; only really good if you've already lost a bunch of other units and can't be bothered to level up your bench-warmers.  I'd put him at the bottom of whatever list he'd belong to.  Unless you somehow felt like putting him under cavaliers...  Actually, no, he's less useful than even Gunter; at least Gunter helps you before the path split, early in Revelation, and for the map he joins in Conquest.  And he can buff useful ally stats with pair-up.  Yukimura's just a redundant unit who might not ever see use.

If you want, I could also give further assessments of some of the other BR characters you didn't really analyze that much.  BR was the first path I played, and I played it pretty extensively before moving on.

16 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

Fuga could probably be put in a separate category with Mozu as both are Master of Arms, though I think his Reclass is Swordmaster, so otherwise put him with the Samurai/Mercenaries?

Diviner should go with Mages, so there's Rhajat. I've liked her every time I've used her, though I don't really have anything more specific than that.

Scarlet kind of bugs me. In Revelations you already have Camilla and Beruka, and you don't get her for long enough to really let her shine, so she's never left the bench there. In Birthright, as I mentioned before, I already have Nichol fully set up every time by the time I get Scarlet so I very rarely use her. When I do, she's great, in part because she's the only Wyvern Unit, but I feel like she gets outclassed by the other fliers most of the time. I'd probably put her below Camilla and Beruka, but that may just be me so someone else put in your opinion.

- His base class is indeed samurai, and he sort of specializes in swords, as his sword rank is higher than his other weapon ranks when he joins.  Mozu specializes in lances, since by the time she promotes she'll likely have C rank in lances already and E in the other two weapon types.  Not only that, but she also can be a Merchant, which exclusively uses lances and bows, though that class isn't really good.

- Agree on both accounts.

- Barring captured units and reclassing shenanigans, she's the only Wyvern Lord you get to use in BR, and has considerable amount of defense compared to most other BR characters possibly barring Oboro, Silas, any Oni Savages, or some children.  Agree that she isn't quite as useful as Camilla or even Hinoka, but she's definitely no worse than Reina.

[Mandokarla]

55 minutes ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

I diagree here. Kaze has never pulled through for me, his strength isn't enough. Not only that, but Kaze's luck ruins his nice skill. His personal skill has not helped me once. His speed is nice, and occasionally I reclass him and he turns out okay, but reclassing isn't what we're talking about. In his base class, Kaze is not good.

Kagero's skill and luck are poor. I mean, she's an excellent ninja, but unfortunately, her HP and Defense growths mean if she gets hit, she's screwed, and her luck is only 10% higher than Kaze, meaning she doesn't dodge as often as she should either. She is actually the worst, in my opinion, because she dumps everything for strength and speed, so she can't hit accurately, can't be hit without dying, and is locked to shurikens, which means low damage output even with her high strength, meaning there is little reason to care about her high strength.

Saizo has always been my favorite because he's balanced. While Kaze hits like a wet tissue and can't get hurt without instant death, and Kagero is in a class that doesn't allow her to reach full potential because her very high strength is stuck in a class with a low strength cap, not to mention she has awful bulk like Kaze and has more trouble hitting than Kaze does with his crappy luck because both her skill and luck are lower, Saizo has zero accuracy issues, comes with a servicable strength stat, can actually use the Flame Shuriken (he has a magic growth, fun for reclassing, but that's besides the point), and has bulk to survive hits. He has none of the weaknesses of the other two, because his survivability, accuracy, and defensive capabilities are all superior to theirs.

Saizo's personal is terrible and his resistance is bad. He's the slowest of the three of them, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when he's still got a 55% in speed. Not to mention he has good bases and hilarity ensues with a barb shuriken and that 80% skill, which is supported, not lowered, by the class he starts in, while Kagero has to work with a low strength cap and Kaze has to try and grow in strength in a class with one of the lowest strength growths of the physical classes. His modifiers work in favor of his class.

The only, and I mean the only classes Kagero had less than 100% hitrate against in my run were snipers/bow knights and the odd master ninja. And those hit rates were still regularly 80+%. What happened to yours? Also, Kaze's personal doesn't use HIS luck, it uses his pair up partners'

[Florina's #1 Fan]

10 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

The only, and I mean the only classes Kagero had less than 100% hitrate against in my run were snipers/bow knights and the odd master ninja. And those hit rates were still regularly 80+%. What happened to yours? Also, Kaze's personal doesn't use HIS luck, it uses his pair up partners'

Yeah, Fates RNG is not friendly, and without reliable luck, you may as well just ignore what the hit rate says. My Arthur consistently got 80-90% hit rates, but he never hit anyway. And Kagero doesn't have skill or luck, so you were just blessed by RNGesus. Her skill is 40%, which is okay, and her luck is 30%, which is not too great.

Kaze's personal skill is okay. I know it's not bases on his luck stat. I never found it helpful because my Kaze was usually the lead on his pair ups, he was my debuffer for a while, I couldn't afford to have him be the one supporting, especially in Conquest. When he was needed for support, he was consistently supporting Selena, who didn't really need the help from Miraculous Save. I can see the skill has a use, I just never utilized it, and I'd rather have a skill that is sure to activate or is passive and helps other units.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Nobody said:

If you think Niles loses value quickly, then you’re simply wrong.

Niles eats ninjas for breakfast, destroys fliers (it’s not like there’s a late game map where 2/3 of the enemies are fliers, many using bows, nope, there’s not), captures invaluable enemies such as rally man and can deal with mages really well despite WTD, and those are all extremely important niches. Sure he can’t go one rounding bulky units like spear masters and oni chieftains but lol why would you try to do that.

@Mandokarlagot ahead of myself because his stubbornness gets on my nerve, but see my edit.

The thing is, I have very little patience for low luck units, which, unfortunately for him, Niles is guilty of being. Kidnap doesn't really do much good for his case since, as was stated earlier, there just aren't any mooks that would make me think "yeah, it's worth giving up a party slot to use this mook". And while being able to counter flyers and ninjas is nice, I'd prefer the types of counters that don't constantly risk instant death by critical hit every time they try to engage the latter (sure, there's Shurikenbreaker, but it's a level 15 skill, which I don't put much weight on because it's so late), and Hinoka's chapter is late enough that I'd have other options even discounting Niles. As things are, I have trouble finding good reasons to continue to invest in Niles after chapter 10 (or, for that matter, to remember he even exists after I recruit his daughter Nina).

Edited October 13, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SoulWeaver]

9 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

- Barring captured units and reclassing shenanigans, she's the only Wyvern Lord you get to use in BR, and has considerable amount of defense compared to most other BR characters possibly barring Oboro, Silas, any Oni Savages, or some children.  Agree that she isn't quite as useful as Camilla or even Hinoka, but she's definitely no worse than Reina.

Oh, she's definitely better than Reina, I meant Fliers you're supposed to actually do useful things with - I nearly gave up halfway through building Reina to A-Support with my Corrin because she was just THAT BAD for me. She's decent at best in the map she comes in, after that…it's not difficult to do better.

I just always capture Nichol every playthrough I do because I like having a Wyvern user early on, Silas is one of the easiest Units to marry off, Nichol easily outperforms every other recruitable Wyvern(if not Flier in general) enemy even if you don't get him from Museum Melee where he comes with better Weapon Ranks, and sometimes I want another Malig Knight option besides Camilla and Beruka. I don't even use Sophie's Paralogue for Sophie on Birthright anymore, honestly, because I like to use Nichol better, so in his case, you could say it's a matter of player preference I guess.