DLC characters announced

[Florete]

9 hours ago, The DanMan said:

Considering the most recent interview outright said Lyn was included because IS said so, on top of the game data, I'd argue it's the other way around. Lyn got Navarre's moveset and Navarre got scrapped at the last minute (of note is that he's introduced right alongside the playable SD characters and appears in notable cutscenes along with them, while Owain's relevance fluctuates and Oboro/Niles are nowhere after the maps they're fought on).

According to this interview where they talk about the decision process and how they came up with Lyn's moveset, I think you're wrong.

[The DanMan]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

According to this interview where they talk about the decision process and how they came up with Lyn's moveset, I think you're wrong.

This is the interview I was referring to. Would they have outright said that? No, they wouldn't. Heck, Marth was the only revealed SD character then and nobody was supposed to know of Navarre's existence at that. The explanation given works pretty well as rationalization for why she got his moveset (over, say, Ryoma's), and the dodgy nature of the PR leaves room open for speculation/interpretation. I just find it pretty hard to believe that literally the last character added to the game got a new moveset done from scratch (when the previous two added characters were clones of characters already in the game).

[Florete]

3 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

This is the interview I was referring to. Would they have outright said that? No, they wouldn't. Heck, Marth was the only revealed SD character then and nobody was supposed to know of Navarre's existence at that. The explanation given works pretty well as rationalization for why she got his moveset (over, say, Ryoma's), and the dodgy nature of the PR leaves room open for speculation/interpretation. I just find it pretty hard to believe that literally the last character added to the game got a new moveset done from scratch (when the previous two added characters were clones of characters already in the game).

You are actually just choosing not to believe words straight from the developers mouth at this point.

Hayashi: Yes. While we were in a meeting deciding characters with Nintendo and Intelligent Systems, there were talks of “Please put in Lyn”.

"In a meeting deciding characters" suggests it was about the roster in general, not just about Lyn, meaning the final roster likely hadn't been finalized, meaning Lyn was decided relatively early on.

Hayashi: Nintendo Direct being shown simultaneously worldwide is the big factor. Even so, the first Fire Emblem to be released overseas was GBA’s Blazing Blade, in which Lyn was one of the protagonists. So Lyn is to foreigners as Marth is to the Japanese

This is something I was already speculating: Lyn was chosen because she's basically the series' Marth for westerners.

Usuda: Because there’s that illustration from Awakening, it might be very possible to give her the dual-wield setup.

Her Awakening art, which has her with two swords, is brought up as a possible point of inspiration. They also mention that they bring up the idea of her dual-wielding to IS.

On the other hand, forget for a moment that Lyn exists at all. Why Navarre? Why not Ogma? Ogma makes more sense in context and I'm pretty sure he's also more popular. Well, there was no one in the given roster Ogma could realistically copy.

But Navarre could. Navarre could copy Lyn.

And when did they say Lyn was the last character added?

[The DanMan]

5 minutes ago, Florete said:

You are actually just choosing not to believe words straight from the developers mouth at this point.

Hayashi: Yes. While we were in a meeting deciding characters with Nintendo and Intelligent Systems, there were talks of “Please put in Lyn”.

"In a meeting deciding characters" suggests it was about the roster in general, not just about Lyn, meaning the final roster likely hadn't been finalized, meaning Lyn was decided relatively early on.

Hayashi: Nintendo Direct being shown simultaneously worldwide is the big factor. Even so, the first Fire Emblem to be released overseas was GBA’s Blazing Blade, in which Lyn was one of the protagonists. So Lyn is to foreigners as Marth is to the Japanese

This is something I was already speculating: Lyn was chosen because she's basically the series' Marth for westerners.

Usuda: Because there’s that illustration from Awakening, it might be very possible to give her the dual-wield setup.

Her Awakening art, which has her with two swords, is brought up as a possible point of inspiration. They also mention that they bring up the idea of her dual-wielding to IS.

On the other hand, forget for a moment that Lyn exists at all. Why Navarre? Why not Ogma? Ogma makes more sense in context and I'm pretty sure he's also more popular. Well, there was no one in the given roster Ogma could realistically copy.

But Navarre could. Navarre could copy Lyn.

And when did they say Lyn was the last character added?

Lyn being decided early on is something I (and a lot of others elsewhere) did miss entirely.

As for Lyn being the last character added, that's from people poking around in the game files: Celica and Lyn were the last two characters listed in the data, which many took as confirmation of them being last-minute additions (Cordelia and Lucina were also near the bottom, and with our knowledge about Lucina that seemed to further those theories-- I believe Chrom was listed first as well, which lined up with their statement of him being the first character made for the game).

But this definitely throws things out the window.

Edited October 22, 2017 by The DanMan

[Florete]

1 hour ago, The DanMan said:

Lyn being decided early on is something I (and a lot of others elsewhere) did miss entirely.

As for Lyn being the last character added, that's from people poking around in the game files: Celica and Lyn were the last two characters listed in the data, which many took as confirmation of them being last-minute additions (Cordelia and Lucina were also near the bottom, and with our knowledge about Lucina that seemed to further those theories-- I believe Chrom was listed first as well, which lined up with their statement of him being the first character made for the game).

But this definitely throws things out the window.

I'm interested in seeing this list. Do you know where I can find it?

[nocturnal YL]

2 hours ago, The DanMan said:

Lyn being decided early on is something I (and a lot of others elsewhere) did miss entirely.

As for Lyn being the last character added, that's from people poking around in the game files: Celica and Lyn were the last two characters listed in the data, which many took as confirmation of them being last-minute additions (Cordelia and Lucina were also near the bottom, and with our knowledge about Lucina that seemed to further those theories-- I believe Chrom was listed first as well, which lined up with their statement of him being the first character made for the game).

But this definitely throws things out the window.

You can set up a bunch of files (or a list, an array, or some other similar data structure) by leaving gaps to be filled later. They could have put Lyn near the end because they anticipated all the other additions would fill up the gap.

Or they could have started working on the characters after having decided who to include. They could also refactor the whole program after they decided on additions and removals later on, even though it's a rather risky move (you could miss some references, and bam, NullPointerException and IndexOutOfBoundException).

Thing is, while data placement can serve as an indicator, it's not a development log and should not be treated as completely reliable evidence.

[The DanMan]

5 hours ago, Florete said:

I'm interested in seeing this list. Do you know where I can find it?

It was back in the thread where the localized supports were being datamined; the list itself wasn't posted, but someone mentioned it and a few things about the ordering.

[TheSS]

Just did some math. Note all of this is assuming Owain, Navarre, and Niles are clones, and no other DLC character is.

Pre-DLC

• 15 movesets
• 7 swords
• 3 axes
• 1 lance
• 2 magic
• 1 bow
• 1 stone
• 8 non-swords
• 4 non-swords in weapon triangle

Post-DLC

• 21 movesets
• 8 swords
• 4 axes
• 3 lances
• 4 magic
• 1 bow
• 1 stone
• 13 non-swords
• 7 non-swords in weapon triangle

Thought it was interesting.

Edited October 22, 2017 by TheSS

[HK Motendra]

2 hours ago, TheSS said:

Just did some math. Note all of this is assuming Owain, Navarre, and Niles are clones, and no other DLC character is.

Pre-DLC

• 15 movesets
• 8 swords
• 3 axes
• 1 lance
• 2 magic
• 1 bow
• 7 non-swords
• 4 non-swords in weapon triangle

Post-DLC

• 21 movesets
• 9 swords
• 4 axes
• 3 lances
• 4 magic
• 1 bow
• 12 non-swords
• 7 non-swords in weapon triangle

Thought it was interesting.

You've one extra sword in there than necessary. There are only 7 pre DLC sword move sets.

[TheSS]

Just now, Motendra said:

You've one extra sword in there than necessary. There are only 7 pre DLC sword move sets.

That's correct. I'll edit it.

[Quocthaiu]

For those of you who are new to the Musou games. I have play them all for the last 10 years. I could confidently inform you guys that Koei always declone when it come to expansion. So I think they will declone the DLC and maybe the cloned vanilla character

[TheSS]

On 10/23/2017 at 12:58 AM, Quocthaiu said:

For those of you who are new to the Musou games. I have play them all for the last 10 years. I could confidently inform you guys that Koei always declone when it come to expansion. So I think they will declone the DLC and maybe the cloned vanilla character

I dunno. The fire emblem games are so expansive with their casts they may instead focus on maximizing the number of characters rather than putting in effort to make Cordelia distinct from Caeda.

[Anomalocaris]

3 minutes ago, TheSS said:

I dunno. The fire emblem games are so expansive with their casts they may instead focus on maximizing the number of characters rather than putting in effort to make Cordelia distinct from Caeda.

It would be nice if they at least decloned characters who belong to different classes. The Pegasus Knights, Aytollis Lords, and Ylissean Lords can all play the same, but Troubadors should play differently from Dark Knights, and Archers, Shrine Maidens, and Outlaws should play differently from each other.

[TheSS]

8 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

It would be nice if they at least decloned characters who belong to different classes. The Pegasus Knights, Aytollis Lords, and Ylissean Lords can all play the same, but Troubadors should play differently from Dark Knights, and Archers, Shrine Maidens, and Outlaws should play differently from each other.

Honestly? A mage on a horse is a mage on a horse. Regardless what the class was called, that's how I used Leo in game and it's how I used Elise. Is it ideal? No, but it's fair. 

[Anomalocaris]

6 minutes ago, TheSS said:

Honestly? A mage on a horse is a mage on a horse. Regardless what the class was called, that's how I used Leo in game and it's how I used Elise. Is it ideal? No, but it's fair. 

A mage on a horse is a mage on a horse, yes. And an infantry with a sword is an infantry with a sword, yet we have six completely different movesets for that.

Mages especially have little excuse to play the same. There's only so many different swordplay styles but magic has nigh-infinite possibility with all the different spells that exist in Fire Emblem. Just giving Strategists a different set of five spells for their combo finishers and making their basic attack string a different element would go a long way toward that. Mixing some staff usage in could work too, the same way Lissa uses her staff for some attacks in the War Cleric moveset.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Anomalocaris

[TheSS]

Just now, Anomalocaris said:

A mage on a horse is a mage on a horse, yes. And an infantry with a sword is an infantry with a sword, yet we have six completely different movesets for that.

Mages especially have little excuse to play the same. There's only so many different swordplay styles but magic has nigh-infinite possibility with all the different spells that exist in Fire Emblem.

Perhaps a better example would be if I had said "You're kidding yourself if you think Niles is a thief and not an archer".

You're entirely right about mages, we need lots of them. But I think I can find peace with Elise and Leo having the same movesets. There's no NEED for them to play different. I'd rather they make new movesets for new mage characters, that way we can have more characters in the game.

[Anomalocaris]

Just now, TheSS said:

Perhaps a better example would be if I had said "You're kidding yourself if you think Niles is a thief and not an archer".

You're entirely right about mages, we need lots of them. But I think I can find peace with Elise and Leo having the same movesets. There's no NEED for them to play different. I'd rather they make new movesets for new mage characters, that way we can have more characters in the game.

I'd be fine with Niles and Anna playing the same, but they should probably play differently from Takumi's basic Archer set. Outlaw is supposed to favor quick, opportunist strikes and acrobatics.

And I should clarify, I'm not super-nettled by Elise and Leo being clones, and it's not as huge a priority as getting in new movesets for new characters, but it would be nice to rectify it. Plus setting up an organized class-based moveset system could potentially lead to reclassing being added as a mechanic in a future game...

[TheSS]

5 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

I'd be fine with Niles and Anna playing the same, but they should probably play differently from Takumi's basic Archer set. Outlaw is supposed to favor quick, opportunist strikes and acrobatics.

And I should clarify, I'm not super-nettled by Elise and Leo being clones, and it's not as huge a priority as getting in new movesets for new characters, but it would be nice to rectify it. Plus setting up an organized class-based moveset system could potentially lead to reclassing being added as a mechanic in a future game...

You know, now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind Niles playing different, if only so that we could get more variety among archers...

And honestly, I think an organized class based system wouldn't hurt, because it makes sure that no kind of playstyle is left out to dry like in this game. I think they won't class change, though. That's work they could spend on adding... literally anything else. 

Oh god, I hope not.

[Anomalocaris]

9 minutes ago, TheSS said:

You know, now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind Niles playing different, if only so that we could get more variety among archers...

And honestly, I think an organized class based system wouldn't hurt, because it makes sure that no kind of playstyle is left out to dry like in this game. I think they won't class change, though. That's work they could spend on adding... literally anything else. 

Oh god, I hope not.

Class changing actually wouldn't be too difficult to implement once you have generic, class-based movesets (which the current game is already pretty close to having). If Lucina had Archer as her secondary class, for example, you'd just rig her model to Takumi's moveset, with some different idle animations, and a different Warrior special and Awakening finisher.

It's just one possibility opened up by an organized class-based system, though, and admittedly doesn't add much to the game beyond novelty. There's other benefits that are more substantial, like making the addition of new characters (both original and clone) easier.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Anomalocaris