Shadows of Valentia's story: how to fix it

[The Snek Lord]

50 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Wow;  that's a really good idea, and it's about changing the story so that the conqueror villain is possessed... After Fates, I did not expect anyone to say a story would be better if a villain were possessed by a maddened dragon. And yet, it is a good idea.

It's just an idea to keep Rudolf in the story. Like if he died then there would be no need for a revel. So think how amazing it would (probably) be if after Alm defeats Rudolf, the possession wears thin then Rudolf basically say something like "Alm....is that....you" "I'm happy...that you are....well" (IDK something along those lines) then he dies because Duma don't mess around. Then Alm like "huh...why does Rudolf know my name" Then Mycen tells Alm that Rudolf is his dad and Alm gets upset story continues as planned.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 10/18/2017 at 2:11 AM, blah the Prussian said:

In my opinion, Shadows of Valentia is the best written FE game. It has the most potential of any game in the series to have a great story. This, of course, makes it all the more tragic that it ultimately fell short. So, here are my ideas to improve the story.

I really have no idea how you can consider SoV the best-written FE game unless by "written" you're just focusing on prose and/or dialogue or something because its plot is absolutely riddled with serious flaws (many of which have been addressed by your and snek's proposed rewrites, all of which would do the plot favours in my mind).

One change I strongly feel should be made regardless of what else is done is that Jedah needed to be charismatic. This means he both had to have a face you could trust (so... the total opposite of his current design) and his words would have to be such that you can reasonably buy Celica (who isn't generally portrayed as stupid otherwise) believing him.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

One change I strongly feel should be made regardless of what else is done is that Jedah needed to be charismatic. This means he both had to have a face you could trust (so... the total opposite of his current design) and his words would have to be such that you can reasonably buy Celica (who isn't generally portrayed as stupid otherwise) believing him.

A little bit of illusion magic could go a long way. Celica trusts Jedah when he has a facade of average to good looks and more behaved manners, then as soon as her soul begins to depart from her body, cue the Lovecraftian ugliness!

[Jotari]

I'd rather Judah keep his current design but just not be needlessly evil. The first time you meet him and he suggests Celica sacrificing her one life for the good of the entire continent is good stuff. It's actually a really reasonable request. The issue is that from there he immediately tries to kill your friends and his entire motivation (and what he needs to get it) completely flip flops. Keep him as an enemy ruler with unsavory practices but someone you could conceivably work with because he knows what's going on and has clear motivations so you know where you stand with him. 

[vanguard333]

13 hours ago, The Snek Lord said:

It's just an idea to keep Rudolf in the story. Like if he died then there would be no need for a revel. So think how amazing it would (probably) be if after Alm defeats Rudolf, the possession wears thin then Rudolf basically say something like "Alm....is that....you" "I'm happy...that you are....well" (IDK something along those lines) then he dies because Duma don't mess around. Then Alm like "huh...why does Rudolf know my name" Then Mycen tells Alm that Rudolf is his dad and Alm gets upset story continues as planned.

I understand. I was being serious when I said it was a good idea. I was just surprised that an idea to improve a story by suggesting that a king/emperor is actually possessed by a mad dragon, is a good idea after Fates handled such an idea so poorly. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

Edited October 21, 2017 by vanguard333

[blah the Prussian]

17 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I really have no idea how you can consider SoV the best-written FE game unless by "written" you're just focusing on prose and/or dialogue or something because its plot is absolutely riddled with serious flaws (many of which have been addressed by your and snek's proposed rewrites, all of which would do the plot favours in my mind).

One change I strongly feel should be made regardless of what else is done is that Jedah needed to be charismatic. This means he both had to have a face you could trust (so... the total opposite of his current design) and his words would have to be such that you can reasonably buy Celica (who isn't generally portrayed as stupid otherwise) believing him.

Well, I don't have a high opinion of FE game's writing in general. Parts One and Two of Radiant Dawn and whichever Sacred Stones Route had Lyon actually being subtle and keeping some mystery as to how much was him and how much was Formotiis and the extent to which he could control Formotiis were better written than SOV but those games both had other parts that dragged them down considerably. On the whole I don't think there is a single FE story I would consider good.

[The Snek Lord]

8 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I understand. I was being serious when I said it was a good idea. I was just surprised that an idea to improve a story by suggesting that a king/emperor is actually possessed by a mad dragon, is a good idea after Fates handled such an idea so poorly. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

Nah Man, I was just explaining why I though so. Just wanted to share, and get some input lol.

Maybe the Possession could come from Jedah using Rudolf as some sort of front (don't know the right word).

If everyone in Rigel knew that Rudolf charged Duma tower, Jedah could have possessed Rudolf (I believe Jedah has the power) to keep the country from falling apart and then said something along the lines of "Rudolf has been shown Duma's Truth etc etc" or have the Possessed Rudolf say he apologizes, IDK something. 

Edited October 21, 2017 by The Snek Lord

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, The Snek Lord said:

Nah Man, I was just explaining why I though so. Just wanted to share, and get some input lol.

Maybe the Possession could come from Jedah using Rudolf as some sort of front (don't know the right word).

If everyone in Rigel knew that Rudolf charged Duma tower, Jedah could have possessed Rudolf (I believe Jedah has the power) to keep the country from falling apart and then said something along the lines of "Rudolf has been shown Duma's Truth etc etc" or have the Possessed Rudolf say he apologizes, IDK something. 

Okay. I think the term you're looking for is puppet ruler. My suggestion would be that Rudolf is possessed by Duma, but Jedah is there to keep said possession from being too obvious, which only gets increasingly difficult as Duma becomes more and more mad.

[Jotari]

Possessing Rudolf is a bit too big an alteration in my book. And would kind of deny him an actual character similar to Garon. The best thing to do is simply acknowledge in universe that his plan, while well meaning, was batshit.

[teddie]

Not something that has much to do with the story, but I feel as if I would've liked the game more if it stuck closer to the original character designs and overall aesthetics of the original, I just sorta wish it had the same kinda vibe of the original entry and not feel like an entirely different game. Even then, I can't say I dislike most the new designs, I find them quite nice looking.

Edited October 22, 2017 by teddie

[blah the Prussian]

I have to echo Jotari here; a possessed Rudolf I'd say goes too close to my main pet peeve with FE-that everything the villains do isn't really there fault, it's the fault of some evil dragon. I'd say having Rudolf do this plan but acknowledge it was bad could get into a lot of interesting stuff, like how he was really trying to feel as if he was doing something rather than actually doing something productive.

[The Snek Lord]

Alright everyone is hammering the possession thing (which is alright) so how about this.

Let's say Rudolf is actively fighting his possession, so you get moments where he isn't possessed and moments where he is.

Yea possession was pretty dumb in fates but I think if done right it would be pretty interesting. If you don't like the idea that is completely fine.

So an Idea just happened: What if Rudolf's possession broke when he was wielding the Falchion to kill Mila. He didn't want to be possessed again so he put on a act. Rudolf while putting on an act was still trying to come up with a plan for Alm to kill Duma because he was stuck. So at this point any plan Rudolf made would be either rushed, not thought out, etc. Basically putting all his hopes on his son because he knows he can't defeat Duma (since he already tried). So ummm...Yea, how about that. I makes the possession only necessary to keep a civil war or coup or something horrid in Rigel to not happen so Rigel can later get in a war with Zofia.

Edited October 22, 2017 by The Snek Lord

[Kalken]

Everyone, the obvious method to fix Rudolf's plot is to make Mila and her Church more flawed (and on the other hand, rewritng Duma's Church). We're told that Mila and Duma were both responsible for the state of Valencia, but what actually happens is that everybody you meet from Mila's Church is more or less on the side of light, almost everybody you meet from Duma's Church is either a mustache twirling baby eater or a soulless puppet, neither Lima or Desaix were tied to Mila in the way Rigelian villains like Berkut or Jedah are (Desaix even belittles Mila), the backstory paints Duma as the worst between himself and his sister (see him going to war against Naga), and Mila saves the day in the end.

[Harvey]

The only characters who I really have mixed issues here is Berkut and Celica.

Neither of them learn from their mistakes or consider other things in mind. Berkut follows your typical villain obsessed with power for no reason. 

He plays well but its hard to like his role in the overall plot.

Then you have Celica...a more controversial side I think.

She also doesn't learn much from her flaws and instead of trying to make things better, she makes them worse by simply not talking to his friends about her deal with Jedah and being very stubborn with Alm all of a sudden and just leaving like that.

Those flaws are admittedly part of her character true but despite that, she learns nothing from all the flaws she did.

 

[NekoKnight]

Here are some changes I would make.

Alm and Celica: Alm should be more ruthless and cold to his enemies, seeking retribution for wrongs without thinking about a long term peace. Imagine this introduction: at the beginning of the chapter one, Berkut tracks down Mycen in Ram village and challenges him to a fight to prove he's better than Zofia's greatest warrior. Mycen is gravely wounded which inspires Alm to join the Deliverance and defeat the Rigelians he's convinced are all evil people.

Celica would conversely be too passive, thinking humans are helpless without the gods and be critical of Alm's lack of plan for a lasting peace. Rather than have them break up immediately after their reunion, they should spend most of chapter 3 fighting in the same army and only split apart when it's clear their idealogical differences are too great.

Rudolf: I hear the argument that making Rudolf posessed would deny him character depth, but his existing plan isn't flawed, it's as batshit insane as Azura's "Valla Throne Ploy". I approve of @The_Snek_Lord's suggestion. The only thing I'd change there is Mila's anger at Duma (it's a good element that she sealed Falchion because she didn't want Rudolf/Alm to kill Duma).

Fernand and Berkut: I'd have Fernand stay loyal to Zofia but turn his back on the Deliverance after Clive starts promoting commoners to high ranking positions. Fernand would form his own army with bluebloods but be defeated and slain by Berkut. Berkut (having defeated both Mycen and Fernand) would be much more formidable. The rest of his story would be much the same, where he degrades himself with Nuibaba's magic and then again later when he sacrifices Rinea.

Jedah: Jedah would do his best to get on Celica's good side by protecting Alm from attacks by the other Duma faithful (the brand bearers having powerful souls to consume is canon). He'd tell her that she can restore Duma by sacrificing her soul (a lie, it will just make Duma stronger, not saner), to which Celica reluctantly agrees.

Alm/Berkut and Celica/Jedah as foils: Alm would be on the warpath like Berkut but over time he would soften up and learn compassion from Celica. Where Berkut sacrifices others for his own power, Alm would sacrifice something of himself to protect the people he cares about. Celica and Jedah would both be godly people who believe humanity can't exist without gods. Where Celica wants peace, Jedah wants the chaos that the insane Duma would bring, thinking that any world crafted in his image would be a good one. Celica's character development would be accepting the end to the age of gods and fighting to build the world she wants to see.

Rigel's situation: One of the biggest flaws of the story is how unlikely it would be for Zofia to defeat Rigel (the former is suffering from monster attacks, famine, a civil war and are characterized as lazy hedonists). To fix this, I would make the monster situation (courtesy of the insane Duma) in Rigel far worse, with them having to devote a lot of their soldiers just for securing their own citizens.

Edited October 26, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Seazas]

Alm killed Duma because he was forced due to the dragon curse and he was far gone. How does that make Alm a dick?

It's the very same reason why Rudolf downed Mila early and wanted to follow the prophecy as well. I prefer Duma and Mila being connected to Naga because it makes more sense and it explains the existence of the Valentian falchion. 

I prefer Berkut how he was, the entire point of him was falling from grace honestly. 

The entire point of Celica was to make a mistake, pay for it (with her allies not slipping it under the rug but instead calling her out on this and some of her other risky decisions) and she grows and regrets her actions in Act 5 after you save her. The way she raised, she believed there was no future without gods. Mila was a gamebreaker and Zofia would've ended up okay if Celica got her back. I like the fact that she's more of a flawed protag than a well balanced one. 

[blah the Prussian]

56 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Alm killed Duma because he was forced due to the dragon curse and he was far gone. How does that make Alm a dick?

 

Because Alm makes a bunch of grand proclamations about how, despite the fact that killing Duma means that an unprecedented level of manual labor will be needed to prevent famine, to the point where the Emperor himself needs to be on the fields working instead of administering the country, it's a price he's willing to pay without consulting everyone else. It seems like a pretty monumental decision to make amongst your group of less than 100 people.

1 hour ago, Peaceful_User said:

I prefer Berkut how he was, the entire point of him was falling from grace honestly. 

 

Right, and here he'd still fall from grace, it would just have a more central focus in the plot. It would also tie into the last line about humans being just as bad as Gods.

1 hour ago, Peaceful_User said:

The entire point of Celica was to make a mistake, pay for it (with her allies not slipping it under the rug but instead calling her out on this and some of her other risky decisions) and she grows and regrets her actions in Act 5 after you save her. The way she raised, she believed there was no future without gods. Mila was a gamebreaker and Zofia would've ended up okay if Celica got her back. I like the fact that she's more of a flawed protag than a well balanced one. 

Writing a flawed protagonist for the sake of being flawed is bad writing. They have to be flawed in a way that actually makes sense; for example, Peter Parker in Spiderman 3 makes a bunch of bad decisions but its written so poorly that honestly it would have been better had he been a boy scout. The same applies here.

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, blah the Prussian said:

Because Alm makes a bunch of grand proclamations about how, despite the fact that killing Duma means that an unprecedented level of manual labor will be needed to prevent famine, to the point where the Emperor himself needs to be on the fields working instead of administering the country, it's a price he's willing to pay without consulting everyone else. It seems like a pretty monumental decision to make amongst your group of less than 100 people.

Right, and here he'd still fall from grace, it would just have a more central focus in the plot. It would also tie into the last line about humans being just as bad as Gods.

Writing a flawed protagonist for the sake of being flawed is bad writing. They have to be flawed in a way that actually makes sense; for example, Peter Parker in Spiderman 3 makes a bunch of bad decisions but its written so poorly that honestly it would have been better had he been a boy scout. The same applies here.

He literally stood up and was willing to work just as hard if not harder in the fields to provide food if he had to. 

Humans being bad as the gods...? That would make zero sense, because they're supposed to be independent from the gods, the gods aren't bad but completely relying on them has proven to the destruction of a lot of things. 

Celica has context to back her up, she comes to regret how she acts in Act 5 and accepts Alm's offer to help take down Duma. Which is something she never would've done earlier on because she was believing what she was raised to believe in. 

[blah the Prussian]

53 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

He literally stood up and was willing to work just as hard if not harder in the fields to provide food if he had to. 

 

Still makes making that decision for all of humanity quite arrogant.

53 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Humans being bad as the gods...? That would make zero sense, because they're supposed to be independent from the gods, the gods aren't bad but completely relying on them has proven to the destruction of a lot of things. 

 

I believe the ending has it say "conflict will happen in the future because humans are as bad as gods" or something like that.

54 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Celica has context to back her up, she comes to regret how she acts in Act 5 and accepts Alm's offer to help take down Duma. Which is something she never would've done earlier on because she was believing what she was raised to believe in. 

This would be correct if Jeddah wasn't so cartoonishly evil. If his argument was convincing it could work quite well; as it stands he provides no proof whatsoever for his claims. Being religious doesn't make you a moron.

[Seazas]

11 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said:

Still makes making that decision for all of humanity quite arrogant.

I believe the ending has it say "conflict will happen in the future because humans are as bad as gods" or something like that.

This would be correct if Jeddah wasn't so cartoonishly evil. If his argument was convincing it could work quite well; as it stands he provides no proof whatsoever for his claims. Being religious doesn't make you a moron.

Just for the sake of Valentia since he is the king now and Duma was mad. 

No, as long as there's darkness in human hearts. Alm managing to secure lasting peace for literally thousands of years. His decision was the reason Valentia survived.

She was desperate and no other options showed, it was the only lead to Mila and she regrets it immensely. So it's not like she's willing to repeat the same mistake. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

Still makes making that decision for all of humanity quite arrogant.

I believe the ending has it say "conflict will happen in the future because humans are as bad as gods" or something like that.

This would be correct if Jeddah wasn't so cartoonishly evil. If his argument was convincing it could work quite well; as it stands he provides no proof whatsoever for his claims. Being religious doesn't make you a moron.

All of the this. If Jeddah had an ounce of nuiance then it would fix like 95% of the problems in Celica's story. He can still be evil, just not so ridiuclously untrustworthy.

[Seazas]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

All of the this. If Jeddah had an ounce of nuiance then it would fix like 95% of the problems in Celica's story. He can still be evil, just not so ridiuclously untrustworthy.

Yes but at least we can come up with a solid conclusion with Celica regardless than just writing her off as dumb which is really unfair if you refuse to see it from her perspective. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Yes but at least we can come up to a solid conclusion with Celica regardless than just writing her off as dumb which is really unfair and you refuse to see it from her perspective. 

You need to do a grammar check on that sentence. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Seazas]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You need to do a grammar check on that sentence. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Better?

 

17 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Yes but at least we can come up with a solid conclusion with Celica regardless than just writing her off as dumb which is really unfair if you refuse to see it from her perspective. 

 

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Better?

 

 

A solid conclusion of what and regardless of what?