Power Creep and Changing Gacha Philosphy in Heroes

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Sigurd needs more than one stack Spur/Drive Res buff to handle regular mages, and on a defense team, I am not sure the opposing player will allow that to happen as they manipulate the defense team apart. Tharja [Rauðrblade, Life and Death, 0/4/0/2] still kills Sigurd [+Res, -HP, Divine Tyrfing, Distant Counter, Crusader's Ward, Distant Def 3 Sacred Seal, 0/0/0/4]. Celica with Life and Death kills him too. Even if Sigurd manages to get more than one stack of Spur/Drive Res, he is not surviving red mages with Dancer/Singer support.

him getting Spurs/Drive RES is very likely considering all my units run Rally DEF/RES. meaning they will clump together most likely, makeing it harder to bait. Besides the point is also to make the other mages fall into Desperation range after they battle Sigurd, so my Distant Counter B!Ike can deal with them more easy. of course if i actively play the team sigurd will allways benefit from at least 2x Spur/drive Def/Res and Rally RES/DEF giving him at best +12 Res and at bare minimum with worst positions (which doesnt happen much) +6 RES

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

2 minutes ago, Hilda said:

him getting Spurs/Drive RES is very likely considering all my units run Rally DEF/RES. meaning they will clump together most likely, makeing it harder to bait. Besides the point is also to make the other mages fall into Desperation range after they battle Sigurd, so my Distant Counter B!Ike can deal with them more easy. of course if i actively play the team sigurd will allways benefit from at least 2x Spur/drive Def/Res and Rally RES/DEF giving him at best +12 Res and at bare minimum with worst positions (which doesnt happen much) +6 RES

Likely doesn't mean it's a good thing. Giving someone Spurs/Drives still means your team has to be built around such, and Rallies also remove your option to run Reposition or any movement skill, which slightly reduces your positioning flexibility. Basically, your list of options shrink.

Edited October 20, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Charmeleonbrah]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Did you not read my previous post on the topic or are you just trying to be smart alecks?

Or both actually. I'm not in the mood to repeat myself. Go read it yourself. It's on the previous page.

My strategy is to not read anyone's posts and then pretty much make up something and post a reply.  Somehow, I'm always right anyways.

But yeah, I understood what you meant about the poll results.  Your theory about IS throwing a bone to FE4 seems legit.  Also, maybe they're making an effort to make reds a better color, since they are relatively underrepresented in top tier, with adding Arvis, Sigurd, and Ayra.  I don't know.  Another theory is that the designers all have a weird fixation/attraction/hard-on for Sigurd and Ayra so they decided to make them OP.

[Nitramyte]

18 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Did you not read my previous post on the topic or are you just trying to be smart alecks?

Or both actually. I'm not in the mood to repeat myself. Go read it yourself. It's on the previous page.

My post was not meant to be an attack in any way.

I just think "first place in their own game and second most popular male/female character overall worldwide" is at least as strong a statement as "first place in a game that hasn't released outside the west". Saying Sigurd was first in his category and Lucina/Roy weren't requires some really specific definition of "first in his category" to work.

You could be right, of course. Maybe that's why Sigurd got that treatment. Maybe IS considers Sigurd first in the "japan-only universe" category (although we never got Roy's game, but he has smash and his prequel out in the west). However, I'm not willing to give IS the benefit of the doubt here. IS didn't give Sigurd and Ayra special treatments just because they're special cases. They just want to make new units more appealing, and increased stats/unique skills is clearly their way to do it going forward. I didn't particularly mind it with Sigurd, but Ayra was quite mishandled with the whole bait and switch banner thing.

[Prince Endriu]

21 minutes ago, Charmeleonbrah said:

Real talk.  I've spent $50 total on this game, and I only got two units I actually wanted (Kagero and Minerva).  Kagero is minus Spd, and Minerva is minus Atk, which are the worst possible banes for these units.  The people that make the YouTube videos where they use 500 orbs to summon on a banner?  They could have bought a Switch with Breath of the Wild, which is a far better game than this.  Without noticing it, you can spend a lot of money on this game, and essentially get nothing.

Nice!  Another member confirmed for #TeamAdultTiki.  She's been a mainstay on my team since PA! Azura and seal upgrades came out.  With the proper setup she can ORKO B! Lyn, B!Ike, and Hector on enemy phase.

I bought nine 23 orbs packs because I wanter PA Azura. I got her, I also got a second Raven (brave axe for frederick) +atk Camilla (cant say that I am a fan) and +atk Amelia (not too much into Armor emblem but still happy about her). Cant really say I got my moneys worth but things could be much worse - so I dont complain about this one.

I actually wouldnt mind dropping some money from time to time - will see...

The bothering thing is that nine orbs packs are serious dough - compared to what I have actually gotten. And what I have gotten doesnt give me an edge whatsoever - just some minor improvements. Either you spend tons of money REGULARLY and get the +10s and 5* skill fodder or you wont be able to compete. Not that it actually matters - the difference in rewards between staying in tier 20 and moving between 

19 and 20 are just roughly 2k feathers per month. So I couldnt care less. My point is the gap between f2p and p2w - and that one is huge.

I guess people who actually do spend tons of money regularly can easily afford it - I am not poor but I couldnt and wouldnt actually want to. Still, powercreep might make those investments obsolete with time and thats sort of annoying in its own right. And I believe there is lots of units which were once hailed as the greatest, like Takumi and have been overtaken by better units - I take blyn without close counter over any takumi.

Since I am not a whale it might not affect me. I will never get +10 units from pulls... BUT I like collecting feathers and would like to get some units to +10. And this is where the game has limitations - you can get only a certain amount of feathers per month and you need to pull those specific units at least 11 times. This might take a lot of time and effort and should I ever get that far it might turn out to be way too late as the meta might have gone elsewhere.

A common point of criticizm is the never changing 3* pool - no comments! 

5* demotion does only happen after a new focus banner and has become more rare than before. In the beginning we even had some good units demoted - Reinhardt comes to mind. It has become rather easy to guess who is gonna get demoted - only the weakest ones. Why cant any of the top tier units get demoted every once in a while?

Grand heroes are not THAT great most of the time - but why is it that people want reruns of Xander and Camus and it wont happen? Because of distant counter?

Of course, a common praise is the fact that most content can be completed with f2p units - I guess if that wasnt the case many people might stop playing the game out of frustration.

I would like to see some more user friendliness with better chances for f2p and small spenders. I dont care about what other gatcha do I care about FEH.

A good game should be balanced enough to give all players the same chances. P2w should have it easy because they pay for it - f2p should be able to reach similar goals through effort.  Guess thats wishful thinking.

 

 

 

[Time the Crestfallen]

Well I can't exactly say that I'm shocked that a gacha game is trying to milk money out of players at the expense of overall quality.

Although to be honest, the Skill Inheritance and IV system was evidence enough of that.

[Charmeleonbrah]

30 minutes ago, Prince Endriu said:

I bought nine 23 orbs packs because I wanter PA Azura. I got her, I also got a second Raven (brave axe for frederick) +atk Camilla (cant say that I am a fan) and +atk Amelia (not too much into Armor emblem but still happy about her). Cant really say I got my moneys worth but things could be much worse - so I dont complain about this one.

I actually wouldnt mind dropping some money from time to time - will see...

The bothering thing is that nine orbs packs are serious dough - compared to what I have actually gotten. And what I have gotten doesnt give me an edge whatsoever - just some minor improvements. Either you spend tons of money REGULARLY and get the +10s and 5* skill fodder or you wont be able to compete. Not that it actually matters - the difference in rewards between staying in tier 20 and moving between 

19 and 20 are just roughly 2k feathers per month. So I couldnt care less. My point is the gap between f2p and p2w - and that one is huge.

I guess people who actually do spend tons of money regularly can easily afford it - I am not poor but I couldnt and wouldnt actually want to. Still, powercreep might make those investments obsolete with time and thats sort of annoying in its own right. And I believe there is lots of units which were once hailed as the greatest, like Takumi and have been overtaken by better units - I take blyn without close counter over any takumi.

 

I'd love to meet these people who clutter the top ranks with their +10 Amelias.  I have a hard time believing that there's a bunch of high rollers out there who also happen to spend thousands of dollars on FEH in their spare time.  Guys that fly their private jets to Morocco and sit in a brothel while whaling to get a supermerged Ayra with +Speed IVs.  I feel like a lot of them are NEETs with rich parents.  Personally, I'd pay for more content.  It would be great to get more maps to play. 

[Shiki]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Lucina and Roy were second place in their respective categories. Last I checked, second place is a "runner-up" and not a winner.

Sigurd was first place in his category

That reasoning doesn't make sense. If we're going this way, Lucina and Roy are also the winner of their respective games so it's useless to compare them this way.
There is no arguing to this; they just want to make people pull for these characters by making them look "stronger than normal" (which they aren't but most people just look at the stats and skills). I would assume that most whales would jump blindly on this.

To take myself as an example: I for one am not interested in Genealogy at all and wouldn't spend Orbs on it except that I need Red fodder (ok, it's HInata) and having a chance on a really good 5* during this process makes it worth it. If Sigurd was weaker, say regular Tyrfing and minus Crusader, there would be no reason for me to pull.

 

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Eh, with Ayra's additional BST boost over the other three and also having Regnal Astra, she wouldn't be below Ike, Lyn and Sigurd in the hierarchy imo.

The hierarchy is more about what these units got. Ayra didn't get a free extra skill slot like Sigurd's Crusader skill.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

14 minutes ago, Talandar said:

The hierarchy is more about what these units got. Ayra didn't get a free extra skill slot like Sigurd's Crusader skill.

Like I said, Ayra literally got one extra point of BST added to her level 1 total for no reason, which is something IS has never done. I don't think she's any less of a favourite.

 

@Ice Dragon Finally had time to sit down and check the calcs again, and it looks like, on Enemy Phase, Ayra is able to survive certain non-Brave Lance units that Ryoma and Ike otherwise cannot, though since she doesn't run Deflect Melee, she loses to some of the Brave Lances or Firesweeps that Ryoma and Ike don't lose to or can even beat. Overall, their anti-Blue performance is (predictably) very similar, but Ayra performs a lot better against her own color. So basically, yeah, Ayra wouldn't exactly be oppressive by your definition, but extremely effective in player hands. Still, a lot of popular Lance units fail to finish her in one round, including Brave Lucina, DC Effie and Hone Cav'd Camus.

But I guess Sigurd would count as more oppressive? +Spd -Res Fury Moonbow Sigurd is pretty good offensively, especially if he receives a Hone Cavalry (which he probably will on a Defense team). He is also extremely difficult to kill on your Phase when he's buffed, to the point of physical Blues suiciding into him, and Renais or even Emblem buffed Blue mages are unable to take him down due to his weapon and decent Speed. He's so good at survival despite his offense, that Swordbreaker Reinhardt is no longer redundant. Would you call him oppressive?

[Shiki]

10 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Like I said, Ayra literally got one extra point of BST added to her level 1 total for no reason, which is something IS has never done. I don't think she's any less of a favourite.

... that's why she is below those 3.
Sigurd/Lyn/Ike have a BST bonus and another skill.
Arya only has a BST bonus (may it be also in her Lvl 1 stats)
Roy/Lucina have none of these extras.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

4 minutes ago, Talandar said:

... that's why she is below those 3.
Sigurd/Lyn/Ike have a BST bonus and another skill.
Arya only has a BST bonus (may it be also in her Lvl 1 stats)
Roy/Lucina have none of these extras.

The nature of the BST boost that Ayra received is different from what Ike, Sigurd and Lyn received, and is an unprecedented addition, AND breaks the defined rules of how stats work in this game, which is why her BST is higher than Ike's. Those other three may have an extra C skill on them, but that's something that Ayra can inherit through SI, while the extra stat point isn't a difference that can be fixed. I'm saying that that extra treatment to her stats is AT LEAST worth as much an extra Passive.

[Shiki]

It's not a big deal at lvl. 40 though. Units having 1 BST difference is nothing new.
Take Marth and Athena for example. Marth has 157-158 while Athena only has 156-157. I'm aware this is different since this comes from base stats instead of growth variations. But saying that this is going to introduce some kind of new trend is way too early.

Again, you're mixing up the fact that all 3 got unique B passives in addition to having one in A and C. Ayra only has passives that are inheritable. Yes, her Astra is exclusive but it's skill progression is nothing new since we had stuff like Aether and Galeforce.
Sigurd, Lyn and Ike definetly got more love than Ayra did.

[Refa]

On 10/19/2017 at 2:00 PM, Rezzy said:

This new questionable marketing strategy also coincides with the blatant power creep going on in the past couple months.  We had 7 months or so where IS was pretty good about keeping things in check.  No game breaking skills and each movement type had a set BST to work with.  After CYL, that went all out the window.  Legendary weapons went above their  second rung skill on top of 16 Might to now having the equivalent of two third rung skills for no apparent reason.  On top of that Ike and Lyn got a 5 BST bonus for no apparent reason.  If it was a one time thing awarded to the CYL winners, I could have lived with it, but now both Sigurd and Ayra got the BST bonus and overpowered Legendary weapons for and I'm worried this is going to be a new trend which will make all the old units overshadowed in every way.  They could have made good units staying within the established parameters of the game.  This level of power creep when the game isn't even a year old is concerning, they could have at least waited for the game to settle or stagnate and need a kick in the knees to rejuvenate it, but it was still going strong and all these changes are too soon and unnecessary.

Like it or not, power creep is what keeps people engaged with the product and hyped for new and interesting units.  I'm sure they could make good units within the established parameters, but that wouldn't be exciting; it wouldn't make people hyped.  When people see their favourite characters (especially if it took forever for them to get into the game), they want them to be good enough to reflect that wait.  That's why characters like Oscar and Tailtu, characters who are good units within the established parameters, are not very exciting units to pull (unless you're hurting for a blue cav/blue mage, of course) despite being great units in their own right.  They just don't offer anything new, interesting, or different.  The meta would also stagnate if the only new units being introduced were ones who were good within the previously established confines (not immediately, but fairly quickly).

I also disagree that it's as bad as you say, considering most units have not lost relevancy since SI was introduced into the game (now that was the real gamechanger); actually, I'm pretty sure more units have gained relevance just because they're anti-meta (who was using Raven tome units before Brave Lyn, for example).  Additionally, mechanics such as Seals help address powercreep as well (as much as I hate them for nerfing Reinhardt :<).  Maybe it'll get so bad that using older units is straight up gimping yourself, but it is not even close to this point yet.

On 10/19/2017 at 2:57 PM, Superbus said:

Vincent mentions that this game is better than other gachas. He's right; I've only played a few (P&D, Tales and Fate GO, the latter of which is terrible), but reported on the industry long enough to know how bad it can truly get. But with this system and the focus on making money that it has, things are going to escalate. Power creep is a thing in games like this for a reason; it's how to get players to keep spending, and you're not going to do that with Defiant Atk. This was inevitable, and anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if behind the scenes, we found out that more math was skewing the up-front numbers. If you'd told me that in the Tempest focus that Ayra had a lower pull chance than the Incest Twins, or if they were lowering the 5* rate for whales, I wouldn't bat an eyelash.

Vince is right. This is a bad precedent. But it was designed to be a bad precedent and I'm shocked we didn't hit it sooner.

Mmm, this is definitely true.  Something like the Ayra fiasco was bound to happen sooner or later, but it's fine to call a spade a spade regardless (even if you saw it coming).

On 10/19/2017 at 4:18 PM, The Geek said:

This is the name of the game.  I don't get why people are complaining about this being scummy when you consider that this is the entire point of these kinds of games.  This is where they make all of their money.

I agree that people who expected this game to be otherwise were overly naive, but it's fine if they complain about it.  Complaining about shitty, scummy business practices is perfectly fine.

On 10/19/2017 at 4:54 PM, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I agree this is bad precedent for FEH standard but mostly because why the fuck did they not inform players about Ayra 

What i want going forward is just for them to start buffing up older weapons and no they dont need to go overboard with the effect. Even a super lazy slap a +3 stats would be cool

Yeah, them not informing the players is my main (and only issue, really) with the way IS handled this.  It's fine if you want to charge money for the new hotness (expecting her to be free was probably a bit much), but don't throw it at players out of nowhere on a repeat banner of all things.

On 10/19/2017 at 5:32 PM, AndrewMcC00l said:

One thing I saw other talk about that I agree with is the fact that a large part of this power creep is caused by uninheritable skills.  Tana and Guidance was the best example I saw. While the unit the skill came on was good, if you didn't like Tana you could give Guidance to somebody else. Yet Ayra, who comes two skills that could save the overall fairly bad Myrmidon units (being Ayra's Blade and Regnant Astra) is also the only unit that can use those skills.

The fact that Ayra, of all characters, got such treatment scares me the most. Sigurd I can justify by the fact that he's arguably the most overpowered lord in the franchise and him getting CYL treatment is just their way of carrying that fact over. He also spends a large part of the plot trying to reunite with his father, and fatherhood tied together all the CYL units. He even got Tyrfing from his father, just like the others got their weapon from their fathers. With Ayra, it's much harder for me to justify. She gets trainee stats because she starts out a little underwhelming but becomes a monster? She gets her own personal sword because units couldn't trade in FE4? Regnant Astra because in Jugdral Astra/Meteor Blade is a bonus of Od blood? I get that Ayra is pretty popular (She's one of my favorites from FE4 too), but I don't think she deserves all these toys. And if Ayra can get all these bonuses, imagine what a more important character will get.

I mean, you still have to pull the unit either way.  Better skills being inheritable or not doesn't change the main issue with power creep, which is that you need to pull the new units in order to keep up with the meta (which I don't believe is the case as of now, which is why the existing power creep doesn't bother me).

I don't get why Ayra of all people has all of these ridiculous tools too.  The waifu power is too strong, I guess.

23 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Ok heres my question

Why is it okay for Sigurd to get special treatment for being the most overpowered lord when:

Marth the OG and the third most overpowered lord

Robin the most overpowered UNIT in the series bar none

Seth who was Sigurds rival for #1

Seliph the second most overpowered lord 

Doesnt get them. And yes they can deliver Sigurd as a very strong unit without favoritism just reduce his defense by 4 or def by 2 res by 2 and you get the exact same thing for the most part

Base game state does not justify being overpowered in this game. Mind i dont even think Sigurd is all that good 

What the fuck man

Don't forget Alm like that :(.  FE2!Alm is better than FE1!Marth IMO.

12 hours ago, Armagon said:

However, what i don't like is the uninheritable A-B-C Skills. Sacae and Beroc's Blessing were fine because they were the Skills of CYL Ike and Lyn, and it was a very special event. I guess i can make a pass for Crusader's Ward too, since it'd be weird for someone aside from Sigurd to have it. But why are the Recovery and Follow-Up Rings uninheritable? Follow-Up Ring would've been amazing for my Sophia and, tbh, there's a ton of units that could benefit from those rings. There's no reason for them to be uninheritable.

I...can't believe you unironically asked why Arden's broken ass ring is uninheritable.  That would destroy the meta and be obnoxious as fuck to deal with.

[LuxSpes]

7 hours ago, Superbus said:

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not defending the game just because others are worse. I'm literally saying that the design of the system being used is bad and there is no real defence. The fact that it hasn't been outright shitty until now is more of a happy accident. I can assure you: I would never have gotten into it had it not been Fire Emblem, and even then, IS has - by far - the best system. Even your initial 1* Virion can be a good unit with some effort; I can't say the same for low-star units in the few others I've tolerated long enough to play a bit. But in no way is that a defence; damning with faint praise might be more appropriate.

Without reading the entire thread again, I think someone mentioned that part of the problem was that people said "I'm surprised IS did this to us!". Noble, but also naive. I don't know if they've changed since the FESS days, but back then - I'm going back over a decade - they were quite difficult to deal with from a fandom perspective. Furthermore, the $50 "Season Pass" for a Gaiden remake, three separate games to tell one "canon" story, whatever the hell is going on in Warriors, the increased focus on fanservice (which is saying something!)... these decisions stick in my craw because they're decidedly anti-consumer. IS - and really, no mid to large tier developer - is worthy of "trust". Cautious optimism, maybe. But never, ever trust.

I can agree to your point. I guess most people who are concerned by the recent event are people who's first introduction to the gacha model was this game. Till this point, the game, as you said, had been much better than its competition at being transparent and player friendly and as thus, I think a lot of us got lulled into complacency toward IS. This sudden scummy move is a wake-up call for a lot of those persons and after seeing that it apparently succeeded in giving IS tons of cash (their placement on the app earnings ranking skyrocketed recently), I feel like most people will now see this game for what it truly is.

Though I think a lot of people, even others who had experience the gacha model, were hoping that the previously good practices of the devs and the relative success of the game indicated that it would take longer before they started resorting to scummy cash grabs like this. The game's not even 1 year old yet and we have surprise bait banners and units that breaks the established BST rules already. As I said, earlier, between how they handled the Slaying weapons and this situation, my level of tolerance toward  what I will accept from the devs has plummeted. If they pull anything as bad or worse than this, I'll probably call it quits.

[Armagon]

40 minutes ago, Refa said:

I...can't believe you unironically asked why Arden's broken ass ring is uninheritable.  That would destroy the meta and be obnoxious as fuck to deal with.

Ok so what about Arvis' Recovery Ring then? Why is that uninheritable?

[kcirrot]

Question:  

I've seen a lot of people make reference to some variation of "there are defined rules for BST."  What is the basis for that statement?

To the best of my knowledge, IS has never explicitly provided ground rules that bind their conduct in this manner.  It seems that many people make inferences, perhaps reasonable inferences, based on available facts.  But those inferences aren't rules.  

Of course, I could be wrong.  So could someone point me to where there is a defined rubric for determining the stats of units? Because otherwise I can't see where the basis for some of these complaints lie.

[kcirrot]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

Ok so what about Arvis' Recovery Ring then? Why is that uninheritable?

I think that the un-inheritable skills provide a means to give a character an individual identity and a reason for use instead of a dispenser for skills.

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

Ok so what about Arvis' Recovery Ring then? Why is that uninheritable?

Oh, I think that's dumb too.  It's probably for consistency's sake but I don't see any reason to leave it stuck on Arvis.

Just now, kcirrot said:

Question:  

I've seen a lot of people make reference to some variation of "there are defined rules for BST."  What is the basis for that statement?

To the best of my knowledge, IS has never explicitly provided ground rules that bind their conduct in this manner.  It seems that many people make inferences, perhaps reasonable inferences, based on available facts.  But those inferences aren't rules.  

Of course, I could be wrong.  So could someone point me to where there is a defined rubric for determining the stats of units? Because otherwise I can't see where the basis for some of these complaints lie.

Before CYL, every unit fell into predefined stat spreads with limited variance (generally ~1-2).  Obviously IS never explicitly provided ground rules, why would they choose to limit themselves in such a manner?  Regardless of whether or not they stated it as an explicit rule, the fact remains that Bike/BLyn/Sigurd/Ayra all have higher BST than they should considering every previously established unit (which is the definition of power creep).

Just now, kcirrot said:

I think that the un-inheritable skills provide a means to give a character an individual identity and a reason for use instead of a dispenser for skills.

Fair enough on this, I do agree even though I'd like for the weaker ones to be inheritable.

[Armagon]

2 minutes ago, kcirrot said:

I think that the un-inheritable skills provide a means to give a character an individual identity and a reason for use instead of a dispenser for skills.

I get that but that's why Legendary Weapons exist. Like, i wouldn't mind seeing uninheritable Skills if it makes sense for the character. Sacae and Beroc's Blessing make sense for B!Lyn and B!Ike. Crusader's Ward makes sense for Sigurd. Black Luna makes sense for Black Knight and Regnal Astra makes sense for Ayra. But what special association do Arvis and Arden have with their respective rings? Follow-Up Ring is a tribute to Pursuit, but why is it stuck on Arden when there were plenty of other units that could use it? You could lock Follow-Up Ring to Talitiu and i'd still make the same complaint. Same for Recovery Ring.

And i just thought of something regarding this

47 minutes ago, Refa said:

I...can't believe you unironically asked why Arden's broken ass ring is uninheritable.  That would destroy the meta and be obnoxious as fuck to deal with.

Except it actually wouldn't because there'd be at most, 2 chances for someone to get Follow-Up Ring. Unless a Tempest Trial Mini is run again and Arden is the reward again, people will always have, at most, 2 Follow-Up Rings. It's not like you can make a full team of Follow-Up Ring users and there's still plenty of good B-Skills out there, some that are more optimal for certain units than Follow-Up Ring.

[Refa]

Just now, Armagon said:

And i just thought of something regarding this

Except it actually wouldn't because there'd be at most, 2 chances for someone to get Follow-Up Ring. Unless a Tempest Trial Mini is run again and Arden is the reward again, people will always have, at most, 2 Follow-Up Rings. It's not like you can make a full team of Follow-Up Ring users and there's still plenty of good B-Skills out there, some that are more optimal for certain units than Follow-Up Ring.

Because it'd be every breaker rolled up into one skill on initiation (with the caveat that it wouldn't work against units with a breaker against your weapon type) and a better version of Quick Riposte on defense.  Just two units on every team with this skill would be enough to make it meta defining in the most obnoxious way.

[kcirrot]

11 minutes ago, Refa said:

Before CYL, every unit fell into predefined stat spreads with limited variance (generally ~1-2).  Obviously IS never explicitly provided ground rules, why would they choose to limit themselves in such a manner?  Regardless of whether or not they stated it as an explicit rule, the fact remains that Bike/BLyn/Sigurd/Ayra all have higher BST than they should considering every previously established unit (which is the definition of power creep).

Consider this: Sigurd and Ayra are sword units.  It is well understood that sword units are at a distinct disadvantage in this meta.  Someone even put up a meme on the Reddit of Robin still being an effective counter to these units (even if Robin v Sigurd is a snooze fest).  This doesn't even get to Reinhardt.

Perhaps IS is recognizing that for new reds to be viable they need a bit of a boost to make them viable.  Power creep isn't always a bad thing.

Edited October 21, 2017 by kcirrot

[Refa]

4 minutes ago, kcirrot said:

Consider this: Sigurd and Ayra are sword units.  It is well understood that sword units are at a distinct disadvantage in this meta.  Someone even put up a meme on the Reddit of Robin still being an effective counter to these unit (even if Robin v Sigurd is a snooze fest).  This doesn't even get to Reinhardt.

Perhaps IS is recognizing that for new reds to be viable they need a bit of a boost to make them viable.  Power creep isn't always a bad thing.

I don't think power creep is intrinsically bad, though (I just made a post talking about how it was fine in the context of FE Heroes), but you have to admit that it is power creep.  Do sword units all of unit deserve to get power creep buffs?  Probably.

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

This will happen eventually though. Eventually there's going to be that one Skill that's so good, it redefines the meta. What difference does it make that it happens now vs it happening later? 

You're shifting the goal posts.  Pursuit being inheritable by everyone would be broken and obnoxious to deal with right now.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Refa

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, Refa said:

Just two units on every team with this skill would be enough to make it meta defining in the most obnoxious way.

This will happen eventually though. Eventually there's going to be that one Skill that's so good, it redefines the meta. What difference does it make that it happens now vs it happening later? 

[Troykv]

8 minutes ago, Armagon said:

This will happen eventually though. Eventually there's going to be that one Skill that's so good, it redefines the meta. What difference does it make that it happens now vs it happening later? 

Well, this skill looks too broken even in paper... that the only way to avoid this thing become disgusting is to give it only to Armor Knights.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Troykv

[Charmeleonbrah]

6 minutes ago, kcirrot said:

Consider this: Sigurd and Ayra are sword units.  It is well understood that sword units are at a distinct disadvantage in this meta.  Someone even put up a meme on the Reddit of Robin still being an effective counter to these unit (even if Robin v Sigurd is a snooze fest).  This doesn't even get to Reinhardt.

Perhaps IS is recognizing that for new reds to be viable they need a bit of a boost to make them viable.  Power creep isn't always a bad thing.

Agree.  This spurt of Genealogy characters is probably to:

1. Give red units some well-needed love

2. Throw FE4 a bone, considering it's lack of representation so far

3. Developers have a fetish for Ayra, and channeled their anime thirst to create a new S+ tier unit that may or may not break the game