Holy Blood Rings (FE4 Echoes Idea)

[Von Ithipathachai]

So one thing that upset me about Genealogy of the Holy War is that you can't use every Holy Weapon due to certain weapons not having playable wielders (*coughHelswathcough*).  While thinking of ways this could possibly be fixed in a potential remake, I remembered that there were certain rings that granted stat bonuses or Skills when held in the user's inventory, so I thought to myself, "Why couldn't this be done with Holy Blood?"

What these rings do is that they amplify the user's existing Minor Blood into Major Blood when equipped.  For example, Arthur and Tine normally cannot wield Mjölnir because they do not have Major Thrud Blood.  However, if one of them were to obtain the ring (Thrud's Ring in this example) at a certain point in the game (likely after seizing Friege Castle), they would be able to wield Mjölnir after obtaining it from defeating Ishtar.

However, as fun as this sounds, I'd be apprehensive about including them in a remake if they compromise certain aspects of the story (one huge issue being why couldn't Galle's descendants simply make a Loptyr's Ring).  Still, I'd love to hear any other thoughts, suggestions, or constructive criticisms you may have of this idea.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Von Ithipathachai

[Interdimensional Observer]

Doesn't sound like a bad idea. I was thinking if we had to BS access to all Holy Weapons in FE4, then they could do something like if you had Iuchar/Iucharba kill the other they'd have a chat and a magical Holy Blood transfer happens. Arthur/Amid and Tine/Linda could kill Ishtar I was thinking, but visiting the castle after her defeat works too.

Just make Arion and Saias playable for the the other two holy weapons. Not hard, just tweak Altenna's Arion chat in the final battle, and replace Palmark with Saias with him getting Valflame at the chapter's end. Simple and effective.

[Acacia Sgt]

Personally, I think it was a nice touch that not all Holy Weapons (and Major carriers) were within access to the player. It exemplified how the Crusader lineages had broken apart due to various reasons, and were no longer all united against the second coming of the Loptyr, with some even cooperating with them to various extents.

But, if a hypothetical remake were to think it has to award the weapons for some reason or another, then I think they should do it like what some hacks have done. Make Minor carriers be able to use them, but not to their full power. That should balance things out.

[Armagon]

I liked how not every Holy Weapon was unavailable to the player. However, a good compromise would be, with the rings equipped, the respective Holy Weapon would be able to be used but it'll be less powerful than when used by a natural-born Major Holy Blood uses them.

I still want them to fully explain how Holy Blood works though. Why do some people only get Minor Holy Blood while other members in the same family get Major Holy Blood?

[Zasplach]

I think the idea of the player getting the holy weapons, irrespective of how it affects game play, breaks the narrative.  The corruption of the crusader lineages, especially those of Dozel, Freegae and Velthomer, is pretty central to the plot.  The infighting in those houses between the main line of those houses and their lesser cousins and the inverse for house Jungby is one of the main plot points of the second generation that is rarely explored by the game itself except for conversations between cousins/siblings who battle each other.  Those issues can add an element of conflict that the SNES system didn't handle very well, but the new systems could make compelling.

 

The idea of having all the holy weapons united against Julius is compelling and it could be fun to have a whole army of holy weapon knights, but I think it would destroy the essence of what Genealogy is.

[Von Ithipathachai]

Just now, Armagon said:

I liked how not every Holy Weapon was unavailable to the player. However, a good compromise would be, with the rings equipped, the respective Holy Weapon would be able to be used but it'll be less powerful than when used by a natural-born Major Holy Blood uses them.

I still want them to fully explain how Holy Blood works though. Why do some people only get Minor Holy Blood while other members in the same family get Major Holy Blood?

I thought I heard somewhere that only one's firstborn can have Major Holy Blood, but that can't be right as Hezul had multiple children, the youngest of whom was his only Major Blood carrier.  So I don't know.

1 minute ago, Zasplach said:

The idea of having all the holy weapons united against Julius is compelling and it could be fun to have a whole army of holy weapon knights, but I think it would destroy the essence of what Genealogy is.

...I was afraid of something like that when I came up with this idea, but it had more to do with how the Holy Blood Rings could possibly be created and why certain families have them when others don't.  I figure it would be about as contrived as the Deeprealms in Fates.

But I want my Helswath dangit!

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

But I want my Helswath dangit!

At least you can use it in Awakening.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I thought I heard somewhere that only one's firstborn can have Major Holy Blood, but that can't be right as Hezul had multiple children, the youngest of whom was his only Major Blood carrier.  So I don't know.

I've seen people theorize that's because the youngest was the only one born after the Miracle of Darna, and Holy Blood is not added retroactively (especially when you take into account two of the crusaders were siblings).

Of course, that's just headcannon, but it's as good as any explanation until disproven or confirmed.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Von Ithipathachai]

4 minutes ago, Armagon said:

At least you can use it in Awakening.

You call that piddly little agricultural tool an axe

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I've seen people theorize that's because the youngest was the only one born after the Miracle of Darna, and Holy Blood is not added retroactively.

Of course, that's just headcannon, but it's as good as any explanation until disproven or confirmed.

Makes sense.  The possibility that the Crusaders could've had children prior to blood-bonding with the dragons never occurred to me.

[Zasplach]

3 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I thought I heard somewhere that only one's firstborn can have Major Holy Blood, but that can't be right as Hezul had multiple children, the youngest of whom was his only Major Blood carrier.  So I don't know.

...I was afraid of something like that when I came up with this idea, but it had more to do with how the Holy Blood Rings could possibly be created and why certain families have them when others don't.  I figure it would be about as contrived as the Deeprealms in Fates.

But I want my Helswath dangit!

Just one person's opinion, I also like house Dozel and would enjoy having Helswath.  

 

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I've seen people theorize that's because the youngest was the only one born after the Miracle of Darna, and Holy Blood is not added retroactively (especially when you take into account two of the crusaders were siblings).

Of course, that's just headcannon, but it's as good as any explanation until disproven or confirmed.

Even under that headcannon though, it doesn't explain why the oldest doesn't always inherit major holy blood.  Corple being the prime example of the younger child inheriting major holy blood, eg if Lewyn is his father he gets major Holy blood and Holstey, but Leen is the elder child.  

I think the only consensus that the game can allow us to draw is that only one child can inherit major holy blood and that it's random based on how inheritance worked in the second generation.  

[Acacia Sgt]

16 minutes ago, Zasplach said:

Even under that headcannon though, it doesn't explain why the oldest doesn't always inherit major holy blood.  Corple being the prime example of the younger child inheriting major holy blood, eg if Lewyn is his father he gets major Holy blood and Holstey, but Leen is the elder child.  

I think the only consensus that the game can allow us to draw is that only one child can inherit major holy blood and that it's random based on how inheritance worked in the second generation.  

It's hard to say, considering we're going into game mechanics here. It's the same thing with Faval and Patty. Both they and Leen and Corple have reveresed inheritance compared to the rest of the kids (firstborn inherits from mother rather than father). So the question is... if Leen and Faval weren't the firstborns, or didn't shared their respective mothers' classes, would they still inherit from them? After all, with Faval it means you're never locked out of the Yewfelle/Icheival so long you pair Briggid.

But it's true that even without it there's still inconsistencies. I'm pretty sure it's stated Ishtar is younger than Ishtor but she's the one with Major Tordo, for example. (Don't vouch me on that, I don't remember if Ishtar is really the younger sibling)

Edited October 18, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Interdimensional Observer]

10 minutes ago, Zasplach said:

I think the only consensus that the game can allow us to draw is that only one child can inherit major holy blood and that it's random based on how inheritance worked in the second generation. 

Actually, Ayra had two elder half-siblings: Prince Mariccle, father of Shannan, and Galzus's Mother. We don't know if they were twins or not, but both had Major Odo Blood.

Holy Blood inheritance appears like genetics to be totally random (well not true chaos, but difficult for humans to predict even with science). It also appears Minor Blood can fade away over successive generations, while Major Blood won't, or it takes so long a time to weaken that we never see it in FE4.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[Zasplach]

6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Actually, Ayra had two elder half-siblings: Prince Mariccle, father of Shannam, and Galzus's Mother. We don't know if they were twins or not, but both had Major Odo Blood.

Holy Blood inheritance appears like genetics to be totally random (well not true chaos, but difficult for humans to predict with science). It also appears Minor Blood can fade away over successive generations, while Major Blood won't, or it takes so long a time to weaken that we never see it in FE4.

Or Galzus' father also had minor holy blood and it mixed to make major holy blood like when Arya and Holyn are together and both their children get major holy blood.

Edit: In fact I find this likely because Galzus' father is the chief/count of Rivough and the way it appears to work in Issach is all the chiefs/counts have some relation to Odo, just like Holyn who is the son of the ruler of Sophara 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Zasplach

[Acacia Sgt]

To be fair, is it stated that all three are full-blood siblings? Considering things, Ira could only be the half-sister of Maricle and Galzus's mother. It's Jugdral, after all...

Edited October 18, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

To be fair, is it stated that all three are full-blood siblings? Considering things, Ira could only be the half-sister of Maricle and Galzus's mother.

Ayra and Maricle are confirmed to be half siblings in the Treasure artbook- according to this old quiz. Galzus's Mother's level of relatedness, I don't know, but if someone could translate the relevant section in the 20th Anniversary Encyclopedia, that might clarify things.

[Dandy Druid]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

I liked how not every Holy Weapon was unavailable to the player. However, a good compromise would be, with the rings equipped, the respective Holy Weapon would be able to be used but it'll be less powerful than when used by a natural-born Major Holy Blood uses them.

I still want them to fully explain how Holy Blood works though. Why do some people only get Minor Holy Blood while other members in the same family get Major Holy Blood?

I still don't get how Edain and Brigid are IDENTICAL twins but only one has major holy blood...

The other set of twins don't have this problem.

 

Now for my opinions on this topic: I don't know. Maybe for a New Game +. I feel like the first time around the other holy weapons shouldn't be available, mainly because having both sides having holy weapons adds to one of the overarching themes of the game: Absolute power corrupts. The Holy Blood descendants are powerful, but due to different perspectives and levels of desire, they are now fighting against each other for dominance. This theme is also indicative in Alvis' reign; he starts out as a pretty good ruler, but gets corrupted over time, leading the empire into turmoil and strife.

I feel like giving the player all of the holy weapons the first time around is sort of weird- considering this theme- if we had all the holy weapons, then that means the only ones left to be corrupted is us. But the game doesn't end with tales of corruption so the theme takes a dead stop. I'm emphasizing the first time because players are more likely to be invested into the story. On a New Game+, you're not as worried about the story and just play it for fun.

[Tetragrammaton]

I'd like to see a FE4 sequel, where all Celice and Julia's descendants are running around with Minor Loptous, awaiting for one day, a Major Loptous will be born.

Or maybe more than just one Major Loptous, and they are fighting for their claim to the throne.

[Von Ithipathachai]

7 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Now for my opinions on this topic: I don't know. Maybe for a New Game+. I feel like the first time around the other holy weapons shouldn't be available, mainly because having both sides having holy weapons adds to one of the overarching themes of the game: Absolute power corrupts. The Holy Blood descendants are powerful, but due to different perspectives and levels of desire, they are now fighting against each other for dominance. This theme is also indicative in Alvis' reign; he starts out as a pretty good ruler, but gets corrupted over time, leading the empire into turmoil and strife.

I feel like giving the player all of the holy weapons the first time around is sort of weird- considering this theme- if we had all the holy weapons, then that means the only ones left to be corrupted is us. But the game doesn't end with tales of corruption so the theme takes a dead stop. I'm emphasizing the first time because players are more likely to be invested into the story. On a New Game+, you're not as worried about the story and just play it for fun.

That might be the best way to do things while keeping the quality of the story somewhat intact.  Honestly, if FE Switch is going to have Child Units like Awakening and Fates, then they're probably better off restricted to New Game+ as well.

At any rate, I thought of another possible solution: Anyone with the right Holy Blood can wield a Holy Weapon, but they would have to have Major Blood to take advantage of its stat bonuses.  This might be a good way to balance more potentially broken Holy Weapons that were originally enemy-only without having to resort to the use of contrived plot rings.  For example, if this idea was used, Iuchar and Iucharba would be able to wield Helswath, but wouldn't get the +20 Defense and +10 Resistance a Major Blood user would.  Likewise, in the remake, it could be explained that the strength of the Loptyr tome is directly linked to Loptyr's spirit residing within, and that he would only be able to inhabit vessels with sufficiently strong Holy Blood (as Minor Blood would not provide him with enough "room", so to say).  Hence, people with only Minor Loptyr Blood cannot use it at all.

[Dandy Druid]

9 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

That might be the best way to do things while keeping the quality of the story somewhat intact.  Honestly, if FE Switch is going to have Child Units like Awakening and Fates, then they're probably better off restricted to New Game+ as well.

At any rate, I thought of another possible solution: Anyone with the right Holy Blood can wield a Holy Weapon, but they would have to have Major Blood to take advantage of its stat bonuses.  This might be a good way to balance more potentially broken Holy Weapons that were originally enemy-only without having to resort to the use of contrived plot rings.  For example, if this idea was used, Iuchar and Iucharba would be able to wield Helswath, but wouldn't get the +20 Defense and +10 Resistance a Major Blood user would.  Likewise, in the remake, it could be explained that the strength of the Loptyr tome is directly linked to Loptyr's spirit residing within, and that he would only be able to inhabit vessels with sufficiently strong Holy Blood (as Minor Blood would not provide him with enough "room", so to say).  Hence, people with only Minor Loptyr Blood cannot use it at all.

 I really like this idea. It makes me sad that Lana and Nanna gets screwed over not being able to use the Blaggi Staff if Claude is their father. A lot of the 2nd Gen females get screwed over not being able to wield a holy weapon, imo. 
Thinking back on my New Game + idea- I like it more now because FE4 gave you score at the end of each playthrough and I can see the addition of getting the other holy weapons being necessary for an S or SS rank

[Sunwoo]

20 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

I still don't get how Edain and Brigid are IDENTICAL twins but only one has major holy blood...

The other set of twins don't have this problem.

If you're talking about Larcei and Ulster, according to SF's FE4 page if you marry Ayra to either Claude or Levin (I'm aware people won't, but bear with me) then Ulster inherits Major Blaggi or Holsety while Larcei inherits only minor of those two. If Ayra marries Holyn both kids get Major Odo because both parents had minor Odo, same case with Sylvia and Claude -- both kids get Major Blaggi because both parents had Blaggi.

There really doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to how holy blood is inherited. It just is.

[Sartek]

On 18/10/2017 at 4:55 AM, Zasplach said:

Or Galzus' father also had minor holy blood and it mixed to make major holy blood like when Arya and Holyn are together and both their children get major holy blood.

Edit: In fact I find this likely because Galzus' father is the chief/count of Rivough and the way it appears to work in Issach is all the chiefs/counts have some relation to Odo, just like Holyn who is the son of the ruler of Sophara 

To be frank, this practice is stated in the game to be banned.

[Zasplach]

1 hour ago, Sartek said:

To be frank, this practice is stated in the game to be banned.

There's the villager in Silesia who says it's highly taboo, but there isn't a commission or inquisition that enforces these rules and clearly it happens, look at all the minor pairings the game pushes the player towards.  Besides, the game implies that Issach is backwaters ish and not as civilized as Grandbell, so stuff like this could happen.

[Dandy Druid]

23 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

If you're talking about Larcei and Ulster, according to SF's FE4 page if you marry Ayra to either Claude or Levin (I'm aware people won't, but bear with me) then Ulster inherits Major Blaggi or Holsety while Larcei inherits only minor of those two. If Ayra marries Holyn both kids get Major Odo because both parents had minor Odo, same case with Sylvia and Claude -- both kids get Major Blaggi because both parents had Blaggi.

There really doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to how holy blood is inherited. It just is.

Well that's messed up. At least Ulster can be better than his sister in a couple more (not that good) pairings.

[Nobody]

On 18/10/2017 at 12:50 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

We don't know if they were twins or not, but both had Major Odo Blood.

Edain and Briggid are identical twins and only one of them has major holy blood, so this doesn't have any relation to it.

I read somewhere that Ayra is Mariccle's half sibling. Maybe he and his brother (Mareeta's grandfather) both having major holy blood could be explained by both their parents having Odo holy blood, like it happens if you marry Ayra to Chulainn or Claude to Sylvia.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Nobody

[qwernst]

For blood inheritance, I thought of it like genes, where certain kids get it or as a dominant or recessive.

As usual, I see a lot of cool ideas and theories.