How Would One Rewrite Part 3 with Less/No GMs?

[Interdimensional Observer]

A criticism of RD shared by a sizable number of SFers is that Ike steals the show come Part 3. These critics have generally displayed a preference for more Micaiah and or Elincia. 

I’m in agreement with the idea of extending Part 1 by 3-4 chapters, that sounds feasible and reasonable without being filler-ish (filler without justification is bad). And I could see Part 2 extended by another 1-2 chapters, while still maintaining the scope of a small rebellion and not a total Crimean Civil War. If we wanted a Civil War, that wouldn’t be necessarily a bad thing, it’d just be a more fundamental change to its plot. Likewise, we could extend the war against the Begnion Occupation Army into more of a long haul affair, there wouldn’t be anything innately wrong with that.

However, would there be room for Parts 3 and 4 if we had a Crimean Civil War and a much longer Daein Liberation War? And even if we had room, these additions would not address the showing up of the GMs in Part 3. At best it’d just relatively reduce Ike’s portion of the story.

 

Here, I ask, much as one would ask “how would you rewrite Awakening/Fates/SoV?” and apply it to Part 3 of RD. The part where the Greil Mercenaries show up. What could be done in the absence of Ike?

 

I personally think, it’d require a lot of alterations to make an Ikeless Part 3 work. 

For one, we need a big good reason why Ike, a powerful mercenary in need of a living, wouldn’t fight alongside his PoR Laguz comrades if a war broke out between the Laguz and Begnion. We don’t see him pop up in Daein because he lives in Crimea and probably didn’t understand exactly what side to join or anything, and he and his crew aren’t so desperate that they need to go there for money. We don’t see him in Part 2 until the end because Bastian has arranged it. If Bastian hadn’t, then Ike would have been unleashed on Part 2 sooner. If we were to get a Crimean Civil War or an extended Daein Liberation War, it’d be harder to imagine Ike just twiddling his thumbs during either, particularly the former. Elincia in the case of Civil War would have more reason to seek out Ike’s help too.

In a sense, Bastian’s hiring of the GMs was the best that could be done for Part 2. But the GMs steals the attention you say with the Lucia rescue? Well, if it was just an arrow shot through the noose and Ike grabbing the falling Lucia, and that was the end of the animation, wouldn’t that be a little anticlimactic after all the tension built up beforehand? God never sends a stiff breeze to put out the fire about to immolate an innocent tied to a stake, the Lord sends a torrential downpour! And sure, some would say letting Lucia die would be better than letting her live, but that is arguable since the most important thing from that scene was the Elincia was able to put country before her loved ones, she developed as a ruler not knowing Ike was there to save the day at all.

 

Now, back to Part 3. Well let’s say for a hypothetical moment there is a good reason why Ike doesn’t show up during Part 3. What do we have? Gallia, Phoenicis, and Kilvas vs. Begnion. Great, I like Skrimir, he can be the new Part 3 MC. Now here is a problem- the Laguz lack unit variety. Would you seriously want to go through a Part 3 where everyone had transformation gauge woes, all range 1 physical, no archers, no mages, and no healers? Begnion is the clearly villainous side here, we can’t play as them. If we wanted playable Beorc, and lacked the GMs, we’d need Crimea, Daein, or Sanaki. 

Crimea could work in theory, the country is friendly towards Laguz. Though if we took the Civil War approach, why would Elincia be inclined to send troops? Her country would be hurting as is and need to recover. Plus, Begnion would have reason to invade Crimea too, and that is no small threat. The GMs belong to no country as mercenaries, them getting involved means no danger to anyone but themselves. We'd also lose out the 3-9 politics stuff, which I liked.

Sanaki could work, she’d just have to escape Begnion and the Senate and make for the Laguz Alliance camps ASAP. P3 would then be her quest to reclaim her kingdom, which sounds good. Of course, Sanaki would need a totally new Beorc crew, since everyone from PoR save Tanith, Sigrun, Tormod, and Muarim isn’t in Begnion any more. And let’s face it, Elincia would need OCs too, since outside of she herself (and would she a queen just off a rebellion/civil war be able to spend time fighting in Begnion?) the Greil Mercenaries have a monopoly on PoR’s natural healers. Heck if we had Micaiah fight more at all, she’d need some more new characters too. Not that there is anything wrong with new characters, it'd just mean more effort.

Now the third Beorc option- Daein. This is the most contrived if it were to be the only Beorc we played as. Why? Because one, Daein fights against the Laguz on behalf of the Senate. The Laguz are as I have said, are lacking in unit variety, bad from perspective of just fighting as them alone, and fighting against them alone- which is what Micaiah would be doing. 13 chapters of nothing but Laguz killing sounds tedious.

Make Daein side with the Laguz? Well that sounds nice, but Daein has a cultural hatred of Laguz Micaiah won’t be able to change overnight, siding with the LA would make her and that guy named Pelleas lose public popularity. Not to mention it completely undermines why Pelleas is king in the first place. If Daein was to win its independence, Begnion wanted a weak king in charge it could control, and Pelleas was chosen to be that by Izuka- who also tried to destroy the liberation effort with the suggestions Micaiah rejects time and again (attacking Talrega, poisoning the prison camp, ignoring the swamp executions). Even if we burned the Blood Pact, we’d need some way to keep Daein under Begnion’s control to a large degree, else we must fundamentally rewrite Part 1.

Now what of a mixed solution? Sanaki or Elincia vs. Micaiah? Sounds workable to me I’d admit. Plus it’d be interesting since it’d mean Part 3 would lack a male lead and thus RD would be accidentally kinda feminist up 3/4s of the way through. Though I would like to see Skrimir get attention as a Laguz lead alongside Sanaki or Elincia. As is Skrimir does get a character arc in Part 3, from stupid brute force and hot blood, to a more calmed and reasoned disposition. 

 

Personally, I would be fine with keeping the GMs in Part 3, and just shifting Ike from being Eliwood to Mark and let Skrimir take Eliwood’s spot, to use an FE7 metaphor of MC importance. We get playable Beorc RD doesn’t have to invent more of without a problem in sight. Or, we could have Ike send the GMs to help Elincia/Sanaki, thereby reducing the need to create new characters. Ike himself wouldn’t show up though, he could be alone off trying to find the Black Knight.

Except Ike isn’t selfish like that. After the BK kills Greil, Ike doesn’t run off to find him, he remains loyal to his contract with Elincia and instead helps her. Sure, the BK serves Daein and fighting for Elincia meant fighting Daein, but that I don’t think explains why he serves her completely- Ike is never “I’m only work for you so I can kill my pa’s murderer, got it?”. By the time of RD, Ike has a personal connection with the BK, and knows that he would invariably be interested in meeting Ike again.

 

Now let us turn to Part 4. As is, we all know Micaiah gets shoved aside here and that is wrong. This said, we can’t leave Ike out of this, even if we can feasibly do so for Part 3. And it isn’t like we can leave out Part 4 either. Stefan’s A Mordecai Support foreshadows the truth of the Branded. Yune and Astarteyune (Japan’s name for Ashunera) show up in PoR’s data. Sephiran’s Mantle and ominous final words in PoR which include mention of Ike’s future.The BK’s mysterious death, and Zelgius’s NPC data. There is just too much evidence for what P4 brings in  PoR. And do you really think they invented Dheginsea for the one scene he shows up in PoR, or didn’t plan out Soren’s parentage in advance? They’d have to scrap a lot that they had laid the groundwork for if they abolished Part 4 completely. 

We know the answer to the Part 4 issues- give Micaiah more time to talk and put more of the spotlight on her and less on Ike and Yune, simple. No radical rewriting necessary. Elincia doesn’t need more Part 4 time, she has nothing to do with Yune and Ashera, or the BK or Sephiran, Micaiah does, Ike does, Elincia, nothing save her little spat with Valtome (and would that even exist anymore if we rewrote P3?). Sanaki could use a little more P4 attention possibly, as could Kurthnaga.

[X-Naut]

Part 3 is supposed to be about two sides going to war, with Ike and the Laguz Alliance being on one side and Micaiah and Daien being on the other. Unless Crimea usurped the Greil Mercs' role in providing backup then unit variety would be a serious problem for the LA, which would probably be a joint coalition of Elincia and Skirmir.

Instead, I propose cutting some of Ike's Part 3 chapters to make room for additional Daien chapters. As it stands Micaiah only gets 3 out of 14 chapters whereas Ike gets a whopping 10 and Geoffrey gets the last to segue Crimea's involvement into the war. Several of Ike's chapters amount to filler and the plot accompanying them could be relegated to cutscenes. I can think of three chapters that could be given the Urvan: 3-2, 3-5, and 3-8 ( we don't need a lava map in every game) with 3-1 and 3-7 being runners up. Now the Dawn Brigade has 6 chapters to work with and Ike is honestly not losing much by dropping down to 7. As for what they would be about? I'll let the people with writing experience answer this one, but it certainly gives her more spotlight.

[Acacia Sgt]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Here, I ask, much as one would ask “how would you rewrite Awakening/Fates/SoV?” and apply it to Part 3 of RD. The part where the Greil Mercenaries show up. What could be done in the absence of Ike?

I personally think, it’d require a lot of alterations to make an Ikeless Part 3 work. 

For one, we need a big good reason why Ike, a powerful mercenary in need of a living, wouldn’t fight alongside his PoR Laguz comrades if a war broke out between the Laguz and Begnion. We don’t see him pop up in Daein because he lives in Crimea and probably didn’t understand exactly what side to join or anything, and he and his crew aren’t so desperate that they need to go there for money. We don’t see him in Part 2 until the end because Bastian has arranged it. If Bastian hadn’t, then Ike would have been unleashed on Part 2 sooner. If we were to get a Crimean Civil War or an extended Daein Liberation War, it’d be harder to imagine Ike just twiddling his thumbs during either, particularly the former. Elincia in the case of Civil War would have more reason to seek out Ike’s help too.

I'd agree it would take a big explanation for why the GM's aren't participating in the war. But, since they are mercenaries and all, maybe have Bastian hire them for the Izuka and Bertram job as well instead of just Volke? Or had them going to Begnion for X job before the whole mess started and were unable to leave and/or got involved in the eventual liberation of Sanaki.

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Now, back to Part 3. Well let’s say for a hypothetical moment there is a good reason why Ike doesn’t show up during Part 3. What do we have? Gallia, Phoenicis, and Kilvas vs. Begnion. Great, I like Skrimir, he can be the new Part 3 MC. Now here is a problem- the Laguz lack unit variety. Would you seriously want to go through a Part 3 where everyone had transformation gauge woes, all range 1 physical, no archers, no mages, and no healers? Begnion is the clearly villainous side here, we can’t play as them. If we wanted playable Beorc, and lacked the GMs, we’d need Crimea, Daein, or Sanaki. 

Crimea could work in theory, the country is friendly towards Laguz. Though if we took the Civil War approach, why would Elincia be inclined to send troops? Her country would be hurting as is and need to recover. Plus, Begnion would have reason to invade Crimea too, and that is no small threat. The GMs belong to no country as mercenaries, them getting involved means no danger to anyone but themselves. We'd also lose out the 3-9 politics stuff, which I liked.

As shown in 3-2, the Laguz Army got many Beorc volunteers (which included Haar, Brom, Heather, Nephenee, Ilyanna, and the Merchants). That solves the only-Laguz-units aspect, but admitedly there wouldn't be many of them. Outside of adding even more new characters, it would involve having Crimea join the war early, as you mention. Maybe if things don't actually favor the Alliance, accelerating the retreat and Begnion's pursuit intruding on Crimean soil, that gets Crimea into the war. Basically, have Zelgius beat Skrimir much sooner, and move the events of 3-8, 3-9, and 3-10 early in Part 3's storyline instead of late.

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sanaki could work, she’d just have to escape Begnion and the Senate and make for the Laguz Alliance camps ASAP. P3 would then be her quest to reclaim her kingdom, which sounds good. Of course, Sanaki would need a totally new Beorc crew, since everyone from PoR save Tanith, Sigrun, Tormod, and Muarim isn’t in Begnion any more. And let’s face it, Elincia would need OCs too, since outside of she herself (and would she a queen just off a rebellion/civil war be able to spend time fighting in Begnion?) the Greil Mercenaries have a monopoly on PoR’s natural healers. Heck if we had Micaiah fight more at all, she’d need some more new characters too. Not that there is anything wrong with new characters, it'd just mean more effort.

This could be done in concurrent with the above, solving the Beorc units issue.

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Now the third Beorc option- Daein. This is the most contrived if it were to be the only Beorc we played as. Why? Because one, Daein fights against the Laguz on behalf of the Senate. The Laguz are as I have said, are lacking in unit variety, bad from perspective of just fighting as them alone, and fighting against them alone- which is what Micaiah would be doing. 13 chapters of nothing but Laguz killing sounds tedious.

Make Daein side with the Laguz? Well that sounds nice, but Daein has a cultural hatred of Laguz Micaiah won’t be able to change overnight, siding with the LA would make her and that guy named Pelleas lose public popularity. Not to mention it completely undermines why Pelleas is king in the first place. If Daein was to win its independence, Begnion wanted a weak king in charge it could control, and Pelleas was chosen to be that by Izuka- who also tried to destroy the liberation effort with the suggestions Micaiah rejects time and again (attacking Talrega, poisoning the prison camp, ignoring the swamp executions). Even if we burned the Blood Pact, we’d need some way to keep Daein under Begnion’s control to a large degree, else we must fundamentally rewrite Part 1.

Daein does not really need to be under Begnion's control, in my opinion, and can even be in opposition to Begnion without being an actual ally of the Laguz. Ignoring the whole thing with the Blood Pact (which doesn't really factor in at all, since Daein at large was oblivious to it), I find it almost absurd that the opportunity to kill Laguz completely eclipsed the feelings Daein should have for Begnion. Did they all too quickly forgot the three years of occupation and hardships? Killing Laguz or not, why would they be so eager to do what Begnion says?

Personally, I'd do this. Remove the Blood Pact (another thing RD could do without, in my opinion; and also necessary to avoid the contriveness of it all), and instead have Begnion try to pull with Daein what they tried with Crimea in 3-9 and 3-10. If we combine it with the above of the LA suffering an early retreat, then there's even less reason for Daein to get involved, since Begnion wouldn't really need the help. And they would not be driven to a war on orders of their previous oppressors, and while they're still rebuilding the damage they did! So, it becomes a three-way war, where the LA+Crimea and Daein would have an enemy in common with Begnion, but are not allied with each other.

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So, combining most of the above, here's how I'd do Part 3... at least story wise. (Keep in mind that I won't take gameplay-wise into account, since we need to take into acount that in a realistic scenario, things are still limited by stuff like disk space and the like; but that's technical stuff to be addressed, maybe, for later.)

Shortly after Part 2, have the Mercs receive a job that takes them to Begnion. Then the stuff with Nailah and Rafiel arriving to Gallia happens and stuff. Part 3 begins. Need Beorc Units? Have the 3-2 crew join from the start, at 3-P. I'd keep Sanaki still imprisoned in Begnion, but have someone making their way over to inform that. Maybe Tanith, plus Tormod and crew, so they have Part 3 for availability instead of the long absence until Part 4.

Have thing go more or less as original Part 3. But have things don't actually go that well for the Alliance at first (this is only if cutting down chapters is needed, again for space issues and the like, if they're really needed). No Blood Pacts, so Naesala doesn't betray the alliance (another fault I think RD has is that the ravens matter jack on the whole thing; we never hear from them again, Naesala likewise only shows up after rescuing Sanaki, and we never see what the ravens thought about betraying the Alliance, which is the biggest fault if you ask me). Have Zelgius beat Skrimir and the birds' attack fail, and go with the retreat as usual. Go through the events of the lava caves and Begnion's incursion into Crimea as the original game. At this, they try to get Daein to help them. No Blood Pact, but they would think Pelleas can still be bullied into helping. Have that fail too and thing turn into hostilities. So now Begnion faces a two-front war, but aren't united against them. Because of this, LA+Crimea and Daein both actually turn the tide and push Begnion back. But then, oh noes! Race hostilities are still a thing, and now the LA and Daein also start fight each other in addition to fighting Begnion (once the two fronts meet in Begnion's northern plains). Have Kurth and Ena still get involved and now things are set for Ashera to soon awake.

As for the Mercs? Well, have them show up at the end of Part 3, and say they were the ones who rescued Sanaki and brought her to the place the equivalent events of 3-E are now happening. Let's say Sephiran hired them before his own imprisonment or something, and the job was hard and complicated which is why it took so long, but Mercs being Mercs they pulled through in the end and also escorted Sanaki safely to alternate!3-E.

So... something like that?

 

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Icelerate]

Why do people have issues with Ike's role in part 3? I really enjoyed Soren's tactics and his relationship with Skrimir. Without Ike, Soren would not be with the laguz alliance so that can't happen. I can agree that Ike's role in part 4 was over the top, but part 3 is fine. It makes no sense for the government of Crimea or Daein to support the Laguz Alliance even if there is no blood pact involved so the argument that Ike steals Elincia and Micaiah's spotlight before chapter 3-8 and chapter 3-6 respectively is moot. What I would do is add an additional Daein and Crimea chapter while removing two chapters from the GM. Nothing more, nothing less. The GM chapters I would remove are chapter 3-8 and chapter 3-10. Chapter 3-10 can be played from the perspective of the CRK instead. 

If the GM were not going to get involved in the LA war, there'd still be plenty of Beorc units. Characters like Danved (remember he's against racism) and Callil (maybe not her) could be used along with Haar, Neph, Brom, etc. as Beorc units so I don't think the lack of Beorc units would be that big of an issue especially when characters like Tormod should also show up. Maybe you can even have the holy guard eventually defect and join your side. 

Still, leaving the popular GM from last game to become sidelined until the end would be a let down for a lot of GM fans. 

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Have thing go more or less as original Part 3. But have things don't actually go that well for the Alliance at first (this is only if cutting down chapters is needed, again for space issues and the like, if they're really needed). No Blood Pacts, so Naesala doesn't betray the alliance (another fault I think RD has is that the ravens matter jack on the whole thing; we never hear from them again, Naesala likewise only shows up after rescuing Sanaki, and we never see what the ravens thought about betraying the Alliance, which is the biggest fault if you ask me). Have Zelgius beat Skrimir and the birds' attack fail, and go with the retreat as usual. Go through the events of the lava caves and Begnion's incursion into Crimea as the original game. At this, they try to get Daein to help them. No Blood Pact, but they would think Pelleas can still be bullied into helping. Have that fail too and thing turn into hostilities. So now Begnion faces a two-front war, but aren't united against them. Because of this, LA+Crimea and Daein both actually turn the tide and push Begnion back. But then, oh noes! Race hostilities are still a thing, and now the LA and Daein also start fight each other in addition to fighting Begnion (once the two fronts meet in Begnion's northern plains). Have Kurth and Ena still get involved and now things are set for Ashera to soon awake.

That seems like an interesting idea. I think Pelleas could take advantage of the war in Begnion to annex territory in northern Begnion which would actually be a lesser evil for the Begnion citizens who would otherwise face Laguz rule. However, this could put the Laguz Alliance at war with Daein so a multi-front war would be interesting. I don't understand why all FE plots have a 1 VS 1 war instead of the multi-front wars we see all too often in real life, especially in these days. 

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For one, we need a big good reason why Ike, a powerful mercenary in need of a living, wouldn’t fight alongside his PoR Laguz comrades if a war broke out between the Laguz and Begnion. We don’t see him pop up in Daein because he lives in Crimea and probably didn’t understand exactly what side to join or anything, and he and his crew aren’t so desperate that they need to go there for money. We don’t see him in Part 2 until the end because Bastian has arranged it. If Bastian hadn’t, then Ike would have been unleashed on Part 2 sooner. If we were to get a Crimean Civil War or an extended Daein Liberation War, it’d be harder to imagine Ike just twiddling his thumbs during either, particularly the former. Elincia in the case of Civil War would have more reason to seek out Ike’s help too.

1

There is a good reason for Ike not helping Daein out. The Black Knight gets involved before he does and he wouldn't want to be fighting with the Black Knight on the same side, especially when that's the country Greil ran away from and invaded his own country. Expecting Ike to help Daein liberation army is like expecting the Dawn Brigade to have fought alongside Ike in PoR. I mean the son of King Ashnard is running the uprising, do you really expect Ike to join that? 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Icelerate

[Anacybele]

I think part 3 was fine the way it was too. I really liked it. As stated, we just needed more Micaiah chapters, not fewer Ike ones.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Why do people have issues with Ike's role in part 3? I really enjoyed Soren's tactics and his relationship with Skrimir. Without Ike, Soren would not be with the laguz alliance so that can't happen. I can agree that Ike's role in part 4 was over the top, but part 3 is fine. It makes no sense for the government of Crimea or Daein to support the Laguz Alliance even if there is no blood pact involved so the argument that Ike steals Elincia and Micaiah's spotlight before chapter 3-8 and chapter 3-6 respectively is moot. What I would do is add an additional Daein and Crimea chapter while removing two chapters from the GM. Nothing more, nothing less. The GM chapters I would remove are chapter 3-8 and chapter 3-10. Chapter 3-10 can be played from the perspective of the CRK instead. 

I had forgotten that. No Soren can easily tie with my scenario of having the Alliance loose earlier.

Also, regarding the issues... well, I can only really guess. There's typical stuff like just not liking Ike, but perhaps it's more than that. Maybe they expected for Micaiah to remain as protagonist since that's how the game was marketed, no? Maybe having Ike with the Laguz Alliance and as the "Lord" of Part 3 over, say, Skrimir, in what was advertised as a Laguz vs Beorc war had vibes of "White Man's Burden", considering the current state of Beorc-Laguz relations, specially for Laguz in Begnion (but don't vouch me on that, since I doubt that's really an issue with people... at least, I hope it's not). Or perhaps just not liking how Part 3 was done in general. But well, that's another topic altoguether.

I wouldn't say steal, more like eclipse. People refer to the former so much, I think it really needs to be corrected.

3 hours ago, Icelerate said:

That seems like an interesting idea. I think Pelleas could take advantage of the war in Begnion to annex territory in northern Begnion which would actually be a lesser evil for the Begnion citizens who would otherwise face Laguz rule. However, this could put the Laguz Alliance at war with Daein so a multi-front war would be interesting. I don't understand why all FE plots have a 1 VS 1 war instead of the multi-front wars we see all too often in real life, especially in these days. 

I'm not sure annexing territory would really be in Pelleas's interests. Or Daein's. They'd be more focused on rebuilding. In my scenario, it's more of their dislike of Begnion, already high, reaching a boiling point when they try to arrogantly call for their help, and then being attacked for refusing (hey, if Valtome still decided to attack Crimea, I'm sure a similar incident can happen with the senator (Numida, I'd use, to rub salt on the wound) sent to Daein for that). It would start as "Leave us alone and just destroy each other" turning into "Hey, we can enact revenge for the last three years and the previous war... and speaking of that war, let's take potshots at Crimea and the sub-humans as well for that". And gets so bad Pelleas and Micaiah can't really put a stop to that (Pelleas not having the backbone to go "No, let's not get involved in that" to his own people (saying no to Begnion would be different), and Micaiah more or less goes as what she explains in the original 3-6).

Edited October 28, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Interdimensional Observer]

12 hours ago, Icelerate said:

However, this could put the Laguz Alliance at war with Daein so a multi-front war would be interesting. I don't understand why all FE plots have a 1 VS 1 war instead of the multi-front wars we see all too often in real life, especially in these days. 

RD would have been perfect for a multi-front war, since we already have a multi-path thing in Part 4. And technically, SoV is multiple fronts.

The problem with multiple fronts in other games is that if we were to be involved on each front, it'd involve significant unit splitting. This said, having an NPC ally do the fighting off screen on another front is something they could easily add.

 

For cutting the filler out of Ike's P3 chapters, I always have this feeling that sometimes, filler chapters are necessary to cool things down or prevent too much dialogue from happening in single chapter. This said, I do agree that 3-5 is filler and so is 3-8. 

 

16 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

As shown in 3-2, the Laguz Army got many Beorc volunteers (which included Haar, Brom, Heather, Nephenee, Ilyanna, and the Merchants)

Ike called in the merchants so he could get fresh weapons. Haar came along because he hates the Senate, Brom, Neph, and Heather, no explanation on why they came, but I'm guessing it was because they like Ike?

 

16 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

No Blood Pacts, so Naesala doesn't betray the alliance (another fault I think RD has is that the ravens matter jack on the whole thing; we never hear from them again, Naesala likewise only shows up after rescuing Sanaki, and we never see what the ravens thought about betraying the Alliance, which is the biggest fault if you ask me).

Thinking about it, I agree the Ravens and Naesala in RD are underdeveloped and were rather forgotten about. Being controlled by a Blood Pact, you'd think that the Senate would use the Ravens more, they don't use them at all. It doesn't help that while Janaff and Ulki work well enough as normal Hawk representatives, we never get a real normal Raven.

Interestingly, it is implied that Naesala learned of the loophole in the BP from Sephiran, probably sometime after his betrayal. He just exploited this. Also, to back Naesala with PoR, it appears the Senate and the Ravens have reached an understanding where all they have to do is not go against the entire grain of Begnion, not necessarily be their slaves.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ike called in the merchants so he could get fresh weapons. Haar came along because he hates the Senate, Brom, Neph, and Heather, no explanation on why they came, but I'm guessing it was because they like Ike?

Looking at the script, it seems they were all also called in by Ike. However, since he brings up that it would be fair for Crimea to aid the Laguz like how the Laguz aided Crimea in the Mad King's War, I think it's reasonable that the prompt can still happen without him. That would also include the merchants (Muston says as much he's happy to help Ranulf), or do it as Ranulf guessed (they smelled war and profit), or have it be a bit of both.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Thinking about it, I agree the Ravens and Naesala in RD are underdeveloped and were rather forgotten about. Being controlled by a Blood Pact, you'd think that the Senate would use the Ravens more, they don't use them at all. It doesn't help that while Janaff and Ulki work well enough as normal Hawk representatives, we never get a real normal Raven.

Interestingly, it is implied that Naesala learned of the loophole in the BP from Sephiran, probably sometime after his betrayal. He just exploited this. Also, to back Naesala with PoR, it appears the Senate and the Ravens have reached an understanding where all they have to do is not go against the entire grain of Begnion, not necessarily be their slaves.

Really? Haven't found that yet in the script. But it would make sense, specially since, in the game itself he being the one who brought Sanaki to where the battle was, it would've meant he was told to rescue her. And that someone being Sephiran as well sounds quite plausible.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Icelerate]

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I had forgotten that. No Soren can easily tie with my scenario of having the Alliance loose earlier.

Also, regarding the issues... well, I can only really guess. There's typical stuff like just not liking Ike, but perhaps it's more than that. Maybe they expected for Micaiah to remain as protagonist since that's how the game was marketed, no? Maybe having Ike with the Laguz Alliance and as the "Lord" of Part 3 over, say, Skrimir, in what was advertised as a Laguz vs Beorc war had vibes of "White Man's Burden", considering the current state of Beorc-Laguz relations, specially for Laguz in Begnion (but don't vouch me on that, since I doubt that's really an issue with people... at least, I hope it's not). Or perhaps just not liking how Part 3 was done in general. But well, that's another topic altoguether.

I wouldn't say steal, more like eclipse. People refer to the former so much, I think it really needs to be corrected.

 

I would have liked to see Skrimir as a playable unit in part three but other than that, the first part of part 3 is fantastic IMO. Well, Ike needs time to shine as well so I don't really mind part 3 being an arc mostly revolving around Ike. 

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I'm not sure annexing territory would really be in Pelleas's interests. Or Daein's. They'd be more focused on rebuilding. In my scenario, it's more of their dislike of Begnion, already high, reaching a boiling point when they try to arrogantly call for their help, and then being attacked for refusing (hey, if Valtome still decided to attack Crimea, I'm sure a similar incident can happen with the senator (Numida, I'd use, to rub salt on the wound) sent to Daein for that). It would start as "Leave us alone and just destroy each other" turning into "Hey, we can enact revenge for the last three years and the previous war... and speaking of that war, let's take potshots at Crimea and the sub-humans as well for that". And gets so bad Pelleas and Micaiah can't really put a stop to that (Pelleas not having the backbone to go "No, let's not get involved in that" to his own people (saying no to Begnion would be different), and Micaiah more or less goes as what she explains in the original 3-6).

Instead of Izuka being in cahoots with the Senate, which didn't really make much sense because he was supporting Ashnard in PoR who wasn't allied with them, I'd have him stay and give Pelleas bad advice. You're making Begnion look incompetent by making them provoke both Crimea and Daein. I'm pretty sure Numida is smarter than Valtome and wouldn't make the same mistake. Also by removing the blood pact, the Senate no longer seems to be the conniving villains so I hope there is a way to make them manipulative just like how they manipulated Ike, Elincia and Sanaki to invade Daein and hand over the country to the Senate. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Icelerate

[Acacia Sgt]

29 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Instead of Izuka being in cahoots with the Senate, which didn't really make much sense because he was supporting Ashnard in PoR who wasn't allied with them, I'd have him stay and give Izuka bad advice. You're making Begnion look incompetent by making them provoke both Crimea and Daein. I'm pretty sure Numida is smarter than Valtome and wouldn't make the same mistake. Also by removing the blood pact, the Senate no longer seems to be the conniving villains so I hope there is a way to make them manipulative just like how they manipulated Ike, Elincia and Sanaki to invade Daein and hand over the country to the Senate. 

Not really incopetence. Numida may or not may be smarter than Valtome, but he's human nonetheless. Remember, he was the one who oversaw Daein's occupation. After Part 1, he'd no doubt be angry at them for his disgrace. Even Lekain washed his hands and told him "you're on your own over this". Basically, I'd use Numida and this happening since the sourness would be a two-way street. Numida would be angry at Daein, blaming them for what happened to him. So I could see the situation really going that way. Besides, for all the Senate was, by Part 3 Begnion was already in a civil war, with the coup against the Senators. That's why Begnion was no longer the focus when the Alliance fought Daein, since they now had troubles on their own yard. They're not infallible. Outside of Sephiran and Lekain, I can't really say the Senate as a whole was really that competent. The thing is, with Lekain as ringleader, he takes care of (most) problems that could arise.

No Blood Pact is no big loss, in my opinion. Their manipulativeness and scheming is still there with them engineering the assassination of the Apostle and the Serenes Massacre, suppressing Sanaki and letting the war happen in the first place, etc. If anything, something like the Blood Pact lessens that, since it means they no longer need to go to great lengths to plan things. They would just pull the Blood Pact card and call it a day.

Also, in a narrative sense, specially for an interactive medium like a video game, incomptence is something that is almost required for the villains to have. Or commit enough flaws. Otherwise, the hero wouldn't win. Besides, in RD itself, that's what happens. A literal Deus Ex Machina (Ashera petrifying almost everybody) is pretty much the only thing that saved Daein and Kilvas, since the pacts couldn't really work anymore, thus giving them a chance to break free (and even then, Kilvas does not, as the Extended Script shows).

Edited October 28, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Icelerate]

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not really incopetence. Numida may or not may be smarter than Valtome, but he's human nonetheless. Remember, he was the one who oversaw Daein's occupation. After Part 1, he'd no doubt be angry at them for his disgrace. Even Lekain washed his hands and told him "you're on your own over this". Basically, I'd use Numida and this happening since the sourness would be a two-way street. Numida would be angry at Daein, blaming them for what happened to him. So I could see the situation really going that way. Besides, for all the Senate was, by Part 3 Begnion was already in a civil war, with the coup against the Senators. That's why Begnion was no longer the focus when the Alliance fought Daein, since they now had troubles on their own yard. They're not infallible. Outside of Sephiran and Lekain, I can't really say the Senate as a whole was really that competent.

No Blood Pact is no big loss, in my opinion. Their manipulativeness and scheming is still there with them engineering the assassination of the Apostle and the Serenes Massacre, suppressing Sanaki and letting the war happen in the first place, etc. If anything, something like the Blood Pact lessens that, since it means they no longer need to go to great lengths to plan things. They would just pull the Blood Pact card and call it a day.

3

The problem with him triggering Daein would be that you're using the same mechanism to get Crimea to intervene. It becomes quite repetitive, although you can argue the blood pact was no better because it got Kilvas and Daein to fight on Begnion's behalf. Then the other problem is that the Senate's army is not strong enough to take on all of Galia, Kilvas, Phoenicis, Daein, Crimea and the Apostle's Army. It becomes too similar to PoR where it is Daein against everyone else but this time it is the Begnion Senate VS everyone else. 

That scheming happened 20 years in the past. I'd want something in part three to show Lekain's manipulative nature. Maybe they can provoke Daein into attacking LA or vice-versa through some spies on both sides or something. After all, Lekain did say he has spies everyone in Daein. Not to mention, they can have the Senate prop up Duke Ludveck in part 2 because it seems unrealistic he's able to get the resources to rebel through internal mechanisms. Then maybe in part 3, Ludveck can get rescued by a rewarp staff and can be another antagonist that provokes Crimea to get involved because Begnion will be exposed for sedition.  

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

The problem with him triggering Daein would be that you're using the same mechanism to get Crimea to intervene. It becomes quite repetitive, although you can argue the blood pact was no better because it got Kilvas and Daein to fight on Begnion's behalf. Then the other problem is that the Senate's army is not strong enough to take on all of Galia, Kilvas, Phoenicis, Daein, Crimea and the Apostle's Army. It becomes too similar to PoR where it is Daein against everyone else but this time it is the Begnion Senate VS everyone else. 

That scheming happened 20 years in the past. I'd want something in part three to show Lekain's manipulative nature. Maybe they can provoke Daein into attacking LA or vice-versa through some spies on both sides or something. After all, Lekain did say he has spies everyone in Daein. Not to mention, they can have the Senate prop up Duke Ludveck in part 2 because it seems unrealistic he's able to get the resources to rebel through internal mechanisms. Then maybe in part 3, Ludveck can get rescued by a rewarp staff and can be another antagonist that provokes Crimea to get involved because Begnion will be exposed for sedition.  

That's why I used the three-way war thing. Give it its unique spin rather than copy-pasting PoR's situation. Besides, RD itself did no better. Only difference was that the Senate still could use Daein. By 3-10, it had already become like PoR, except switching Daein for the Senate.

20 years ago... 3 years ago... considering it's likely the Senate didn't underwent that many changes in personnel, it would work fine. Besides, it's exactly mostly that what Part 3 uses to show their manipulative nature. Getting them involved with Ludveck sounds like a good idea. It's not really unrealistic, Ludveck simply rallied those that were uncontent with Elincia's rule. Three years ain't that big of a time skip for Crimea's problems to go away, after all.

[Icelerate]

14 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

RD would have been perfect for a multi-front war, since we already have a multi-path thing in Part 4. And technically, SoV is multiple fronts.

The problem with multiple fronts in other games is that if we were to be involved on each front, it'd involve significant unit splitting. This said, having an NPC ally do the fighting off screen on another front is something they could easily add.

 

For cutting the filler out of Ike's P3 chapters, I always have this feeling that sometimes, filler chapters are necessary to cool things down or prevent too much dialogue from happening in single chapter. This said, I do agree that 3-5 is filler and so is 3-8. 

 

Ike called in the merchants so he could get fresh weapons. Haar came along because he hates the Senate, Brom, Neph, and Heather, no explanation on why they came, but I'm guessing it was because they like Ike?

4

By multifront, I don't mean route splitting. Alm and Celica are not fighting against each other (not that they should) and in part 4, you're allied with the other two groups so it's not a multi-front war. Part 3 would have been perfect in that regard, if not for the blood pact. I want to see a map where you have three sides fighting against each other. I always wondered why bandits don't attack enemy soldiers and vice-versa. It's not like an evil empire such as the Nazis would tolerate bandits roaming around so why do FE evil empires permit banditry? 

I like chapter 3-5 mapwise and even storywise as it is showing that now Ike's group is on the defensive and can no longer advance. It also shows that the senators are corrupt and don't honour ceasefires. 

Makes sense that Haar, Brom and Neph would support Ike. Haar, as you said, hates the Senate. Brom and Neph are grateful that Ike liberated Crimea and helped thwart the uprising against Elincia at the very end. Speaking of Haar, why do you think he doesn't help Jill in part one? His excuse is that Jill is strong enough to fend for herself but that same reasoning can be used for Ike. I think Haar resents Daein just as much as Begnion so he's not convinced liberating Daein is a good idea because he probably views both sides as bad. 

Heather has no reason to be helping Ike. The only reason she helps out in 2-1 is due to Neph. She helps out in 2-2 because of Lucia. She helps out in 2-E because of Elincia. You could argue she's in Ike's crew to flirt with Illyana and Neph but I think it's a missed opportunity that Micaiah can't recruit her in 3-7 or 3-E. Would make for a funny recruitment conversation and Daein could make use of another beast dagger wielder. 

[Ace Pelleas]

On 27/10/2017 at 10:57 PM, Icelerate said:

That seems like an interesting idea. I think Pelleas could take advantage of the war in Begnion to annex territory in northern Begnion which would actually be a lesser evil for the Begnion citizens who would otherwise face Laguz rule. However, this could put the Laguz Alliance at war with Daein so a multi-front war would be interesting. I don't understand why all FE plots have a 1 VS 1 war instead of the multi-front wars we see all too often in real life, especially in these days.

That's actually a really cool concept. Daein could've lost a bit of its territory to Begnion during the 3 years time spam, so a mini-scaled war against Begnion could be interesting. There could be some kind of misunderstanding with the Laguz alliance during Daein's project,so basically each side(Except Crimea) would be facing 2 different enemies, making this concept pretty danm cool,opposed to the traditional 1Vs1 War . The only thing thatI can't seem fitting with this concept is Pelleas' blood pact. Which I thought was well done(The same can't be said to all the other pacts).

 

 

Now, a different proposal

If we consider the blood pact it could've been that a new condition was made and if it was broken the disaster wouldn't be AP, but rather a GP and make Daein really lost its coolness and start diving deeply with a war against Begnion, and occasional clashes with the Laguz Alliance could've lead to think that Daein was fighting alongside Begnion's command.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Ace Pelleas

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

I think the biggest thing is that I love the GM chapters and don't really want to get rid of them but the DB need more time to develop and be explored. It also does Micaiah no favors that she's essentially villainized as soon as she's put in conflict with Ike. It would be interesting if the game was 5 parts instead of 4 so that Ike and his mercenaries could fight with the laguz alliance but then when they come into conflict with Daein (new part 4 basically) it could go back to Micaiah and the DB for more focus (and levels) for them.

[Icelerate]

On 10/28/2017 at 2:46 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

That's why I used the three-way war thing. Give it its unique spin rather than copy-pasting PoR's situation. Besides, RD itself did no better. Only difference was that the Senate still could use Daein. By 3-10, it had already become like PoR, except switching Daein for the Senate.

20 years ago... 3 years ago... considering it's likely the Senate didn't underwent that many changes in personnel, it would work fine. Besides, it's exactly mostly that what Part 3 uses to show their manipulative nature. Getting them involved with Ludveck sounds like a good idea. It's not really unrealistic, Ludveck simply rallied those that were uncontent with Elincia's rule. Three years ain't that big of a time skip for Crimea's problems to go away, after all.

I meant I want to see Lekain's manipulative nature in part three especially when the Senate was conniving 20 years ago so they should still retain that trait and show it throughout the game sans part 4 where they have no choice but to be pawns of Ashera. 

22 hours ago, Ace Pelleas said:

That's actually a really cool concept. Daein could've lost a bit of its territory to Begnion during the 3 years time spam, so a mini-scaled war against Begnion could be interesting. There could be some kind of misunderstanding with the Laguz alliance during Daein's project,so basically each side(Except Crimea) would be facing 2 different enemies, making this concept pretty danm cool,opposed to the traditional 1Vs1 War . The only thing thatI can't seem fitting with this concept is Pelleas' blood pact. Which I thought was well done(The same can't be said to all the other pacts).

 

 

Now, a different proposal

If we consider the blood pact it could've been that a new condition was made and if it was broken the disaster wouldn't be AG, but rather a GP and make Daein really lost its coolness and start diving deeply with a war against Begnion, and occasional clashes with the Laguz Alliance could've lead to think that Daein was fighting alongside Begnion's command.

Yeah, I remember Ashnard actually seized parts of Begnion so maybe Begnion took it back even after the peace treaty. We were discussing in the context without Pelleas' blood pact but if RD is remade, they'd have to keep the blood pacts in and I'm not entirely opposed to blood pacts like many are. I just don't like how the blood pact is shown to be a small piece of paper that Pelleas should have been able to read. If they made it a long scroll, Pelleas could have read the first half while Izuka could promise to read the second half which would make more sense for Pelleas not to have read the entire scroll and instead rely on Izuka. 

What do you mean "AG but rather a GP"? 

[Acacia Sgt]

7 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I meant I want to see Lekain's manipulative nature in part three especially when the Senate was conniving 20 years ago so they should still retain that trait and show it throughout the game sans part 4 where they have no choice but to be pawns of Ashera. 

Well, I'd think Sephiran covers that well enough.

But seriously, I'm not sure if it can mean much to really show. After all, the Senate itself was being played by Sephiran like a fiddle. Their resorting to Blood Pacts also show that, they might not be that good to begin with. And even then, they can only really be credited with forcing Daein into the war. Kilvas was already pre-bound to Begnion, the Senate didn't had a hand on that on their own. They simply used it once they ensured Sanaki wouldn't subvert that. Which eventually ended up happening anyway.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Ace Pelleas]

On 30/10/2017 at 3:16 PM, Icelerate said:

I meant I want to see Lekain's manipulative nature in part three especially when the Senate was conniving 20 years ago so they should still retain that trait and show it throughout the game sans part 4 where they have no choice but to be pawns of Ashera. 

Yeah, I remember Ashnard actually seized parts of Begnion so maybe Begnion took it back even after the peace treaty. We were discussing in the context without Pelleas' blood pact but if RD is remade, they'd have to keep the blood pacts in and I'm not entirely opposed to blood pacts like many are. I just don't like how the blood pact is shown to be a small piece of paper that Pelleas should have been able to read. If they made it a long scroll, Pelleas could have read the first half while Izuka could promise to read the second half which would make more sense for Pelleas not to have read the entire scroll and instead rely on Izuka. 

What do you mean "AG but rather a GP"? 

My bad, I had written AG instead of AP. What I meant was Arithmetic Progression and Geometric Progression.

And Yeah, it was a minor mistake, but nothing that a small overlook wouldn't let it pass.