Why did they make Frederick an Axe user?

[Gima]

OK, this is mostly based off of GamExplain's review. If this information turns out to be wildly wrong, feel free to swing your axe at me.

The thing is, according to their review, excluding Sword users, all characters of a certain "type" play identically. So, presumably all fliers fight the same way, and that includes both Caeda/Cordelia/Hinoka and Camilla. Here's the thing: Caeda, Cordelia, and Hinoka are the only lance users in the game. So, if they fight identically to Camilla, if you want a team that covers as many roles as it can with as little overlap as possible, there is no reason to use Camilla when you're forced to use one of the three Pegasus Knights in the game.

Frederick, for some reason, is an Axe user. Every other character in the game who uses a weapon type besides that implied by their stats within the original game is a healer, so it's basically to give them an actual weapon so that they can properly mow down enemies. Why is Frederick an Axe user, then? If they made him a Lance user the problem I would have mentioned before would be solved: you could use Frederick and Camilla together without any overlap.

DLC will likely fix this problem, but it's still irritating for my OCD self to see, since there's no reason besides their stats in Heroes for Frederick to be an Axe user in the first place. Caeda is a Lance user. Why not Frederick?

[Jedi]

9 minutes ago, Gima said:

OK, this is mostly based off of GamExplain's review. If this information turns out to be wildly wrong, feel free to swing your axe at me.

The thing is, according to their review, excluding Sword users, all characters of a certain "type" play identically. So, presumably all fliers fight the same way, and that includes both Caeda/Cordelia/Hinoka and Camilla. Here's the thing: Caeda, Cordelia, and Hinoka are the only lance users in the game. So, if they fight identically to Camilla, if you want a team that covers as many roles as it can with as little overlap as possible, there is no reason to use Camilla when you're forced to use one of the three Pegasus Knights in the game.

Frederick, for some reason, is an Axe user. Every other character in the game who uses a weapon type besides that implied by their stats within the original game is a healer, so it's basically to give them an actual weapon so that they can properly mow down enemies. Why is Frederick an Axe user, then? If they made him a Lance user the problem I would have mentioned before would be solved: you could use Frederick and Camilla together without any overlap.

DLC will likely fix this problem, but it's still irritating for my OCD self to see, since there's no reason besides their stats in Heroes for Frederick to be an Axe user in the first place. Caeda is a Lance user. Why not Frederick?

Camilla fights differently from the Pegasus Knights though like vastly differently. 

Fred is an axe user because they wanted more axe users, it was stated in an interview. 

I wouldn't listen to gameXplain considering they're pure rubbish when it comes to anything non-Zelda.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Jedi

[Gima]

Just now, Jedi said:

Camilla fights differently from the Pegasus Knights though like vastly differently. 

Fred is an axe user because they wanted more axe users, it was stated in an interview.

Count me a liar then. Nvm.

[Anomalocaris]

The best I can reason is that they wanted a horse-mounted axe user and Great Knight is the only modern class that fits that bill, so they decided that Great Knights should wield axes.

The problem is that since they gave Cavaliers/Paladins swords to match Xander, we're left with no lance-wielding horse classes, which is rather odd since lances tend to be more associated with that classline than swords or axes.

[Gima]

For the record, the main reason as to why this mattered in the first place is because I can't imagine a lot of people would want to use two units that fight exactly the same... If they don't then it doesn't really matter much. I don't know why I assumed that all horsemen and fliers fought the same.

Do horsemen and fliers that both use a specific weapon type fight the same, though? Like do Caeda, Cordelia, and Hinoka all fight the same, or do Leo and Elise both fight the same.

[Kazuya]

In my opinion, I see it as more of a "Oh sh*t, we need to have more than 2 axe users, so change Freddy!" type thing. 

[Gima]

Just now, Kazuya said:

In my opinion, I see it as more of a "Oh sh*t, we need to have more than 2 axe users, so change Freddy!" type thing. 

The weird thing is, then we effectively have ONE lance user, because all 3 fight exactly the same -specials and Awakening mode. So it may be a better call to keep Frederick as a Lance user (that's what I would have done.)

[Kazuya]

Just now, Gima said:

The weird thing is, then we effectively have ONE lance user, because all 3 fight exactly the same -specials and Awakening mode. So it may be a better call to keep Frederick as a Lance user (that's what I would have done.)

I wasn't on the dev team, so I can't tell you. But I'm sure there was a logical reason behind it. Freddy in Musou is literally great though, like no complaints from me. 

[YotsuMaboroshi]

44 minutes ago, Gima said:

For the record, the main reason as to why this mattered in the first place is because I can't imagine a lot of people would want to use two units that fight exactly the same... If they don't then it doesn't really matter much. I don't know why I assumed that all horsemen and fliers fought the same.

Do horsemen and fliers that both use a specific weapon type fight the same, though? Like do Caeda, Cordelia, and Hinoka all fight the same, or do Leo and Elise both fight the same.

Yes, you can think of the movesets as FEW's version of classes.  The classes are:

1. OC Lord - Rowan/Lianna (I think Darius also uses this moveset as an UNPC)

2. Lord/Great Lord - Chrom/Lucina

3. Cleric - Lissa

4. Great Knight - Frederick

5. Pegasus Knight - Caeda/Cordelia/Hinoka

6. Infantry Mage - Robin (technically, the UNPCs Gharnef, Iago, and Validar use this moveset as well, but they aren't playable)

7. Swordmaster - Ryoma (UNPC Owain uses this moveset as well)

8. Archer - Takumi/Sakura/Anna (UNPC Niles uses this moveset as well)

9. Malig Knight - Camilla

10. Mounted Mage - Leo/Elise

11. Paladin - Xander

12. Myrmidon - Lyn (NPC Navarre uses this moveset as well) (I don't actually know if this is actually Lyn's class, but it's more or less the traditional FE Myrmidon class)

13. Lord/Lodestar - Marth/Celica (I don't know what this class is technically called, but it's Marth and Celica's moveset)

14. Manakete - Tiki

15. Nohr Princess - Corrin

16. Lancer - No playable characters for this class, but Oboro appears as an UNPC with this class

Within a class, all users have the same normals and charge attacks, but have different Specials, Awakening Specials, and stats to differentiate them.

7 minutes ago, Gima said:

The weird thing is, then we effectively have ONE lance user, because all 3 fight exactly the same -specials and Awakening mode. So it may be a better call to keep Frederick as a Lance user (that's what I would have done.)

There are 3 lance users, even if there's only one lance moveset.  Since there are also 3 archers and 3 axes, they probably wanted each weapon to have at least 3 users for each weapon except for Stones, so that it's harder to lose all users of a specific weapon type in Classic mode.

Edited October 18, 2017 by YotsuMaboroshi

[Lightchao42]

54 minutes ago, Gima said:

The thing is, according to their review, excluding Sword users, all characters of a certain "type" play identically. So, presumably all fliers fight the same way, and that includes both Caeda/Cordelia/Hinoka and Camilla.

You just forgot what the review said. What Derrick said was, "If one character uses a certain mode of transportation, [...], and wields the same weapon, they'll pretty much have the same moveset."

Camilla uses an axe so she has a different moveset from the three Pegasus Knights (whom all play identically). Derrick also mentions that this doesn't apply to sword users, so the entire statement is true.

[Gima]

4 minutes ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

Yes, you can think of the movesets as FEW's version of classes.  The classes are:

1. OC Lord - Rowan/Lianna (I think Darius also uses this moveset as an UNPC)

2. Lord/Great Lord - Chrom/Lucina

3. Cleric - Lissa

4. Great Knight - Frederick

5. Pegasus Knight - Caeda/Cordelia/Hinoka

6. Infantry Mage - Robin (technically, the UNPCs Gharnef, Iago, and Validar use this moveset as well, but they aren't playable)

7. Swordmaster - Ryoma (UNPC Owain uses this moveset as well)

8. Archer - Takumi/Sakura/Anna (UNPC Niles uses this moveset as well)

9. Malig Knight - Camilla

10. Mounted Mage - Leo/Elise

11. Paladin - Xander

12. Myrmidon - Lyn (NPC Navarre uses this moveset as well) (I don't actually know if this is actually Lyn's class, but it's more or less the traditional FE Myrmidon class)

13. Lord/Lodestar - Marth/Celica (I don't know what this class is technically called, but it's Marth and Celica's moveset)

14. Manakete - Tiki

15. Nohr Princess - Corrin

16. Lancer - No playable characters for this class, but Oboro appears as an UNPC with this class

Within a class, all users have the same normals and charge attacks, but have different Specials, Awakening Specials, and stats to differentiate them.

There are 3 lance users, even if there's only one lance moveset.  Since there are also 3 archers and 3 axes, they probably wanted each weapon to have at least 3 users for each weapon except for Stones, so that it's harder to lose all users of a specific weapon type in Classic mode.

 

1 minute ago, Lightchao42 said:

You just forgot what the review said. What Derrick said was, "If one character uses a certain mode of transportation, [...], and wields the same weapon, they'll pretty much have the same moveset."

Camilla uses an axe so she has a different moveset from the three Pegasus Knights (whom all play identically). Derrick also mentions that this doesn't apply to sword users, so the entire statement is true.

Thank you for all of this information.

[Anomalocaris]

5 minutes ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

Yes, you can think of the movesets as FEW's version of classes.  The classes are:

1. OC Lord - Rowan/Lianna (I think Darius also uses this moveset as an UNPC)

2. Lord/Great Lord - Chrom/Lucina

3. Cleric - Lissa

4. Great Knight - Frederick

5. Pegasus Knight - Caeda/Cordelia/Hinoka

6. Infantry Mage - Robin (technically, the UNPCs Gharnef, Iago, and Validar use this moveset as well, but they aren't playable)

7. Swordmaster - Ryoma (UNPC Owain uses this moveset as well)

8. Archer - Takumi/Sakura/Anna (UNPC Niles uses this moveset as well)

9. Malig Knight - Camilla

10. Mounted Mage - Leo/Elise

11. Paladin - Xander

12. Myrmidon - Lyn (NPC Navarre uses this moveset as well) (I don't actually know if this is actually Lyn's class, but it's more or less the traditional FE Myrmidon class)

13. Lord/Lodestar - Marth/Celica (I don't know what this class is technically called, but it's Marth and Celica's moveset)

14. Manakete - Tiki

15. Nohr Princess - Corrin

16. Lancer - No playable characters for this class, but Oboro appears as an UNPC with this class

Honestly these two bug me. I'm okay with the other "clone" movesets since they share a class; in fact I think a class-based moveset system is a good idea that allows for a large roster and could even allow reclassing if refined in a future title. But Archer, Shrine Maiden, and Trickster/Outlaw should not play the same, nor should Dark Knight and Troubador.

[wissenschaft]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Camilla fights differently from the Pegasus Knights though like vastly differently. 

Fred is an axe user because they wanted more axe users, it was stated in an interview. 

I wouldn't listen to gameXplain considering they're pure rubbish when it comes to anything non-Zelda.

Their review sounds quite Hyurle Warriors biased as well. Lets ignore any problems that game had and some vaguely complain about not being into FE warriors as much for some mysterious reason. Sigh.

I could nitpick so much about that GameExplain review but instead I'll just say GamesBrained did a much better and more indepth review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVzQOSbzCyE

Speaking of reviews, my "favorite" so far was just posted by Metro Gaming: http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/18/fire-emblem-warriors-review-almost-mediocre-7009245/

"Fire Emblem has the potential to make a great partner, but this badly made and painfully simplistic crossover is as disappointingly dumb as all the other Dynasty Warriors games."

Ok, who let the Dynasty warrior hater write a review for this game? lol Badly made? The game runs better on the new 3DS then Hyrule Warrior does. Someone has done a comparison video to prove it.

Edited October 18, 2017 by wissenschaft

[Tolvir]

They said in an interview that they needed some more axe users. So they made Frederick an axe wielder. Makes sense, he had the ability to wield it, even if he started out with lances.

Now if only they had the same thought process on lances.

[Anomalocaris]

13 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

They said in an interview that they needed some more axe users. So they made Frederick an axe wielder. Makes sense, he had the ability to wield it, even if he started out with lances.

Now if only they had the same thought process on lances.

I think the best hope for ever getting lance cavalry like Jagen or Silas is for them to just fork the Paladin class into separate Sword Paladin and Lance Paladin classes. That way Xander can keep his sword but other Cavalier-line characters like Jagen or Silas could come in armed with lances.

[Folt]

4 hours ago, Gima said:

The weird thing is, then we effectively have ONE lance user, because all 3 fight exactly the same -specials and Awakening mode. So it may be a better call to keep Frederick as a Lance user (that's what I would have done.)

Presumably, when Cordelia was added (which the data suggests was rather late in development, but not so late as to not integrate her into the story), they had enough Lance users (and she filled in a slot as a Lance user who came in early) that it was affordable to make Frederick into an Axe user.

[guedesbrawl]

4 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

Honestly these two bug me. I'm okay with the other "clone" movesets since they share a class; in fact I think a class-based moveset system is a good idea that allows for a large roster and could even allow reclassing if refined in a future title. But Archer, Shrine Maiden, and Trickster/Outlaw should not play the same, nor should Dark Knight and Troubador.

Mounted Mages and Grounded Bowsmen. There's enough reason for them to play the same.

But if you want the real reason, is that they'd either play the same or not be in the game at all, and we need more staff users (Anna could've gone to hell though, does nothing truly worthwhile).

What bothers me is how they flip-flop between how much PRF weapons influence movesets. Takumi has a clearly wind-based moveset down to his normals and Sakura/Anna have that. But Leo? They did not use his Tree/Earth/Dark/Gravity magic for any moves he could've shared with Elise.

Ryoma and Xander have this going on as well, to lesser extents.

[Anomalocaris]

49 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Mounted Mages and Grounded Bowsmen. There's enough reason for them to play the same.

But if you want the real reason, is that they'd either play the same or not be in the game at all, and we need more staff users (Anna could've gone to hell though, does nothing truly worthwhile).

Oh, I know the reason is time constraints, and I'd rather have them as clones than not have them at all, but it's still disappointing.

Bow Infantry isn't difficult to differentiate though. Using Takumi as the baseline Archer, Sakura's Priestess class should have a slower, more graceful style with fewer jumps and flips but more defensive capabilities, while Anna and Niles' Outlaw/Trickster should be the opposite and jump around everywhere with reckless, quick attacks.

For Elise and the Strategist class in general, there's a crapload of things you can do with magic whether you're mounted or not. Giving her a different element as her basic attack string would be a good start, then for both of them you can start dipping into more unique tomes like Fimbulvetr, Moonlight, and Mjolnir for their combo finishers with little overlap. I'm glad Elise at least has Ginnungagap as her Dual Musou attack while Leo has his Ice Blade.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Anomalocaris

[Legend_of_Zelia]

Well Frederick wielding an axe isn't really new. He wields one in Heroes.
But if he wasn't one in Warriors, it make the amount of axe users less then all the rest. I mean we got 3 axe users, 3 lance users, and 3 tome users.

But I guess even that won't make up for the amount of sword users and the 1 stone user we have.
Plus Frederick looks like he would use an axe very often, like the weapon suits him. But that's what I see for a preferred weapon type for him.

[Folt]

1 hour ago, guedesbrawl said:

Mounted Mages and Grounded Bowsmen. There's enough reason for them to play the same.

But if you want the real reason, is that they'd either play the same or not be in the game at all, and we need more staff users (Anna could've gone to hell though, does nothing truly worthwhile).

What bothers me is how they flip-flop between how much PRF weapons influence movesets. Takumi has a clearly wind-based moveset down to his normals and Sakura/Anna have that. But Leo? They did not use his Tree/Earth/Dark/Gravity magic for any moves he could've shared with Elise.

Ryoma and Xander have this going on as well, to lesser extents.

In Leo's case, this probably has to do with how Tome users are supposed to use every mainline FE element under the book in this game so Brynhildr's capabilities gets used for super attacks instead of regular attacks. Presumably, that could be the standard for Fire Emblem Warriors mages onward.

Meanwhile, Bows kill fliers and wind kills fliers so having every archer use wind in their moveset isn't too much of a stretch.

[Arthur97]

6 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Their review sounds quite Hyurle Warriors biased as well. Lets ignore any problems that game had and some vaguely complain about not being into FE warriors as much for some mysterious reason. Sigh.

I could nitpick so much about that GameExplain review but instead I'll just say GamesBrained did a much better and more indepth review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVzQOSbzCyE

Speaking of reviews, my "favorite" so far was just posted by Metro Gaming: http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/18/fire-emblem-warriors-review-almost-mediocre-7009245/

"Fire Emblem has the potential to make a great partner, but this badly made and painfully simplistic crossover is as disappointingly dumb as all the other Dynasty Warriors games."

Ok, who let the Dynasty warrior hater write a review for this game? lol Badly made? The game runs better on the new 3DS then Hyrule Warrior does. Someone has done a comparison video to prove it.

Yeah, I determined they were biased before the review even hit, so I'm not even going to bother with theirs (not that I bother with most of their stuff these days).

[NoirCore]

2 hours ago, Arthur97 said:

Yeah, I determined they were biased before the review even hit, so I'm not even going to bother with theirs (not that I bother with most of their stuff these days).

You sure? I dunno...Derrick doesn't seem like the kind to be biased- or want to be biased, anyways. He's streamed the older FE games recently and is more familiar with FE than the other two GX guys. He also seems to have experience with other Dynasty Warriors games, but I admittedly don't know much about that. He mentioned in a discussion that despite playing the game, he wanted to play it some more to settle his thoughts; I don't think he'd want to just wing it.

Sorry if I'm missing something; Derrick just doesn't come off to me as a bad reviewer, despite what Jedi says about him being "pure rubbish" on apparently anything not Zelda-related.

[Lau]

I've been iffy with GameXplain in regards to Warriors. When it was revealed that the roster was going to be limited to the three games, they were always late on any Warriors news, most of the time they didn't even cover anything that was revealed. I only remember them covering the Cordelia and female Robin reveal and that's it. As soon as Lyn was revealed, they started uploading more stuff and that, sooo...yeah. And it's a shame because I genuinely do like GameXplain due to their analysis for Pokemon and stuff.

 

Anyways, Frederick being an axe user doesn't bother me. I like to think that they're paving the way for Camus in the DLC.

[Timeman]

12 hours ago, Jedi said:

I wouldn't listen to gameXplain considering they're pure rubbish when it comes to anything non-Zelda.

It's funny, because the GameXplain review of FEW was basically throwing sh*t (well, I'm exagerating here :p) to the whole game (except the gameplay, that is pretty similar to the rest of the games of the genre (as far as I know) and the History mode, but after comparing it with the Story mode, which was considered as trash some minutes ago in the same video, making most of the thinks better than the Story mode with the GX opinion (XD), and he even criticized this mode XD). He even said the music was not appealing XD.

And after al this garbage-throwing, he dares to say that he liked the game, after all this continuous attack that was the review XD.

I think he saw that is way superior to HW and HWL, but he used the roster excuse and magically extended it to the rest of the game to feel less bad XD.

[NoirCore]

3 hours ago, Timeman said:

It's funny, because the GameXplain review of FEW was basically throwing sh*t (well, I'm exagerating here :p) to the whole game (except the gameplay, that is pretty similar to the rest of the games of the genre (as far as I know) and the History mode, but after comparing it with the Story mode, which was considered as trash some minutes ago in the same video, making most of the thinks better than the Story mode with the GX opinion (XD), and he even criticized this mode XD). He even said the music was not appealing XD.

And after al this garbage-throwing, he dares to say that he liked the game, after all this continuous attack that was the review XD.

I think he saw that is way superior to HW and HWL, but he used the roster excuse and magically extended it to the rest of the game to feel less bad XD.

The bunch of XDs is sorta obnoxious.

But Derrick didn't just "call it trash". He gave fair points, like the lack of a focused villain and said the story was not expected to be amazing for based on prior Warriors games' stories (not that I'd know).

I didn't feel like Derrick really extended his grumblings about the roster to the whole game, let alone harp on the character selection from the games at any point; just their movesets, and even then he said he got over it. He gave plenty of positive points about the History Mode being better than Hyrule Warriors' Adventure Mode, claiming FE Warriors stands out with its strategy, praises the option for quality or performance, believing the visuals get the job done...

You spread "XD"s out, but aside from how he worded his opinion on the music, I think he was fair in his review. I don't have the right to believe his claim about the comparison between FE and Zelda (nor do I want to), but I don't think his review was full of "garbage-throwing".