Koei is apparently very happy with the sales

[Thane]

8 minutes ago, Slumber said:

But I do remember one where they basically said "Yeah, we'll do a more obscure roster if we get a sequel!""

If memory serves, they were the ones who were talked into including Lyn, Celica and Lucina, and that they would've otherwise preferred keeping it strictly to three titles. If that is indeed the case, then I believe them to have been misguided from the start. They made a good game, but it could've been more of a celebration of a series, and I don't want them to have make a sequel for that.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Thane

[TheRadiantKnight]

19 minutes ago, Thane said:

If memory serves, they were the ones who were talked into including Lyn, Celica and Lucina, and that they would've otherwise preferred keeping it strictly to three titles. If that is indeed the case, then I believe them to have been misguided from the start. They made a good game, but it could've been more of a celebration of a series, and I don't want them to have make a sequel for that.

Exactly all boils down to them choosing 3 games to represent a 12 games heavy franchise in a so easy to make crossover compared to for example a new fighting game with new controls, more balancing and so on. They only had made a good to decent warriors game with fire emblem characters from preferably all 12 games and they made so many warriors games that being a good warriors game should have been a given, but on a the crossover front they failed. At best they were to lazy, at worst they don`t care for the fans of certain titles or were greedy for that sequel money. Now we probably have to wait for Fire emblem warriors 4 maybe 3 with dlc for them to acknowledge the existence of all fire emblem games in form of character representation.

[guedesbrawl]

46 minutes ago, Thane said:

If memory serves, they were the ones who were talked into including Lyn, Celica and Lucina, and that they would've otherwise preferred keeping it strictly to three titles. If that is indeed the case, then I believe them to have been misguided from the start. They made a good game, but it could've been more of a celebration of a series, and I don't want them to have make a sequel for that.

Sorry, but like always I'm forced to point out this mentality is stupid.

You know why they had a focus on 3 games? Money. Time. Both are finite resources and the project you want is not something they could pull off with the same resources they had available here.

Never mind how a full-series as a starting warrior is just... too limiting. You know how people say SD got shafted and that 3 reps wasn't enough? That's the most any given game in the series would get with such a crossover.

There's a lot of things the roster needs to cover. Main characters, Important characters, Recognizable/Iconic characters (think Lyn, Frederick or the little sisters, who have big earlygame presence despite low importance and mid/lategame relevance), Popular characters, in particular popular nobodies (Owain, Tharja, Niles...), villain characters, unique characters... and literally the same concepts but with the word "class" instead.

And a full series roster would blow itself up just with lords alone. There's only FOUR lords in the series that don't mainly use Swords: Robin, Hector, Micaiah and Ephraim... and they are all the secondary lords of their games (if not tertiary in Hector's case). The other FOURTEEN lords all use swords.

We only had about SIXTEEN movesets to work a roster with.  15 we got in the base game, and I have no doubt that if IS/Ninty hadn't forced Anna/Lyn/Celica, Oboro and her unique moveset would have been in the base game, which is why I think we missed out on the better game because of IS/Ninty's agenda. If they had waited for the DLC, at least... we wouldn't have had four half-baked NPCs in the base game, only a single lance moveset, and both Celica and Lyn could've been better written and had unique movesets down the line, be it DLC or in a sequel.

 

 

 

[guedesbrawl]

22 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Exactly all boils down to them choosing 3 games to represent a 12 games heavy franchise in a so easy to make crossover compared to for example a new fighting game with new controls, more balancing and so on. They only had made a good to decent warriors game with fire emblem characters from preferably all 12 games and they made so many warriors games that being a good warriors game should have been a given, but on a the crossover front they failed. At best they were to lazy, at worst they don`t care for the fans of certain titles or were greedy for that sequel money. Now we probably have to wait for Fire emblem warriors 4 maybe 3 with dlc for them to acknowledge the existence of all fire emblem games in form of character representation.

I'm sorry for the double post, but I replied to someone else above you and you should read that. I'm not sure that editing a quote would net the notification too.

[wissenschaft]

I think its a bit much to expect them to represent all 12 games in one go. I prefer 3 games at a time. Next time we can get characters from 3 other FE games like the GBA series.

[Thane]

1 minute ago, guedesbrawl said:

Sorry, but like always I'm forced to point out this mentality is stupid.

It's stupid to want them to spread the love around as opposed to focusing on three specific titles, especially when they didn't do anything worthwhile with the plot?

2 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Never mind how a full-series as a starting warrior is just... too limiting. You know how people say SD got shafted and that 3 reps wasn't enough? That's the most any given game in the series would get with such a crossover.

I never said anything about wanting more movesets or characters than we got in the product we ended up with; I wanted it to be more evenly distributed. I'm not sure what you're reading into my posts.

[guedesbrawl]

3 minutes ago, Thane said:

It's stupid to want them to spread the love around as opposed to focusing on three specific titles, especially when they didn't do anything worthwhile with the plot?

I never said anything about wanting more movesets or characters than we got in the product we ended up with; I wanted it to be more evenly distributed. I'm not sure what you're reading into my posts.

Sorry, it is stupid. It's even worse if you wanted it evenly distributed.

Like I said, you'd blow the roster out with the lords alone, or end with a fail roster that misses out obvious main character or has to do things like Magvel being just Ephrain because Eirika isn't unique, or having Lyn and Hector without Eliwood.

Again, we only had 16 movesets to work with. there isn't enough to do a quality full-series crossover.

Try to think a little on how such a roster would need to be built: it simply doesn't work. It's easy to say KT should've done this or that, but think about game design even a little and you see this is just unreasonable.

Edited October 31, 2017 by guedesbrawl

[Thane]

Just now, guedesbrawl said:

It's even worse if you wanted it evenly distributed.

I never said that either, I said "more evenly distributed", not "perfectly balanced". I'm very well aware of the amount of movesets and other challenges that may pop up during development, so your condescending tone is not needed.

[guedesbrawl]

2 minutes ago, Thane said:

I never said that either, I said "more evenly distributed", not "perfectly balanced". I'm very well aware of the amount of movesets and other challenges that may pop up during development, so your condescending tone is not needed.

The you should know that what you want is completely unrealistic. So stop whining about that.

[Thane]

Just now, guedesbrawl said:

The you should know that what you want is completely unrealistic. So stop whining about that.

Coming from someone who didn't even understand what I wanted, had to put words in my mouth in order to make their argument work, and act condescendingly on top of it all, you'll have to forgive me if I don't really feel like complying with your request. I'll also block you so I'll not have to deal with you in the future.

[Folt]

I think hoping that the first FE Warriors would be a celebration for the whole series is honestly a pretty tall order myself.

(So I expected and kinda hoped that it would be restricted to only certain games.)

[TheRadiantKnight]

7 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Sorry, but like always I'm forced to point out this mentality is stupid.

You know why they had a focus on 3 games? Money. Time. Both are finite resources and the project you want is not something they could pull off with the same resources they had available here.

Never mind how a full-series as a starting warrior is just... too limiting. You know how people say SD got shafted and that 3 reps wasn't enough? That's the most any given game in the series would get with such a crossover.

There's a lot of things the roster needs to cover. Main characters, Important characters, Recognizable/Iconic characters (think Lyn, Frederick or the little sisters, who have big earlygame presence despite low importance and mid/lategame relevance), Popular characters, in particular popular nobodies (Owain, Tharja, Niles...), villain characters, unique characters... and literally the same concepts but with the word "class" instead.

And a full series roster would blow itself up just with lords alone. There's only FOUR lords in the series that don't mainly use Swords: Robin, Hector, Micaiah and Ephraim... and they are all the secondary lords of their games (if not tertiary in Hector's case). The other FOURTEEN lords all use swords.

We only had about SIXTEEN movesets to work a roster with.  15 we got in the base game, and I have no doubt that if IS/Ninty hadn't forced Anna/Lyn/Celica, Oboro and her unique moveset would have been in the base game, which is why I think we missed out on the better game because of IS/Ninty's agenda. If they had waited for the DLC, at least... we wouldn't have had four half-baked NPCs in the base game, only a single lance moveset, and both Celica and Lyn could've been better written and had unique movesets down the line, be it DLC or in a sequel.

 

 

 

Yes money and time are finite, but we are not talking about indie development here. We are talking about big companies and fire emblem a series on a huge upswing in the last years and especially now with heroes.

Surely expecting 30 characters wasn`t out of the question as some expected 40 and if the npcs and villains were playable we would be above 30. So pushing back the release date 3 weeks to 1 month for them to finish those could be possible with the added benefit of pushing it away from mario odyssey.

So lets work with 30 characters so two for every entry and 6 left. 2 extra for fates and awakening for being the newest, 1 extra for shadow dragon because marths game and 1 for blazing sword for western audience intruduction.

This is workable.

One alternative would be taking the sequels out for dlc with an added story for those 3 games. 30 slots 2 for every game of the 9 giving us 12 slots to do stuff. With this you could even go back to 25 characters.

Also while there's only four no sword lords there's also only six only sword users (marth,sigurd,seliph,leif,roy,eirika) if memory serves.

 

[Thane]

4 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Also while there's only four no sword lords there's also only six only sword users (marth,sigurd,seliph,leif,roy,eirika) if memory serves.

Marth
Alm
Sigurd
Seliph
Leif
Eliwood
Lyn
Eirika
Ike
Chrom
Lucina

Corrin and Celica use swords as well but the former incorporates shapeshifting while the latter would probably use more magic in her moveset had she been planned to be included in the game from the start.

Of course, if you had the liberty to rearrange the roster working with only with the 15-16 movesets in the game, you could make certain characters share movesets. Sigurd and Eliwood come to mind, like how we already have Celica being a copy of Marth.

[Rezzy]

2 minutes ago, Thane said:

Marth
Alm
Sigurd
Seliph
Leif
Eliwood
Lyn
Eirika
Ike
Chrom
Lucina

Corrin and Celica use swords as well but the former incorporates shapeshifting while the latter would probably use more magic in her moveset had she been planned to be included in the game from the start.

Of course, if you had the liberty to rearrange the roster working with only with the 15-16 movesets in the game, you could make certain characters share movesets. Sigurd and Eliwood come to mind, like how we already have Celica being a copy of Marth.

Alm and Lyn can use a bow, Ike can use an axe, and Eliwood, Chrom, and Lucina can uses lances upon promotion, unless I misunderstand what you're saying.

 

Leaving Ike out, the most popular character, according to the CYL poll, makes no sense to me.  I still haven't gotten the game, and don't know if I will.  I certainly like all FE games, but Elibe and Tellius are my favorite worlds, and they got shafted in representation.

[TheRadiantKnight]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

Marth
Alm
Sigurd
Seliph
Leif
Eliwood
Lyn
Eirika
Ike
Chrom
Lucina

Corrin and Celica use swords as well but the former incorporates shapeshifting while the latter would probably use more magic in her moveset had she been planned to be included in the game from the start.

Of course, if you had the liberty to rearrange the roster working with only with the 15-16 movesets in the game, you could make certain characters share movesets. Sigurd and Eliwood come to mind, like how we already have Celica being a copy of Marth.

Alm and Lyn can also use bows, Eliwood,Chrom and Lucina can use lances and Ike axes. Not that it is easy to implement but it is there. I'd like to see ike slamming urvan in the ground  lifting the enemies up step on urvan jump and use ragnell for an aether.

Also many lords can be done as clones to semi clones with some variation as you said.

[Thane]

9 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Alm and Lyn can use a bow, Ike can use an axe, and Eliwood, Chrom, and Lucina can uses lances upon promotion, unless I misunderstand what you're saying.

I just brought up the chaps who primarily use swords. Celica starts with both, and while Corrin starts with wielding only a sword as well, I just thought the dragon aspect is more ingrained in their skillset than a promotion weapon. Of course, they don't talk about it in Fates, but shhhh

7 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Alm and Lyn can also use bows, Eliwood,Chrom and Lucina can use lances and Ike axes. Not that it is easy to implement but it is there. I'd like to see ike slamming urvan in the ground  lifting the enemies up step on urvan jump and use ragnell for an aether.

Also many lords can be done as clones to semi clones with some variation as you said.

Sorry, buddy, my bad! I missed that "only" part.  

I would personally prefer to fight with the lords' iconic weapons though, I must say. Then again, that wouldn't be very good for the weapon variation, although it's not like it's in perfect shape in the product we got either. It'd be preferable if you could bring in all protagonists (let's say Celica shares a moveset with Marth, Sigurd with Eliwood, Chrom with Lucina, and maybe Alm with Ike) and then fill out the missing niches with other important characters. That way you could keep the number of movesets down while representing the series better.

Also, I'm sure a lot of time and effort could've gone into improving the overall gameplay if you cut the main story, or simplified and shortened it somehow. Removing the lemon twins would, in theory, free up another moveset.

I should point out that I've had a lot of fun with this game and I'm not trying to bash it; I just wish it managed to be more of a celebration of the series than it currently is.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Thane

[TheRadiantKnight]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

I just brought up the chaps who primarily use swords. Celica starts with both, and while Corrin starts with wielding only a sword as well, I just thought the dragon aspect is more ingrained in their skillset than a promotion weapon. Of course, they don't talk about it in Fates, but shhhh

Sorry, buddy, my bad! I missed that "only" part.  

I would personally prefer to fight with the lords' iconic weapons though, I must say. Then again, that wouldn't be very good for the weapon variation, although it's not like it's in perfect shape in the product we got either. It'd be preferable if you could bring in all protagonists (let's say Celica shares a moveset with Marth, Sigurd with Eliwood, Chrom with Lucina, and maybe Alm with Ike) and then fill out the missing niches with other important characters. That way you could keep the number of movesets down while representing the series better.

Also, I'm sure a lot of time and effort could've gone into improving the overall gameplay if you cut the main story, or simplified and shortened it somehow. Removing the lemon twins would, in theory, free up another moveset.

No problem.

Yes i can understand the iconic part.

I would compromise like i said with 9+3dlc instead of 12 with 25 slots one could do

 

Marth, Shiida, Minerva

Alm, Celica

Sigurd,Lewyn

Roy,Lilina

Lyn,Hector,Eliwood

Eirika,Ephraim

Ike,Soren,Titania

Robin,Chrom,Lissa,Frederick

Corrin,Camilla,Takumi,Azura

 

Balance of importance, popularity and weapons(kinda)

9 swords, 3 lances, 6 axes, 1 bow, 3 magic, celica,robin,corrin unique

maybe remove minerva for jeorge for one more bow

[Rezzy]

38 minutes ago, Thane said:

 Of course, they don't talk about it in Fates, but shhhh

 

What, Corrin is a manakete?  Surely, they would have brought it up at some point in Fates.

[guedesbrawl]

3 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Yes money and time are finite, but we are not talking about indie development here. We are talking about big companies and fire emblem a series on a huge upswing in the last years and especially now with heroes.

Surely expecting 30 characters wasn`t out of the question as some expected 40 and if the npcs and villains were playable we would be above 30. So pushing back the release date 3 weeks to 1 month for them to finish those could be possible with the added benefit of pushing it away from mario odyssey.

So lets work with 30 characters so two for every entry and 6 left. 2 extra for fates and awakening for being the newest, 1 extra for shadow dragon because marths game and 1 for blazing sword for western audience intruduction.

This is workable.

One alternative would be taking the sequels out for dlc with an added story for those 3 games. 30 slots 2 for every game of the 9 giving us 12 slots to do stuff. With this you could even go back to 25 characters.

Also while there's only four no sword lords there's also only six only sword users (marth,sigurd,seliph,leif,roy,eirika) if memory serves.

 

Dude. Zelda is much bigger than FE, and this is what Hyrule Warriors had:

*14 finished characters with 3 almost-finished NPCs (I'm considering the Great Fairy moveset as its own thing, because... it is, effectively)

*4 of these characters had extra weapons, totaling into 6 (I'm not sure if the Horse and Spinner movesets were in the base game).

So 23 movesets, with 9 of them not having 100% new resources either by incompleteness or by re-using a model.

...

Now, let's go back to FE. I'll try to make a roster close to what we got in number of movesets+clones. 30 characters or whatever is just insane for a starting musou of a semi-niche/barely-mainstream series.

Before all, there are 14 sword lords: Marth, Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Lyn, Eirika, Ike, Chrom, Lucina, Corrin.

Now, consider that between the comparatively huge amount of voiced dialogue the game has and the fact that every single character comes with 2 models because of promotion, characters are more expensive to make. And we already know FE is smaller than Zelda.

The math is obvious. 

 

[TheRadiantKnight]

24 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Dude. Zelda is much bigger than FE, and this is what Hyrule Warriors had:

*14 finished characters with 3 almost-finished NPCs (I'm considering the Great Fairy moveset as its own thing, because... it is, effectively)

*4 of these characters had extra weapons, totaling into 6 (I'm not sure if the Horse and Spinner movesets were in the base game).

So 23 movesets, with 9 of them not having 100% new resources either by incompleteness or by re-using a model.

...

Now, let's go back to FE. I'll try to make a roster close to what we got in number of movesets+clones. 30 characters or whatever is just insane for a starting musou of a semi-niche/barely-mainstream series.

Before all, there are 14 sword lords: Marth, Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Lyn, Eirika, Ike, Chrom, Lucina, Corrin.

Now, consider that between the comparatively huge amount of voiced dialogue the game has and the fact that every single character comes with 2 models because of promotion, characters are more expensive to make. And we already know FE is smaller than Zelda.

The math is obvious. 

 

What has Zelda to do with anything? 30 is not much more than 25 and i even gave an option with 25 characters in the post you replied to which is the same as we got. And i made a post for a possible roster in this thread with 25 entries from 9 of the 12 games and it really isn't as bad as you make it out to be. It is rather balanced. there are of course other options and i don't say it's the best but at least all continents are represented and weapons are about as balanced as in the game. I even got lance infantry in the base game with this.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Great news. I absolutely love almost everything about this game. With a little more polish (ie: remove or heavily reduce voiced character responses from the convoy and forge) and a better roster with more game representation and better weapon variety, any sequel could be truly spectacular.

[Thane]

Just now, Etheus said:

Great news. I absolutely love almost everything about this game. With a little more polish (ie: remove or heavily reduce voiced character responses from the convoy and forge) and a better roster with more game representation and better weapon variety, any sequel could be truly spectacular.

I'd love some menus that are easier to navigate. Unless I've missed something, grinding supports in this game is made harder because you need to manually check your support level before each battle, which you can't do during map deployment - I think.

[HK Motendra]

As a general statement, there's more to Fire Emblem than just a collection of lords, y'all. And in the context of what we have, it wouldnt be fun if 77% of the cast, even with their own move set, have the same basic function. The nuance from FE's strategy elements via the class system and weapon triangle are what sets it apart from other warriors titles. To throw all that away in favor of fan service would make for a sub par Warriors game. Not to say that there isn't fan service in the current game, but what y'all are proposing wouldn't make the game any better, other than wish fulfillment.

No first entry Warriors game was ever perfect, as there was always room for growth (HW is a technicality, depending on how you look at it, however) that seems to always be overlooked when looking at the Warriors series today, and even FE as a whole whenever a new thing for it comes out. FE Cipher started with just Archanea and Ylisse and is soon to have every world in FE. FE Heroes, being a mobile game, had liberties to start with more, but still had to wait to include all that it has, which started with Sacred Stones (marginally, but still, le *gasp*) and now has gone so far as to properly include Geneaology.  TMS unfortunately couldn't supplant itself to warrant such growth (granted, its premise wasn't exactly the most desirable), but that all the more adds to the point. Why is it so hard to allow FE Warriors to do the same? If you're just not into the kind of game, sure, but having different flavors available (the representation) doesn't change the fact that you don't like the drink (the game).

All that being said, the only thing I could really hope for is more unit classes and improvements wherever they are needed, such as balance between classes and weapon types. That your only lance units are weak to bows isn't good no matter how you look at it. Here's hoping for FEW2 to do better in this regard.

[Thane]

9 minutes ago, Motendra said:

Not to say that there isn't fan service in the current game, but what y'all are proposing wouldn't make the game any better, other than wish fulfillment.

The mechanics would remain the same, but the representation better, and it'd be great seeing older characters in glorious 3D. Hell, one of the best things in Heroes is seeing old blokes with new art and voice acting.

Also, if I were making suggestions purely out of wish-fulfillment, I'd cram in a few Laguz royals in there for sure! 

Quote

Why is it so hard to allow FE Warriors to do the same?

Other than not knowing whether or not a sequel is even in the works, which it very may well be, it'd still cost us another 60 dollars. I would've minded it less if they had included more installments in the DLC, but instead we'll just get more of the same, which feels like a wasted opportunity. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Thane

[Thany]

Man.... this chat sure turned into a mess...

I'm intrigued to see what they will announce after their first DLC wave, if these good sales actually mean a second DLC wave. or just an earlier work on the sequel.