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Power Creep and Changing Gacha Philosphy in Heroes


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22 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Oppressive as in what though? Too few counters?

When I said Ayra was oppressive, I mostly meant that she can invalidate every other unit in her class, though combat wise she is also dumb. Some TA Blues lose to her.

Its honestly a bit hard to say what is opressive and what isn't in this game since lets be real here FEH is a PvE game

If i would judge her based on how opressive she is i would judge her based on how hard is it for me to handle her if i met her on Arena. The closest comparison i would make with Ayra is Cellica who had 37/38 offense + 10 or so with her Magical nature to Ayra 35/40(neutralized). Looking at it this way, Cellica had 12 more attack and 2 less Speed than Ayra and she's ranged. She's on the gold standard of opressive level combat wise because no shit thats what Cellica is, but unlike Cellica she is melee so i don't feel i'd fear her all that much. Its kind of like that

Honestly i feel weirded out about this kind of talk because when i think about PvE game on the scale of FEH power creep isn't quite the word i would use so word like opressive isn't quite the right one for it. I thought about Ayra as an enemy in chapter 10 where standard sword lord is an enemy of chapter 5. I thought about how i need to train my Staff user to handle late game FE5, where i need to keep up with her otherwise its my fault(it helps that the game does gives you ways to do it reasonably).

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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20 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Oppressive as in what though? Too few counters?

When I said Ayra was oppressive, I mostly meant that she can invalidate every other unit in her class, though combat wise she is also dumb. Some TA Blues lose to her.

2 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Its honestly a bit hard to say what is opressive and what isn't in this game since lets be real here FEH is a PvE game

I see the word "oppressive" as meaning a character that requires specific consideration when team-building. Effectively, this means a case where accounting for the class of units (e.g. "blue tome users") is typically not enough to handle said character.

Simply being better than every other member of your class isn't enough to be oppressive if the character doesn't have the presence to require counter-building.

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7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I see the word "oppressive" as meaning a character that requires specific consideration when team-building. Effectively, this means a case where accounting for the class of units (e.g. "blue tome users") is typically not enough to handle said character.

Simply being better than every other member of your class isn't enough to be oppressive if the character doesn't have the presence to require counter-building.

Pretty much every Red not named Sigurd automatically dies to Reinhardt, so that's hard to determine for the Red category. QP DC Ayra does have pretty dumb wins over some Blues, though. Can't remember off the top of my head.

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6 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Pretty much every Red not named Sigurd automatically dies to Reinhardt, so that's hard to determine for the Red category. QP DC Ayra does have pretty dumb wins over some Blues, though. Can't remember off the top of my head.

Lemme guess, Azura.

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1 minute ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Pretty much every Red not named Sigurd automatically dies to Reinhardt, so that's hard to determine for the Red category. QP DC Ayra does have pretty dumb wins over some Blues, though. Can't remember off the top of my head.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. "I have Reinhardt and therefore every red unit not named Sigurd isn't an issue" is irrelevant. "This enemy exists and Reinhardt is the only character that can deal with it" would be relevant.

Start with the unit as an enemy and determine what can be used to counter-pick that unit (and under what situations). The length of that list or the situational restrictions would decide if the unit is truly oppressive.

 

2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Btw, someone killed a +10 Azura with +1 Ayra lol.

Triangle Adept won't save you if your Def/Res stat is only in the low 20's and the opponent has an offensive special skill activation ready (that isn't Moonbow or Glimmer).

Being able to kill Triangle Adept opponents when at disadvantage isn't particularly impressive unless the Triangle Adept unit is actually decently bulky.

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5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. "I have Reinhardt and therefore every red unit not named Sigurd isn't an issue" is irrelevant. "This enemy exists and Reinhardt is the only character that can deal with it" would be relevant.

Start with the unit as an enemy and determine what can be used to counter-pick that unit (and under what situations). The length of that list or the situational restrictions would decide if the unit is truly oppressive.

 

Triangle Adept won't save you if your Def/Res stat is only in the low 20's and the opponent has an offensive special skill activation ready (that isn't Moonbow or Glimmer).

Being able to kill Triangle Adept opponents when at disadvantage isn't particularly impressive unless the Triangle Adept unit is actually decently bulky.

That makes sense. I'll check later I guess.

Well, in the context of the actual battle, the fact that this happened within one round does say something imo. Sure, Ayra did it with Special proc damage, but there aren't that many Reds who can, with no prior engagements or even Quickened Pulse, instantly proc a >17 damage Special onto Azura and kill her in one round.

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43 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I see the word "oppressive" as meaning a character that requires specific consideration when team-building. Effectively, this means a case where accounting for the class of units (e.g. "blue tome users") is typically not enough to handle said character.

Simply being better than every other member of your class isn't enough to be oppressive if the character doesn't have the presence to require counter-building.

While i kinda agree, Ayra is tough really oppressiv. A Blue Tome user needs 50 Atk to one shot her in one attack (no double, assumign Ayra is -RES) her if they cant double her. Linde can achieve that easy with a TomeBlade or her Legendary weapon and +1 more attack buff (this is ignoring what A Slot skills Ayra or Linde use). Delthea Can one shot her without any buffs assuming Ayra is -RES and doesnt run something like Fury. Everybody outside of Reinhardt/Olwen/Linda/Delthea will have a hard time one shoting her unless they run some form of Tomeblade, since they cant basicly double her and have to even fear for being counter insta killed if Ayra is equiped with Distant Counter.
A Red mage will need 59 attack to one shot her, none of them are able to double her, so the only way for a Red mage to kill Ayra and not be killed by Distant Counter Regnal Astra is by using a Blade Tome and get fully buffed almost. Green Tome mages wont even be able to kill her, not even a fully buffed +Atk Nino (+SPD nino wont be able to double her) with +4 buffs to every stat.

If only 5% of the unit roster can attack you without getting killed thats pretty oppressiv in my eyes.

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18 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

That makes sense. I'll check later I guess.

Well, in the context of the actual battle, the fact that this happened within one round does say something imo. Sure, Ayra did it with Special proc damage, but there aren't that many Reds who can, with no prior engagements or even Quickened Pulse, instantly proc a >17 damage Special onto Azura and kill her in one round.

Anyone with a Wo Dao and Moonbow that is fast enough to double attack can pull off a 19-damage special skill activation against a +10 neutral Azura. A Killing Edge and Wrath can do the same with a 3-charge special skill.

The only real struggle is getting the double attack in the first place and not dying to the counterattack.

 

6 minutes ago, Hilda said:

While i kinda agree, Ayra is tough really oppressiv. [snip]

Literally every relevant blue tome user in the game (basically everyone other than Odin, not counting Shigure since he's primarily a support unit) uses either Blarblade or Triangle Adept Blarraven in their standard build (or a unique weapon that still gets the job done), both of which are capable of one-hit killing Ira (Robin needs a buff to Atk if he is neutral Atk).

Lance users are the ones that have trouble because they have to break through 72 physical bulk and 43 base Spd, which basically means you're going to be relying on Firesweep Lance with Swordbreaker or Brave Lance to break through that, assuming Ira isn't running Deflect Melee. Sapphire Lance also works for naturally bulky units running Quick Riposte or Swordbreaker (like Lukas), and Effie has enough firepower to one-hit kill with basic buffs (or Death Blow on player phase).

Nowi doesn't care because she takes zero damage from the initial attack and kills on the counterattack (or kills on initiating combat).

What I'm basically seeing is that Ira will prompt lance users to run Swordbreaker instead of Lancebreaker, giving up coverage to specifically keep Ira in check.

 

25 minutes ago, Hilda said:

If only 5% of the unit roster can attack you without getting killed thats pretty oppressiv in my eyes.

Honestly, I think the percentage of the roster that has weapon triangle advantage that can safely engage in combat is more important than the entire roster.

As best as I can tell, every combat-oriented blue unit that targets Res has a standard option that can handle Ira. It's really only lance users that are affected, and that's mostly a shift from the coverage that Lancebreaker provides to the more dedicated counter that Swordbreaker gives.

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2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. "I have Reinhardt and therefore every red unit not named Sigurd isn't an issue" is irrelevant. "This enemy exists and Reinhardt is the only character that can deal with it" would be relevant.

I disagree. Reinhardt is still the meta, so the fact that Ayra and Sigurd are both red is a huge disadvantage. "I have Reinhardt and therefore every red unit not named Sigurd isn't an issue" is very relevant because that "I" is a significant fraction of players, not a just a few.

In my opinion, Sigurd also is not a very big issue for Reinhardt either if you have Dancer/Singer support. Sigurd's gimmick is that he can withstand one round of combat against mages so you can take advantage of leaving him in enemy range and not worry about his survival; on a defense team, as long as you check the enemies for Wings of Mercy, his gimmick does not really do much besides being a minor annoyance since the AI does not know how to use him properly. Sigurd is a very good temporary magic wall, but he is a very flimsy one with his piss poor Resistance as he falls apart against any decent red or blue mage with Dancer/Singer support.

 

Edited by XRay
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12 minutes ago, XRay said:

I disagree. Reinhardt is still the meta, so the fact that Ayra and Sigurd are both red is a huge disadvantage. "I have Reinhardt and therefore every red unit not named Sigurd isn't an issue" is very relevant because that "I" is a significant fraction of players, not a just a few.

In my opinion, Sigurd also is not a very big issue for Reinhardt either if you have Dancer/Singer support. Sigurd's gimmick is that he can withstand one round of combat against mages so you can take advantage of leaving him in enemy range and not worry about his survival; on a defense team, as long as you check the enemies for Wings of Mercy, his gimmick does not really do much besides being a minor annoyance since the AI does not know how to use him properly. Sigurd is a very good temporary magic wall, but he is a very flimsy one with his piss poor Resistance as he falls apart against any decent red or blue mage with Dancer/Singer support.

 

That depends entirely on the build of Sigurd tough. an Enemy phase sigurd on Defense Teams will run Distant Counter (at least mine does) makeing it for mages not so easy to attack and makeing it for Sigurd able to ORKO Reinhardt and desperation users on the counterattack. But Sigurd isnt really "OP" i agree but he fills a very nice niche.

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7 minutes ago, Hilda said:

That depends entirely on the build of Sigurd tough. an Enemy phase sigurd on Defense Teams will run Distant Counter (at least mine does) makeing it for mages not so easy to attack and makeing it for Sigurd able to ORKO Reinhardt and desperation users on the counterattack. But Sigurd isnt really "OP" i agree but he fills a very nice niche.

His Distant Counter nullifies Crusader's Ward against regular mages though. The price of countering Reinhardt means that he is giving up his default niche.

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4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Jugdral has had the unlucky position of being the only "pre-modern" games that have not yet had a remake to a modern system along with a Western localization. Prior to this banner, it was also the least represented continent in Heroes, having had a total of 6 total characters across two games.

Until proven otherwise, my assumption is still that Sigurd and Ira, who were the top-placing male and female characters from Jugdral in CYL, are receiving the same treatment as the CYL winners as an "apology" of sorts for Jugdral's current position.

We simply don't have enough data points at this point to know if the CYL winner bonus is intended to be a recurring thing.

Thing is they are receiving the same treatment as Lyn and Ike while Lucina and Roy, the other winners, didn't receive +5 BST. Sigurd even got another exclusive skill to his kit, another privilege reserved for the first spot. It seems fishy that they would take this "apology" so far that they would overshadow 2 of the most popular characters. Like this favoritism goes:
Ike/Lyn/Sigurd > Ayra > Roy/Lucina
This doesn't seem right at all.

If they really wanted to avoid this situation and "sell" Genealogy, they should have pushed either popular or plot-relevant characters to the spotlight and bundled the characters differently. The 3-man banner has Tailtu before Lewyn, Quan or even Finn. The former two even have Legendary weapons in Forseti and Gae Bolg.
Before anyone else says, new banners favor females before males or do at least 50:50; they could have bundled Ayra there instead. Sure, it would have worse color balance but tell that to the Crimean banner with Nephenee and Oscar which started this awful trend of 3-man banners.
This would have been a better insurance against the current backlash. I don't think people would be that upset if Tailtu was the character stuck with Eldigan & Lachesis (better color distribution aside).

Edited by Talandar
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5 minutes ago, XRay said:

His Distant Counter nullifies Crusader's Ward against regular mages though. The price of countering Reinhardt means that he is giving up his default niche.

mm not really with Distant Def Seal and a +RES (mine is +RES - HP) he canbecome quite bulky running 26 RES, with the first hit still being reduced by 50% and my team runs Spur Def/RES or Drive Res giving him 3-9 additonal RES

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10 minutes ago, Hilda said:

mm not really with Distant Def Seal and a +RES (mine is +RES - HP) he canbecome quite bulky running 26 RES, with the first hit still being reduced by 50% and my team runs Spur Def/RES or Drive Res giving him 3-9 additonal RES

Sigurd needs more than one stack Spur/Drive Res buff to handle regular mages, and on a defense team, I am not sure the opposing player will allow that to happen as they manipulate the defense team apart. Tharja [Rauðrblade, Life and Death, 0/4/0/2] still kills Sigurd [+Res, -HP, Divine Tyrfing, Distant Counter, Crusader's Ward, Distant Def 3 Sacred Seal, 0/0/0/4]. Celica with Life and Death kills him too. Even if Sigurd manages to get more than one stack of Spur/Drive Res, he is not surviving red mages with Dancer/Singer support.

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46 minutes ago, Talandar said:

Like this favoritism goes:
Ike/Lyn/Sigurd > Ayra > Roy/Lucina
This doesn't seem right at all.

Eh, with Ayra's additional BST boost over the other three and also having Regnal Astra, she wouldn't be below Ike, Lyn and Sigurd in the hierarchy imo.

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20 minutes ago, XRay said:

I disagree. Reinhardt is still the meta, so the fact that Ayra and Sigurd are both red is a huge disadvantage. "I have Reinhardt and therefore every red unit not named Sigurd isn't an issue" is very relevant because that "I" is a significant fraction of players, not a just a few.

For me, being oppressive means that it significantly restricts team-building.

What you and other players are currently using on your Arena offense teams don't matter at all in the context of team-building.

 

6 minutes ago, Talandar said:

Thing is they are receiving the same treatment as Lyn and Ike while Lucina and Roy, the other winners, didn't receive +5 BST. Sigurd even got another exclusive skill to his kit, another privilege reserved for the first spot. It seems fishy that they would take this "apology" so far that they would overshadow 2 of the most popular characters. Like this favoritism goes:
Ike/Lyn/Sigurd > Ayra > Roy/Lucina
This doesn't seem right at all.

Lucina and Roy were second place in their respective categories. Last I checked, second place is a "runner-up" and not a winner.

Sigurd was first place in his category.

 

17 minutes ago, Talandar said:

this awful trend of 3-man banners.

I personally like the fact that there are fewer characters on each banner because that statistically means fewer orbs spent for each character.

 

1 minute ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Eh, with Ayra's additional BST boost over the other three and also having Regnal Astra, she wouldn't be below Ike, Lyn and Sigurd in the hierarchy imo.

Ira gives up both a default C skill and a unique passive skill for a unique special skill.

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10 hours ago, Prince Endriu said:

For me, the whole gacha thing is a little bit ridiculous. The gap between f2p and p2w whaling is just enormous. I paid for the FE Fates limited edition (three games in one basically), about 90 EUR, brandnew and sealed. For that money I wouldnt even get 140 orbs. And even then 140 doesnt mean anything, you might as well get only useless 3* for it. So its a gamble. In order to be on the competitive whaling side of the game you would need to spend much, much more in order to get a new +10 character each new focus banner - thats some crazy spending already (no offense). I ask myself, what happens if they shut this game down? Ok, I only nine 23 orbs packs - so its not a great deal. I might buy some more in the long run. But there is people who have spent insane amounts on it already - if this game gets shut down for whatever reason... I dont want to think about it.

Real talk.  I've spent $50 total on this game, and I only got two units I actually wanted (Kagero and Minerva).  Kagero is minus Spd, and Minerva is minus Atk, which are the worst possible banes for these units.  The people that make the YouTube videos where they use 500 orbs to summon on a banner?  They could have bought a Switch with Breath of the Wild, which is a far better game than this.  Without noticing it, you can spend a lot of money on this game, and essentially get nothing.

5 hours ago, Stroud said:

 

With my very defensive arena team I also don't think that Sigurd and Ayra are truly a problem. I also know that I can handle Arden.
But sometimes B.Lyn can still be a problem. I never feared such units as BIke and Hector, especially not with my A-Tiki, but B.Lyn can still be dangerous to my defensive unites like Gwendolyn if I don't use the deflect missile seal of if I don't watch out in my positioning.

Nice!  Another member confirmed for #TeamAdultTiki.  She's been a mainstay on my team since PA! Azura and seal upgrades came out.  With the proper setup she can ORKO B! Lyn, B!Ike, and Hector on enemy phase.

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40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Lucina and Roy were second place in their respective categories. Last I checked, second place is a "runner-up" and not a winner.

Sigurd was first place in his category.

If you’re saying that Sigurd earned his BST boost by being the highest ranked FE4 character, then that reasoning doesn’t really work since Lucina and Roy were both the highest ranked characters of their respective games yet their BH versions didn’t get the same treatment as him, BH!Lyn or BH!Ike.

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48 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Lucina and Roy were second place in their respective categories. Last I checked, second place is a "runner-up" and not a winner.

Sigurd was first place in his category.

What category was Sigurd first place in? Most popular FE4 character? Roy and Lucina are also the most popular characters in their respective game casts.

Or maybe you meant something else, in which case I'm curious. Either way, Ayra wasn't first place anything, that's for sure.

 

EDIT: I'm a few seconds late.

Edited by Nitramyte
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50 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Ira gives up both a default C skill and a unique passive skill for a unique special skill.

I'm not saying she's above them or something, I just don't think she's below them. She has a unique Special and +1 BST while the others have a unique B and three passives. It sorta evens out.

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17 minutes ago, Charmeleonbrah said:

Nice!  Another member confirmed for #TeamAdultTiki.  She's been a mainstay on my team since PA! Azura and seal upgrades came out.  With the proper setup she can ORKO B! Lyn, B!Ike, and Hector on enemy phase.

#TeamAdultTiki knows what is good. It feels truly satisfying to counter B!Lyn with A-Tiki. She should be more appreciated.
And distant Counter Seal was truly a blessing for A-Tiki. Adult Tiki followers are always good to see.
 

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9 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

If you’re saying that Sigurd earned his BST boost by being the highest ranked FE4 character, then that reasoning doesn’t really work since Lucina and Roy were both the highest ranked characters of their respective games yet their BH versions didn’t get the same treatment as him, BH!Lyn or BH!Ike.

8 minutes ago, Nitramyte said:

What category was Sigurd first place in? Most popular FE4 character? Roy and Lucina are also the most popular characters in their respective game casts.

Or maybe you meant something else, in which case I'm curious. Either way, Ayra wasn't first place anything, that's for sure.

Did you not read my previous post on the topic or are you just trying to be smart alecks?

Or both actually. I'm not in the mood to repeat myself. Go read it yourself. It's on the previous page.

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