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Playing FE4 for the First Time


Mandokarla
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So I started playing FE4 for the first time a few days ago, and I am thouroughly enjoying it. I only just cleared chapter two, and there are some things I actually like a lot about the game's ambitious design choices, and so far I've found that the writing (willing to cut some slack due to potential loss of meaning or nuance in the translation) to be better than pretty much every other FE game I've played or watched a playthrough of -- aside from probably the Tellius games for plot, and I love the characters of Sacred Stones. Considering the resources at the time of this game's development, they tried some really ambitious things, and I feel like they did quite well with what they had at the time. 

I actually really enjoy the massive maps that span half a country. It makes me feel like I'm actually leading a campaign into a foreign nations, it makes betrayals and support by other castles/factions within those maps feel more impactful and immediate than, say, everything about Iago in Conquest. It makes the game take a lot longer per chapter, but there are significantly fewer chapters to balance that out. Being able to repair weapons and abuse the arena is nice too, though probably not great challenge wise (unless the difficulty spikes later on, which I hope it does). 

I enjoy the OST a lot, the player phase music so far hasn't been as active as the newer games, because of the longer maps. Its pretty chill, and that helps it be relaxing and makes it more enjoyable for me. 

Sigurd is over-fucking-powered, as is Quan to an extent, but I don't really mind that. I've already been spoiled as to some things plotwise, so I'd appreciate nobody dropping spoilers in the responses. I like some of the class decisions, like troubadours getting swords -- even though that kinda doesn't make a ton of sense, it's fun. The game is pretty strongly cavalry-emblem, but there are a few non-mounted units that I feel are strong enough to slow down for (Deirdre, Ayra the Goddess, Llewyn), and I like how the characters so far seem to be non-tropey. Cavalry units feel like the harassing, in-and-out mobile attacking force that they were in actual history, and as bad for balance as that is, it feels good to use. 

So far, my biggest gripe with the game is the total lack of a trading mechanic. It's just tedious and annoying and unfun. The way skills work is interesting, and I'm not sure I like it or not. Doubling and Crits being locked to skills feels unnatural to me, but some skills are interesting -- it feels like this system was a template for the FE9/10 skill system. 

So far, I'm loving the game. I would, with only what I've played so far, happily buy an Echoes remake of this, because the ambitions of this game could be fully realized by modern tech resources -- and that would be a pleasure to see.

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It is wonderful that you are liking the game so far! Indeed, several gameplay features (huge maps, inventory management, love system not transparent enough, etc.) have been offputting to some players.

It is great that this isn’t stopping you! Genealogy is a really good game and certainly worth playing. I loved it when I played it. And I’m in a progress of a repeat playthrough, too!

I would like a remake of Genealogy very much too, but only if it stays as faithful to the original as Shadow Dragon, New Mystery, and Shadows of Valentia have been. The “quirks” are what makes Genealogy Genealogy, after all.

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33 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

 

So far, my biggest gripe with the game is the total lack of a trading mechanic. It's just tedious and annoying and unfun.

Hi, not sure if you're aware of this, but there is a way to trade, by pawning away weapons and buying them back with others, you'll end up lower in funds, but it can be done if you want to. Anyway, great that you're loving it!

 

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Currently in the same boat as you, about 1/4 through chapter 3.

Kantoing to setup other people to attack is glorious and dancers being able to dance 4 people at once both makes escaping tough encounters with your life possible and healing everyone afterwards so much less of a pain.

The villages act as timers that kinda force you to move out even when not 100% prepared so you can save them. 

Skill ring, silver sword, Sword master Ayra is insane cause she procs Astra every other attack.

The castle town mechanic is a suitable replacement for a world map as a way to have downtime between battles. 

Weapon variants being direct upgrades of eachother is literally every way is a godsend. 

The way you get brave weapons is weird and I missed the axe. 

Being forced to use the only flying unit to take out the ballista in chapter 2 was a cool way to make you feel super smart.

The no trading rule is unfortunate but it isn't the end of the world cause there are ways around it.

The ability to save every turn makes a pseudo Milla's turnwheel and combine that with Kanto and 4-at-once dancing makes it so no matter the situation there's always a way out with everyone surviving and pulling that off is just the best feeling.

Overall it's a pretty good game.

Edited by Greencapps
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11 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Hi, not sure if you're aware of this, but there is a way to trade, by pawning away weapons and buying them back with others, you'll end up lower in funds, but it can be done if you want to. Anyway, great that you're loving it!

 

I'm aware of the pawnbroker mechanic, it's just bad. 

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28 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

I'm aware of the pawnbroker mechanic, it's just bad. 

Agreed. I hated the Pawn Shop during my time with FE4.

I do want a FE4 remake (though i do think Binding Blade should get it first) but mainly so it can improve the gampeplay. FE4's story is amazing but the same cannot be said about the gameplay. I have many, many problems with FE4's gameplay and it's my least favorite game in the series because of it. This is why i want a remake so i can fully be able to enjoy Genealogy.

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I'm glad you're enjoying the game - because that is something that could not be said of me. Hell, the mechanics, particularly the pawn shop and individual money BS, among other things, drag the game down to the point of being outright unplayable imho.

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I've personally never had problems with individual money. Sure it's weird but it's never prevented me from progressing. The pawnbroker system is irritating but again it has never made progression impossible. Maybe this'll change once I get farther in the game but it's hardly worth hating the game over IMO.

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1 hour ago, Greencapps said:

I've personally never had problems with individual money. Sure it's weird but it's never prevented me from progressing. The pawnbroker system is irritating but again it has never made progression impossible. Maybe this'll change once I get farther in the game but it's hardly worth hating the game over IMO.

You would have a point... that is, if those were my only gripes with the game, which, unfortunately, is anything but the case. Aside from those, you have the bloated maps that are the epitome of terrible map design (ESPECIALLY chapter 2, which is backtracking heavy, and chapter 7, which is the worst desert map in the series, or at least down there) and make it a huge slog to play through. The unit balance is also absolutely laughable, with units that have either a horse, Pursuit, or a holy weapon automatically being better than units without them. And then there's the equally laughable balance between weapon types - simply put, swords and wind magic rule, axes and fire magic drool. As if that weren't enough, you have a bunch of other obnoxious and frustrating mechanics, as well as a bunch of Guide Dang It stuff, which happens to include stuff that could exponentially boost a unit's usefulness. On top of all this, there's the children - everyone and their grandma seems ready to heap praise on Genealogy for implementing the kids in the story... and completely ignore the fact that from a gameplay perspective, they were really poorly implemented.

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30 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You would have a point... that is, if those were my only gripes with the game, which, unfortunately, is anything but the case. Aside from those, you have the bloated maps that are the epitome of terrible map design (ESPECIALLY chapter 2, which is backtracking heavy, and chapter 7, which is the worst desert map in the series, or at least down there) and make it a huge slog to play through. The unit balance is also absolutely laughable, with units that have either a horse, Pursuit, or a holy weapon automatically being better than units without them. And then there's the equally laughable balance between weapon types - simply put, swords and wind magic rule, axes and fire magic drool. As if that weren't enough, you have a bunch of other obnoxious and frustrating mechanics, as well as a bunch of Guide Dang It stuff, which happens to include stuff that could exponentially boost a unit's usefulness. On top of all this, there's the children - everyone and their grandma seems ready to heap praise on Genealogy for implementing the kids in the story... and completely ignore the fact that from a gameplay perspective, they were really poorly implemented.

Personally I like FE4's open maps, but that comes down to personal preference. Can't speak for Ch 7 as I haven't got there yet but a desert map in a calvary heavy game with no dismount sounds like a pain. Sure there are objectively better characters and weapon types but I have yet to find a completely useless char. Sure to have an optimal run you need a guide but so does every RPG and it's certainly doable without one. These seem more like nitpicks than game breaking flaws. 

Also hating a game for it being over rated is not a good argument.

Edited by Greencapps
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1 hour ago, Greencapps said:

Personally I like FE4's open maps, but that comes down to personal preference. Can't speak for Ch 7 as I haven't got there yet but a desert map in a calvary heavy game with no dismount sounds like a pain. Sure there are objectively better characters and weapon types but I have yet to find a completely useless char. Sure to have an optimal run you need a guide but so does every RPG and it's certainly doable without one. These seem more like nitpicks than game breaking flaws. 

Also hating a game for it being over rated is not a good argument.

Correction: they're simply nitpicks to you, but they're huge turnoffs to me. And sure, RPGs in general have always had stuff that needs to be looked up, particularly those in the Tales series, but in a game like this, where I might wind up losing an hour of play time if something goes wrong, that's something extra that I have to deal with on top of the usual pressures that FE has. In terms of characters, I'd say Arden, Hannibal, and Corple (and by extension Sharlow) all come close to being useless, because they have low movement in a game where movement is king (in the case of the former two) or come late as level 1 healers (the latter two).

And where did I say FE4 was overrated? Point it out to me. Oh wait, that's right, you can't, because I didn't say it was overrated.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And where did I say FE4 was overrated? Point it out to me. Oh wait, that's right, you can't, because I didn't say it was overrated.

 

8 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

everyone and their grandma seems ready to heap praise on Genealogy for implementing the kids in the story... and completely ignore the fact that from a gameplay perspective, they were really poorly implemented.

Pretty sure you did.

Also chill I'm not attacking you. I just don't agree with you.

In my experience I've never had to backtrack to the point of losing hours of gameplay and I don't use a guide. Sure some characters come close to useless but I never claimed that every unit was super useful, I said none are completely useless.

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1 hour ago, Greencapps said:

 

Pretty sure you did.

Also chill I'm not attacking you. I just don't agree with you.

In my experience I've never had to backtrack to the point of losing hours of gameplay and I don't use a guide. Sure some characters come close to useless but I never claimed that every unit was super useful, I said none are completely useless.

No, I was more referring to this thread, where Genealogy gets an overwhelming majority... with nobody bothering to explain how it was done better from a gameplay perspective, only looking at the part where they were involved in the story. Hell, the only comments about kids in Genealogy that were gameplay related portrayed it in a negative light, with one even saying that its implementation wasn't much better than that of Fates, which everyone is so quick to criticize.

As far as units not being completely useless, those four I named earlier are enough for me to say otherwise. As for not needing a guide, like I stated earlier, there are items out there that you likely wouldn't get unless you used a guide or were otherwise tipped off (like the Brave Axe mentioned below, or the Pursuit Ring, which only Arden can get).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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58 minutes ago, Greencapps said:

In my experience I've never had to backtrack to the point of losing hours of gameplay and I don't use a guide.

There's no backtracking to that extent in FE4 but i really hate Ch.2 for making me backtrack through a field of nothing. As for guides, you don't really need them that much for FE4 but there are certain items that you won't know how to get in FE4 unless you use a guide. Like, how the fuck is anyone supposed to know that in Ch.1, Lex is supposed to stand in a exact spot near the big lake in order to get a Brave Axe? Only Lex can do it and tbh, he kinda sucks without that Brave Axe.

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Ok personally I like the hidden item stuff. Sure they're pretty much impossible to find without a guide but that's the kinda shit that SNES and NES games are known for and it adds a certain level of charm. And again they are still useable without them. Not as useable maybe but useable and aren't required to beat the game in the slightest. You going back to get those is on you and not the game forcing you to do so. I do get how missing them could be super irritating though along with the whole concept.

Yea the ch2 backtrack is kinda a pain but at leat there's stuff going on while you go back. Not perfect mind you, but, imo, not as bad as you're making it out to be.

Perhaps it's not the case but it certainly sounded like you disliked the child units because they were overrated. I'm curious though why do you think they were implemented poorly?

Edited by Greencapps
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5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You would have a point... that is, if those were my only gripes with the game, which, unfortunately, is anything but the case. Aside from those, you have the bloated maps that are the epitome of terrible map design (ESPECIALLY chapter 2, which is backtracking heavy, and chapter 7, which is the worst desert map in the series, or at least down there) and make it a huge slog to play through. The unit balance is also absolutely laughable, with units that have either a horse, Pursuit, or a holy weapon automatically being better than units without them. And then there's the equally laughable balance between weapon types - simply put, swords and wind magic rule, axes and fire magic drool. As if that weren't enough, you have a bunch of other obnoxious and frustrating mechanics, as well as a bunch of Guide Dang It stuff, which happens to include stuff that could exponentially boost a unit's usefulness. On top of all this, there's the children - everyone and their grandma seems ready to heap praise on Genealogy for implementing the kids in the story... and completely ignore the fact that from a gameplay perspective, they were really poorly implemented.

I'm willing to forgive a decent amount of this considering that at the time of the game's creation, the consoles were limited. They had to inflate the playtime (and therefore the "worth") of the game somehow, and the larger maps, hidden items/interactions, and children all extend that -- either literally or through potential replay value. With modern technology and capacity this game could become truly, truly spectacular. 

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Agreed. I hated the Pawn Shop during my time with FE4.

I do want a FE4 remake (though i do think Binding Blade should get it first) but mainly so it can improve the gampeplay. FE4's story is amazing but the same cannot be said about the gameplay. I have many, many problems with FE4's gameplay and it's my least favorite game in the series because of it. This is why i want a remake so i can fully be able to enjoy Genealogy.

I actually think FE4 should get it first, just because FE4 has the most potential to improve with a remake. We already know that Binding Blade remake is a certainty and that they will hype the shit out of it when it does come out. I'll be honest though, I don't know if I'd get an FE6 remake -- I couldn't get through FE6 in its current state because I just can't make myself care about the cast in the beginning. I know the good, interesting characters (Hugh, Niime, Fae) join later, but the earlygame has one interesting character: Rutger -- who literally exists to hate Bern, and that's it. I already care more for the characters in FE4 in the two chapters + prologue than I did in the first six or seven chapters of FE6. 

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13 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

I don't know if I'd get an FE6 remake -- I couldn't get through FE6 in its current state because I just can't make myself care about the cast in the beginning. I know the good, interesting characters (Hugh, Niime, Fae) join later, but the earlygame has one interesting character: Rutger -- who literally exists to hate Bern, and that's it. 

Binding Blade's early game characters are more interesting if you read their Supports. The issue is actually getting the Supports though. Any Support that isn't Roy x Lilina takes ages to actually get. A remake would hopefully fix that.

18 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

I already care more for the characters in FE4 in the two chapters + prologue than I did in the first six or seven chapters of FE6. 

Well, to be fair, 2 Chapters of FE4=6 Chapters of FE6. So it's the same amount of time, basically.

But honestly, i didn't find the FE4 characters to be that interesting. Particularly the male characters. I found the females to be more interesting, and characters like Ayra and Lachesis are among my favorites in the series, though there were a few memorable guys like Ares and Shannon. But if we're talking about not caring about characters, then the FE4 character i care the least about is Sigurd. Props to him for having the most flaws of any Lord.....but my God, i just could not care. He's got such a boring personality. 

Spoiler

Was honestly pretty glad when he got invited to the BBQ.

Now, if we're talking Manga Sigurd, then that's an entirely different story. Manga Sigurd is actually good.

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3 hours ago, Greencapps said:

Ok personally I like the hidden item stuff. Sure they're pretty much impossible to find without a guide but that's the kinda shit that SNES and NES games are known for and it adds a certain level of charm. And again they are still useable without them. Not as useable maybe but useable and aren't required to beat the game in the slightest. You going back to get those is on you and not the game forcing you to do so. I do get how missing them could be super irritating though along with the whole concept.

Yea the ch2 backtrack is kinda a pain but at leat there's stuff going on while you go back. Not perfect mind you, but, imo, not as bad as you're making it out to be.

Perhaps it's not the case but it certainly sounded like you disliked the child units because they were overrated. I'm curious though why do you think they were implemented poorly?

Well, it's true that games back then tended to keep stuff hidden (using a game from the same era as an example, you aren't told about how to uncurse the cursed shield in Final Fantasy 6, or how to save Shadow in said game), but some of the ones in this game can really boost a unit's usability and/or aren't obtainable in the second generation (the Brave Axe is the former, given it's the one axe that doesn't completely suck, and the Knight Ring, Pursuit Ring, and Forseti all fall under the latter). And other than maybe that last one, the relevant characters all take a severe hit to their usefulness without them (this is true of the brave axe, at the very least).

Well, it might not be that bad, but it doesn't help that the one unit that can mitigate the backtracking is a foot unit.

Frankly, it has more to do with the love system being a pain in the ass. For one, you're only given incredibly vague messages, and second, they only measure how close a unit is to falling in love with whoever they happen to have the most points with. This can really suck if I want the unit to fall in love with someone else. Compare to Awakening and Fates, where I have complete control over who marries whom, and thus don't have to worry about all of this, and especially the potential scenario where a unit falls in love with a unit I didn't want them to marry.

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5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Frankly, it has more to do with the love system being a pain in the ass. For one, you're only given incredibly vague messages, and second, they only measure how close a unit is to falling in love with whoever they happen to have the most points with. This can really suck if I want the unit to fall in love with someone else. Compare to Awakening and Fates, where I have complete control over who marries whom, and thus don't have to worry about all of this, and especially the potential scenario where a unit falls in love with a unit I didn't want them to marry.

Oh it's a bit cryptic but it's kinda hard to accidentally have the wrong people fall in love. It might be a little bit or a restriction but I just see that as an added layer of challenge. I do see it being a turn off to some.

I think you're selling the silver Axe a bit short but I see where you're coming from. It seems I've missed all but Forseti from the ones you've mentioned which granted sucks but I still get plenty of use out of Lex and Arden can provide enough extra damage to take out some of the more dangerous enemy phase foes. The knight ring seems kinda meh and I haven't really had trouble with healers. I'm always able to work around the restrictions.

 

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17 minutes ago, Greencapps said:

I think you're selling the silver Axe a bit short but I see where you're coming from. It seems I've missed all but Forseti from the ones you've mentioned which granted sucks but I still get plenty of use out of Lex and Arden can provide enough extra damage to take out some of the more dangerous enemy phase foes. The knight ring seems kinda meh and I haven't really had trouble with healers. I'm always able to work around the restrictions.

 

The brave axe comes more then a full chapter before the silver axe though, it's a pretty big deal.  I think the hidden SNES aspect is just something that people who played those old games were just kind of a given.  And the knight ring is good, like really good, it gives one of your footies (the dancers) canto, the best skill in the whole game.  

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9 hours ago, Greencapps said:

Oh it's a bit cryptic but it's kinda hard to accidentally have the wrong people fall in love.

Lewyn x Sylvia says hi. Iirc, Sylvia starts out with a lot of love points for Lewyn. The issue? I always try to pair up Lewyn and Erynis instead. And i think most people do too. So they have to make esure Sylvia stays away as far as possible from Lewyn until he and Erynis get married.

Edited by Armagon
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