Worst Fire Emblem Lord?

[Azz]

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Because of reasonable circumstances. The Greil Mercs' workload, and then Sanaki had no choice either, she also had issues of her own to deal with. She needed to use Ike and his group to help free some laguz slaves and stop Oliver. She wouldn't have had much help stopping them otherwise since a lot of people around her were not reliable. She also needed to test Ike's loyalty and strength. Ike dodging some consequences were at least reasonably justified.

And his flaws were still not completely ignored or praised.

Yeah, but his flaws never seriously effect him. All he ever gets is a slap on the wrist and never faces any long term repercussions like Leif or Eirika.

For me personally:

Story wise, the avatars, namely Kris and Corrin. RJWalker's write up about about sums up my opinion of Kris. For reference. As for Corrin, they are just generally bad. I don't mind Corrin as much nowadays cause Warriors gave me a bit of appreciation for her however, she is still a shitty lord none the less regardless of the route.

Runner ups are Ike, Ephraim and Seliph.

Gameplay wise, Marth from FE11. While I love FE11, Marth was debuffed horribly from FE 1 and 3 it's sad. Thank god his character is decent tho.

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Well, sometimes conveniences like that happen even in real life. People get lucky sometimes and sometimes they get unlucky. So what's wrong with putting that in stories?

Reality and fiction are judged differently. Because fiction is a controlled enviroment, situations like "always lucky" and "always unlucky" are placed under more scrutinity (not unlike when people accuse of cheating or rigging). So Ike's "always lucky" would receive more raised eyebrows in fiction than in reality.

There's also the matter that fiction and reality also work differently. Can you name a situation that mirrors the Begnion events of PoR, and how it differs or goes the same as the game's?

Quote

Also, we'd have basically no more story progression if Ike and his group did get grounded in the fort or thrown in prison.

We can. Since fiction is a controlled enviroment, the writers would think up a scenario on how to have the story progress.

It's like when Leif is captured in Thraccia 776. Sety and his group stage a prison break, because they heard of Leif's capture and so plan said rescue.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Christactics said:

If the writing was better, It's perhaps not an exaggeration to even say that it could have been one of the best FE titles. I actually didn't mind the second gens being in Fates, but clones were too big of a stretch. Also notable that whichever one you pick, you get a pretty similar experience (excluding revelation). Fates and Corrin were just victims of failed writing. It was also sad to know that the amount of fanservice increased so much, as one of the reason why I enjoyed Awakening (the first game in the series I played) was because of its minimal fanservice, unlike many JRPG titles.

No doubt about it. I don't disagree with the idea that Fates could have been one of the best titles ever. The potential was all there. Each path had the ability to be something incredible. But they wasted it all to try to cash in on the popularity that Awakening brought them. 

Seriously, you're okay with the hyperbolic time chamber children?

42 minutes ago, Christactics said:

Agreed. I always thought of their behavior as a sort of coping mechanism to deal with the living hell they had to endure.

Because that's precisely what it is. They are just trying to avoid losing themselves. Inigo even says so as much when in his father supports, where he confesses that he needed to keep the happy flirtatious attitude so that people would not lose faith.

[Anacybele]

13 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

We can. Since fiction is a controlled enviroment, the writers would think up a scenario on how to have the story progress.

It wouldn't be easy to come up with something that works well enough though.

14 minutes ago, Azz said:

Yeah, but his flaws never seriously effect him.

They don't need to though. Why should every character always have a serious consequence for every mistake? Not every mistake results in serious consequences.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

It wouldn't be easy to come up with something that works well enough though.

They don't need to though. Why should every character always have a serious consequence for every mistake? Not every mistake results in serious consequences.

That's a matter of perspective. For the writers, it could be, or it could not be. Or they could go another route altogether.

It's as they say. One is happenstance, two is coincidence, three is enemy action. It accumulates.

[omegaxis1]

41 minutes ago, Skylorella Con said:

What reason did Marth have to join Nyna's quest when he had his own kingdom to save?

Because ultimately, the enemy was Dolhr, that was the nation that took over Altea, and was allied with Gra, and being supported by Nyna allowed Marth the best method of having soldiers, resources, and morale to keep the liberation going. And even after he took back Altea, remember that his sister was still in Gharnef's clutches, so he had to stop him. And he knows that Medeus would not stop his war and would always wage it, so he had to be stopped. 

So by all means, Marth had every reason to join Nyna's quest.

43 minutes ago, Skylorella Con said:

Alm also had no reason to join the deliverance especially when his own grandfather refused yet he still did.

Actually, he had every reason, because:

A) He wanted to leave the village to explore on his own for a long time. This was a very good excuse to go. 

B) He respected his grandfather a lot, and the idea that he might be labeled as a craven for refusing to join the Deliverance is something Alm cannot abide by. This is not that unrealistic, as people would want to defend their family members and would go to great measures in some cases. 

C) This one is absolutely minor, so pay little heed, but Alm's case of the Brand had it foretold that he was destined to save Valentia, so we could mark it as fate that he would go there. However, like I said, this is minor thing.

[John Denver Fan]

I would say Celica, I hardly use her because she is terrible. 

[omegaxis1]

20 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

They don't need to though. Why should every character always have a serious consequence for every mistake? Not every mistake results in serious consequences.

I'll be honest. I do not agree with this line of reasoning at all. The case of there not being any serious consequences to actions is poor writing. A character that manages to avoid receiving any serious backlash from their decisions? Even Corrin wasn't that lucky, and almost everyone calls him a Mary Sue. 

Ike actually should have received more backlash for his decisions. He really should have gotten at least a few serious ones since he was still very new to leadership position that he was forced into. 

[Anacybele]

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'll be honest. I do not agree with this line of reasoning at all. The case of there not being any serious consequences to actions is poor writing. A character that manages to avoid receiving any serious backlash from their decisions? Even Corrin wasn't that lucky, and almost everyone calls him a Mary Sue. 

Ike actually should have received more backlash for his decisions. He really should have gotten at least a few serious ones since he was still very new to leadership position that he was forced into. 

...Wow, seriously? I highly disagree with this.

I'm not saying a character should NEVER receive backlash. That's a big no. But it's just as unrealistic for every single mistake to get serious backlash. Some mistakes should get that. But not all of them. Not at all.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

...Wow, seriously? I highly disagree with this.

I'm not saying a character should NEVER receive backlash. That's a big no. But it's just as unrealistic for every single mistake to get serious backlash. Some mistakes should get that. But not all of them. Not at all.

I didn't say he should receive serious backlash from ALL. But just a few. One or two at the very least. It would really help the character grow. 

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I didn't say he should receive serious backlash from ALL. But just a few. One or two at the very least. It would really help the character grow. 

Yes, that's what I meant as well. Sorry for the confusion.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yes, that's what I meant as well. Sorry for the confusion.

So the issue is: Did Ike receive any severe backlash from his actions? 

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

So the issue is: Did Ike receive any severe backlash from his actions? 

I thought he received enough, generally.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I thought he received enough, generally.

From what I've gathered here, he only received harsh scoldings and warnings really, but never actually had to go through the consequences.

[Anacybele]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

From what I've gathered here, he only received harsh scoldings and warnings really, but never actually had to go through the consequences.

Yeah, he didn't need to because of the circumstances of the story. Him not going through consequences there was justified reasonably by the story.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, he didn't need to because of the circumstances of the story. Him not going through consequences there was justified reasonably by the story.

Personally, I feel these are actually flaws of the story and prevented Ike from developing as well as he could have. He's still good, but lost some of the better potential that he had.

[Etrurian emperor]

On 11-12-2017 at 6:43 PM, Icelerate said:

Also, when Ike goes to war with Begnion, he doesn't even stop to think whether it's a good idea or not. Compare that to other FE lords who actually think about what they're doing is right or not. What's worse is that other characters act totally out of character just to make Ike look good. Shinon is racist yet doesn't even complain to Ike about going to war on the same side as the laguz. Soren also dislikes the laguz and knows of Begnion's might yet doesn't criticize Ike. Titania weakly suggests that it might not be a good idea because of the medallion but then this isn't ever brought up again until it is too late. Contrast this with Soren and Shinon in PoR or Sothe criticizing Micaiah.

I agree with most of the things you said and about Ike being a bit to impressive in Rd in general. But this bit doesn't seem entirely fair. 

The characters do have a conversation about how its dangerous to do this when Lehran's medallion is still around but Ranulf assures them its fine. Ranulf also ask Ike if he's really comfortable with fighting for the Laguz and Ike says he is because he thinks the Laguz are in the right. The choice is in line with Ike's character because Ike has always had pro Laguz sentiment and has always been dismissive of the Begnion nobles. 

Shinon also does complain rather vocally in a base conversation. That we don't see more of it is probably because he's a relatively minor character stuck in an enormous cast rather then to make Ike look better. Soren also lets it slips he's not entirely happy with the situation but he always follows Ike even if he disagrees with his course. 
When raiding the army camp Soren also points out to let the Senators live. I always assumed this meant the Greils weren't out to permanently burn bridges between them and Begnion. 

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's the thing. The Mercs conveniently had that amount of workload for Ike to escape most of the punishment. Same for Sanaki and her predicament coinciding with Ike and Elincia's arrival so Ike's actions get mostly swept away. While such contrives and coincidences aren't out of the norm for a work of fiction, Ike's take on the matter is what makes the difference.

And once more, it's about the consequences, not the aknowledgement.

I see that scene as basically being there to convey the character of Ike and Sanaki.

Through the exchange we see that Ike is a complete stranger in the realm of nobles and that he's overall very hostile to the upper classes. On a more positive note the scene also portrays him as fiercely loyal.  Meanwhile Sanaki suddenly switching from being bratty to not punishing Ike is meant to make clear she's actually not so bad. I don't see the scene particularly catering to Ike. He gets a stern warning from Sanaki that she's not going to excuse it a second time and his companions scold him for nearly ruining Elincia's chances. He even needs to accept that someone he really doesn't like at that point in the game ended up saving him. 

I also don't think its a matter of contrivances and coincidences. Of course Ike arrives when Sanaki is doing her investigation because the whole slavery situation seems to be a very big priority in her reign that she's been addressing since long before Ike arrived. 

[TheWill]

8 hours ago, Slumber said:

Throwing Marth under the bus because 50% of the Lords in the franchise are modeled after him seems odd.

I also find it funny that you say this when Roy and Leif are basically complete opposites, to the point where I'm starting to wonder if you've played their games or payed attention to their stories. Roy's deal is that he's incredibly well learned, optimistic and he's a great strategist that doesn't want to hurt people, even his enemies. He almost always makes the right decisions and knows the best ways to keep his vastly underpowered army strong against the titan army that is Bern. The few times where he doesn't have the answers, the answers basically come to him.

Leif, meanwhile, is angry, emotional, and short-sighted when it comes to fulfilling his goals, which are mostly violent in nature. It leads to him making many critical errors in his game, which result in him being captured and his liberation force disbanding, several territories he liberates being taken again, and the death of one of his strategists. Thracia's an entire game about Leif overcoming his weaknesses and becoming a leader, and virtually nothing else. The game doesn't have some continent-ending conflict at the center, it's just Leif trying to liberated his corner of Thracia and avenge his grandfather. And, depending on if you want to use secondary material, he's also INCREDIBLY insecure that he's Seliph's cousin, since everyone sees Seliph as this messiah figure and Leif is basically just chopped liver.

Marth obviously gets a pass in relation to the other lords due to being the original lord, however the rest remain weak and relatively uninteresting. 

I'm in the middle of placing Thracia and it may be due to extremely poor translation, however I have yet to get that impression from Leif at all. He falls in the exact same line as the other three as a good-hearted, young - yet talented leaders. It doesn't help that the four almost have essentially the same, or similar backstories (with Roy's being the weakest). I have yet to see any form of anxiety in Leif's story arc, but again, I have yet to complete the game. 

[Armagon]

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Anyways, saying that he's far from the best and then saying that he's not that bad sounds like favouritism.

Except it doesn't. I can say "Roy isn't the best Lord" and also say "Roy also isn't the worst Lord" and it would make sense. There's no favoritism here. Just because you're not the best doesn't mean you're the worst. Of course, since this is FE6 we're talking about and you seem to have an anti-FE6 passion for whatever reason, i wouldn't expect you to understand that. Like, no offense but we have Glaceon Mage offering valid points here and you're just dismissing them because you hate Roy and FE6.

[edgelordweeaboo]

10 hours ago, Christactics said:

I can't say anything about Roy, Ike, and Sigurd as I never played any of the games where they come out, but I can say something about Corrin and Lucina.

I agree that Corrin is not the best lords out there and yes, everybody kisses their butt all the time, but the thing is, they were intended to be weak because they didn't know anything about reality outside the castle (if you are saying weak unit-wise, I never thought they were a bad unit and had no trouble using them.) I don't understand how Corrin can be described as bland and having no resolve. As far as I know about the other lords of the franchise, Corrin is one of the most distinguished lord in the series, far from being bland. They are unlike the other lords. They are naive, emotionally weak, and somewhat childish. Also, their determination is what really drives the plot forward, so you can't really say that they have no resolve. Corrin will definitely make a kind but absolutely terrible leader of a country though. They might not be good lord-wise, but when it comes to personality, they are pretty interesting.

You also mentioned that Lucina is extremely bland. But thinking about what kind of life she had, it really is hard for a person to be cheery. It is understandable that her surrounding and what she had to go though formed her personality as what you might perceive as 'bland' and rather a bit stoic. However, she has her own quirks too, showing that she isn't completely a boring, serious person.

Honestly seems like quite a few people don't take the time to actually analyze Corrin and decide to immediately ride the Bandwagon of Corrin Hate just because they can be shown as annoying. Think about it. They are actually a (again) very interesting character.

the naive and childish part makes corrin too unfit to be a leader and they don't compensate in any way. he doesn't have anything interesting about him outside of that. seliph did the somewhat naive/inexperienced part better because he truly knew that it was war and there wasn't much he could do about it.

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Except it doesn't. I can say "Roy isn't the best Lord" and also say "Roy also isn't the worst Lord" and it would make sense. There's no favoritism here. Just because you're not the best doesn't mean you're the worst. Of course, since this is FE6 we're talking about and you seem to have an anti-FE6 passion for whatever reason, i wouldn't expect you to understand that. Like, no offense but we have Glaceon Mage offering valid points here and you're just dismissing them because you hate Roy and FE6.

How so?  That's a mediocre level and in Roy's case, he is way below that level. I get that Roy is a good leader but saying that he isn't the worst unit is completely ignoring all the issues he has in the first place for a unit that is required the whole time. 

And I didn't dismiss them. All I did was giving my hypothesis on the topic of resolve that's it. 

@Glaceon Mage For the record, I did beat at least fe12 and I can say that Marth expressed more in the plot compared to the originals where Marth had to be taught nearly everything.

 

[Armagon]

24 minutes ago, Harvey said:

How so?  That's a mediocre level and in Roy's case, he is way below that level. I get that Roy is a good leader but saying that he isn't the worst unit is completely ignoring all the issues he has in the first place for a unit that is required the whole time. 

You honestly can't tell me that Roy is a worse unit than Sophia (i'll always use Sophia but she's definitely worse than Roy), the Knights, maybe Oiger and Fae (Fae's immensely held back by the fact that she can only use one weapon in the game and it breaks after 30 uses). Roy isn't the best unit but by no means is he the worst. He's decent up until Ch.14, falls behind, then comes back in Ch.22. He's easier to manage in Normal (i personally don't play FE6 Hard because early game, everyone hits too weak and dies too easily, unless your name is Marcus).

24 minutes ago, Harvey said:

And I didn't dismiss them. All I did was giving my hypothesis on the topic of resolve that's it. 

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

Roy may be the best leader IS has ever thought of in terms of brain power(which I disagree because I think Marth does it better atleast in FE12 and 11) but that doesn't mean shit if he can't even do shit right so he sucks nonetheless.

 

 

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

You honestly can't tell me that Roy is a worse unit than Sophia

Of course I can. Sophia isn't forced to be used except to get one free guilding ring and that only appears in the chapter she starts with. Roy on the other hand is forced throughout the entire game. Also, he promotes late unlike Sophia who can promote early. availability wise, Roy is obviously the best but that doesn't mean a thing if he doesn't have any more room for growth till his promotion starts. Sophia atleast acts like an est in that when you train her well, she can be a solid unit but that is just too hard to do and not worth the effort. Also, she has more than one weapon type unlike Roy who is swordlocked the entire game.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

He's decent up until Ch.14, falls behind, then comes back in Ch.22. He's easier to manage in Normal (i personally don't play FE6 Hard because early game, everyone hits too weak and dies too easily, unless your name is Marcus).

There's that topic again that normal units are fine but hard they aren't. Its getting sick to deal with that kind of crap which is only proving the point that the game has unit balance issues.

And no, Roy can't do that well till chapter 14 because again, swordlocked and low move are still apparent and don't give me that crap about giving boots to him because there are other units that can do better with it like Rutger or Dieck.

Just because he's easier to deal with on normal doesn't mean that he's tolerable even in tricky situations. You like the character and that's fine but you just have to accept that he's not a good unit until endgame.

 

 

[Acacia Sgt]

Roy being swordlocked isn't that bad in the early game due to the abundance of axes or thing weak to the Rapier.

Take Chapter 1, for example. 14 enemies, and 12 are axe users.

Or Chapter 4, which has 26 enemies (32 on Hard), and 19 (25 on Hard) use either axes or are Rapier-weak Cavaliers.

It helps that the Western Islands chapter are mostly dominated with axe-using enemies. And Chapter 13 is Cavalier heavy as well. So yeah, swordlock ain't a bad thing up to Chapter 14.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Acacia Sgt