Are FEH's later maps unfair

[LucarioGamer812]

I've played since launch, and I'll admit I do find some Lunatic maps challenging. Though to be fair, I am more of a collector person then a diehard battler, but I do have a fairly good team that I've always used, well always since I got them. Originally I didn't have any five stars until the Sibling banner where I pulled Eirika, Ephraim, and Lillina. Eirika got +1 due to two of her actually. Ephraim is actually not that good being -atk +res (yes his worse nature) but he's done a lot for me alongside the other two. The fourth member was a 4* Virion that I just threw there for chip, -spd debuffing, and anti-flier. That lasted until Brave Lyn who is now the permanent fourth member of my team. Nowadays Eirika is +2, Ephraim is still -atk, Lillina is +2 and constantly hits hard, and Brave Lyn is so useful. This is a team I got FTP (with some small whaling on a few banners) and as a reference, I used to be tier 18 in arena. Though nowadays I'm like tier 14 as I only play for the orbs/feathers. So the only troubles I really have are lunatic modes where the enemies stats are insane or anything that isn't a direct route the enemy map. Also Lunatic chain challenges are basically impossible for me above chapter five or if they're the 10 map ones, not even my main team, plus my previous tempest team (Ike, B! Lucina, Nino, usually runs Brave Lyn but can swap in Julia/Azura/Cordelia) and some other good 5 stars can't get it.

[tanuki]

29 minutes ago, Hilda said:

that is utter horseshit. nothing is preventing you to use Skill Inheritance to adjust your Strategy and group setup to make it work. Thats what defines a Strategy game. You are confronted with a new situation you cant overcome at first, but you change your Team setup/Skills and overcome it in the end. Thats what makes Strategy games fun. If you have an issue with that you are playing the wrong genre. There needs to be allways an obstacle to overcome and progression to be made.
I would agree with you if there was only Infernal mode, but there is Hard, Lunatic and Infernal. and no Infernal is not made for everyone, and yest Luantic is hard but it can be tackled by everyone who invests time in building his units. I just finished Minervas BHB on Lunatic with Healers only for gods sake...

PS: the Shield to negate Bow-users allready existed months before and was introduced with Michalis GHB... its not like they pulled something out of thing air.

It's more a a pet peeve than a complaint.  No reason to be so angry.

I agree with you on the difficulty levels, it's an investment to beat Lunatic, some are willing, some are not.  It's great that you finished Minerva's mission with Healers.  You are one of those that has chosen to invest heavily in this game, and thus you see things from your perspective.  I am more casual so I see it from a different perspective, but still enjoy the game.  I do disagree that to properly challenge someone in a strategy game you must create new obstacles and break the rules.   Chess is a good example, the core mechanics have remained the same for hundreds of years.   If suddenly I said my bishops can now move horizontally across the board, that would be unfair to a lot of people.   Some people might welcome the change, a good example of this is 3D chess.   

We are arguing from two different views.  No hard feelings.   

Edited October 12, 2017 by tanuki

[Hilda]

9 minutes ago, tanuki said:

It's more a a pet peeve than a complaint.  No reason to be so angry.

I agree with you on the difficulty levels, it's an investment to beat Lunatic, some are willing, some are not.  It's great that you finished Minerva's mission with Healers.  You are one of those that has chosen to invest heavily in this game, and thus you see things from your perspective.  I am more casual so I see it from a different perspective, but still enjoy the game.  I do disagree that to properly challenge someone in a strategy game you must create new obstacles and break the rules.   Chess is a good example, the core mechanics have remained the same for hundreds of years.   If suddenly I said my bishops can now move horizontally across the board, that would be unfair to a lot of people.   Some people might welcome the change, a good example of this is 3D chess.   

We are arguing from two different views.  No hard feelings.   

Ecxept the rules havent change at all. The Core is still the same, the calculation is still the same, the AI still reacts the same, nothing has changed at all.
If you want to take chess as an example:
"Oh this player plays usually a very strong Bishop, but today he is playing ecxeptionally good with Rooks. I need to adjust my Strategy and maybe put more effort into my Horses to counter the Towers properly." This is what i see, the rules are still the same, but i have to handle stuff different because they have some skill combination that makes my olde strategy not so effectiv.

[Othin]

16 minutes ago, tanuki said:

It's more a a pet peeve than a complaint.  No reason to be so angry.

I agree with you on the difficulty levels, it's an investment to beat Lunatic, some are willing, some are not.  It's great that you finished Minerva's mission with Healers.  You are one of those that has chosen to invest heavily in this game, and thus you see things from your perspective.  I am more casual so I see it from a different perspective, but still enjoy the game.  I do disagree that to properly challenge someone in a strategy game you must create new obstacles and break the rules.   Chess is a good example, the core mechanics have remained the same for hundreds of years.   If suddenly I said my bishops can now move horizontally across the board, that would be unfair to a lot of people.   Some people might welcome the change, a good example of this is 3D chess.   

We are arguing from two different views.  No hard feelings.   

Chess has always been a game where each piece has exactly one specific set of abilities. (Actually, from my recollection, its rules have been revised a few times, but not at all recently.) FE Heroes has always been a game where units have six slots for skills to modify their abilities. New skills have been getting regularly introduced to FE Heroes even in the first month, and skills to nullify effective bonuses have been around even in the original game.

"Bows deal effective damage against all enemy fliers, without exceptions" has never been true in FE Heroes, not even on the first day.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Othin

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Greencapps said:

 @XRay could you provide some videos or at least more specific examples of what difficulty maps we're talking about.

These are the YouTubers I follow off the top of my head. They saved me a bunch of stamina potions. Just go to their list of videos and look for a specific map that you have trouble with.

Mkv. (retired)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ_QRK7oSk2lMDw6_D410Vw

さる Games (took over Mkv.)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa6un0_j1Wa3w1IWM6m_eeg

nstyler
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSsMqMq6uEU52WS9_HnvtYA

Pheonixmaster1
https://www.youtube.com/user/Pheonixmaster1

Ushi Gaming Channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/Ushitarius

 

[maybe]

the only unfair heroes map is the island

[property of nuvelle]

It's not unfair. It's challenging sure, but definitely unfair. You can hate maps for being really hard with enemy with crazy boosted stats, but if it's beatable then it's not unfair.

There is a difference between "can't make units workable" and "unit having little to no use on a map". Special maps (GHB & BHB) aren't always designed for every team to work with.

[Alexmender]

Which maps are we talking about and in what context? 

Chain Challenge 11+12 is the hardest the game has thrown at me, and since then everything afterwards seems more tame in comparison. Infernal maps tend to require a specific type of unit to beat them but that can be every character who falls in that category, there's no need for the best of the best unless you want to make things easier for yourself. Hell, all those maps can be done using the f2p rotation units, of course some will need SI but unless you're a total newb who shouldn't even try those maps you'll have ways to work around their gimmicks. 

Now in arena it's more a game of chance, things like the boat map, the breakable walls, the map where you and your enemy start in the left/right extreme with rubble and def. tiles can be unfair based on the enemy team but then again that's not true for everyone (please delete those shits, I hate those maps).

[Greencapps]

I never intended this to be an OP vs the world topic I legit wanted a discussion on the topic which is why I didn't think that me stating my entire stance upfront was necessary.  

Also I obviously don't want everything to be beatable with literally any 2* I understand that there has to be progression. 

And thinking back on it I was way to inclusive to what maps were too hard. I will concede to you guys on pretty much everything thing except Infernal. Most of my talking points were pretty shit and were just thrown up cause I was backed into a corner and didn't want to admit defeat.

My distaste for Infernal is less about it being unfair, so this was sort of a poorly thought out topic in retrospect, and more of my irritation of how they're scaling the difficulty. I don't think that statbooting everybody to hell is a good way of making a harder difficulty. Sure it is harder but it's not more interesting or fun and it's not sustainable. People want a difficulty higher than Infernal I can respect that but it's probably just going to create a more where every unit has an exorbitant amount of health and can OHKO any unit if they keep going about difficulty increases the same way. What I'm proposing is actually putting effort into harder difficulties. Changing the map through difficulties. Maybe making them larger than 8x6. Editing the AI. Making better synergy between the units. Have completely different units. Something more than slapping on some stat boosts and seemingly random skills plus an extra unit for good measure and calling it a day. It's lazy, cheap, and while not necessarily unfair just not compelling.

So that's my take I could have set up the discussion better but it's to late now.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

They don't just throw darts at a board to determine what those units bring to the field. There's usually some rhyme or reason, like stopping Hector or Xander from soloing the entire map. Or, in this case, Brave Lyn. There's also them putting things that make units more dangerous against the things they have colour advantage against. For example, Narcian's map brings multiple breakers such that even units with huge Def or Res values need to think twice about tanking disadvantaged match-ups. Then there's plenty of synergy thrown around. Berkut's and Michalis's maps both brought unit-type buffs that made it advantageous to divide and conquer. There's also Ephraim and Eirika's BHB where there were blade mages and buffers. Get a pick there and their composition starts to completely fall apart because they're not very strong without the blade buffs (or use Brave Lyn to just ignore them entirely, I guess).

Infernal tends to add skills that either enhance these enemy strategies directly or make it more difficult for common or obvious player strategies to roll straight over them. The stat boosts can sometimes be excessive, but I think it does tend to provide an interesting issue for the player. One-rounding is so common in most of the game that getting an advantageous match-up usually means the enemy just stops being a threat right there. But... what if the player needs multiple rounds to kill something? Suddenly, bulk/healing is more valuable. The player is forced to consider more complex positioning because enemies can survive multiple engagements.

[Tuvy]

5 hours ago, tanuki said:

I think it depends.

If you are a casual player like me, who wants to pick the game up and put it down in like 10-30 minutes.  Yes, the maps are getting unfair.   It seems like you need a certain character with a certain skill set, spend hours finding the correct strategy, or spend hundreds getting uber-characters.   With each new map, movement seems more and more restrictive.   I figure there will be a time when the map is just one large, one square wide hallway with level 40+40 Reinhardts with 50 speed and 100 defense/resistance, supported by Quad, Bride Cordelias with Iote's shield and +200 speed.   

If you are not a casual player then the maps seem very fair.  Either you have every character at 40+10  or you like spending your time finding that perfect strategy.  Then the maps would be fair.   

So there isn't going to be a clear consensus.   But I tend to agree that the maps are more unfair, because I just want to pick up and put down the game at my leisure.  I can understand other people who have the opposite reaction, because hey it's their choice what to do with their time and resources.   

 

this

I don't know where having to adjust my team every map in a strategy game comes from? I always just use the units I like and it works out. Hell, i've beat Hector Hard mode without even touching Marcus. I've never used a Jeigan in a FE before, and I still don't use (most) pre-promotes. I just feel like if I want to use a team of Hinata, Henry, Azama, and Legion I should be able to without investing a whole lot of time on the game. If this was a actual FE game I wouldn't be mad at all, but since this is an APP I feel it takes way to much time to "git gud". I always assumed it would just be a game where you could use your favorite fire emblem units, but apparently I can't.

[Greencapps]

@Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi I was being hyperbolic. Of course they don't just throw darts at a board to decide what skills they give to units. It just feels that way because of how little the vast majority actually do. At least to me. Don't get me wrong some of the skills as depth like flier formation on Minerva but most just feel like they are there to fill empty space.

@Tuvy This was another point I was trying to make but I just didn't know how to articulate it. Thanks for getting it out there.

And to answer you question it's Thrasia

Edited October 13, 2017 by Greencapps

[Kiran]

9 minutes ago, Tuvy said:

this

I don't know where having to adjust my team every map in a strategy game comes from? I always just use the units I like and it works out. Hell, i've beat Hector Hard mode without even touching Marcus. I've never used a Jeigan in a FE before, and I still don't use (most) pre-promotes. I just feel like if I want to use a team of Hinata, Henry, Azama, and Legion I should be able to without investing a whole lot of time on the game. If this was a actual FE game I wouldn't be mad at all, but since this is an APP I feel it takes way to much time to "git gud". I always assumed it would just be a game where you could use your favorite fire emblem units, but apparently I can't.

But it is possible to beat the game using your favorite units. Just look at the Sakura guy. He used to beat all the GHBs using just Sakura. The problem with this is that you would have to heavily invest in these units. There are obviously other units that require no investment and are still able to do the job. But in the long run, there is nothing stopping you from only using favorite units except for time and money. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Kiran

[Othin]

• Use your favorite units
• Beat all the highest difficulties
• Play at little/no cost

Pick two.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

4 minutes ago, Greencapps said:

@Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi I was being hyperbolic. Of course they don't just throw darts at a board to decide what skills they give to units. It just feels that way because of how little the vast majority actually do. At least to me. Don't get me wrong some of the skills as depth like flier formation on Minerva but most just feel like they are there to fill empty space.

@Tuvy This was another point I was trying to make but I just didn't know how to articulate it. Thanks for getting it out there.

And to answer you question it's Thrasia

Care to name anything in specific that bugs you? Because most units, when I look at the map, have a skill set that make them good at stalling or killing certain player unit archetypes. Of course, if you're fielding units that that don't fall into being countered by those enemy units, then said enemy units are just going to look like they're bringing random whatever.

 

17 minutes ago, Tuvy said:

this

I don't know where having to adjust my team every map in a strategy game comes from? I always just use the units I like and it works out. Hell, i've beat Hector Hard mode without even touching Marcus. I've never used a Jeigan in a FE before, and I still don't use (most) pre-promotes. I just feel like if I want to use a team of Hinata, Henry, Azama, and Legion I should be able to without investing a whole lot of time on the game. If this was a actual FE game I wouldn't be mad at all, but since this is an APP I feel it takes way to much time to "git gud". I always assumed it would just be a game where you could use your favorite fire emblem units, but apparently I can't.

2 minutes ago, Kiran said:

But it is possible to beat the game using your favorite units. Just look at the Sakura guy. He used to beat all the GHBs using just Sakura. The problem with this is that you would have to heavily invest in these units. There are obviously other units that require no investment and are still able to do the job. There is nothing stopping you from only using favorite units except for time and money. 

Some don't necessarily require heavy investment. Some units still work reasonably well with medium investment or pulling skills off of really common donors. TA2 Henry with Quick Riposte and Bonfire can still take down many greys and some green mages. Hinata's not that great as a generalist, but he walls axes pretty well. Quick Riposte and Bonfire allow him to have it out with melee. Those two are also pretty tanky, so Azama shouldn't have too much trouble keeping them up. He's also fairly tanky himself. Legion's base set is good enough to take on most blues and many greens. Of course, only using a team of these can be really iffy because it's really unbalanced in terms of advantages. If I were to replace this team with Celica, Lucina, Elise and Brave Ike, there would still be significant iffiness about the team comp. No blue means match-ups against reds might be problematic. The team is also lacking overall in Res, meaning Elise might have trouble keeping them up.

As others have mentioned, this is a strategy game, even if it is an app. Top-tier units are still going to run into severe problems if their comp isn't synergistic. Individually, your favourites should be usable with some tweaking and some teammates who actually complement them. Like, Henry might want allies around him that boost his Atk to help him with his damage problems. Or maybe they boost his Def to help him take advantage of his bulk and boost his Bonfire damage. But, if you absolutely have to use that specific comp of Hinata, Henry, Azama and Legion, well... you're gonna have to put more effort into it. You're willfully fighting at a disadvantage at that point. I mean, trying to come at Infernal with a bad comp like that, with under-prepared units would be like expecting to breeze through no-grind Awakening Lunatic+ with a team of Donnel, Maribelle, Ricken and Stahl.

[MrSmokestack]

33 minutes ago, Tuvy said:

I don't know where having to adjust my team every map in a strategy game comes from? I always just use the units I like and it works out. Hell, i've beat Hector Hard mode without even touching Marcus. I've never used a Jeigan in a FE before, and I still don't use (most) pre-promotes. I just feel like if I want to use a team of Hinata, Henry, Azama, and Legion I should be able to without investing a whole lot of time on the game.

That is literally what strategy entails.

There is no strategy involved in being able to beat any content a game pushes out with the same set of units or moves. That’s not a challenge at all.

Choosing to use—or not use, conversely—regardless of the situation just makes things harder on yourself. Challenging strategy games, or really any game in general, should push you to explore all of your options. Someone can’t just say something is difficult when they’re not using everything the game gives them.

That said, Heroes is still easier than the average SRPG when any unit can work when used in the right niche and with enough investment.

Units like Henry, Robin, and Boey obviously cannot compete with -Blade mages when it comes to sheer damage output for example, but they shine with more defensive builds like Raven Adept Breaker that the units they are supposedly “inferior” to cannot use because of how their stats are spread out. The player isn’t going to be able to use one or the other exclusively in every single situation, and that’s a good thing. It’s called balance.

4 minutes ago, Othin said:

• Use your favorite units
• Beat all the highest difficulties
• Play at little/no cost

Pick two.

We have a winner, folks.

Edited October 13, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[TheWill]

Honestly, content is too easy.

B!Lyn/Reinhardt or a blade mage + dancer just steamroll too much. They need to do something to counter this more. You can tell they've put Reinhardt into consideration for some of the events and some are well designed challenges, but with the new sacred seals counter-acting brave users, I'm interested to see how these challenges will go forward. 

[NekoKnight]

As a F2P player since launch, I'm going to say that some challenges are quite hard and frustrating, but most are very doable without investing even a nickel.

This game has a lot of content that is available for people who want a casual experience, and it has harder challenges and more rewards for people who want to dedicate more time or money. Challenges make the game fun for a good portion of the players and you can't simultaneously make everything doable by casuals and fun for dedicated players. This is why difficulties exist, so each person can tailor the experience to their liking.

People who work harder and smarter get more rewards. Don't be upset just because you want everything while working less.

1 hour ago, Othin said:

• Use your favorite units
• Beat all the highest difficulties
• Play at little/no cost

Pick two.

But what if my favorites are top tier?

[thecrimsonflash]

2 hours ago, Othin said:

• Use your favorite units
• Beat all the highest difficulties
• Play at little/no cost

Pick two.

I occasionally teeter on all three, not all the time but I'm just happy that my favorites can go somewhat well together.

[Silverly]

I actually find some maps harder than the newer ones, such as 6-5, 7-3, and 8-2 for example. I think the former two were even taken out of circulation for the Training Tower (correct me if I am wrong).

[Prince Endriu]

8 hours ago, Greencapps said:

Nothing but Infernal, Squad Assult, and Arena gives me any real difficulty. I'm not bad at the game and your post felt extremely condescending. 

I still need time to gather my thoughts but in the meantime:

 @XRay could you provide some videos or at least more specific examples of what difficulty maps we're talking about.

and @Prince Endriu what are the teams you run for arena and such.

@Hilda listed in hard to harder: Ch 10 and up Lunatic/certain Paralogs, Lunatic Chain Challenges, Infernal/Squad Assault(+Arena but that's kind of a separate issue as IS doesn't program the builds you're fighting).

@OthinRequires either extremely lucky pulls or whaling.

Depends on the bonus unit. My team this week is Ike+1, Reinhardt +1, BowLyn and dancer. Next season I will probably choose Sharena. Of course I promoted the whole askr trio.

Arena Assault is a little bit trickier, its only now that I have full 5* teams. Before I ran a mix of 4 and 5 star units. Current run:  4806 points

[Hilda]

6 hours ago, Othin said:

• Use your favorite units
• Beat all the highest difficulties
• Play at little/no cost

Pick two.

I'll take 1 and 2!

[eclipse]

Your luck has to be worse than mine on the bridal banner for this game to be unfair.  Yes, F2P will have to think/work harder.  However, it's well worth it. . .well, except the current BHB, which is "move a Brave Bow unit around".

Otherwise, the stat point totals for player characters are surprisingly consistent (X is for an infantry unit, modify as necessary for dancer/mage/horse/armor/Tobin).  IMO it's the skills that truly make or break a unit.

Edited October 13, 2017 by eclipse

[Vaximillian]

23 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Your luck has to be worse than mine on the bridal banner for this game to be unfair. 

I didn’t even pull on the bridal banner!

At least I don’t complain when yet another guide recommends Bridal Cordelia. Well duh, I have to substitute.

[eclipse]

6 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

I didn’t even pull on the bridal banner!

At least I don’t complain when yet another guide recommends Bridal Cordelia. Well duh, I have to substitute.

So do I. . .but luckily, Leon's pretty enough to work.  Having one less attack than Bridal Cordy is a huge plus, too.