Is it good for Fire Emblem Games to facilitate "Iron Man" playthroughs?

[MrRedCR]

I have recently gotten into playing Fire Emblem games "iron man" style (i.e. keeping character deaths a-la nuzlocke runs in Pokemon games), and have grown to love how much doing so adds to the games. My first iron man on Thracia 776 (because I may or may not hate myself) really made me love the game, which I previously had not played much of since life got in the way when I was still early in the game. For as stressful as it can be, I like how it forces you to think about each move, and lends itself to emergent gameplay narratives, such as how I accidently got Felgus killed in chapter 4 while trying to save Karin from being attacked by four guards. For as frustrating as it was (particularly because he had the killing edge in his inventory), it provided so much more meaning to his dialogue at the start of the chapter when he talked about staying behind so that Leif could escape. As time in the game passed, I imagined that Karin thought about how this complete stranger sacrificed himself for her, and she used that as motivation to grow into one of my best units (crusader scrolls FTW).

This made me wonder if it is important for Fire Emblem to facilitate this style of play because of what it could do for the narrative. Perhaps a return of systems such as crusader scrolls to help character growths, including more late game pre-promotes in case you lose too many units early on, alongside units that are a little weaker than others you meet earlier in the game as "replacement" characters, and other things like that for people that want to play that way. Of course, this style should not be forced upon people who do not want to play in this fashion, as I imagine that most players would rather not, but I think that many of the best games in the series lend themselves well to this style.

But that's enough of my rambling. I want to know what you folks think. Do you like playing iron man runs? Have you thought about trying them? Do you think including systems designed to facilitate that sort of play would be beneficial or harmful to the overall gameplay and/or popularity of the games? I really want to know what people think about this.

Edited October 15, 2017 by MrRedCR

[saisymbolic]

To be honest, it's difficult for me to play Iron Man runs in Fire Emblem, mainly because it's so easy to just restart a file or system. I mean, I may as well play on Casual but I always feel odd doing so. I want to say that I wish there was some kind of mechanic that forces units lost to stay lost while playing Classic, but I feel that may be taking away freedom from players.

I do believe there needs to be some kind of incentive that would make a player decide to leave a character dead (as awful as that sounds). Something that bothers me with some of the games is that units' deaths never really feel as if they hold any weight—the world moves on as if the minor characters never existed. Of course, the world doesn't revolve around these characters and their absence doesn't warrant it to stop its rotation, but I would at least like some mention of them being a part of the players' army. Most characters have an attachment to other characters in their respective games; all they literally have to do is write a brief blurb about how those closest to them felt when they fell in battle in the epilogue. Better yet, have a Base Conversation after the tragic battle to get perspective from a max support partner or characters that were close to them. I'll take those anytime over a brief death quote during battle that no one cares about. /rant

On a side note, I recently technically did a Iron Man of Fates: Birthright because Hana couldn't dodge a armored unit. Granted, it was obvious she wouldn't, but I couldn't bring myself to restart at that moment. So, I went a full extra six chapters before I realized I couldn't leave her dead for good. No wonder I always bench her for Hinata.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, saisymbolic said:

To be honest, it's difficult for me to play Iron Man runs in Fire Emblem, mainly because it's so easy to just restart a file or system. I mean, I may as well play on Casual but I always feel odd doing so. I want to say that I wish there was some kind of mechanic that forces units lost to stay lost while playing Classic, but I feel that may be taking away freedom from players.

I do believe there needs to be some kind of incentive that would make a player decide to leave a character dead (as awful as that sounds). Something that bothers me with some of the games is that units' deaths never really feel as if they hold any weight—the world moves on as if the minor characters never existed. Of course, the world doesn't revolve around these characters and their absence doesn't warrant it to stop its rotation, but I would at least like some mention of them being a part of the players' army. Most characters have an attachment to other characters in their respective games; all they literally have to do is write a brief blurb about how those closest to them felt when they fell in battle in the epilogue. Better yet, have a Base Conversation after the tragic battle to get perspective from a max support partner or characters that were close to them. I'll take those anytime over a brief death quote during battle that no one cares about. /rant

On a side note, I recently technically did a Iron Man of Fates: Birthright because Hana couldn't dodge a armored unit. Granted, it was obvious she wouldn't, but I couldn't bring myself to restart at that moment. So, I went a full extra six chapters before I realized I couldn't leave her dead for good. No wonder I always bench her for Hinata.

Wouldn't take away freedom if it was an additional mode on top of Casual and Classic. More options means more fun (generally speaking).

[MrRedCR]

39 minutes ago, saisymbolic said:

Something that bothers me with some of the games is that units' deaths never really feel as if they hold any weight—the world moves on as if the minor characters never existed. Of course, the world doesn't revolve around these characters and their absence doesn't warrant it to stop its rotation, but I would at least like some mention of them being a part of the players' army. Most characters have an attachment to other characters in their respective games; all they literally have to do is write a brief blurb about how those closest to them felt when they fell in battle in the epilogue. Better yet, have a Base Conversation after the tragic battle to get perspective from a max support partner or characters that were close to them. I'll take those anytime over a brief death quote during battle that no one cares about. /rant

That's one thing that I liked about Shadows of Valentia. Some character deaths affected the stories of character that had relations to them, such as Mae grieving in the post-battle screen if Boey gets killed, or Gray becoming an alcoholic in his ending if Tobin dies (I think that was only in the original Gaiden though; I think IS might have softened up this ending in SoV). More bits like this as well as special base conversations like Sai said could be a great way to encourage iron man runs without necessarily forcing it upon players. You could get alternative story bits that transform the narrative in such a way that you do not get a lesser experience for keeping deaths. Fingers crossed that they at least do the altered character endings when their friends/loved ones die for FE Switch.

Just please do not make half of the cast retreat to facilitate the existence of child units like in Awakening and Fates again. I love both those games, but that was annoying. I want my characters to actually die in battle dangnabbit.

[NekoKnight]

While I'm a reset player, I think I would enjoy a mode that gives you extra rewards for playing Ironman style. Something like unlocking additional items, characters or gaidens. I don't know how they would enforce people playing it without resets, but it would be neat.

As far as general gameplay goes, more nods to character deaths should be made as we can see in PoR and SoV.

[X-Naut]

While there are limits to how many people can die, yes. Having enough characters to replenish your roster as you go ensures that people can get through the game without resetting, and if nothing else offers replayability on subsequent playthroughs. Just so long as there's quality to go with the quantity of characters...

[Punished Dayni]

2 hours ago, MrRedCR said:

Gray becoming an alcoholic in his ending if Tobin dies (I think that was only in the original Gaiden though; I think IS might have softened up this ending in SoV).

Well, you're half right:

Spoiler

Gray

(If Tobin died)

Devastated by Tobin’s death, Gray was nearly lost to the demon drink until Clair convinced him to clean up. After declining knighthoods in the One Kingdom, the two married and lived out quiet lives. Gray was especially fond of his son, whom he named after his friend.

(If Clair died)

Having lost the woman he loved, Gray surprised even himself by embracing the life of a vagabond and setting off for parts unknown. His friends spared no effort in attempting to track him down, but it was to no avail.

[Azz]

I mean the older games always kind of did facilitate iron man runs, hat's the reason FE1 had so many cavs and mercs, yeah the later ones weren't as good as the ones you got earlier in the game but that was your punishment for losing units, you got not as good replacements later on.

But basically I think IS should facilitate iron mans (I personally don't play them since I either go cas or reset but yeah :P)

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Azz said:

I mean the older games always kind of did facilitate iron man runs, hat's the reason FE1 had so many cavs and mercs, yeah the later ones weren't as good as the ones you got earlier in the game but that was your punishment for losing units, you got not as good replacements later on.

But basically I think IS should facilitate iron mans (I personally don't play them since I either go cas or reset but yeah :P)

I think almost every game in the series is designed with Iron Man in mind. Probably the game least friendly to it would be Sacred Stones (which funnily enough is the only game I actually have Iron Manned) since it has a small cast and the number of new recruits gained late in the game is pretty small (and also Syrene's stats are weaker than Seth's). It's pretty clear in that game they wanted the branching class system to be the source of replayability and not which characters you actually used (they didn't even bother giving a separate cast of characters for the two routes -_-).

Edited October 15, 2017 by Jotari

[MrRedCR]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think almost every game in the series is designed with Iron Man in mind. Probably the game least friendly to it would be Sacred Stones (which funnily enough is the only game I actually have Iron Manned) since it has a small cast and the number of new recruits gained late in the game is pretty small (and also Syrene's stats are weaker than Seth's). It's pretty clear in that game they wanted the branching class system to be the source of replayability and not which characters you actually used (they didn't even bother giving a separate cast of characters for the two routes -_-).

I would argue that Fates discouraged iron man runs. Perhaps I'm just dumb, but I had a lot of deaths in Conquest that involved a unit getting killed by a dual strike that I didn't realize killed them. It also doesn't help that, like Sacred Stones, the unit rosters for Birthright and Conquest are smaller (Revelations has a bigger roster, but I hear the balance makes it hard to use quite a few units; I haven't played it, so let me know if I'm wrong about that), and there is a lack of prepromotes in the late game. There is also the fact that the games were designed around using the royals since they're objectively better than everyone else, and are almost always going to be on your endgame team.

I don't want this to sound like I'm just bashing Fates, as I really like Conquest in particular, but I do wonder if adding in more elements to facilitate iron man runs would have added or talen away from the overall experience. The game's still great on its own, but I do think that facilitating permadeath runs more would have made it even better.