Shadows of Valentia's story: how to fix it

[Seazas]

Just now, Jotari said:

A solid conclusion of what and regardless of what?

Like coming to an understanding that Celica fucked up because of the way she was born and letting it go? Especially since she moves past it and grows and comes to regret that. She even believes in Duma's ideals at the end.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Like coming to an understanding that Celica fucked up because of the way she was born and letting it go? Especially since she moves past it and grows and comes to regret that. She even believes in Duma's ideals at the end.

Eh...yeah. I wasn't disputing that point. I was saying that Judah is a cackling maniac who actively talks about ushering in an era of chaos and tries to kill her friends yet she still trusts him. The problem lies not with her being an idiot, but with Judah being completely over the top in his villiany.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

On 10-1-2018 at 11:14 PM, Jotari said:

Eh...yeah. I wasn't disputing that point. I was saying that Judah is a cackling maniac who actively talks about ushering in an era of chaos and tries to kill her friends yet she still trusts him. The problem lies not with her being an idiot, but with Judah being completely over the top in his villiany.

But Jedah being over the top is also a very late thing. In their initial talk Jedah is far more reasonable then he has any reason to be. Despite having Mila hostage and saying he won't ever stop hunting Celica if she says no he also takes the effort to explain why he does what he does and how everyone will benefit if Celica just agrees. 

I think that if he kept that up rather then cackling the moment Celica is trapped in his tower that a lot of problems with Celica's story would disappear. 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But Jedah being over the top is also a very late thing. In their initial talk Jedah is far more reasonable then he has any reason to be. Despite having Mila hostage and saying he won't ever stop hunting Celica if she says no he also takes the effort to explain why he does what he does and how everyone will benefit if Celica just agrees. 

I think that if he kept that up rather then cackling the moment Celica is trapped in his tower that a lot of problems with Celica's story would disappear. 

I agree, he's very reasonable in the first conversation. But even from the second, he starts actively attacking the party saying he has no need for Celica's friends. Coupled with the fact that he has no proof to his claims, that's when I would start questioning wether this guy who actively enslaves people has my best interests at heart. I'm not sure how to rectify that without removing the first Jedah boss fight though, which I guess they wanted to keep for legacy sake (and I must confess, I'm actually really against reusing boss fights in Fire Emblem games, but when it comes to Jedah, I can see the sense in it as it gives the player a glimpse at his unique defensive gimmick, dropping that on them in the middle of the final battle would be too cheap).

[Seazas]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

I agree, he's very reasonable in the first conversation. But even from the second, he starts actively attacking the party saying he has no need for Celica's friends. Coupled with the fact that he has no proof to his claims, that's when I would start questioning wether this guy who actively enslaves people has my best interests at heart. I'm not sure how to rectify that without removing the first Jedah boss fight though, which I guess they wanted to keep for legacy sake (and I must confess, I'm actually really against reusing boss fights in Fire Emblem games, but when it comes to Jedah, I can see the sense in it as it gives the player a glimpse at his unique defensive gimmick, dropping that on them in the middle of the final battle would be too cheap).

Didn't Celica show not to trust him and specifically points out he'll need to show Mila? Leading to them being trapped in Duma Tower because they had a lead with something. Plus it's canon that Celica didn't know how to kill Jedah but she tried when he attacked them. "Kehehehehehe your struggling is most precious!" 

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Didn't Celica show not to trust him and specifically points out he'll need to show Mila? Leading to them being trapped in Duma Tower because they had a lead with something. Plus it's canon that Celica didn't know how to kill Jedah but she tried when he attacked them. "Kehehehehehe your struggling is most precious!" 

Yeah, Celica greets him initally with sceptisism, but inexplicably seems to trust him more as he increasingly displays his evil. Culminating in this,

Jedah: Aaah hah hah ha ha ha! Alm and Anthiese… You stand at the pinnacle of your respective kingdoms. The hour is come for the world of man to return to the gods’ control! It is the dawn of an age of fear and chaos, cradled in Duma’s shadow!

Alm: We’ll never let that happen.

Jedah: Rejoice, Anthiese, for you have the honor of serving as its cornerstone!

Alm: Celica? What is he talking about?

Celica: I’m sorry, Alm… This is the only way. There’s no other choice…

Jedah literally says he wants to use her to usher in an age of fear and chaos (which he'd accomplish better with Duma insane so I don't even know what his game is) and she thinks it's a good idea to just go along with whatever he promises. And, sure enough, he was lying about ever bringing Mila back at all and always intended to kill Alm, which she should know as Jedah has already tortured her by showing her Alm's suffering at this point and knows he has the brand and knows that it's super useful to them.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Jotari

[vanguard333]

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎10 at 5:14 PM, Jotari said:

Eh...yeah. I wasn't disputing that point. I was saying that Judah is a cackling maniac who actively talks about ushering in an era of chaos and tries to kill her friends yet she still trusts him. The problem lies not with her being an idiot, but with Judah being completely over the top in his villiany.

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎12 at 8:27 PM, Jotari said:

Jedah literally says he wants to use her to usher in an age of fear and chaos (which he'd accomplish better with Duma insane so I don't even know what his game is) and she thinks it's a good idea to just go along with whatever he promises. And, sure enough, he was lying about ever bringing Mila back at all and always intended to kill Alm, which she should know as Jedah has already tortured her by showing her Alm's suffering at this point and knows he has the brand and knows that it's super useful to them.

I thought that the whole, "Usher in an age of fear and chaos" wasn't Jedah's ambition, but what he interpreted Duma's to be in Duma's maddened state. When I was playing the game, I thought he was saying that he was willing to see Duma bring it about if it meant Duma still being alive. He knows Duma is mad, he knows Duma will bring about such an age, and he doesn't care. At least, that's how I interpreted it. 

When Jedah offers the deal with Celica, he says, "Duma seeks power vast enough to destroy all balance in the world." Not only that, but the line specifically about the "age of fear and chaos" is this:

Jedah: Alm and Anthiese… You stand at the pinnacle of your respective kingdoms. The hour is come for the world of man to return to the gods’ control! It is the dawn of an age of fear and chaos, cradled in Duma’s shadow!

I don't think it's his ambition, but what he sees as what will come with Duma kept alive, what is his ambition is ensuring Duma remains in power. Later, this exchange even happens:

Alm: Stand down, Jedah! Your schemes end here and now. Prepare to pay for your atrocities!

Jedah: Rudolf’s worthless spawn… You’re both disgusting heretics. How dare you wish harm on Duma!

Celica: Open your eyes, Jedah. No matter how it pains you, you must see the truth. Duma’s gone mad—he brings only suffering to his people now. This is the divine dragons’ fate.

Jedah: Silence, girl! You know nothing of what you speak. And if suffering is the gods’ will, what of it? Without their strength at its foundation, Valentia cannot sustain life.

 

Rather than cackling villain, Jedah should have just been a fanatic priest villain; believing just like Celica that humanity can't survive without Duma and/or Mila, but being willing to go way too far just to try to keep Duma alive.

How Jedah knew Alm had the brand is definitely something that should have been explained. Villains seemed to know too much in this game for no explained reason, like Desaix somehow deducing that Alm is Rudolf's son just from knowing Mycen never had kids. Wasn't it supposed to be a secret that Rudolf had a son? How did Desaix figure it out? Same with Jedah finding out about Alm having the brand, and Jedah finding out Alm was Rudolf's son for that matter. The whole point of Alm being hidden away in Zofia was so that Jedah wouldn't find out about Alm.

[thecornerman]

If you wanted to keep Conrad in the story, you could use him to get Celica to learn of Duma, his faithful, and the state of the gods.

[Jotari]

On 1/20/2018 at 4:31 PM, vanguard333 said:

I thought that the whole, "Usher in an age of fear and chaos" wasn't Jedah's ambition, but what he interpreted Duma's to be in Duma's maddened state. When I was playing the game, I thought he was saying that he was willing to see Duma bring it about if it meant Duma still being alive. He knows Duma is mad, he knows Duma will bring about such an age, and he doesn't care. At least, that's how I interpreted it. 

When Jedah offers the deal with Celica, he says, "Duma seeks power vast enough to destroy all balance in the world." Not only that, but the line specifically about the "age of fear and chaos" is this:

Jedah: Alm and Anthiese… You stand at the pinnacle of your respective kingdoms. The hour is come for the world of man to return to the gods’ control! It is the dawn of an age of fear and chaos, cradled in Duma’s shadow!

I don't think it's his ambition, but what he sees as what will come with Duma kept alive, what is his ambition is ensuring Duma remains in power. Later, this exchange even happens:

Alm: Stand down, Jedah! Your schemes end here and now. Prepare to pay for your atrocities!

Jedah: Rudolf’s worthless spawn… You’re both disgusting heretics. How dare you wish harm on Duma!

Celica: Open your eyes, Jedah. No matter how it pains you, you must see the truth. Duma’s gone mad—he brings only suffering to his people now. This is the divine dragons’ fate.

Jedah: Silence, girl! You know nothing of what you speak. And if suffering is the gods’ will, what of it? Without their strength at its foundation, Valentia cannot sustain life.

 

Rather than cackling villain, Jedah should have just been a fanatic priest villain; believing just like Celica that humanity can't survive without Duma and/or Mila, but being willing to go way too far just to try to keep Duma alive.

How Jedah knew Alm had the brand is definitely something that should have been explained. Villains seemed to know too much in this game for no explained reason, like Desaix somehow deducing that Alm is Rudolf's son just from knowing Mycen never had kids. Wasn't it supposed to be a secret that Rudolf had a son? How did Desaix figure it out? Same with Jedah finding out about Alm having the brand, and Jedah finding out Alm was Rudolf's son for that matter. The whole point of Alm being hidden away in Zofia was so that Jedah wouldn't find out about Alm.

Oh wow, never saw this reply. Yeah, that interpretation might have worked, only it's a bit undermined by the fact that Jedah is clearly scheming with plans and goals in mind. It's not exactly clear what he wants (other than the domination of Doma), but he does want something. If Doma's safety was the only thing that matter then he'd be considerably less active since, well, Doma's already won by the start of the game thanks to Mila's actions. Jedah believes that Doma is completely invincible and undefeatable thanks Falchion being sealed away. He has no real need to try and manipulate Celica or worry about Alm. Feeding them to Duma might make him stronger, but why would an evangenical, Duma obsessed, Jedah even care about making his god more powerful when his god is already the uncontested master of the land? I guess it's possible he was working under orders from Duma to feed him the branded, and possibly Duma wanted more power just for it's own sake (or maybe, more interestingly, to invade Archenea some day). But there's little to suggest that with how disapointingly little screen time Duma actually gets.

[Etrurian emperor]

I wrote something like this before but I think the story could benefit a great deal if Rudolf's plan to end the reign of the gods was a much bigger conspiracy with a lot more people pulling strings behind the shadows. If Clive was part of Rudolf's conspiracy(Perhaps through being Mycen's former squire) it could give an additional reason for him to push for Alm being the leader since it would mean elevating a pawn in their scheme and Rigellian generals being implied to lose on purpose to further Rudolf's plans could give an explanation about why Alm was able to turn around the war so quickly.

Celica's story could be fixed by just removing that bit where Jedah cackles about creating a world of chaos. Just let him stick to his words on him just wanting to cure his lords and Alm not being willing to accept sacrificing Celica for a god they have already decided they don't need. 

[vanguard333]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh wow, never saw this reply. Yeah, that interpretation might have worked, only it's a bit undermined by the fact that Jedah is clearly scheming with plans and goals in mind. It's not exactly clear what he wants (other than the domination of Doma), but he does want something. If Doma's safety was the only thing that matter then he'd be considerably less active since, well, Doma's already won by the start of the game thanks to Mila's actions. Jedah believes that Doma is completely invincible and undefeatable thanks Falchion being sealed away. He has no real need to try and manipulate Celica or worry about Alm. Feeding them to Duma might make him stronger, but why would an evangenical, Duma obsessed, Jedah even care about making his god more powerful when his god is already the uncontested master of the land? I guess it's possible he was working under orders from Duma to feed him the branded, and possibly Duma wanted more power just for it's own sake (or maybe, more interestingly, to invade Archenea some day). But there's little to suggest that with how disappointingly little screen time Duma actually gets.

He may think Duma was unbeatable, but he still wanted the brand bearers in order to sate Duma's degeneration. If you recall, his degeneration and feasting for power was so far that it wasn't just mental; he had become a literal rotting shell of what he used to be.

Plus, the falchion may be sealed away by Mila, but the brand bearers are still prophesised to bring the end of both Mila and Duma. Even if the only weapon for defeating Duma is sealed up in Mila's skull, it is easy to understand him wanting to get rid of two prophesized threats to Duma. His schemes and plans are getting rid of the threats to Duma in such a way that Duma (and, by extension, Jedah) directly benefits.

Jedah: Keh heh heh… How hopeless a fool can you be? Rejoice, Lord Duma! I have brought the Brand-bearer who threatens your order. Take her soul unto you and feast!

I agree that Duma's screen time is limited, and that the game could have been a bit more clear on his and Jedah's ambitions.

[RJWalker]

I don't think Alm needs a character arc. Sometimes, you want a nice guy character who does nice guy things. Not every protagonist needs a flaw that they need to overcome. I especially think this because I don't think most people actually want characters in fictions to have flaws. Not really. They want characters with superficial flaws that are easy to overcome, not actual flaws, like Celica. The moment we see something like Celica, people dogpile on that character because of their serious flaws.

I also completely disagree with OP's suggestion about Berkut. That sounds terrible. Berkut works just wonderfully as a character who has it all but loses it all, sometimes through circumstances out of his control but sometimes due to his own actions. I like his fall from grace.

I think Rudolf's plan is great. It doesn't need to be changed at all.

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, RJWalker said:

I don't think Alm needs a character arc. Sometimes, you want a nice guy character who does nice guy things. Not every protagonist needs a flaw that they need to overcome. I especially think this because I don't think most people actually want characters in fictions to have flaws. Not really. They want characters with superficial flaws that are easy to overcome, not actual flaws, like Celica. The moment we see something like Celica, people dogpile on that character because of their serious flaws.

I also completely disagree with OP's suggestion about Berkut. That sounds terrible. Berkut works just wonderfully as a character who has it all but loses it all, sometimes through circumstances out of his control but sometimes due to his own actions. I like his fall from grace.

I think Rudolf's plan is great. It doesn't need to be changed at all.

Problem is, we've had a character that does nice guy things for like a dozen games now. Almost all the lords in the series are generic nice guys. The furthest they've really detracted from that is by making one or two of them brash. I'm not quite saying all the protagonists are identical, but they are cut from the same cloth, so to speak. Alm was an opportunity to do something really different personality wise, and they squandered it in favour of a character that completely lacks defining traits. At least that's the way I see it.

[RJWalker]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Problem is, we've had a character that does nice guy things for like a dozen games now. Almost all the lords in the series are generic nice guys. The furthest they've really detracted from that is by making one or two of them brash. I'm not quite saying all the protagonists are identical, but they are cut from the same cloth, so to speak. Alm was an opportunity to do something really different personality wise, and they squandered it in favour of a character that completely lacks defining traits. At least that's the way I see it.

But Alm is refreshing. He's not Corrin, a flawed character that everyone praises regardless. He's not Chrom, a flawed character who almost learns and improves but completely throws away all of his character development at the last moment. He's not Micaiah, a flawed character who will go to extreme lengths to save her people that is actually written well unlike the the previous two losers I mentioned. He's almost like Ike but unlike Ike, his personality isn't separated into two different characters (Soren and Titania) leaving the actual protonist extremely boring. He's not like Ephraim, a brash idiot who has to learn that his recklessness won't work after the war is over and he has to learn to become a better king. He's like Eirika, I guess. We finally got a character that Alm is similar too and it took going back 6 games to get there. But even then, Eirika has flaws that negatively affect the protagonists' goals.

I like that Alm isn't a flawed character who has to learn from his flaws. That's well and good but sometimes, I just want a character who's just so likable and enthusiastic who doesn't really have any flaws he has to learn from. The idea that every character needs a flaw to overcome is just silly.

Edited February 24, 2018 by RJWalker

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, RJWalker said:

But Alm is refreshing. He's not Corrin, a flawed character that everyone praises regardless. He's not Chrom, a flawed character who almost learns and improves but completely throws away all of his character development at the last moment. He's not Micaiah, a flawed character who will go to extreme lengths to save her people that is actually written well unlike the the previous two losers I mentioned. He's almost like Ike but unlike Ike, his personality isn't separated into two different characters (Soren and Titania) leaving the actual protonist extremely boring. He's not like Ephraim, a brash idiot who has to learn that his recklessness won't work after the war is over and he has to learn to become a better king. He's like Eirika, I guess. We finally got a character that Alm is similar too and it took going back 6 games to get there. But even then, Eirika has flaws that negatively affect the protagonists' goals.

I like that Alm isn't a flawed character who has to learn from his flaws. That's well and good but sometimes, I just want a character who's just so likable and enthusiastic who doesn't really have any flaws he has to learn from. The idea that every character needs a flaw to overcome is just silly.

Alm isn't identical to any of the other characters in the series. I explicitly said that. But if you took Alm and swapped him with Corrin or Eliwood or practically any other lord in the series, how would the story change? What decisions would he make that Marth would make differently? And it's not like Fire Emblem has overused the idea that characters need to overcome flaws. I mean, how exactly does Ephraim learn to be less reckless? What in the story causes him to develop? What about Marth? His flaw would be that he's  too softhearted for war, yet that never once actually hinders him or interfere with his progress in the wars. Hell Ike's entire character arc is that he doesn't develop and his opinions towards people and war remain the same despite people's expectations. The only protagonists in the series that really have a serious flaw that they need to overcome is Leif, whose lack of confidence causes him to make a lot mistakes in trying to prove he's capable enough to lead.

[RJWalker]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Alm isn't identical to any of the other characters in the series. I explicitly said that. But if you took Alm and swapped him with Corrin or Eliwood or practically any other lord in the series, how would the story change? What decisions would he make that Marth would make differently? And it's not like Fire Emblem has overused the idea that characters need to overcome flaws. I mean, how exactly does Ephraim learn to be less reckless? What in the story causes him to develop? What about Marth? His flaw would be that he's  too softhearted for war, yet that never once actually hinders him or interfere with his progress in the wars. Hell Ike's entire character arc is that he doesn't develop and his opinions towards people and war remain the same despite people's expectations. The only protagonists in the series that really have a serious flaw that they need to overcome is Leif, whose lack of confidence causes him to make a lot mistakes in trying to prove he's capable enough to lead.

I find questions such as "what would x character do" in this situation to be completely pointless. Characters are shaped by their experiences. Transplanting a character from setting to another means nothing and doesn't provide for meaningful discussion. 

 

Ephraim's victories all come from the fact that the Valter is specifically toying with him. Ephraim has to confront his recklessness when Seth outright tells him that the people of Renais are not cheering because of his return but for the hope that the future is better and that Ephraim will have to change for that future to happen. Marth has to confront the notion that he must set aside his personal grief for the sake of his people, that he is a prince before he is a son or a brother. I could go on. My point is not that these characters have super serious flaws (in fact, I actually stated earlier that most people don't really even want flawed characters but think they do). My point is that Alm has no flaws and that's fine. That's not a failure of writing nor is it a missed oppurtunity because Alm feels extremely refreshing after several protagonists that have minor flaws they eventually overcome (or not, in the case of Chrom and Corrin).

[Jotari]

37 minutes ago, RJWalker said:

I find questions such as "what would x character do" in this situation to be completely pointless. Characters are shaped by their experiences. Transplanting a character from setting to another means nothing and doesn't provide for meaningful discussion. 

 

Ephraim's victories all come from the fact that the Valter is specifically toying with him. Ephraim has to confront his recklessness when Seth outright tells him that the people of Renais are not cheering because of his return but for the hope that the future is better and that Ephraim will have to change for that future to happen. Marth has to confront the notion that he must set aside his personal grief for the sake of his people, that he is a prince before he is a son or a brother. I could go on. My point is not that these characters have super serious flaws (in fact, I actually stated earlier that most people don't really even want flawed characters but think they do). My point is that Alm has no flaws and that's fine. That's not a failure of writing nor is it a missed oppurtunity because Alm feels extremely refreshing after several protagonists that have minor flaws they eventually overcome (or not, in the case of Chrom and Corrin).

Ephraim, you might have a point, I can't remember because if it is then it's not that big a part of the story. But Marth distinctly never has to learn to set aside his feelings. Being too emotional is never an issue for Marth. He's able to set aside his feelings from the outset (even before the outset, in the prologue).

Idon't disagree with you that characters can't be perfect, in fact I even made a thread discussing that very point.

But for, Alm is just unremarkable. The reason I talk about swapping characters is because a really distinct rice character word change the plot. Another, basically all round perfect (aside from his stats) protagonist, that I like, is Roy, who is always right and never makes mistakes. But with Roy, if you transplanted him into a different setting, it generally would lead to different results. Roy is calmer than most lords. He considers all his options carefully and isn't afraid to ask for help. This generally comes as a detriment to Merlinus, as useually it's an advisor that leads the protagonist down the path of wisdom. You're perfectly fine liking Alm, but the reason I don't like him (or rather, I'm indifferent to him) is that there's nothing to him. What traits do you like about him? That he's a nice guy? They're all generally nice people, the lords. If Alm's compassion was actually a defining trait then that could be interesting. The only thing he really has is determination, but even that lacks flavor as he beats Rigel really easily without his determination ever becoming an important factor.

[RJWalker]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Ephraim, you might have a point, I can't remember because if it is then it's not that big a part of the story. But Marth distinctly never has to learn to set aside his feelings. Being too emotional is never an issue for Marth. He's able to set aside his feelings from the outset (even before the outset, in the prologue).

Idon't disagree with you that characters can't be perfect, in fact I even made a thread discussing that very point.

But for, Alm is just unremarkable. The reason I talk about swapping characters is because a really distinct rice character word change the plot. Another, basically all round perfect (aside from his stats) protagonist, that I like, is Roy, who is always right and never makes mistakes. But with Roy, if you transplanted him into a different setting, it generally would lead to different results. Roy is calmer than most lords. He considers all his options carefully and isn't afraid to ask for help. This generally comes as a detriment to Merlinus, as useually it's an advisor that leads the protagonist down the path of wisdom. You're perfectly fine liking Alm, but the reason I don't like him (or rather, I'm indifferent to him) is that there's nothing to him. What traits do you like about him? That he's a nice guy? They're all generally nice people, the lords. If Alm's compassion was actually a defining trait then that could be interesting. The only thing he really has is determination, but even that lacks flavor as he beats Rigel really easily without his determination ever becoming an important factor.

I would say that Alm does have distinguishing characteristics. Being raised in a tiny village and being forbidden from leaving has given him an intense desire to see the world which we see immediately. He also has a deep longing for a proper family which is why he's upset over losng family he didn't even know. Yeah, he's compassionate but he's not blind to reality. We see him ready to execute Berkut shortly before Berkut uses Nuibaba's trinket. Executing an unarmed and defeated enemy is not something any protagonist has done or attempted. Killing when the opponent refuses to back down, sure but never an attempted execution of a completely beaten and defenceless enemy. And this is born entirely out of pragmatism, not vengeance or bloodlust. He's also very emotional, as I already discussed with how upset he is over Rudolf and Berkut's deaths. Balancing these aspects of being emotional, headstrong and rash, pragmatic but compassionate is difficult but Alm manages that wonderfully.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, RJWalker said:

I would say that Alm does have distinguishing characteristics. Being raised in a tiny village and being forbidden from leaving has given him an intense desire to see the world which we see immediately. He also has a deep longing for a proper family which is why he's upset over losng family he didn't even know. Yeah, he's compassionate but he's not blind to reality. We see him ready to execute Berkut shortly before Berkut uses Nuibaba's trinket. Executing an unarmed and defeated enemy is not something any protagonist has done or attempted. Killing when the opponent refuses to back down, sure but never an attempted execution of a completely beaten and defenceless enemy. And this is born entirely out of pragmatism, not vengeance or bloodlust. He's also very emotional, as I already discussed with how upset he is over Rudolf and Berkut's deaths. Balancing these aspects of being emotional, headstrong and rash, pragmatic but compassionate is difficult but Alm manages that wonderfully.

Does he though? Because this is exactly what I want from Alm, but we feel didn't get. I don't don't think it's clear he's about to kill a defenseless Berkut. We go straight from the battle to the cutscene. I see that as a continuation of of the fight, that Alm and Berkut are still fighting. There's no cg of Berkut kneeling on the ground weaponless or text of him begging for mercy.  

[RJWalker]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Does he though? Because this is exactly what I want from Alm, but we feel didn't get. I don't don't think it's clear he's about to kill a defenseless Berkut. We go straight from the battle to the cutscene. I see that as a continuation of of the fight, that Alm and Berkut are still fighting. There's no cg of Berkut kneeling on the ground weaponless or text of him begging for mercy.  

I think the intention is clear that Berkut has been defeated and has no choice but to resort to Nuibaba's charm:

Berkut: Nrgh… No… Am I to lose again? AGAIN?!

(After the battle)

Berkut: Nnngh… Damn you.

Alm: You’re plenty strong, Berkut. No one would deny that. But that’s why I must end this here.

Berkut: I can’t believe it’s come to this…

After the spell is broken:

Fernand: Lord Berkut! The spell is broken, but they haven’t the strength to give chase. You must use this time to escape.

Berkut: You would have me retreat in the face of these dogs?!

Even after the spell is broken, Berkut still has to retreat. Lukas makes it clear that pursuing would mean further losses, meaning several soldiers lost their lives due to the spell. So even with that, Alm's forces still had enough of an upper hand and forced Berkut to retreat.

So the intent is clear. Berkut was completely defeated. He may have been kneeling on the ground with Alm placing a sword to his neck but the intent is the same: Berkut was completely defeated and Alm was fully ready to execute him.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, RJWalker said:

I think the intention is clear that Berkut has been defeated and has no choice but to resort to Nuibaba's charm:

Berkut: Nrgh… No… Am I to lose again? AGAIN?!

(After the battle)

Berkut: Nnngh… Damn you.

Alm: You’re plenty strong, Berkut. No one would deny that. But that’s why I must end this here.

Berkut: I can’t believe it’s come to this…

After the spell is broken:

Fernand: Lord Berkut! The spell is broken, but they haven’t the strength to give chase. You must use this time to escape.

Berkut: You would have me retreat in the face of these dogs?!

Even after the spell is broken, Berkut still has to retreat. Lukas makes it clear that pursuing would mean further losses, meaning several soldiers lost their lives due to the spell. So even with that, Alm's forces still had enough of an upper hand and forced Berkut to retreat.

So the intent is clear. Berkut was completely defeated. He may have been kneeling on the ground with Alm placing a sword to his neck but the intent is the same: Berkut was completely defeated and Alm was fully ready to execute him.

 I don't think so at all. To our it in Fire Emblem terms, I see Berkut as at 1HP and deciding to use his Command Skill. He's certainly about to lose the battle, but that doesn't mean he's defenseless. After all, if he truly was defenseless, then Alm wouldn't incur any losses by pursuing his retreat. Lukas' words confirm that Berkut and his men are fully capable of fighting further in defense of their lives (as does the second comment you quoted, Berkut doesn't want to retreat and has to be convinced by Fernand to do so. This means he sees fighting to the death as realistic option. Ergo, he is still able and willing to fight).

Edited February 25, 2018 by Jotari

[RJWalker]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

 I don't think so at all. To our it in Fire Emblem terms, I see Berkut as at 1HP and deciding to use his Command Skill. He's certainly about to lose the battle, but that doesn't mean he's defenseless. After all, if he truly was defenseless, then Alm wouldn't incur any losses by pursuing his retreat. Lukas' words confirm that Berkut and his men are fully capable of fighting further in defense of their lives (as does the second comment you quoted, Berkut doesn't want to retreat and has to be convinced by Fernand to do so. This means he sees fighting to the death as realistic option. Ergo, he is still able and willing to fight).

Someone's HP dropping to zero has always meant that they are completely defeated. At most, the character still has strength enough to retreat. Pursuing would incur further losses because their troops are injured and would require medical care. Retreating also would allow Berkut's forces to recover and get a bearing again. 

Berkut is defeated and Alm is ready to kill him. The intent is very clear.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, RJWalker said:

Someone's HP dropping to zero has always meant that they are completely defeated. At most, the character still has strength enough to retreat. Pursuing would incur further losses because their troops are injured and would require medical care. Retreating also would allow Berkut's forces to recover and get a bearing again. 

Berkut is defeated and Alm is ready to kill him. The intent is very clear.

Yes, Berkut has lost the fight, but that's not the same as him being at Alm's mercy. I think the dialogue makes it extremely clear that he is able to continue fighting should he chose to do so. He's been backed into a corner (metaphorically speaking) and is forced to use the backup plan he doesn't want to risk. He has, as you put it, at least enough strength to retreat. I think if he was meant to be at Alm's mercy, with Alm having complete control over his life or death, then they should have made that clearer and actually shown it. Because as I see it, what they did provide is the equivalent of "You're finished!" "Grr. No I'm not. Take this!" If you envision that scene as Berkut on his knees and Alm's sword at his neck, then fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[vanguard333]

On ‎2018‎-‎02‎-‎24 at 4:23 AM, RJWalker said:

I don't think Alm needs a character arc. Sometimes, you want a nice guy character who does nice guy things. Not every protagonist needs a flaw that they need to overcome. I especially think this because I don't think most people actually want characters in fictions to have flaws. Not really. They want characters with superficial flaws that are easy to overcome, not actual flaws, like Celica. The moment we see something like Celica, people dogpile on that character because of their serious flaws.

A character arc doesn't need a flaw. Here's a link to a good article on the subject:

https://ellenbrockediting.com/2015/08/05/novel-boot-camp-2-creating-deep-realistic-characters/

A character arc just needs a character belief that molds, changes, or develops over the course of the character arc. For Alm, that could have been something like how much value he places on the next battle; an arc that reaches its climax when he unwittingly kills his father as part of his father's own twisted plan born from a similar way of thinking, and Alm realizes that he can't hack and slash every problem, or something like that. 

As for Celica, it has less to do with her flaw, and more with how the writer's botched their attempt to use it effectively in the story. Speaking of Celica, for her, her belief would be that the Zofians need Mila; an arc that culminates in her believing a lie told to her by a similarly (but much more fanatically) devout believer, only for Duma, and gets turned into a witch as a result; culminating in her realizing with Mila's final words that maybe yeah; the time of Mila and Duma has reached its end, and only destruction can come from trying to artificially prolong them.

They had a good formula in place: Celica is too dependant on Mila, while Alm gets too caught up in thinking of the next battle, and both learn to balance each other. But they really botched the execution of it.

[FionordeQuester]

So, this seems as good a thread as any to ask.

What the heck happened with Celica's soul?

Like, I know Duma took it away...but then Alm stabbing her with Falchion made it alright again.  So did Falchion/Mila just give her a new one?  Did Duma still have the soul he took from her (and that's why he was lucid enough to say farewell to Alm and Celica)?  Or did Falchion just somehow take Celica's soul back from Duma?  

That part really confused me, emotionally heartwarming though it was.

Edited March 25, 2018 by FionordeQuester