Worst Fire Emblem Lord?

[Armagon]

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Sophia isn't forced to be used except to get one free guilding ring and that only appears in the chapter she starts with. Roy on the other hand is forced throughout the entire game.

Whether or not Sophia is required is irrelevant. She's still a worse unit than Roy. 

Also, you do actually need her to get Forblaze, which is pretty important. She exists for more than just a free Guiding Ring.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Roy is obviously the best but that doesn't mean a thing if he doesn't have any more room for growth till his promotion starts.

He has a full 20 Levels before promotion. You know how most people like to wait until Lv.20 to promote? Roy will pretty much always reach Lv.20 before promotion, meaning he'll always get the most out of his level ups. His really late promotion is a bummer and it holds him back but whatever.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Also, she has more than one weapon type unlike Roy who is swordlocked the entire game.

Staffs aren't a weapon. And leveling up Staff rank in FE6 takes fucking forever so what difference does it make?

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

There's that topic again that normal units are fine but hard they aren't

That's true for a lot of games tbh. Some units really are harder to manage on higher difficulty. It's not an issue of game balance, it's just difficulty doing it's job. Not that FE6 doesn't have any balancing issues but if the same amount of management was applied to every unit relative to the difficulty, then what's the point of higher difficulties?

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

And no, Roy can't do that well till chapter 14 because again, swordlocked and low move are still apparent and don't give me that crap about giving boots to him because there are other units that can do better with it like Rutger or Dieck.

Swordlocked in a game where swords are the best weapon. Swordlocked in a game where a good portion of the first half of the game is Axe-Land. Also, Rapiers exist, helping him easily take down Cavaliers and Knights. Yes, Roy is able to hold up decently up until Ch.14. I've played Binding Blade about 7 times. I know this. As for the Boots, yeah, Rutger or Dieck can use it better but i'd much rather give it to Roy so he doesn't fall behind the rest of the army, movement-wise.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Armagon

[ping]

56 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Swordlocked in a game where swords are the best weapon. Swordlocked in a game where a good portion of the first half of the game is Axe-Land. Also, Rapiers exist, helping him easily take down Cavaliers and Knights. Yes, Roy is able to hold up decently up until Ch.14. I've played Binding Blade about 7 times. I know this. As for the Boots, yeah, Rutger or Dieck can use it better but i'd much rather give it to Roy so he doesn't fall behind the rest of the army, movement-wise.

I'd rather give the boots to Milady because rescue/drop is an awesome mechanic, but otherwise (as has been previously estabished, I suppose) I agree with this. If swordlock was such a dealbreaker, why is Rutger universally said to be one of the top units of the game? Sure, Roy isn't even close to being a top tier unit, but he does at least alright for more than half of the game.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, ping said:

I'd rather give the boots to Milady because rescue/drop is an awesome mechanic, but otherwise (as has been previously estabished, I suppose) I agree with this. If swordlock was such a dealbreaker, why is Rutger universally said to be one of the top units of the game? Sure, Roy isn't even close to being a top tier unit, but he does at least alright for more than half of the game.

Rutger's stats and the insane 30% crit rate. 

I feel like people are overstating the presence of axes in the early game. It's not just chapter 15 onward that gives Roy problems. Any time you're dealing with Bern, which I'd say is about half of the chapters between 2 and 14, you're bound to be swamped by lances, and if Roy loses his Rapier trying to save himself to Cavaliers, he's fucked. 

Plus, Roy is NOT a dodge tank, and he's not very durable. On enemy phases, he's not going to want to deal with Cavaliers any more than he wants to deal with anything else wielding a lance.

[ping]

35 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Rutger's stats and the insane 30% crit rate. 

Oh, I was being rhetorical. I'm quite aware that, and why, Rutger is a top tier unit and Roy isn't. I just wanted to stress that weaponlock, while certainly not a point in anyone's favour, doesn't automatically disqualify a unit. It just makes that unit less "universal" than others.

44 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I feel like people are overstating the presence of axes in the early game. It's not just chapter 15 onward that gives Roy problems. Any time you're dealing with Bern, which I'd say is about half of the chapters between 2 and 14, you're bound to be swamped by lances, and if Roy loses his Rapier trying to save himself to Cavaliers, he's fucked. 

I partly agree - axe wielders are indeed not that numerous before chapter 8x. I would say that Roy has four stages of usefulness over the course of the game - meh early-on (but still better than the bottom-tier characters of that phase of the game), quite decent on the isles, increasingly bad (but still able to do the occasional chip, if needed) when he is promotion-locked, and then suddenly good again for the very last part of the game. Not spectacular at all, but neither what I would call horrible - fwiw, if I didn't miscount, I ranked 20 units below him in Jules' democratic tier list, which would barely put him above the lowest third of that list. I'm really not saying that he's good.

The part where kinda disagree is that almost every unit struggles in some way in the earlygame. Heck, Allen will get two-shot by two fighters in chapter one if one of them rolls an additional point of strength. Enemies in FE6 are just relatively strong in general, so that (at least the way I see it) "doing alright" means a different thing than it does in FE7 or 8.

[Harvey]

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

Whether or not Sophia is required is irrelevant. She's still a worse unit than Roy. 

Also, you do actually need her to get Forblaze, which is pretty important. She exists for more than just a free Guiding Ring.

Saying she's worse because she comes late and that she is not required is odd because I can say the same thing for Lyn not being required for the entire game even if she is forced to cost a unit slot. 

Also, yeah she's needed but in that one chapter she starts with, its pretty doable to keep her alive. Its the crappy lord who has to be sent all the way to the damn throne room in due time which is the real deal.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

He has a full 20 Levels before promotion. You know how most people like to wait until Lv.20 to promote? Roy will pretty much always reach Lv.20 before promotion, meaning he'll always get the most out of his level ups. His really late promotion is a bummer and it holds him back but whatever.

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

That full 20 level ups aren't going to save him as his stats will start to stagnate during mid game especially the fact that there are too many lance units that he has to deal with. Till then, he can't grow any further except when using stat boosters which you rather should use on someone who needs them unlike Roy.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

Staffs aren't a weapon. And leveling up Staff rank in FE6 takes fucking forever so what difference does it make?

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

If at all she isn't good, she can atleast be good as a healer incase players lose units. Remember that there are people who can accept permadeath and move on.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

That's true for a lot of games tbh. Some units really are harder to manage on higher difficulty. It's not an issue of game balance, it's just difficulty doing it's job. Not that FE6 doesn't have any balancing issues but if the same amount of management was applied to every unit relative to the difficulty, then what's the point of higher difficulties?

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

The issue is using that to counter argue with the game's balance. If on normal everyone can be used, then the game is considered balanced according to you because you and others are trying to defend Roy's lack of utility to the extreme so that he appears decent when in reality, he's a pain to deal with throughout the entire game.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

Swordlocked in a game where swords are the best weapon. Swordlocked in a game where a good portion of the first half of the game is Axe-Land. Also, Rapiers exist, helping him easily take down Cavaliers and Knights. 

Issue isn't with hit rates. Its to do with weapon triangle disadvantage which sword users can have problems to deal with since this game has a notorious amount of lance enemies around.

 

[Slumber]

22 minutes ago, ping said:

The part where kinda disagree is that almost every unit struggles in some way in the earlygame. Heck, Allen will get two-shot by two fighters in chapter one if one of them rolls an additional point of strength. Enemies in FE6 are just relatively strong in general, so that (at least the way I see it) "doing alright" means a different thing than it does in FE7 or 8.

Right, but the thing is, you usually use those units for some kind of payoff. Yeah, Allen can get 2-shot with a high-roll Fighter, but you can either use him because he's a strong unit in the long run, and will show returns on investment pretty quickly, or you can just not use him.

Roy doesn't get either of these. Roy doesn't show any return on investment until chapter 22, and you're forced to use him. Far more of the game will be sheltering him than it will be actively using him, because he's much more of a liability than he is an asset.

[Armagon]

49 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Saying she's worse because she comes late and that she is not required is odd because I can say the same thing for Lyn not being required for the entire game even if she is forced to cost a unit slot. 

What the actual fuck does this even mean? Lyn doesn't come in late at all, especially if you do Lyn's Tale first. Comparing her to Sophia is just grasping at straws.

51 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Its the crappy lord who has to be sent all the way to the damn throne room in due time which is the real deal.

This isn't hard at all.

54 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Till then, he can't grow any further except when using stat boosters which you rather should use on someone who needs them unlike Roy

I'd argue Roy actually does need them. I'm not saying to dump every stat booster on him but dropping one or two is fine, depending on which of his stats need it the most.

56 minutes ago, Harvey said:

If at all she isn't good, she can atleast be good as a healer incase players lose units. Remember that there are people who can accept permadeath and move on.

See, that's just player choice though. By that logic, i can choose to dump all stat boosters on Roy and give him the best swords and make him the best unit in the game.

58 minutes ago, Harvey said:

If on normal everyone can be used, then the game is considered balanced according to you because you and others are trying to defend Roy's lack of utility to the extreme so that he appears decent when in reality, he's a pain to deal with throughout the entire game.

And you aren't bashing him (and FE6 in general) to the extreme? We're not saying that Roy is good. We're saying that he's not as bad as people think.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Its to do with weapon triangle disadvantage which sword users can have problems to deal with since this game has a notorious amount of lance enemies around.

No shit, that's why you've got Axe units around. But i don't remember that many Lance enemies being around during the Western Isles arc, which is where Roy is at his strongest, pre-Ch.22.

 

[ping]

@Slumber - Honestly, that's not my experience, not even on HM. Roy at level 12 (which is more than feasible to reach by chapter 9) has 11 speed on average, which will easily double steel axe enemies, ~35 avoid means that he faces about 20 disp.hit against them (potentially lower if he has some random support with Lilina, Allen, Lance, or Marcus), and if you give him the Angelic robe (which imho isn't a bad idea since it'll help against siege tomes later), he's even very likely to be able to tank two Steel Axe hits, so he could be used on enemy phase, as well.

This isn't outstanding, obviously, but it's still positive contribution (i.e. it's better to have him on the team than it would be to remove him without substitution). Again, I see Roy somewhere at the border between mid and low tier - I know that Rutger, Deke, the cavs, and the paladins can do all this better than Roy does, but he's still reasonable competent in the (early) midgame. Later in the game, when everyone around him is promoted, he obviously gets relatively weaker and weaker, but I honestly never really had that big trouble keeping him alive. But of course, his contributions are reduced to the occationally drawn ballistae shot or siege tome use, and to poke some enemy if it allows another unit to secure the kill or avoid a counterattack. Still, getting him to a point where he can hold his own on the isles really isn't that hard, and payoff for that is limited, but present.

[Harvey]

6 minutes ago, Armagon said:

What the actual fuck does this even mean? Lyn doesn't come in late at all, especially if you do Lyn's Tale first. Comparing her to Sophia is just grasping at straws.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

It means you don't have to use Sophia one bit after chapter 14. But in Roy's case, he's forced throughout the entire game.

6 minutes ago, Armagon said:

This isn't hard at all.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Sure it isn't. As long as you give that boots to a good flier, its not that hard...or is it?

After all, that IS the main issue with chapter 14. Doing so much with so little time.

8 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I'd argue Roy actually does need them. I'm not saying to dump every stat booster on him but dropping one or two is fine, depending on which of his stats need it the most.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

If his growth rates are good, he doesn't need much of stat boosters. The only one that he needs is probably a talisman and an angelic robe but since stat boosters are scarce unless you go to secret shops and do some arena abuse, you are better off using them on someone who NEEDS them. 

10 minutes ago, Armagon said:

See, that's just player choice though. By that logic, i can choose to dump all stat boosters on Roy and give him the best swords and make him the best unit in the game.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

That's not how FE6 cast works. The reason that there is such a large cast is so that the player doesn't end up in an unwinnable situation. Even if Rutger is killed, Fir is a good replacement of him. Same goes for Ogier and Dieck, Percival and Allance, Saul and Niime.

So if for some reason a player finds Ellen a pain to deal with, they can use Saul who is a better staff bot and if he gets killed, Niime can fill over his place. 

Its a choice to make but if the choice is chosen, the game has to be balanced for that and unfortunately, it isn't.

As for stat boosters, go arena abuse and do whatever the hell you want just to buff him because no one but you would even bother doing it.

15 minutes ago, Armagon said:

And you aren't bashing him (and FE6 in general) to the extreme? We're not saying that Roy is good. We're saying that he's not as bad as people think.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Of course I'm bashing him because he has literally no reason to be even useful besides seizing every throne and defeating the final boss. Early game has touch lancers around, chapter 9 may be kind to him but you're better off training Fir instead because she can do better than him and again...that horrible move he's stuck with throughout. Atleast Lyn is fine because you don't NEED to use her but Roy is NEEDED THE ENTIRE TIME! Why can't you accept that simple fact.

It doesn't matter how good of a character he is in the long run. It doesn't matter that he has a good affinity, it doesn't matter that he has huge supports and it also doesn't matter that he has rapier exclusivity either. Roy can never grow further no matter what nor is it even worthwhile to do so until the very end which is a pain in the ass.

22 minutes ago, Armagon said:

No shit, that's why you've got Axe units around. But i don't remember that many Lance enemies being around during the Western Isles arc, which is where Roy is at his strongest, pre-Ch.22.

 

Chapter 7 comes in mind as well as three and four. There are still a couple of strong lance users out there throughout the entire game. But I have an idea, why not play the game again to see it yourself?

 

[Armagon]

22 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Doing so much with so little time.

25 turns is enough time.

23 minutes ago, Harvey said:

It means you don't have to use Sophia one bit after chapter 14. But in Roy's case, he's forced throughout the entire game.

Sophia is still worse than Roy though. Literally, you are the first person i've seen who's arguing that Sophia is a better unit than Roy and it shows just how big your anti-Roy bias is.

25 minutes ago, Harvey said:

If his growth rates are good,

They are though? I mean, they're decent. Comparble enough to the other GBA Lords. The issue is that it's FE6, so Roy tends to be RNG-screwed.

29 minutes ago, Harvey said:

The only one that he needs is probably a talisman and an angelic robe but since stat boosters are scarce unless you go to secret shops and do some arena abuse, you are better off using them on someone who NEEDS them. 

Someone like Roy. 

31 minutes ago, Harvey said:

That's not how FE6 cast works. The reason that there is such a large cast is so that the player doesn't end up in an unwinnable situation. Even if Rutger is killed, Fir is a good replacement of him. Same goes for Ogier and Dieck, Percival and Allance, Saul and Niime.

Yeah but that's every game.

32 minutes ago, Harvey said:

As for stat boosters, go arena abuse and do whatever the hell you want just to buff him because no one but you would even bother doing it.

You're twisting my words here. I never said to dump all stat boosters on him. Just one or two is enough. That's not gonna hurt anyone.

34 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Roy is NEEDED THE ENTIRE TIME! Why can't you accept that simple fact.

You think i don't know that. Going by your logic, literally every unit is better than the Lord unit because they aren't required.

35 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Of course I'm bashing him because he has literally no reason to be even useful besides seizing every throne and defeating the final boss.

Huh, strange. So you get upset when me and others defend Roy but it's perfectly fine to bash him.

Also, Roy can be decently useful in the chapter arcs where he's good. I've played this game way more than you have, i would know.

37 minutes ago, Harvey said:

It doesn't matter how good of a character he is in the long run. It doesn't matter that he has a good affinity, it doesn't matter that he has huge supports and it also doesn't matter that he has rapier exclusivity either.

>It doesn't matter that he has these good things going for him.

You literally just listed some of his strongest gameplay aspects.

Harvey, please, your anti-Roy bias is so bad, it ain't even funny. 

38 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Chapter 7 comes in mind as well as three and four. There are still a couple of strong lance users out there throughout the entire game. But I have an idea, why not play the game again to see it yourself?

 

I'll gladly play it an 8th time. All that's gonna do is support my argument.

[Magical Glace]

28 minutes ago, Harvey said:

It means you don't have to use Sophia one bit after chapter 14. But in Roy's case, he's forced throughout the entire game.

This literally doesn't matter whatsoever when judging how good units are.  

29 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Sure it isn't. As long as you give that boots to a good flier, its not that hard...or is it?

After all, that IS the main issue with chapter 14. Doing so much with so little time.

Movement problems in Chapter 14 are hardly a Roy only thing.  Every non-mage footie and every non-winged pony suffers in that map.  

And either way, that's not what was said, you complained getting Roy to the throne is hard... which it's not.  Even if you don't give Shanna/Thea/Milady boots.  

33 minutes ago, Harvey said:

If his growth rates are good, he doesn't need much of stat boosters. The only one that he needs is probably a talisman and an angelic robe but since stat boosters are scarce unless you go to secret shops and do some arena abuse, you are better off using them on someone who NEEDS them. 

Given how much you complain about his stats/how annoying it is that he can't do anything, I'm surprised you think he doesn't need them, really.  

Anyway, who "needs" statboosters 1. Varies by playthrough due to RNG factor and 2. is entirely subjective.   I like to dump all my statboosters on Wolt and Roy.

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

That's not how FE6 cast works. The reason that there is such a large cast is so that the player doesn't end up in an unwinnable situation. Even if Rutger is killed, Fir is a good replacement of him. Same goes for Ogier and Dieck, Percival and Allance, Saul and Niime.

So if for some reason a player finds Ellen a pain to deal with, they can use Saul who is a better staff bot and if he gets killed, Niime can fill over his place. 

Its a choice to make but if the choice is chosen, the game has to be balanced for that and unfortunately, it isn't.

And...?  What does this have to do with Armagon's point on how bias makes anyone good, with bias being something Sophia needs a ton of to work as a staff bot?

This argument doesn't make any sense.

2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

The issue is that it's FE6, so Roy tends to be RNG-screwed.

Friendly reminder FE6 has the same RNG as 7 and 8.  

[Slumber]

54 minutes ago, ping said:

@Slumber - Honestly, that's not my experience, not even on HM. Roy at level 12 (which is more than feasible to reach by chapter 9) has 11 speed on average, which will easily double steel axe enemies, ~35 avoid means that he faces about 20 disp.hit against them (potentially lower if he has some random support with Lilina, Allen, Lance, or Marcus), and if you give him the Angelic robe (which imho isn't a bad idea since it'll help against siege tomes later), he's even very likely to be able to tank two Steel Axe hits, so he could be used on enemy phase, as well.

This isn't outstanding, obviously, but it's still positive contribution (i.e. it's better to have him on the team than it would be to remove him without substitution). Again, I see Roy somewhere at the border between mid and low tier - I know that Rutger, Deke, the cavs, and the paladins can do all this better than Roy does, but he's still reasonable competent in the (early) midgame. Later in the game, when everyone around him is promoted, he obviously gets relatively weaker and weaker, but I honestly never really had that big trouble keeping him alive. But of course, his contributions are reduced to the occationally drawn ballistae shot or siege tome use, and to poke some enemy if it allows another unit to secure the kill or avoid a counterattack. Still, getting him to a point where he can hold his own on the isles really isn't that hard, and payoff for that is limited, but present.

I agree that he can take down the axers pretty safely, but those are rarely ever a threat, even to your lance units, after the first few maps when you start gaining levels. The only time they become dangerous is when the game starts tossing Berserkers at you, and the game's insane crit rates make them a massive threat to ANYONE not at range(Roy's going to start having problems before then, anyway).

And yeah, I wouldn't toss Roy down there with the likes of Sophia or Gwendolyn, but FE6's bottom tier is so low that him being a tier above that isn't really cause for praise. Comparing him to virtually every other lord, which is where this whole argument stems from, I can't say I can think of a single one that performs worse.

Micaiah's going to be slow and squishy, but she's a walking nuke. She's generally a safe boss nuker, she promotes at the right times, she can start healing fairly early, and she can deal with most situations that don't put her up against Tiger Laguz. Eirika's not great, but she's in a game that's much easier and much more forgiving than FE6. Lyn gets Lyn Mode that can get her up to speed on Eliwood/Hector's route, can promote pretty early, is at least a safe dodge tank, and she also effectively gets TWO Manni Katis early-ish in the game, giving her a bit more longevity against most lancers than Roy(Also in a game more forgiving than Roy's). Leif starts with the Light Brand, gets leadership stars, Thracia's enemies being on the lower end of stats, and his stats are solid, being bolstered by him being the best person to hold a handful of scrolls for a good chunk of the game. Eliwood is basically Roy in a game where enemies aren't NEARLY as threatening, and his promotion being a bit better(Though his final weapon being noticeably worse).

In the grand scheme of things, you can extrapolate all of this to mean that even the worst Lord is usable, but there has to be a "Worst Lord" out there. And my hat goes to Roy in that case, as far as gameplay goes.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Slumber

[ping]

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

And yeah, I wouldn't toss Roy down there with the likes of Sophia or Gwendolyn, but FE6's bottom tier is so low that him being a tier above that isn't really cause for praise. Comparing him to virtually every other lord, which is where this whole argument stems from, I can't say I can think of a single one that performs worse.

SD!Marth, I'd say. ;)

But comparing units from different games can be tricky - for example, would Roy be a good unit in a hypothetical easy mode in which every stat on every enemy is reduced by 5? He would certainly perform much better, but compared to the rest of the cast, he'd still be below average. As such, I don't see (No-Lyn-Mode-)Lyn and Eliwood as significantly better than Roy: They both *look* better because most of the time the enemies in FE7 are considerably weaker than in FE6, but they're still closer to the low tier than the high tier of their game. But I acknowledge that this isn't an universal way of looking at things, so I'll go with "fair enough" as my last response - I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Roy is the weakest lord (even though I personally would nominate SD!Marth), I just don't think it's by such a huge margin as some folks in this thread are argueing.

[Slumber]

3 minutes ago, ping said:

SD!Marth, I'd say. ;)

But comparing units from different games can be tricky - for example, would Roy be a good unit in a hypothetical easy mode in which every stat on every enemy is reduced by 5? He would certainly perform much better, but compared to the rest of the cast, he'd still be below average. As such, I don't see (No-Lyn-Mode-)Lyn and Eliwood as significantly better than Roy: They both *look* better because most of the time the enemies in FE7 are considerably weaker than in FE6, but they're still closer to the low tier than the high tier of their game. But I acknowledge that this isn't an universal way of looking at things, so I'll go with "fair enough" as my last response - I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Roy is the weakest lord (even though I personally would nominate SD!Marth), I just don't think it's by such a huge margin as some folks in this thread are argueing.

I avoided SD!Marth in my argument for a reason *coughcough*.

Nobody's going to deny him being insanely bad. But I always have a hard time separating him from FE1 Marth, who is considerably less bad.

[Harvey]

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

25 turns is enough time.

Not to me it isn't.

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Sophia is still worse than Roy though. Literally, you are the first person i've seen who's arguing that Sophia is a better unit than Roy and it shows just how big your anti-Roy bias is.

I was referring to how she doesn't have to be used after 14. She is bad no doubt in that but at least she is not required to use unlike Roy and for those who want to use her, she can be decent at best. When you play Fe you want units whom you can rely on for the entire time and not the opposite and Roy is unreliable throughout.

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

You think i don't know that. Going by your logic, literally every unit is better than the Lord unit because they aren't required.

Technically yes. Be great full that you don't have to use fae all the damn time instead of just one chapter she for some reason is forced in.

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Huh, strange. So you get upset when me and others defend Roy but it's perfectly fine to bash him.

Also, Roy can be decently useful in the chapter arcs where he's good. I've played this game way more than you have, i would know.

As slumber has stated already, Roy is not a dodgetank so he is not going to get anywhere near those balistae or bolting mages for that matter. The rapier he had is not enough to kill a general on a 0 percent growth run not is it even sufficient to chip damage at. 

And it is fine to bash at him because he isn't properly balanced for what he is suppose to do. I would be fine if you have units who are balanced better than Roy and just take Roy to safety but even that is not possible because of all the units the game gives you, 14 of them are required, the rest can be skipped.

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

It doesn't matter that he has these good things going for him.

You literally just listed some of his strongest gameplay aspects.

Harvey, please, your anti-Roy bias is so bad, it ain't even funny. 

Let's look at his strong points 

Raiper basically acts like an iron sword with only slight changes in critical rate. It's only useful early on and after that, major chunk of units will be wyverns.

The affinity. It's a good one but the problem is that supports take too damn long and his only viable options are lillina and Allen/Lance because those Cavs are solid units and lillina is the fastest support that he has. It still isn't going to make him Dodge more or hit more.

Armagon please your favouritism isn't doing much to defend his utility.

 

[Armagon]

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Not to me it isn't.

Then that's a you problem.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

I was referring to how she doesn't have to be used after 14. She is bad no doubt in that but at least she is not required to use unlike Roy and for those who want to use her, she can be decent at best.

Again, whether or not Sophia has to be used is irrelevant. A lot of factors go in when comparing two units. Whether they're required or not isn't one of them. You keep arguing against this just to push your anti-Roy agenda.

8 hours ago, Harvey said:

When you play Fe you want units whom you can rely on for the entire time and not the opposite and Roy is unreliable throughout.

When you play FE, you play however the fuck you want. Normal, LTC, Iron Man, solo, one unit type-run. There is no "right" way to play Fire Emblem.

Also no, Roy isn't unreliable throughout the entire game because, again, Western Isles arc (and the early game in general).

8 hours ago, Harvey said:

Technically yes

...So, because every non-required unit in every FE is better than the Lord simply because they aren't required, what you're basically telling me is

• Clive is better than Alm
• Nino is better than Hector
• The Trainees are better than the Renais Twins
• Arden is better than Sigurd
• Corple is better than Seliph
• Rolf is better than Ike

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

As slumber has stated already, Roy is not a dodgetank so he is not going to get anywhere near those balistae or bolting mages for that matter. The rapier he had is not enough to kill a general on a 0 percent growth run not is it even sufficient to chip damage at.

And he's right, Roy isn't a dodgetank. You know what else Slumber said? That Roy isn't the worse unit in the game, something that you're so keen on arguing about.

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

And it is fine to bash at him because he isn't properly balanced for what he is suppose to do.

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

Armagon please your favouritism isn't doing much to defend his utility

And here is where you're problem lies. Whenever me or anyone else defends Roy, you cry "muh, favoritism" yet all of your Roy arguments are the exact opposite that. Even when people offer valid points, you dismiss them because your entire argument's basis is "Roy sucks because he sucks and i hate him" and i've already shown you why.

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

Raiper basically acts like an iron sword with only slight changes in critical rate.

The Rapier is more than that. It does bonus damage against Cavaliers and Knights, the former appears abundantly in the early-game, letting Roy get easy kills.

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

It's a good one but the problem is that supports take too damn long

That's something that affects literally every unit in FE6. Roy is lucky to have one of the fastest building Supports in the series, so he already has one of the better Supports in the game by default.

[Harvey]

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

You know what else Slumber said? That Roy isn't the worse unit in the game, something that you're so keen on arguing about.

 

20 hours ago, Slumber said:

In the grand scheme of things, you can extrapolate all of this to mean that even the worst Lord is usable, but there has to be a "Worst Lord" out there. And my hat goes to Roy in that case, as far as gameplay goes.

I'm not going to argue any further. Its beating a dead horse. All I can say is that no matter how you slice it, he's bad nonetheless with his only purpose is to complete the entire game.

 

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, Harvey said:

 

I'm not going to argue any further. Its beating a dead horse. All I can say is that no matter how you slice it, he's bad nonetheless with his only purpose is to complete the entire game.

 

Uh, even in that quote, I never said Roy was the worst unit in FE6.

[Harvey]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Uh, even in that quote, I never said Roy was the worst unit in FE6.

Worst lord, worst unit, what's the difference? In any case, I'll rephrase what I said that instead of him being worst unit, he's the worst lord.

Since I got quoted here:

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

And here is where you're problem lies. Whenever me or anyone else defends Roy, you cry "muh, favoritism" yet all of your Roy arguments are the exact opposite that. Even when people offer valid points, you dismiss them because your entire argument's basis is "Roy sucks because he sucks and i hate him" and i've already shown you why.

12 hours ago, Harvey said:

I did give valid points but the thing is you made "excuses" for them.

Me: Roy is bad because even with his early use, he can't grow further because he promotes late.

You: Well that's np. Use stat boosters!

Me: Roy has a shitty move in a game with long maps.

You: You're exaggerating things here. Just give him boots to fix that!

Me: He is swordlocked the entire time even after he promotes which means he'll have a hard time dealing with notorious lance units throughout. 

You: Well swords are the best weapon types in this game so that's a good thing man! Also I can't recall when I face that many lance users early on...

Me: He is  completely the most boring lord ever who just appears flawless.

You: What do you expect man? He's the brainy dude so it makes sense for him to be like that. Also, look up his supports as they are good enough.

Me: Roy is not balanced right.

You: On Normal, he's not as bad as what everyone says but Hard mode is a different story(even though I didn't bother to play it on hard.)

And it goes on and on and on.....

For real now, I'm done here.

 

[Magical Glace]

19 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Me: Roy is bad because even with his early use, he can't grow further because he promotes late.

You: Well that's np. Use stat boosters!

Me: Roy has a shitty move in a game with long maps.

You: You're exaggerating things here. Just give him boots to fix that!

Me: He is swordlocked the entire time even after he promotes which means he'll have a hard time dealing with notorious lance units throughout. 

You: Well swords are the best weapon types in this game so that's a good thing man! Also I can't recall when I face that many lance users early on...

Me: He is  completely the most boring lord ever who just appears flawless.

You: What do you expect man? He's the brainy dude so it makes sense for him to be like that. Also, look up his supports as they are good enough.

Me: Roy is not balanced right.

You: On Normal, he's not as bad as what everyone says but Hard mode is a different story(even though I didn't bother to play it on hard.)

No, that's not what Armagon said at all.

Pretty much the entire reason we go out of our way to argue with you is because a lot of what you say is A. exaggerated to an absurd degree, or B. Outright incorrect.  

He didn't say his promotion was "no problem."  He said the opposite actually.  He said you can help Roy with statboosters.

Roy has the same move as literally every infantry in the game, this isn't FE1/11 where move is all over the place.

He didn't say being swordlocked is good, he said it's not as detrimental as you're making it out to be.  He also pointed out that most of the lance units early are Cavs, which are weak to the Rapier.

Armagon and I have pointed out Roy's imperfections to you before, ie self esteem issues, inferiority complex.  We've also pointed put why they only come up in supports.  

Both of us have maintained the stance on Roy's gameplay being: "Not great, but people (you included) exaggerate his below average unit quality immensely."  And I have played on Hard, and I still maintain that stance.  

Edited December 14, 2017 by Glaceon Mage

[ping]

15 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Me: Roy is bad because even with his early use, he can't grow further because he promotes late.

You: Well that's np. Use stat boosters!

Me: Actually, Roy doesn't need any statboosters to be useful during the western isles, and the late promotion doesn't matter that early in the game.

19 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Me: He is swordlocked the entire time even after he promotes which means he'll have a hard time dealing with notorious lance units throughout. 

You: Well swords are the best weapon types in this game so that's a good thing man! Also I can't recall when I face that many lance users early on...

Me: Western Isles. Seriously, the game doesn't consist of chapter 21 and nothing else.

19 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Me: He is  completely the most boring lord ever who just appears flawless.

You: What do you expect man? He's the brainy dude so it makes sense for him to be like that. Also, look up his supports as they are good enough.

That's just, like, your opinion, man. I'm not going to regurtitate en detail why I enjoy Roy as a lord characterwise (TL;DR: I find that he's a better stand-in character than any of the "real" avatars in the series), though.

And I still find it funny that your opinion about Roy went to "Roy is shit as a character because he is a horrible leader because his stats are low" to "Roy is shit as a character because he is flawless". :D

23 minutes ago, Harvey said:

And it goes on and on and on.....

For real now, I'm done here.

Honestly, you don't have the right to complain in that regard when you bring up how Roy is the worst at everything at every possible point and repeatedly present opinions (like "Roy is boring") and falsehoods (like "Roy cannot be useful at any point") as facts. You're really not the victim here when you deside yourself to open that can of worms again and again.

[Azz]

29 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Worst lord, worst unit, what's the difference?

I know you said you were done and all but I can't ignore this. There is a massive difference between being the worst lord and being the worst unit.

I mean I consider Corrin the worst lord, but she is far from the worst units. And the same goes for Roy. Yeah, he's pretty bad, but he is far from being the worst unit.

TLDR; there is a massive difference between being the worst unit and the worst lord and to say there isn't a) is extremely over exaggerated and b) just shows your massive anti-Roy bias.

[Icelerate]

On 12/12/2017 at 3:15 PM, Skylorella Con said:

Ike, the general of the army involved in the war against Ashnard, who Elincia herself hired. Greil was one of the four riders of Daein who served Ashnard. I don't know her exact relation but Ashnard knew Elena very well as she was trusted to watch over Reyson's sister, who was the crucial part of his plan. The medallion was in the possession of his sister which was also vital for his plan.

Ashnard knew Ike's father, mother, Ike was the general of the army he was at war against and was leading the army with the very princess of the nation he had conquered. Who also had the medallion in his possession.

I don't see how Ike lacks connection to him. If that's your logic then Eliwood has no connection to Nergal either, only Ninian and Nils did....

As for Ashera, Micaiah had no real connection to her either. Only Lehran did.

Very well. 

But Eliwood isn't the only one who can damage and kill Nergal. 

Micaiah is connected to Yune, Lehran and Altina all of whom are connected to Ashera. Regardless, I'm going to withdraw this point because after thinking about it logically, I think it makes perfect sense why Ike is the only one Yune trusts to kill Ashera. He's a lot stronger than the forced deployed units from a portrayal standpoint and giving all your power to a weaker character is illogical as your best shot at winning is to empower the strongest. Micaiah is not a powerhouse so giving her power would be dumb instead of choosing the Strongest Hero.

On 12/12/2017 at 3:15 PM, Skylorella Con said:

He was known as the hero of the mad kings war, yes but it does make sense since he was the General of the army. This can also be said for all the other protagonists, Marth was the only one credited as the 'Hero king who slayed Medeus'

Alm was only credited to defeat Rudolf and Duma. Celica like Micaiha was pushed towards the side in favour of him and made some pretty stupid desicions.

Very well I'll concede this point. Not a huge fan of lords getting the full credit but it is what it is. 

But Alm and Celica rule a united Valentia together so don't they both get credit for bringing world peace? If only Alm gets the credit, this is poor writing since you can't ignore the other protagonist of the story. This would only serve to lower my opinion of Alm, however, and is not a point in favor of Ike. 

On 12/12/2017 at 3:15 PM, Skylorella Con said:

Hector, left his brother on his coronation just to help Eliwood out. 

What reason did Marth have to join Nyna's quest when he had his own kingdom to save?

Alm also had no reason to join the deliverance especially when his own grandfather refused yet he still did.

Ike, joined the laguz alliance simply because a- Ranulf was paying for his service and b- because he knew Begnion was at fault and Ranulf was his friend who aided them during the mad kings war.

Well Hector was criticized by the likes of Uther and Oswin. He is also looked down by the general populace. 

Not sure because I don't know much about Marth. 

There was a pretty big argument between him and Mycen and later on Celica. 

I don't critique Ike's decision but I'd rather see some resistance from other characters because it could be the means for further character development and conflict. Ike doesn't have to go back on his initial decision but he could stand to gain from some introspection. Do bare in mind that RD! Ike is very experienced and mature unlike most other FE lords so him not thinking reflects poorly unlike PoR! Ike, Hector, etc. 

On 12/12/2017 at 3:15 PM, Skylorella Con said:

Soren due to their history would never criticize Ike but he resisted a lot and wouldn't help them.

"Soren, ranulf helped us out during the mad kings war and he's our client. So it's our turn to return the favour and our job to do it right"

Ike induced Soren and that's the only reason he helped.

Sothe's even closer to Micaiah than Soren is to Ike but he's constantly criticizing Micaiah throughout the game. I remember in PoR, Soren was angry at Ike for wasting time feeding Daein citizens so it isn't OoC for Soren to show some initial resistance to Ike especially in regards to the Laguz. 

On 12/12/2017 at 3:15 PM, Skylorella Con said:

This is due to Radiant dawn poor writhing sometimes, I kind of wish they had base conversations as to explain their sudden appearance like Haar did but they don't.

Despite all this, I agree that Rd completely butchers every thing I loved about Ike in POR. Radiant Dawn is my favourite Fe game but logic in terms of writing isn't the best in this game. Yet the storyline is still very compelling.

TBH the only reason Heather joined was so that the Greil Mercenaries had a thief. They couldn't invent a clever excuse so they didn't even bother to write the reasoning. 

I really like RD's story despite its flaws and do think it's the best one in the series. Though recently, my opinion on Ike's role has soured. 

Tellius would have been better off as a trilogy. Parts 1 and 2 have excellent writing but feel rushed. Parts 3 and 4 could use better writing though. 

[Icelerate]

On 12/12/2017 at 5:37 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

I agree with most of the things you said and about Ike being a bit to impressive in Rd in general. But this bit doesn't seem entirely fair. 

The characters do have a conversation about how its dangerous to do this when Lehran's medallion is still around but Ranulf assures them its fine. Ranulf also ask Ike if he's really comfortable with fighting for the Laguz and Ike says he is because he thinks the Laguz are in the right. The choice is in line with Ike's character because Ike has always had pro Laguz sentiment and has always been dismissive of the Begnion nobles. 

Shinon also does complain rather vocally in a base conversation. That we don't see more of it is probably because he's a relatively minor character stuck in an enormous cast rather then to make Ike look better. Soren also lets it slips he's not entirely happy with the situation but he always follows Ike even if he disagrees with his course. 
When raiding the army camp Soren also points out to let the Senators live. I always assumed this meant the Greils weren't out to permanently burn bridges between them and Begnion. 

That is all fine and dandy but there really is no character development or conflict on Ike's part. Ike doesn't have to change who he is but at the very least his values have to be challenged to be a compelling main character. None of this happens. He's pro laguz and never has to reevaluate his ideals or reaffirm them because they are never challenged at all. This is in stark contrast to Micaiah who is forced to constantly reaffirm her commitment to Daein even if it means going against some of her morals. 

Shinon only complains to Gatrie, no one else. Soren isn't even nearly as critical as Sothe is to Micaiah. Raiding an army camp and burning supplies which are right next to homes wouldn't build bridges between Begnion and the Laguz Alliance even if the Senators live. The funny thing is Ike isn't criticized for such questionable tactics considering how civilians can get affected because supplies and horses don't only belong to military men and senators. This is in stark contrast to how Micaiah's actions are deemed immoral, aggressive and unjust even by the narrator and most plot relevant good guys even though her actions never came close to harming civilians and actually protected the civilian population of an entire country. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Icelerate

[Sentacotus]

I would have to go with Nohr Corrin the most though thats mostly because of how badly Nohr's path is written out as a whole.

Edited January 8, 2018 by LordOTaco