Koei is apparently very happy with the sales

[Folt]

10 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Enemy classes wouldn't disappear because fates went from 9(12) to something like 5(7) characters. Enemies isn't what i was talking about. And to reiterate what i said in the post you replied to there isn't only 3 or 12 theres something like 6/5/4/4/4/2 pre dlc (maybe 8/7/6/6/5/2 after dlc) covering 5 games(5 orbs) giving fates and awakening extra still include 2 oc protagonists and creating a base which built upon could include characters from all continueties by game 2 covering all games by game 3 reasonable.

3 wasn't a compromise it was a given like they could only take 1 game.

If having one or to characters of my fav game less in one or more of the warriors games gives a hole game and fans of this game room it is sacrifice im willing to take especially in a crossover game.

And who is covering what?

We wouldn't get a more whole game if we went with 5 games over three. We'd get a roster that, while maybe looking more "whole" on paper, is actually more splintered in practice.

Only taking one game would have been pretty bad, but taking more than three games would have spread things too thin for a first installment. We're not supposed to overwhelm the poor people who's buying this game, and we're certainly not gonna suggest that people make themselves familiar with 6+ games before they buy. If you're gonna suggest to me that we should focus on quantity before quality, then I must outright disagree with you.

10 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

fates sold this much more than older games because of lucky circumstances like actual marketing have a way for no veterans to enjoy it with casual mode which is a good edition.

But marketing and especially nintendo directs letting people know these games exists are what moved sales. And the marriage stuff to certain extend.

Give them more ok, but why almost anything. Why centralise love for a series instead of spreading it. Show the new fans that there is more stuff different stuff something they might be interested in, while still giving them stuff they enjoyed already.

Lyn and Celica by themselves are already doing this, so there's no need to cut out all the Fates siblings (or the other characters who made it for that matter) that are already in just to include more characters from other games.

[TheRadiantKnight]

10 minutes ago, Folt said:

And who is covering what?

We wouldn't get a more whole game if we went with 5 games over three. We'd get a roster that, while maybe looking more "whole" on paper, is actually more splintered in practice.

Only taking one game would have been pretty bad, but taking more than three games would have spread things too thin for a first installment. We're not supposed to overwhelm the poor people who's buying this game, and we're certainly not gonna suggest that people make themselves familiar with 6+ games before they buy. If you're gonna suggest to me that we should focus on quantity before quality, then I must outright disagree with you.

6/5/4/4/4/2 meant fates 6 awakening 5 and 3 more games with 4 each and 2 oc characters. You say it's too thin when this is better than what shadow dragon got this game while only focusing on 3 games. Quality was never in question and overall quantity would be the same.

Edited November 2, 2017 by TheRadiantKnight

[Folt]

3 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

6/5/4/4/4/2 meant fates 6 awakening 5 3 more games 4 each and 2 oc characters. You say it's too thin when this is better than what shadow dragon got this ga

We're not cutting out three Fates siblings so we can include two more games. Especially not when only one choice character from those two games can spark curiosity by themselves.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Folt

[TheRadiantKnight]

15 minutes ago, Folt said:

We're not cutting out three Fates siblings so we can include two more games. Especially not when only one choice character from those two games can spark curiosity by themselves.

Not from where we are. We can't change the game now. The beginning was flawed. You seem to like these characters and thats fine but put yourself in the shoes of those who didn't got this lucky in a game where the possibility was there. And again compromise. 6 characters from one of 12 games in a crossover is decent to very good.

One choice with 6 would be Corrin, Ryouma, Takumi, Xander, Camilla and Azura balance of importance uniqueness and popularity.

Edited November 2, 2017 by TheRadiantKnight

[guedesbrawl]

1 hour ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

fates sold this much more than older games because of lucky circumstances like actual marketing have a way for no veterans to enjoy it with casual mode which is a good edition.

But marketing and especially nintendo directs letting people know these games exists are what moved sales. And the marriage stuff to certain extend.

Give them more ok, but why almost anything. Why centralise love for a series instead of spreading it. Show the new fans that there is more stuff different stuff something they might be interested in, while still giving them stuff they enjoyed already.

It doesn't matter why it sold well: it just matters that it DID sell. (If anything, i wouldn't say that fates was lucky, but that the others were unlucky. RD in particular... that was just painful).

Again: Fates's main cast not only comes from the most recent game they had as a frame of reference, these characters are all popular, unique among people of their class lines, convenient clones that fill niches we'd normally be lacking, and they are "face" characters for the game (which often goes hand-in-hand with importance, but not always).

Even in a full series game, i guarantee you they would have at least 9 of the 10 royals. It's simply the most logical thing to do, especially when Fates dwarfs pretty much everything in the series besides Awakening at the moment.

The part in bolded is what Heroes is doing. Try taking a look at which games got the most reps, and most importantly, which games they chose to focus for the base game.

You suggest just 6 of the royals. But you excluded Leo who is the MOST POPULAR of the guys in japan--they'd never do it. At the point where we have Takumi and Leo, it's a no-brainier to clone the little sisters from them, much like Hinoka is also an easy clone when Caeda's such a big "face" for Marth's games and the only other big peggy is Elincia. (We can argue about Cordelia, but i think she was not necessary. Awakening or not, we should've gotten another kind of clone over her)

 

[NeonZ]

1 hour ago, Folt said:

I'm talking in terms of regular FE classes, not the special ones that wouldn't have made it in anyways... No wait! Butlers and Ninjas and so on actually made it in as enemy variants so scratch that.

 

The Hoshido and Nohr enemy "class variants" in Warriors are just recolors. You've got "Butlers", but they're just Priests in Black robes (so they fight with spells rather than hidden weapons and their special ability is exactly the same as the preists, recovering health of nearby units if you allow them to approach the others and take too long to eliminate them). They don't have unique models or abilities, just name and colors. They don't even bother listing them in the in-game class list.

Edited November 2, 2017 by NeonZ

[HK Motendra]

46 minutes ago, NeonZ said:

The Hoshido and Nohr enemy "class variants" in Warriors are just recolors. You've got "Butlers", but they're just Priests in Black robes (so they fight with spells rather than hidden weapons and their special ability is exactly the same as the preists, recovering health of nearby units if you allow them to approach the others and take too long to eliminate them). They don't have unique models or abilities, just name and colors. They don't even bother listing them in the in-game class list.

This is one of the improvements that I hope is rectified in the next installment. Its both weird and a little (with hindsight) funny that "mercenaries" are actually myrmidons when back in the day, myrms didn't exist and were instead mercs.

[TheRadiantKnight]

53 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

It doesn't matter why it sold well: it just matters that it DID sell. (If anything, i wouldn't say that fates was lucky, but that the others were unlucky. RD in particular... that was just painful).

Again: Fates's main cast not only comes from the most recent game they had as a frame of reference, these characters are all popular, unique among people of their class lines, convenient clones that fill niches we'd normally be lacking, and they are "face" characters for the game (which often goes hand-in-hand with importance, but not always).

Even in a full series game, i guarantee you they would have at least 9 of the 10 royals. It's simply the most logical thing to do, especially when Fates dwarfs pretty much everything in the series besides Awakening at the moment.

The part in bolded is what Heroes is doing. Try taking a look at which games got the most reps, and most importantly, which games they chose to focus for the base game.

You suggest just 6 of the royals. But you excluded Leo who is the MOST POPULAR of the guys in japan--they'd never do it. At the point where we have Takumi and Leo, it's a no-brainier to clone the little sisters from them, much like Hinoka is also an easy clone when Caeda's such a big "face" for Marth's games and the only other big peggy is Elincia. (We can argue about Cordelia, but i think she was not necessary. Awakening or not, we should've gotten another kind of clone over her)

 

Yes i excluded Leo, my favorite royal of fates, because im able to make a compromise. I suggested dlc giving fates 2 more reps. Leo could be a part of that. And adding characters of an overrepresented game as clones when adding other games gives cloning oppurtunites as well is selfish.

Saying there unique is a bold and arrogant statement. Why are they more unique then others? There just more explored then other characters.

And something more general. I can expect people to wait for one of there favs for dlc or a second game, to represent more games and be able to get to all games in 3 warrior titles.They way they decided to go won't give us all games till probably 5 which who knows if they get there.

You expect fans of 75% of the games to wait without much hope for representation just so you get for example leo in or hinoka in. While you or devs or others aren't able to wait for one or two characters to share a bit.

[Folt]

1 hour ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Not from where we are. We can't change the game now. The beginning was flawed. You seem to like these characters and thats fine but put yourself in the shoes of those who didn't got this lucky in a game where the possibility was there. And again compromise. 6 characters from one of 12 games in a crossover is decent to very good.

One choice with 6 would be Corrin, Ryouma, Takumi, Xander, Camilla and Azura balance of importance uniqueness and popularity.

Leo is about as important to Fates as Takumi is so he should be a part of the cast either way. I'd also let Hinoka in alongside Caeda and one more Peg. Knight so we can do Triangle Attack shenanigans. I also have issues with you excluding Sakura (who is one of the more unique healers in the FE series) and Elise (who is probably the best and one of the most likeliest choices we have for a standard Troubadour unit).

1 hour ago, NeonZ said:

The Hoshido and Nohr enemy "class variants" in Warriors are just recolors. You've got "Butlers", but they're just Priests in Black robes (so they fight with spells rather than hidden weapons and their special ability is exactly the same as the preists, recovering health of nearby units if you allow them to approach the others and take too long to eliminate them). They don't have unique models or abilities, just name and colors. They don't even bother listing them in the in-game class list.

Which is fine with me, since Butlers/Maids are primarily healing units in Fates and they need to be there as Nohr's answer to Priests and Monks. They're in and they're doing what they're supposed to do which is healing other units and being annoying as a result.

 

18 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Yes i excluded Leo, my favorite royal of fates, because im able to make a compromise. I suggested dlc giving fates 2 more reps. Leo could be a part of that. And adding characters of an overrepresented game as clones when adding other games gives cloning oppurtunites as well is selfish.

Saying there unique is a bold and arrogant statement. Why are they more unique then others? There just more explored then other characters.

And something more general. I can expect people to wait for one of there favs for dlc or a second game, to represent more games and be able to get to all games in 3 warrior titles.They way they decided to go won't give us all games till probably 5 which who knows if they get there.

You expect fans of 75% of the games to wait without much hope for representation just so you get for example leo in or hinoka in. While you or devs or others aren't able to wait for one or two characters to share a bit.

And we don't need all games to be represented. There's simply too many of them to make that feasible in two or three games. Simply go with SD/Awakening/Fates for this game, expand upon that with Binding Blade/Path of Radiance/FE Switch for the next game, then expand upon that yet again with Blazing Blade/something like Mystery of the Emblem or Gaiden/new FE game and keep going from there, perhaps include some off-the-focus characters like this game did with Lyn and Celica.

[guedesbrawl]

1 hour ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Yes i excluded Leo, my favorite royal of fates, because im able to make a compromise. I suggested dlc giving fates 2 more reps. Leo could be a part of that. And adding characters of an overrepresented game as clones when adding other games gives cloning oppurtunites as well is selfish.

Saying there unique is a bold and arrogant statement. Why are they more unique then others? There just more explored then other characters.

And something more general. I can expect people to wait for one of there favs for dlc or a second game, to represent more games and be able to get to all games in 3 warrior titles.They way they decided to go won't give us all games till probably 5 which who knows if they get there.

You expect fans of 75% of the games to wait without much hope for representation just so you get for example leo in or hinoka in. While you or devs or others aren't able to wait for one or two characters to share a bit.

It's not a bold and arrogant statement, and has nothing to do with exploration. You are thinking about characterization and not what truly matters: gameplay.

It's about looking at all the male royals and seeing that one can become an mama effing dragon and the others have fancy PRF weapons with elemental properties that nobody in their respective class trees have an answer to except maybe some ancient japan-only character from Jugdral that would never get in anytime soon anyways. It's looking at Camilla and not at her chest and realizing she uses Axes AND Magic. It's looking at Sakura and realizing no other character can be a Takumi clone and also bring staff-utility to the table, and applying the same logic to Elise from Leo. Hinoka... is mostly there to complete the quartets tbh, but she is the second most important/relevant lance peggy we have, who can be cloned from Caeda unlike Elincia. Thanks to everyone else's uniqueness, there aren't that many people we can clone others from.

I like how you think fans of this 75% of FE cannot be fans of the other 25%.

And the way they decided to go about it gives us all FE in about 3 games:

FEW1: SD, Awakening, Fates. Valentia will most likely get DLC here because of timing and because that game's roster is extremely limited in moveset potential.

FEW2: Switch,PoR+RD, FE7 + Roy.

Realistically speaking what people truly want from FE6 is Roy, and Roy alone solely because our boy is badass in smash  . Like Jugdral, this part of the series really depends on a remake dropping, and I find it unlikely we'll get much from it even then because the only other people who serve any purpose someone else isn't covering by then would be... no one. That's not to say Zephiel, Idoun and Fa can't be added to do stuff, but we'll have people doing their jobs already. (The way Tiki was done here makes me think a Dragon Laguz is the only other Dragon-type we can get, tho. And... I suppose maybe a Nomad could be used, but in an action game, I think Bows with mobility would be too imbalanced against fliers, both for and against the player )

New Mystery is likely not going to be remade anytime soon, but the only truly relevant picks from there are Katarina and Hardin anyways. Kris... is in a delicate position mostly because of their class--that and i believe everyone hates them.

Jugdral's games, if remade, will probably only arrive in time for FEW3. But Heroes has introduced these people to the public, so they could drop as a DLC pack by FEW2.

Magvel will likely take ages to be remade, and honestly only needs its two protagonists and maybe Leon to be well represented, so I can see a Magvel pack dropping for any of the games, if it isn't a focus for FEW3 together with the newest original game after Switch.

So, for FEW3, NewFE+Jugdral's games+FE8 is a possibility.

I honestly don't care for Leo unless we are talking shipping. But cutting the most popular male character in japan is just dumb. Not focusing on Fates while it and Awakening are the hottest parts of the franchise is also dumb. Making the fanbase from said hottest part of the series wait just to please the fanbase from the comercial failures, games over a decade old and japan-only games (while also netting us less games, and overall less content) is also amazingly dumb, especially when you think of this as a business, which is how the devs are looking at it.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by guedesbrawl

[Tolvir]

This is more in regards to some discussions I saw earlier in the thread.

I think Tellius has had a situation much like Princess Bride, Pitch Black, and other movies regarded as cult classics. What happens with cult classics for those who dont know is they typically under perform when initially released. They dont make much money, and go silent for a few years. But in those few years, what fans there were of it hype it up more and more, it gains a following, and eventually becomes popular. Pointing back to Princess Bride as the prime example of this, where it failed in the box office but is insanely popular to this day.

Tellius is in a similar boat. I am not about to say Tellius games are insanely popular, but I will say that if they released again today, their sales would likely be 10x better. Why? Because its got a cult following to it. The game has really mellowed out in the community and thanks a lot to Smash, has gotten a bit of something going for it due to Ike's popularity. The biggest thing standing in its way is actual playability, because as it is right now you cant play it without emulation.

So I think Tellius is in a much better standing than it was back when it was released something like a decade ago, and I think its inclusion into FEW2 is both likely, but also may help it. Micaiah, Ike, and Nephenee all placed in CYL for a reason, and while CYL is not exactly the most citable source for popularity, it does show a lot for a series that was the largest flop the FE series has seen.

[TheRadiantKnight]

2 hours ago, Folt said:

Leo is about as important to Fates as Takumi is so he should be a part of the cast either way. I'd also let Hinoka in alongside Caeda and one more Peg. Knight so we can do Triangle Attack shenanigans. I also have issues with you excluding Sakura (who is one of the more unique healers in the FE series) and Elise (who is probably the best and one of the most likeliest choices we have for a standard Troubadour unit).

Just because someone is important doesn't mean he should be in the game same with popularity. These are things to consider but not something that should automatically give them a spot. While you have issuses with missing characters i have issuses with missing games, but the thing is fates fans already would have gotten enough with 6+2 dlc. And leo would be dlc as mentioned.

 

2 hours ago, Folt said:

And we don't need all games to be represented. There's simply too many of them to make that feasible in two or three games. Simply go with SD/Awakening/Fates for this game, expand upon that with Binding Blade/Path of Radiance/FE Switch for the next game, then expand upon that yet again with Blazing Blade/something like Mystery of the Emblem or Gaiden/new FE game and keep going from there, perhaps include some off-the-focus characters like this game did with Lyn and Celica.

Why would you not want to represent all games of a franchise. 12 is not that many that it is impossible. FEW 1: 5 games, FEW 2: 4 games + FE switch, FEW 3: 3 games + possible FE switch 2 and then FEW 4 expand + possible new FE. This is feasible you just don't want to admit it and want specific characters.

 

1 hour ago, guedesbrawl said:

It's not a bold and arrogant statement, and has nothing to do with exploration. You are thinking about characterization and not what truly matters: gameplay.

You just said unique so i wasn't sure. So you meant gameplay. So because someone has a unique weapon or unique combination of weapons it justifies not adding more games which could bring uniqueness in movesets regardless course its a warriors game.

 

1 hour ago, guedesbrawl said:

I like how you think fans of this 75% of FE cannot be fans of the other 25%.

Never said they couldn't but if my favorite game would be sacred stones and i heard of a crossover i would be pumped. Yeah taking castles with Ephraim in this game is reasonable. Playing as characters from this game is what i would hope for. I probably would also like other games but that doesn't justify having no chance of decend representation until FEW 5+.

 

1 hour ago, guedesbrawl said:

I honestly don't care for Leo unless we are talking shipping. But cutting the most popular male character in japan is just dumb. Not focusing on Fates while it and Awakening are the hottest parts of the franchise is also dumb. Making the fanbase from said hottest part of the series wait just to please the fanbase from the comercial failures, games over a decade old and japan-only games (while also netting us less games, and overall less content) is also amazingly dumb, especially when you think of this as a business, which is how the devs are looking at it.

I always said fates and awakening would be focused games. I even said they would get more representation than the others just not this much. Why are unable to offer a few spots for whole game representation. And again leo dlc.

Edited November 2, 2017 by TheRadiantKnight

[Folt]

40 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Just because someone is important doesn't mean he should be in the game same with popularity. These are things to consider but not something that should automatically give them a spot. While you have issuses with missing characters i have issuses with missing games, but the thing is fates fans already would have gotten enough with 6+2 dlc. And leo would be dlc as mentioned.

Leo is too important as-is with his Brynhildr and being Takumi's counterpart. In addition, he is extremely popular, so there's importance to the plot + popularity and unlike, say, Azura, he is particularly important to the Hoshido vs. Nohr part of the game whereas Azura's importance is mainly in the tuff that pertains to Valla.

Why would you not want to represent all games of a franchise. 12 is not that many that it is impossible. FEW 1: 5 games, FEW 2: 4 games + FE switch, FEW 3: 3 games + possible FE switch 2 and then FEW 4 expand + possible new FE. This is feasible you just don't want to admit it and want specific characters.

1. Stretching things out too thin for stuff to actually work. 2. Money and time issues. 3. Manpower needs to be spent not just at the characters but at the items, the weapons, the story mode, the other modes, miscellaneous things like supports, special battle quotes, battle grunts, voice actors to voice all that stuff, etc. etc. And the fewer games you use in the base, the less time you spend at each of these things and the more you leave as stuff to potentially recycle for the next game (like battle quotes and grunts and movesets, etc. etc.) so you can actually expand upon what you have.

You just said unique so i wasn't sure. So you meant gameplay. So because someone has a unique weapon or unique combination of weapons it justifies not adding more games which could bring uniqueness in movesets regardless course its a warriors game.

The thing here is that no one is using combinations of weapons. They all use one type of weapon for their regular movesets and maybe pull out their secondary weapon for their Warrior Special/Dual Special/Awakening Special. But the addition of FE stats and whether or not they are able to use staves help differentiate them in meaningful ways.

Never said they couldn't but if my favorite game would be sacred stones and i heard of a crossover i would be pumped. Yeah taking castles with Ephraim in this game is reasonable. Playing as characters from this game is what i would hope for. I probably would also like other games but that doesn't justify having no chance of decend representation until FEW 5+.

Oh, I love Ephraim too, but here's the thing: We have this game with Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and Fates as focuses + Lyn and Celica. Who says that subsequent games won't be able to sneak in Ephraim as a non-focus character, even if he isn't part of the focus games, as a character in the sequel or in the sequel after that. Sacred Stones is one of the less popular FEs but representation before FEW 5+ is certainly possible with the way they're treating non-focus games.

I always said fates and awakening would be focused games. I even said they would get more representation than the others just not this much. Why are unable to offer a few spots for whole game representation. And again leo dlc.

Because quite frankly, I have no intention of playing Lord Emblem Warriors the game. With the restricted representation, the only normal FE class we're missing is the Knight/General class and, counting Lissa as our infantry axe, every regular class has some form of representative character who brings the quirks and abilities of the class into the game and ensures a large variety of decent picks, in terms of both gameplay and strategy.

 

[TheRadiantKnight]

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

Leo is too important as-is with his Brynhildr and being Takumi's counterpart. In addition, he is extremely popular, so there's importance to the plot + popularity and unlike, say, Azura, he is particularly important to the Hoshido vs. Nohr part of the game whereas Azura's importance is mainly in the tuff that pertains to Valla.

If thats the case remove azura add Leo. Now there would be an imbalance that cannot stand this fates unfair representation of kingdoms impossible, so add Hinoka and remove one of ocs or put one of the other games one down. And as compensatation bring only one dlc character for fates azura problem. One suggestion from one actually looking for one.

 

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

1. Stretching things out too thin for stuff to actually work. 2. Money and time issues. 3. Manpower needs to be spent not just at the characters but at the items, the weapons, the story mode, the other modes, miscellaneous things like supports, special battle quotes, battle grunts, voice actors to voice all that stuff, etc. etc. And the fewer games you use in the base, the less time you spend at each of these things and the more you leave as stuff to potentially recycle for the next game (like battle quotes and grunts and movesets, etc. etc.) so you can actually expand upon what you have.

1. Again with my suggestion every game would be better of than shadow dragon is now. Why shouldn't it work?

2. and 3. Im literally suggestion a game with just as much characters with about ten characters being different. Some will take more some will take less. It wouldn't increase the workload by much.

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

The thing here is that no one is using combinations of weapons. They all use one type of weapon for their regular movesets and maybe pull out their secondary weapon for their Warrior Special/Dual Special/Awakening Special. But the addition of FE stats and whether or not they are able to use staves help differentiate them in meaningful ways.

If there don't using combinations why did you even bring this up a point. If it's just specials thats not close to enough to use this as an uniqueness argument, because with specials you can do crazy stuff regardless of weapons or characters.

 

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

Oh, I love Ephraim too, but here's the thing: We have this game with Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and Fates as focuses + Lyn and Celica. Who says that subsequent games won't be able to sneak in Ephraim as a non-focus character, even if he isn't part of the focus games, as a character in the sequel or in the sequel after that. Sacred Stones is one of the less popular FEs but representation before FEW 5+ is certainly possible with the way they're treating non-focus games.

Ephraim was just an example. But for you it seems impossible to sacrifice only one of eight siblings, yet ephraim alone go for it. If you put your argument on importance those single characters aren't good for your argument. If you can't add takumi without leo you sure can't add ephraim without eirika. But as long as the non focus game isn't your favorite game or popular it's ok.

 

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

Because quite frankly, I have no intention of playing Lord Emblem Warriors the game. With the restricted representation, the only normal FE class we're missing is the Knight/General class and, counting Lissa as our infantry axe, every regular class has some form of representative character who brings the quirks and abilities of the class into the game and ensures a large variety of decent picks, in terms of both gameplay and strategy.

But why would a game with ten different characters( same amount in the end ) be less diverse. Just because they are fates characters doesn't mean there moveset is better or weapons, classes and movesets are more diverse thats a task for the developers.

Edited November 2, 2017 by TheRadiantKnight

[YotsuMaboroshi]

19 minutes ago, Folt said:

Because quite frankly, I have no intention of playing Lord Emblem Warriors the game. With the restricted representation, the only normal FE class we're missing is the Knight/General class and, counting Lissa as our infantry axe, every regular class has some form of representative character who brings the quirks and abilities of the class into the game and ensures a large variety of decent picks, in terms of both gameplay and strategy.

While generally speaking I agree with you that the restriction to 3 games was beneficial, we are missing more than just Knight/General.  At the very least, we're missing Mercenaries, Clerics, and Fighters as well.  I'd also argue we're missing Cavaliers, despite having both of their promotions.  You can make the argument that these classes have representation, but I think that argument is a bit sketchy. 

While strictly speaking Lissa is a combination Cleric/Fighter, her moveset doesn't really work for any other character in the series except maybe Libra, and it severely downplays the standard Cleric parts, limiting that to her specials and one charge.  This leaves us with a moveset that's more Fighter than Cleric, but can't actually be used for any other Fighters in the series, and we don't have a standard magic wielding Cleric/Sage/Bishop (at least until Linde, since presumably her promotion will be Sage, but her moveset will likely be more Mage based than Cleric based, given her original class).

The closest thing we have to a Mercenary is Chrom/Lucina, who are Lords.  Neither of these characters are particularly associated with the Mercenary class line, with the best connection being that their fighting style and Aether are similar like Ike's, who was the original Lord Mercenary.  Neither of them uses axes in any capacity either (Chrom gets a Lance, Lucina gets Bow), which is the traditional Hero addition Mercs gain on promotion.  So we don't actually have a proper Mercenary rep (largely because too many swords, but still).

Cavaliers are one of the standard early game Lance users (I think they're generally the first lance user you tend to get actually, thanks to the Christmas Knights being a recurring archetype), while our Paladin and Great Knight use a Sword and an Axe, respectively.  Xander's Paladin set is the closest to a standard Cavalier, but still, Sword user instead of Lance user.

Overall, I don't think the game suffers by not including them (except maybe a standard Cavalier lance set, but that's more due to the Pegasus Knights being the only current lance users), but I don't think you can say that the game properly represents all of the standard FE classes except Knight.

[TheRadiantKnight]

1 hour ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

While generally speaking I agree with you that the restriction to 3 games was beneficial, we are missing more than just Knight/General.  At the very least, we're missing Mercenaries, Clerics, and Fighters as well.  I'd also argue we're missing Cavaliers, despite having both of their promotions.  You can make the argument that these classes have representation, but I think that argument is a bit sketchy. 

Why is it beneficial to restrict to this game to 3 games. Lets say 5 Games with 7/4/4/4/4/2 pre dlc.

Corrin,Ryouma, Xander, Takumi, Leo, Hinoka, Camilla

Chrom, Lissa, Frederick, Robin

Marth, Shiida, Tiki, (Jeorge)

Eliwood, Hector, Lyn, (Oswin)

Ike, Soren, Titania,(Mist)

OCs

Those with brackets are wildcards easily changeable, if need be.
Which gives us

robin and corrin ( unique )  because could be whats in the game or could be altered. 2 OC could stay the way they are or be altered so those 4 plus
8 swords, 5 axes, 3 lances, 2 bows, 2 magic, 1 dragonstone so weapon triangle works arguably even better

For the record i only changed 8 characters so not that much was changed

Sakura, Elise, Lucina, Cordelia, Celica, Anna, Robin(f), Corrin(m) out
Jeorge, Eliwood, Hector, Oswin, Ike, Soren, Titania, Mist in

Armor Knight and Valkyrie GET!

Edited November 3, 2017 by TheRadiantKnight

[guedesbrawl]

37 minutes ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

While generally speaking I agree with you that the restriction to 3 games was beneficial, we are missing more than just Knight/General.  At the very least, we're missing Mercenaries, Clerics, and Fighters as well.  I'd also argue we're missing Cavaliers, despite having both of their promotions.  You can make the argument that these classes have representation, but I think that argument is a bit sketchy. 

While strictly speaking Lissa is a combination Cleric/Fighter, her moveset doesn't really work for any other character in the series except maybe Libra, and it severely downplays the standard Cleric parts, limiting that to her specials and one charge.  This leaves us with a moveset that's more Fighter than Cleric, but can't actually be used for any other Fighters in the series, and we don't have a standard magic wielding Cleric/Sage/Bishop (at least until Linde, since presumably her promotion will be Sage, but her moveset will likely be more Mage based than Cleric based, given her original class).

The closest thing we have to a Mercenary is Chrom/Lucina, who are Lords.  Neither of these characters are particularly associated with the Mercenary class line, with the best connection being that their fighting style and Aether are similar like Ike's, who was the original Lord Mercenary.  Neither of them uses axes in any capacity either (Chrom gets a Lance, Lucina gets Bow), which is the traditional Hero addition Mercs gain on promotion.  So we don't actually have a proper Mercenary rep (largely because too many swords, but still).

Cavaliers are one of the standard early game Lance users (I think they're generally the first lance user you tend to get actually, thanks to the Christmas Knights being a recurring archetype), while our Paladin and Great Knight use a Sword and an Axe, respectively.  Xander's Paladin set is the closest to a standard Cavalier, but still, Sword user instead of Lance user.

Overall, I don't think the game suffers by not including them (except maybe a standard Cavalier lance set, but that's more due to the Pegasus Knights being the only current lance users), but I don't think you can say that the game properly represents all of the standard FE classes except Knight.

I think Lissa quite comfortably represents both cleric and fighter, Merc isn't there but really, Chrom's moveset is an equivalent. (This is a bit of self awareness, because the best reps for those 2 classes are our protags from Tellius). Considering the number of slots, it's a compromise.

Or that's what i'd like to say, but we could've gotten another weapon for the OC Twins, and as cool as a dual blade moveset for Navarre is, we really didn't need Myrmidon represented in two movesets (that and Ryoma's). Though i've heard that Navarre was a merc originally, so... it's coming???? lol

And the lack of lances doesn't suddenly mean the Cavalier class isn't there between Xander and Frederick, pretty sure Frederick also throws a lance in one of his moves. Honestly, it's like saying Camilla suddenly doesn't count as a wyvern because of no lances.

2 hours ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Just because someone is important doesn't mean he should be in the game same with popularity. These are things to consider but not something that should automatically give them a spot. While you have issuses with missing characters i have issuses with missing games, but the thing is fates fans already would have gotten enough with 6+2 dlc. And leo would be dlc as mentioned.

 

Why would you not want to represent all games of a franchise. 12 is not that many that it is impossible. FEW 1: 5 games, FEW 2: 4 games + FE switch, FEW 3: 3 games + possible FE switch 2 and then FEW 4 expand + possible new FE. This is feasible you just don't want to admit it and want specific characters.

 

You just said unique so i wasn't sure. So you meant gameplay. So because someone has a unique weapon or unique combination of weapons it justifies not adding more games which could bring uniqueness in movesets regardless course its a warriors game.

 

Never said they couldn't but if my favorite game would be sacred stones and i heard of a crossover i would be pumped. Yeah taking castles with Ephraim in this game is reasonable. Playing as characters from this game is what i would hope for. I probably would also like other games but that doesn't justify having no chance of decend representation until FEW 5+.

 

I always said fates and awakening would be focused games. I even said they would get more representation than the others just not this much. Why are unable to offer a few spots for whole game representation. And again leo dlc.

Just importance or just popularity? point. Problem is, all the lords of all the games hit both aspects (This includes all of fates's royalty), and few other characters manage to accomplish that. On top of being the most recognizable characters of their games, I guarantee you: a full-series roster would be 90%+ Lords. That's how they'd build it, and that's what any reasonable people would be expecting.

You are mixing up arguments. I didn't say fates excludes the other games because of uniqueness: I even gave you a full-series roster (Except for jugdral) that had all 10 royals and was just barely bigger than the intended base game, for example. Uniqueness is just a huge edge that (when coupled with Popularity, Recognizability, Recency and Importance...which are all in Fates's side) would guarantee the presence of those people in the roster compared to any other character of the same class tree that they compete against. 6 is probably enough if you just want to satisfy the fans, but other concerns like gameplay which is just as important as the fanservice... you still end up with at least 9 royals. Hino

Unless, of course, you don't care about dumbing down the gameplay with lesser choices, which is an aspect that has equal if not more weight than fanservice given that it's what makes people keep playing and the fun factor building momentum.

Having so many games ensures all of them will be half-assed for DLC, have too much content ignored for DLC/sequels like you tried to do, or improperly represented because of missing key characters. Tellius in particular would suffer a lot, as would Fates, given the wide range of unique+important people both games have. Splitting the series into chunks is much more manageable for the devs AND will ultimately give us more for each individual game.

They had Celica without Alm and Lyn without ELiwood/Hector. As a non-focus extra, Ephraim can definitively make it alone. He shouldn't, but there's precedent.

 And please stop acting like they can't tackle all that we have plus 2 new FEs within 3 games, if not 2 depending on how far they take DLC. I already demonstrated it to you.

[guedesbrawl]

3 minutes ago, TheRadiantKnight said:

Why is it beneficial to restrict to this game to 3 games. Lets say 5 Games with 7/4/4/4/4/2 pre dlc.

Corrin,Ryouma, Xander, Takumi, Leo, Hinoka, Camilla

Chrom, Lissa, Frederick, Robin

Marth, Shiida, Tiki, (Jeorge)

Eliwood, Hector, Lyn, (Oswin)

Ike, Soren, Titania,(Mist)

OCs

Those with brackets are wildcards easily changeable, if need be.
Which gives us

robin and corrin ( unique )  because could be whats in the game or could be altered. 2 OC could stay the way they are or be altered so those 4 plus
8 swords, 5 axes, 3 lances, 2 bows, 2 magic, 1 dragonstone so weapon triangle works arguably even better

For the record i only changed 8 characters so not that much was changed

Sakura, Elise, Lucina, Cordelia, Celica, Anna, Robin(f), Corrin(m) out
Jeorge, Eliwood, Hector, Oswin, Ike, Soren, Titania, Mist in

Armor Knight and Valkyrie GET!

Had to double post because this showed up as i posted.

First of all, you are working with MCorrin and FRobin as if they had the weight of a character with their own slot. Don't be stupid.

Second, IS/Nintendo would never let you not use Lucina, one of Alm or Celica, and probably Anna. Be realistic.

Thirdly, you excluded just clones, but added unique people in their place. Be realistic. There is a reason we got clones in the first place. For example, in Smash Bros. Melee, director Masahiro Sakurai said he had the option of adding 1 unique character, or 6 clones. As a musou is not as complex as a fighting game, I imagine 4 is a reasonable number of clones to equal a unique character.

Fourth: The Valkyrie class line was already effectively represented through Elise (who does it far better than Mist who strays a lot from what valkyries are and is literally Staff!Xander). Strategist is literally the same thing as the normal valkyrie. Not that you'd know given that you thought different avatar genders somehow could equal a full new character. Don't be ignorant.

I'll reword what I said before: you severely misunderstand how game development works, how the business behind the games work, and severely underestimate key aspects of game design.

 

[Thany]

Man.... this discussion feels like a mess, here I was thinking we would celebrate their good sales with good hopes for the future of the game.

[Interdimensional Observer]

13 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

who does it far better than Mist who strays a lot from what valkyries are

Mist was a return to the original "Valkyries" actually. FE4 and 5 had Troubadours who promoted to Female Paladin. FE6 made the changeover to tomes and Female Paladin to Valkyrie for them because GBA FE doesn't do Strength and Magic. Much later, Awakening brought back magic using Valkyries and gave the Sword-Staff combo to Adventurers.

So really Valkyries or "proto-Valkyries" in the case of Female Paladin have been:

Swords: 4 times

Tomes: 5 times

Fates alone tipped the balance. Although if I wanted to be annoying I'd assert Sword-Staff is still more numerous via Paramythis in Berwick Saga and Mel in TearRing Saga. 

[TheRadiantKnight]

45 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

I think Lissa quite comfortably represents both cleric and fighter, Merc isn't there but really, Chrom's moveset is an equivalent. (This is a bit of self awareness, because the best reps for those 2 classes are our protags from Tellius). Considering the number of slots, it's a compromise.

Or that's what i'd like to say, but we could've gotten another weapon for the OC Twins, and as cool as a dual blade moveset for Navarre is, we really didn't need Myrmidon represented in two movesets (that and Ryoma's). Though i've heard that Navarre was a merc originally, so... it's coming???? lol

And the lack of lances doesn't suddenly mean the Cavalier class isn't there between Xander and Frederick, pretty sure Frederick also throws a lance in one of his moves. Honestly, it's like saying Camilla suddenly doesn't count as a wyvern because of no lances.

Just importance or just popularity? point. Problem is, all the lords of all the games hit both aspects (This includes all of fates's royalty), and few other characters manage to accomplish that. On top of being the most recognizable characters of their games, I guarantee you: a full-series roster would be 90%+ Lords. That's how they'd build it, and that's what any reasonable people would be expecting.

You are mixing up arguments. I didn't say fates excludes the other games because of uniqueness: I even gave you a full-series roster (Except for jugdral) that had all 10 royals and was just barely bigger than the intended base game, for example. Uniqueness is just a huge edge that (when coupled with Popularity, Recognizability, Recency and Importance...which are all in Fates's side) would guarantee the presence of those people in the roster compared to any other character of the same class tree that they compete against. 6 is probably enough if you just want to satisfy the fans, but other concerns like gameplay which is just as important as the fanservice... you still end up with at least 9 royals. Hino

Unless, of course, you don't care about dumbing down the gameplay with lesser choices, which is an aspect that has equal if not more weight than fanservice given that it's what makes people keep playing and the fun factor building momentum.

Having so many games ensures all of them will be half-assed for DLC, have too much content ignored for DLC/sequels like you tried to do, or improperly represented because of missing key characters. Tellius in particular would suffer a lot, as would Fates, given the wide range of unique+important people both games have. Splitting the series into chunks is much more manageable for the devs AND will ultimately give us more for each individual game.

They had Celica without Alm and Lyn without ELiwood/Hector. As a non-focus extra, Ephraim can definitively make it alone. He shouldn't, but there's precedent.

 And please stop acting like they can't tackle all that we have plus 2 new FEs within 3 games, if not 2 depending on how far they take DLC. I already demonstrated it to you.

Importance applies really only to the male siblings. At the point that (your/the devs) way reached a full series roster my roster yours would probably be identical. It's just a matter of how long certain games have to wait.

Uniqueness comes from movesets some may be easier to think of but in warrior games it's possible.

Look at my roster with 5 games as i made compromises. What am i dumbing down im adding if anything. I changed only 8 characters and gained classes in the process. Mine are not lesser choices because there different than yours. But there more fair.

To make it clear at the time when all games are represented in your variant your rosters would be the same because i have just as much character as you per game. But while i would be all series by entry 3 you would leave games on one characters until at least game 4 having full series representation at 5 at the earliest. But by then our rosters are the same.

32 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Had to double post because this showed up as i posted.

First of all, you are working with MCorrin and FRobin as if they had the weight of a character with their own slot. Don't be stupid.

Second, IS/Nintendo would never let you not use Lucina, one of Alm or Celica, and probably Anna. Be realistic.

Thirdly, you excluded just clones, but added unique people in their place. Be realistic. There is a reason we got clones in the first place. For example, in Smash Bros. Melee, director Masahiro Sakurai said he had the option of adding 1 unique character, or 6 clones. As a musou is not as complex as a fighting game, I imagine 4 is a reasonable number of clones to equal a unique character.

Fourth: The Valkyrie class line was already effectively represented through Elise (who does it far better than Mist who strays a lot from what valkyries are and is literally Staff!Xander). Strategist is literally the same thing as the normal valkyrie. Not that you'd know given that you thought different avatar genders somehow could equal a full new character. Don't be ignorant.

I'll reword what I said before: you severely misunderstand how game development works, how the business behind the games work, and severely underestimate key aspects of game design.

Yes i expect them to put more effort they missing armor knights which should have been in. So a more work is justified to a certain extend.

Lucina is the first dlc problem solved.

I didn't for the most part your reaching. Oswin is new the rest has clone potential.

You like elise more ok, but man favoritism much.

You just won't stop attacking me. I made a roster comparable in effort to what we got.

Edited November 3, 2017 by TheRadiantKnight

[guedesbrawl]

No, Importance applies to the female siblings as well between being recurrent boss fights and having important moments in the story, all of the royals have importance.

Uniqueness comes from movesets. Which characters have the most potential for said uniqueness? Fates's. The only people this isn't true for is Elise and Hinoka, who are convenient clones.

Again, IS would never let you do that with Lucina. The mere fact that you are using DLC to justify your holes should speak to your roster's integrity. You need lots of DLC to get all of the games represented, and represented well. There is not as much of a burden with focus games.

Oswin is not the only unique character you added. Hector, Ike and Jeorge (unless he can use Wind magic or you plan to dumb down Takumi), Soren(unless you are suggesting a Wind specialist as a Robin clone) and Mist (unless you mean she was supposed to be Staff!Xander) would all need new movesets. There isn't a clone equivalent for all of them. It's easy to make a better roster when you give yourself so much more resources. Be realistic.

I actually despise Elise's character. She's annoying. Even if she was my precious waifu it doesn't change that she already represented Valkyrie since her base class is Troubadour. This is not a point you have over the main roster, and in fact, it's something that wouldn't go through because Mist starts on-foot and gets a pony. Her identity is of a cleric. Unlike Eliwood, Mist is not important enough to have this factor overlooked when Tellius comes up.

You had PoR as a focus game but no Elincia, and not a single Laguz. Fates is missing royals. You would place random-ass Jeorge over so many other more important or iconic characters like Minerva, Camus, Linde, Ogma, Navarre and Merric. As much as I loathe to say it, Lucina is also missing and is important enough to be in the base game. DLC!Azura got enough of a backlash, Lucina would be suicide. And IS wouldn't let you.

DLCina. This amuses me.

 

[dmurr]

24 minutes ago, Thany said:

Man.... this discussion feels like a mess, here I was thinking we would celebrate their good sales with good hopes for the future of the game.

I know, right?

Why are we still arguing about the roster? We got what we got, let's move on. Since they're happy with the sales then maybe now we can start thinking about who would be great in the sequel. Hyrule Warriors Legends came out about a year and a half after Hyrule Warriors, but it also needed the work to port it. They'd probably add more new content into a sequel though, so I'd think it's reasonable to expect a similar timeframe. Maybe end of year next year or early 2019. I doubt we'd get a full focus on the new game since it's supposed to come out next year, more likely we'd get one character a la Celica. 

[HK Motendra]

1 hour ago, guedesbrawl said:

First of all, you are working with MCorrin and FRobin as if they had the weight of a character with their own slot. Don't be stupid.

I don't want to get back into this, but while this point is technically true with them being costumes, the official site treats them as such with their own [numbered] character page. Matter fact, when you count them, the actual playable character count becomes 25, which would have made for a nice number to stop at, instead of the odd 23

[Jedi]

1 hour ago, Thany said:

Man.... this discussion feels like a mess, here I was thinking we would celebrate their good sales with good hopes for the future of the game.

You're in the wrong fandom for that.