Are FEH's later maps unfair

[Greencapps]

What do you think?

Personally I think they are. I'll get into my reasoning later but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Greencapps

[Hilda]

Which maps particulalr are we talking about?

[Othin]

Define "unfair".

I think you could make a case for Chapter 12, but not really anything else. GHBs (and BHBs) can be pretty nasty but they've always been designed to trip you up.

[Armagon]

Nah, you just need to git gud.

Tbh, no, i don't think they are unfair. They can get frustrating on Lunatic, but most of it is usually the player's fault.

Infernal difficulty can go rot in hell though.

[Prince Endriu]

19 minutes ago, Greencapps said:

What do you think?

Personally I think they are. I'll get into my reasoning later but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.

No they are not.

In regard to your previous post from the stale topic.

Its obvious that if you start game that has been running for months you cannot anticipate to get everything done at once. Impossible. Even in arena you have to climb up the ladder to get 4 weekly orbs. Took me 9 weeks to get to tier 20 - was rather easy imo. Staying in tier 20 is a different matter, though.

I dont want the game to stay at the same difficulty level. Thats what makes it get stale in the first place and would be equally bad for both seasoned f2p and whale players. 

To cut a long story short, if its too hard try harder or wait until you get stronger. This month was the first time btw that I was able or even try to comple the armored unit quest - just because I got effie and BK and used two lv20 sheenas. I didnt complain about not being able to do it before because of a lack of units.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Prince Endriu

[XRay]

Nope. If you look on YouTube, there are plenty of strategy videos that uses only free, no-skill-inheritance units to tackle difficult maps. There is no shame in copying strategies from others.

Infernal difficulty is more tricky since they may require multiple 5* units, but they are definitely doable if you emulate strategy videos.

[Tuvy]

I agree. I feel that if you cant use any unit you want, it has some issues. It's almost impossible to make Henry or Odin viable and I feel that's a major balance issue. Maybe I'm just salty because 2 of my favorite characters are garbage, but some of the maps almost force you to use cavaliers to even consider beating them.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Tuvy

[Prince Endriu]

28 minutes ago, Tuvy said:

I agree. I feel that if you cant use any unit you want, it has some issues. It's almost impossible to make Henry or Odin viable and I feel that's a major balance issue. Maybe I'm just salty because 2 of my favorite characters are garbage, but some of the maps almost force you to use cavaliers to even consider beating them.

That would mean that it should be possible to be able to use 2* units to clear any map or challenge. Lets be real, if that was possible SI would make no sense. This is still an rpg, not action game, it has certain rules. You cannot expect to go in with 4 red sword lords and clear a map with blue units.

[Hilda]

38 minutes ago, Tuvy said:

I agree. I feel that if you cant use any unit you want, it has some issues. It's almost impossible to make Henry or Odin viable and I feel that's a major balance issue. Maybe I'm just salty because 2 of my favorite characters are garbage, but some of the maps almost force you to use cavaliers to even consider beating them.

thats not true. I think every unit is usable with the correct built, some just need more investment. Henry has the same stat spread as Boey and yet i run a Boey in my Arena Team with great success. It really all boils down to Skills and Team-Synergy. I cant stress that enough out. a mediocre Char can become amazing with the right Team build

[DarkLordIvy]

27 minutes ago, Tuvy said:

I agree. I feel that if you cant use any unit you want, it has some issues. It's almost impossible to make Henry or Odin viable and I feel that's a major balance issue. Maybe I'm just salty because 2 of my favorite characters are garbage, but some of the maps almost force you to use cavaliers to even consider beating them.

It can be hard making certain characters viable, but it is in no way impossible. Henry is honestly a pretty great Brave Lyn counter. All he needs is bowbreaker or T-adept. Odin is a fantastic candidate for life and death as it patches his attack and boost his speed to around 40. I know LaD3 is in short supply but it really is not hard or much of a feather strain anymore to promote a Hana for fodder.

You are putting horse emblem on way to high of a pedistle in my opinion. I and many others have gotten through the game just fine without using cavalry for the vast majority of the game. My own horse team really only sees use for the monthly orb quest and arena assault. 

[Hilda]

7 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

It can be hard making certain characters viable, but it is in no way impossible. Henry is honestly a pretty great Brave Lyn counter. All he needs is bowbreaker or T-adept. Odin is a fantastic candidate for life and death as it patches his attack and boost his speed to around 40. I know LaD3 is in short supply but it really is not hard or much of a feather strain anymore to promote a Hana for fodder.

You are putting horse emblem on way to high of a pedistle in my opinion. I and many others have gotten through the game just fine without using cavalry for the vast majority of the game. My own horse team really only sees use for the monthly orb quest and arena assault. 

This like seriously...
I mean i beat Legion Lunatic with healers only, the most crapy DDs and useless units in FEH...

 

[Nobody]

lmao i want to see OP's reaction to Lunatic Chain Challenges.

 

No, they're not unfair. They're clearly balanced around you having good units, but if you have a good team and can come up with decent strategies you will succeed.

[DarkLordIvy]

14 minutes ago, Hilda said:

This like seriously...
I mean i beat Legion Lunatic with healers only, the most crapy DDs and useless units in FEH...

 

That is beautiful. 

[tanuki]

I think it depends.

If you are a casual player like me, who wants to pick the game up and put it down in like 10-30 minutes.  Yes, the maps are getting unfair.   It seems like you need a certain character with a certain skill set, spend hours finding the correct strategy, or spend hundreds getting uber-characters.   With each new map, movement seems more and more restrictive.   I figure there will be a time when the map is just one large, one square wide hallway with level 40+40 Reinhardts with 50 speed and 100 defense/resistance, supported by Quad, Bride Cordelias with Iote's shield and +200 speed.   

If you are not a casual player then the maps seem very fair.  Either you have every character at 40+10  or you like spending your time finding that perfect strategy.  Then the maps would be fair.   

So there isn't going to be a clear consensus.   But I tend to agree that the maps are more unfair, because I just want to pick up and put down the game at my leisure.  I can understand other people who have the opposite reaction, because hey it's their choice what to do with their time and resources.   

 

[Greencapps]

53 minutes ago, Nobody said:

lmao i want to see OP's reaction to Lunatic Chain Challenges.

Nothing but Infernal, Squad Assult, and Arena gives me any real difficulty. I'm not bad at the game and your post felt extremely condescending. 

I still need time to gather my thoughts but in the meantime:

 @XRay could you provide some videos or at least more specific examples of what difficulty maps we're talking about.

and @Prince Endriu what are the teams you run for arena and such.

@Hilda listed in hard to harder: Ch 10 and up Lunatic/certain Paralogs, Lunatic Chain Challenges, Infernal/Squad Assault(+Arena but that's kind of a separate issue as IS doesn't program the builds you're fighting).

@OthinRequires either extremely lucky pulls or whaling.

[Othin]

1 minute ago, Greencapps said:

 

@OthinRequires either extremely lucky pulls or whaling.

In that case, absolutely not. Not even remotely close.

[Nobody]

7 minutes ago, Greencapps said:

Nothing but Infernal, Squad Assult, and Arena gives me any real difficulty. I'm not bad at the game and your post felt extremely condescending.

Okay, then elaborate what you find unfair about those maps. Because claiming something is unfair without even explaining the reasons for that just sounds like whining.

[Greencapps]

7 minutes ago, Othin said:

In that case, absolutely not. Not even remotely close.

Care to explain cause right now that's just conjecture.

@tanukiYou pretty much just hit the nail on the head right here. It's not about if the maps are do able, because all of them are, it's a matter of if they're reasonable.

@Nobody I literally say that I'll elaborate later in the OP I have my reasons I just need time to put together a good argument.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Greencapps

[Othin]

1 minute ago, Greencapps said:

Care to explain cause right now that's just conjecture.

Nah. You asked what we think, and that's what I think. Given that you haven't made any thorough argument for those maps being unfair, I don't feel the need to make a thorough argument refuting your stance.

Look up MKV's videos if you want to see many high-difficulty maps being done with teams of free units.

[Nobody]

Okay, if you want a more thoughtful analysis, TC, here it goes:

The game is not unfair. Like almost every other game in existence, there's a sense of progression. Intelligent Systems tries to make a game that can be enjoyed by Casual F2P, Dedicated F2P and spenders alike. The thing is, if they make the game completely and easily beatable by the first group, they will alianate the second and third groups. No one who spends money or has some dedication to the game has much trouble with the maps, and many already consider them relatively easy. Having a nice challenge is one of the interesting aspects of SRPGs for many, and that's why GHB and BHB exist. I personally think coming up with strategies to beat them with different units and teams is one of the most fun things in the game. If IS made those maps trivial and easily beatable with weak units, they'd be taking a lot of fun from them for many people.

TL;DR: The point of those maps is to provide challenges to people. Those maps barely provide challenges as it is for IS's mostly targeted audience (people who spend money on the game) and also those who don't spend money on the game but play it fairly often (like me). If they made them any more easy, they'd be removing one of the game's interesting point, that is, challenging maps that need strategy to be beaten, even with strong units.

 

If you wanted a more serious topic, you'd have FIRST came up with your toughts and then posted it. You can't expect people to respond thoughtfully to a topic with a single line written while you say brb i'll write the op later.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Nobody

[tanuki]

I don't think it's that unfair but can be seen that way and is a big pet peeve of mine.  I dislike it when a game has to break its core mechanics to provide a challenge.

I call this the 8 bit Nintendo Boss Cheat.   When you were playing an old Nintendo game and you built up an elaborate set of moves and abilities that you used to beat the level.  When you finally got to the boss you might have thought to yourself, hey I'm going to use this super cool move on the boss.  So you execute the move flawlessly, but surprise they are immune to everything but your basic attack.  The game basically had a set of rules and then threw them all away to artificially create a challenge.

The latest bound heroes map is a good example of this.  A bunch of flyers, I should use Archers.  Oh, they have a skill that makes them immune to archers.   This I think breaks the core mechanics of FEH.   It's a rock-paper-scissor game.  Every unit has its counter.  The exceptions irk me.   Archers beat flyers, except when they don't.  Swords beat axes, except when they don't.   Cecilia is the queen of blasting colorless, except when she can't.  You can see how the exceptions start to take over the game.  A special ability had to be made to break the rules and add an artificial challenge.  I say artificial because if the map stayed within the rules this map probably would have been a lot easier, almost not  a challenge.  So did they redesign or just put in a Deus Ex Machina.  Yeah, they went with the latter.    

I dunno it's kind of like saying you can beat Kasprov in chess, because you knock all his pieces down and hit him in the face.  Hey, it made chess more challenging for him.  

[Hilda]

9 minutes ago, tanuki said:

I don't think it's that unfair but can be seen that way and is a big pet peeve of mine.  I dislike it when a game has to break its core mechanics to provide a challenge.

I call this the 8 bit Nintendo Boss Cheat.   When you were playing an old Nintendo game and you built up an elaborate set of moves and abilities that you used to beat the level.  When you finally got to the boss you might have thought to yourself, hey I'm going to use this super cool move on the boss.  So you execute the move flawlessly, but surprise they are immune to everything but your basic attack.  The game basically had a set of rules and then threw them all away to artificially create a challenge.

The latest bound heroes map is a good example of this.  A bunch of flyers, I should use Archers.  Oh, they have a skill that makes them immune to archers.   This I think breaks the core mechanics of FEH.   It's a rock-paper-scissor game.  Every unit has its counter.  The exceptions irk me.   Archers beat flyers, except when they don't.  Swords beat axes, except when they don't.   Cecilia is the queen of blasting colorless, except when she can't.  You can see how the exceptions start to take over the game.  A special ability had to be made to break the rules and add an artificial challenge.  I say artificial because if the map stayed within the rules this map probably would have been a lot easier, almost not  a challenge.  So did they redesign or just put in a Deus Ex Machina.  Yeah, they went with the latter.    

I dunno it's kind of like saying you can beat Kasprov in chess, because you knock all his pieces down and hit him in the face.  Hey, it made chess more challenging for him.  

that is utter horseshit. nothing is preventing you to use Skill Inheritance to adjust your Strategy and group setup to make it work. Thats what defines a Strategy game. You are confronted with a new situation you cant overcome at first, but you change your Team setup/Skills and overcome it in the end. Thats what makes Strategy games fun. If you have an issue with that you are playing the wrong genre. There needs to be allways an obstacle to overcome and progression to be made.
I would agree with you if there was only Infernal mode, but there is Hard, Lunatic and Infernal. and no Infernal is not made for everyone, and yest Luantic is hard but it can be tackled by everyone who invests time in building his units. I just finished Minervas BHB on Lunatic with Healers only for gods sake...

PS: the Shield to negate Bow-users allready existed months before and was introduced with Michalis GHB... its not like they pulled something out of thing air.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Hilda

[Kiran]

I'm in the opposite boat. I don't find any maps challenging anymore. But thats mainly because I've played since launch and have quite a few good built units. Would new people have trouble with certain maps? Of course they would. But that's to be expected. But with SI being a thing, almost any unit is viable and its not too hard to get feathers to 5* units. 

Tempest Trials are now easy compared to the first one. You can run TT on Hard or even Lunatic 5 with autobattle and still win the large majority of the time. GHB/BHBs aren't that hard either. There used to be a guy that did it with just Sakuras. Even if you can't clear Infernal, you should be at least be able to clear the first difficulty. So all you are missing out on are a couple feathers and 2 copies of the same unit. I found CC to be the hardest content in the game right now. But even that is doable with an abundance of different teams. I've seen a pure colorless clear, horse emblem, flier emblem, mixed teams ect. And if you aren't able to figure out how to solve it yourself? Just find a video on youtube with the units you have.

Are some maps hard? Of course they are. Mountain of Fear (11-3) was pretty hard. Your units are split up and there's a mountain in between plus you have to live a set amount of turns. But there are ways around this. You can use fliers, WoM, Escape Route, or just nuke the enemy down. What about Celicia's defensive map (11-5) where the group is practically all on defensive tiles? If they weren't on defensive tiles, I would have nuked them on turn 1. But the defensive tiles PREVENT you from doing that. So now you have to be more careful on matchups. Think about positioning/skills, switch out some units possibly. The maps are static, nothing about them will change. You, on the other hand, can use anything you want.

The maps have to be "unfair" as our enemy is AI. We are obviously much more intelligent then the AI, thus we can put our units in range of favorable matchups or use movement skills offensively or switch skills at the click of a few buttons. If the maps weren't infavor of the enemy, I promise you, the vast majority of us would curbstomp on it and there wouldn't be any difficulty besides easy.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

Henry has the same stat spread as Boey

Last time I checked, 29 Atk was miles better than 23 Atk.

 

12 minutes ago, tanuki said:

A bunch of flyers, I should use Archers.  Oh, they have a skill that makes them immune to archers.

Iote's Shield, Delphi Shield, and other similar items exist in the main series and have the exact same effect. Furthermore, unless you missed the Michalis Grand Hero Battle (which is likely for newer players), players also have access to the same skill.

Rock-paper-scissors is a boring game, and Heroes is not rock-paper-scissors. Swords don't beat axes. Swords have an advantage over axes. That's a world of difference and is what makes Heroes a strategy game.

 

12 minutes ago, tanuki said:

I dislike it when a game has to break its core mechanics to provide a challenge.

"Bows beat fliers" is not a core mechanic (and isn't even remotely true to begin with outside of the Quick Hero Battle minigame where it is a core mechanic). "Effective damage is a 1.5 multiplier to Atk" is a core mechanic.

And guess what? Bows don't have effective damage against fliers equipped with Iote's Shield.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Othin]

7 minutes ago, Kiran said:

I'm in the opposite boat. I don't find any maps challenging anymore. But thats mainly because I've played since launch and have quite a few good built units. Would new people have trouble with certain maps? Of course they would. But that's to be expected. But with SI being a thing, almost any unit is viable and its not too hard to get feathers to 5* units. 

These are my feelings as well. I've been playing free since launch and there's almost nothing that poses a challenge to my best teams anymore. Personally, I'm hoping we start getting some even harder maps soon, so players at my level and higher can find satisfying challenges. Story maps, Chain Challenges, and Tempest Trials could really benefit from adding the option of Infernal difficulty, and I'd welcome GHBs/BHBs gaining a difficulty level above Infernal.

None of that should come at the expense of easier maps for newer or less dedicated players, of course. But it's important for there to be some maps for each group, and while there are plenty of easy maps, there really aren't enough hard maps.