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19 minutes ago, NeonZ said:

Yeah, it was. I had never noticed it here in Warriors though. It's even odder because he shares Lyn's two sword-style gameplay-wise that's clearly not mercenary-like at all. And he uses two swords in his cutscenes, so they aren't going to remove that even if the DLC characters get updated movesets when they become playable.

It's probably because Navarre, dual wielded in his old card art and the OVA.

4 hours ago, The DanMan said:

No Warriors crossover has followed that trend, though.

As was said Legends did, but I'm just mildly cynical.

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3 minutes ago, Folt said:

Yay, now I have an excuse to post this little thing I found on YouTube:

 

Hey I'm honestly hoping his promotion design is based on the OVA design, it's good.

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23 minutes ago, Jedi said:

As was said Legends did, but I'm just mildly cynical.

Legends was made to eke more out of the Japanese market by releasing the game on 3DS.
Only I'm allowed to be super cynical around here.

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2 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

HW was a delicate case where it launched on the Wii U and the 3DS could've given them way, way more profit.

Pretty much, which is why it’s an odd case. FeW released on both consoles so I doubt we will have that scenario. 

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8 hours ago, Folt said:

Chrom and Lucina's moveset is very standard mercenary fare (with the exception of the lightning), especially as Mercenaries are one of our primary infantry swords. (We're also getting Navarre eventually who's class is Mercenary for this game.)

Clerics (and healers in general) have their movesets based upon promotions (because Staves are mostly used as items in the Fire Emblem games). Thus, Lissa is already doing the Cleric part as expected, in particular because she's one of the few characters who does have access to staves before promotion (the rest are our other healers + who the game counts as it's actual Lords AKA the twins). As a result of course, the moveset that the healers get are based upon the part they get when they promote and are able to do stuff other than healing (in Lissa's case, it's the axe infantry user which means she's our axe infantry rep).

Cavaliers tend to be either sword or lance reps: they generally don't have either weapon as a particular focus (to the point that the Paladin is one of the few Fates units who get a maximum of two A ranks in usable weapons, and is the only unit to be able claim that they have no main weapon in particular). Now here's where it gets interesting. Frederick and the Great Knights would probably have been the lance equivalent to the sword-wielding Cavaliers, but as that would have left the number of axes really low on the playable side (and on the enemy side, you would have had Lance-wielding Soldiers, Knights, Great Knights, and Peg. Knights, compared to just Axe-wielding Fighters and Wyvern Knights), so Great Knights were reworked into being axe wielders instead for variety's sake. The Cavalier and the Great Knight also mirrors the Christmas Cavalier archetype in terms of gameplay (whether you're using them or oppose them) by one being fast but not-so-strong and one being strong but not-so-fast).

Thus, you can say that the Cavaliers kept the sword part of their style, but had the lance part reworked into using an axe instead (and most importantly, had the Cavalier class split into two types, one that wielded the sword as one half, and one that wielded the lance, later changed into an axe, as the other half).

My point was not that they needed to include these things, or to second guess design decisions I generally agree with.  My point was that we are missing the following elements of 'standard' FE:

1. Knight/General

2. A magic using infantry Cleric, since traditionally, Clerics promote to magic users, not Axe/Bow users

3. An Axe using Fighter.  Lissa covers most of this moveset, but uses her staff in some attacks, which an actual Fighter wouldn't be able to do.

4. A Lance using Cavalier.  Paladins use swords in this game, and Great Knights got the one weapon that generally sets them apart from the other cavalry classes.

5. A Mercenary.  We instead have two Lords using a Mercenary inspired moveset, and a Myrmidon pretending he's a Mercenary (Navarre is the basis for the Myrmidon class, and is generally associated with that class line/fighting style over his original Mercenary class).

There are other potential classes missing (Bow Knights, Soldiers, Pirates), but they're not consistently available to the point I'd consider them 'standard' FE, and Soldier is showing up as DLC anyways (Oboro).

Honestly speaking, 1, 2, and 3 are the only major 'holes'.  4 is odd mostly because the Cavalier class is the standard introduction to playable lances, and 5 is partly my bias because I like the actual Mercenary/Hero class line (I actually wouldn't like Ike as a sole Mercenary rep any more than Chrom/Lucina, since he's also a Lord, though he's at least more or less associated with the Mercenary class).

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1 minute ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

My point was not that they needed to include these things, or to second guess design decisions I generally agree with.  My point was that we are missing the following elements of 'standard' FE:

1. Knight/General

2. A magic using infantry Cleric, since traditionally, Clerics promote to magic users, not Axe/Bow users

3. An Axe using Fighter.  Lissa covers most of this moveset, but uses her staff in some attacks, which an actual Fighter wouldn't be able to do.

4. A Lance using Cavalier.  Paladins use swords in this game, and Great Knights got the one weapon that generally sets them apart from the other cavalry classes.

5. A Mercenary.  We instead have two Lords using a Mercenary inspired moveset, and a Myrmidon pretending he's a Mercenary (Navarre is the basis for the Myrmidon class, and is generally associated with that class line/fighting style over his original Mercenary class).

There are other potential classes missing (Bow Knights, Soldiers, Pirates), but they're not consistently available to the point I'd consider them 'standard' FE, and Soldier is showing up as DLC anyways (Oboro).

Honestly speaking, 1, 2, and 3 are the only major 'holes'.  4 is odd mostly because the Cavalier class is the standard introduction to playable lances, and 5 is partly my bias because I like the actual Mercenary/Hero class line (I actually wouldn't like Ike as a sole Mercenary rep any more than Chrom/Lucina, since he's also a Lord, though he's at least more or less associated with the Mercenary class).

1. I'll give you this as it's very odd that we don't have a playable Knight/General, though Frederick is a mobile version of it for now.

2. A magic-using infantry cleric wouldn't be that different from infantry mages though. Just slap Robin's moveset on them and add the ability to use staves and call it a day.

3. Lissa only uses her staff in her Musou attack. The rest is all axe.

4. And again, Great Knights was likely going to use a lance before they found out they had very few axe users and made the change.

5. And again, Chrom and Lucina are our Mercenaries due to their fighting style. I do not disagree on you regarding Navarre but it's none-the-less a cool shoutout to the original Fire Emblem.

Actually, Ryoma's moveset was probably used for both Mercenaries and Myrmidons because his moveset is relatively fast and relatively strong-looking without being overly distinct in either direction. If Myrmidons and Mercenaries were split, then we'd probably see Mercenaries use a simplified version of Chrom's moveset while Myrmidons would use a simplified version of Navarre's.

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7 minutes ago, Folt said:

3. Lissa only uses her staff in her Musou attack. The rest is all axe.

She uses it in a charge attack too, which is actually kind of odd. If there weren't those one or two extra attacks they easily could have added a standard fighter and used the same moveset for both.

Regarding the generic mercenaries and myrmidons, aren't they just pallet swaps with name changes, like the other Hoshido/Nohr variants?

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Just now, NeonZ said:

She uses it in a charge attack too, which is actually kind of odd. If there weren't those one or two extra attacks they easily could have added a standard fighter and used the same moveset for both.

Regarding the generic mercenaries and myrmidons, aren't they just pallet swaps with name changes, like the other Hoshido/Nohr variants?

If it's the one I think you're talking about, nope. That is actually the axe handle.

And yes, they are. But they use Ryoma's moveset specifically because Ryoma's moveset is strong, but not overly so, and it's fast, but not particularly fast, in contrast to the other sword movesets.

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1 hour ago, Folt said:

1. I'll give you this as it's very odd that we don't have a playable Knight/General, though Frederick is a mobile version of it for now.

2. A magic-using infantry cleric wouldn't be that different from infantry mages though. Just slap Robin's moveset on them and add the ability to use staves and call it a day.

3. Lissa only uses her staff in her Musou attack. The rest is all axe.

4. And again, Great Knights was likely going to use a lance before they found out they had very few axe users and made the change.

5. And again, Chrom and Lucina are our Mercenaries due to their fighting style. I do not disagree on you regarding Navarre but it's none-the-less a cool shoutout to the original Fire Emblem.

Actually, Ryoma's moveset was probably used for both Mercenaries and Myrmidons because his moveset is relatively fast and relatively strong-looking without being overly distinct in either direction. If Myrmidons and Mercenaries were split, then we'd probably see Mercenaries use a simplified version of Chrom's moveset while Myrmidons would use a simplified version of Navarre's.

2. Which is why it's odd that we don't have an infantry mage that can use staves before promotion.  Wrys, Lena or Maria would have been the options here (granted, this ignores the other constraints like time, coding, etc, but we're talking about what's missing).

3. I thought her C1 and C4 both used a staff, but checking them again it's the axe in both of them.  I'm not sure the more klutzy animations really work for most fighters though.  Arthur and Vaike are sort of clumsy, but Fighters in general, like Barst, don't seem like they would fall down after spinning too much, or accidentally let go of the axe to have it come crashing down.  Edit:  Amusingly, I think the moveset fits Awakening/Fates fighters fairly well, but not the ones from SD/NME and before.  Arthur/Vaike have a clumsiness to their character, and for Charlotte it would be feigned weakness.  I wonder if that was intentional on IS's part when designing those characters.

4. This is conjecture (albeit well-founded conjecture), and doesn't change the fact that even if it was originally intended, it is now a piece of 'standard' FE that is missing.

5.  I have, more or less, admitted this, and would be fine with a Mercenary class character that used Chrom's moveset.  That said, Chrom/Lucina's fighting style is not associated with the Mercenary class line, and most people looking at the moveset will think 'Oh, that's Chrom's style' not 'Oh, that's a Mercenary', because Chrom is a Lord with no other class associations.  Contrast Ryoma, who's moveset uses many of the animations of the Fates Swordmaster class, or Lyn/Navarre, who's moveset takes from the GBA Myrmidons and Lyn.  Those are recognizable for their class and the association the character has with the class, which Chrom and Lucina generally lack with regards to the Mercenary class (Ike with Chrom's moveset would admittedly bring that association).

Given the sword bias of the roster already, and the lack of distinction Mercenaries would bring with their fighting style, it's a good decision to not include the class for now, but it still means the class doesn't have proper representation.    Again, personal bias, you really aren't going to get me to budge on this.  We don't have a proper Mercenary/Hero, we have characters that use a similar fighting style.

Edited by YotsuMaboroshi
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1 minute ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

2. Which is why it's odd that we don't have an infantry mage that can use staves before promotion.  Wrys, Lena or Maria would have been the options here (granted, this ignores the other constraints like time, coding, etc, but we're talking about what's missing).

3. I thought her C1 and C4 both used a staff, but checking them again again it's the axe in both of them.  I'm not sure the more klutzy animations really work for most fighters though.  Arthur and Vaike are sort of clumsy, but Fighters in general, like Barst, don't seem like they would fall down after spinning too much, or accidentally let go of the axe to have it come crashing down.

4. This is conjecture (albeit well-founded conjecture), and doesn't change the fact that even if it was originally intended, it is now a piece of 'standard' FE that is missing.

5.  I have, more or less, admitted this, and would be fine with a Mercenary class character that used Chrom's moveset.  That said, Chrom/Lucina's fighting style is not associated with the Mercenary class line, and most people looking at the moveset will think 'Oh, that's Chrom's style' not 'Oh, that's a Mercenary', because Chrom is a Lord with no other class associations.  Contrast Ryoma, who's moveset uses many of the animations of the Fates Swordmaster class, or Lyn/Navarre, who's moveset takes from the GBA Myrmidons and Lyn.  Those are recognizable for their class and the association the character has with the class, which Chrom and Lucina generally lack with regards to the Mercenary class (Ike with Chrom's moveset would admittedly bring that association).

Given the sword bias of the roster already, and the lack of distinction Mercenaries would bring with their fighting style, it's a good decision to not include the class for now, but it still means the class doesn't have proper representation.    Again, personal bias, you really aren't going to get me to budge on this.  We don't have a proper Mercenary/Hero, we have characters that use a similar fighting style.

2. It's probably because none of the priests/clerics in Shadow Dragon are major characters when it comes down to it (Lena and Maria being mostly major in terms of being associated with another, more major character, but neither of those more major characters made the cut). The Priests, Monks, and Butler variants more or less fulfill this role, just on the enemy side. Besides that, it's also probably because a promoted Priest/Cleric in games before Awakening didn't really differ much from their more offensive counterparts (there was an attempt in the GBA games and the Tellius games to fix this by giving them light, but that didn't really matter very much in the grand scheme of things and it's certainly not applicable to any of the Shadow Dragon Priests/Clerics). Linde will essentially be the tome+staff on-foot magic user of the game once she is released.

3. Maybe not for Fighters/Warriors (though it's not too much a stretch to assume it with Arthur and Vaike), but the carelessness of her moves do bring to mind the Barbarian/Berserker class and how they generally sacrifice skill and protective abilities for being strong and just a little bit fast.

4. It is indeed conjecture, but as it is, that's how it likely ended up as. The split up also ensured that the Great Knight would get a unique promotion for their own as a generic enemy officer. Either way, the two were split off from each other when Great Knight was usually a promotion of the Cavalier.

5. Maybe so, but the implications are there. Chrom's and Lucina's fighting style is not described as something from Ylisse, but more as a veteran's style, which is what the mercenary class is usually depicted as. Ryoma is interesting. He does use animations from Fates-style Swordmasters, but only the ones where they wielded only one blade (as opposed to how they normally dual-wielded their blades), and he generally looks strong, but not too strong, and fast but not too fast, which makes his moveset a very good baseline for both Mercenaries and Myrmidons (which can explain why this game saw fit to merge them rather than keep them separate). The moveset that Lyn and Navarre uses actually seems to be mostly original (the GBA animations/strikes generally appears to be restricted to Lyn's Special attacks). It's actually more Fates!Samurai than Ryoma's moveset is, simply because it's a dual-wield moveset.

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35 minutes ago, Folt said:

The moveset that Lyn and Navarre uses actually seems to be mostly original (the GBA animations/strikes generally appears to be restricted to Lyn's Special attacks). It's actually more Fates!Samurai than Ryoma's moveset is, simply because it's a dual-wield moveset.

Just going to touch on this, as I'm not really going to argue the rest (everything's pretty much been said).  Lyn's C1 is based off of her regular attack before promotion, C2 is the standard Swordmaster attack from the GBA games, C3 appears to be based off of the GBA Myrmidon standard attack.  The afterimages only show up for crits, so it makes sense for them to only appear in Lyn's specials.

Ryoma's style is based off of Fates Swordmaster single sword animations, and he dual wields in his specials as a nod to the fact that some weapons in fates caused Swordmasters to dual wield (Samurai did not get this, IIRC, only Swordmasters).  Lyn is not automatically more Fates Swordmaster than Ryoma is just because it's a dual wield set, as the Fates Swordmaster does not give the impression of speed based sword play that GBA Myrmidons did.  Edit:  If anything, the dual-wield style Lyn uses feels more like GBA Assasins (as it's used mostly for finishing blows) than Fates Swordmaster, at least to me.

Edited by YotsuMaboroshi
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11 minutes ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

Just going to touch on this, as I'm not really going to argue the rest.  Lyn's C1 is based off of her regular attack before promotion, C2 is the standard Swordmaster attack from the GBA games, C3 appears to be based off of the GBA Myrmidon standard attack.  The afterimages only show up for crits, so it makes sense for them to only appear in Lyn's specials.

Very well, I will concede this.

 

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5 hours ago, Folt said:

If it's the one I think you're talking about, nope. That is actually the axe handle.

And yes, they are. But they use Ryoma's moveset specifically because Ryoma's moveset is strong, but not overly so, and it's fast, but not particularly fast, in contrast to the other sword movesets.

It was her C4 I was thinking about, but looking at it now she actually isn't holding anything, just raising both hands forward with open palms and then lightning hits the axe that she had thrown. Still makes it kind of weird though. With a few tweaks they could have made an axe moveset that could have been shared with a standard warrior.

 

3 hours ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

Just going to touch on this, as I'm not really going to argue the rest (everything's pretty much been said).  Lyn's C1 is based off of her regular attack before promotion, C2 is the standard Swordmaster attack from the GBA games, C3 appears to be based off of the GBA Myrmidon standard attack.  The afterimages only show up for crits, so it makes sense for them to only appear in Lyn's specials.

The only one out of those that's really close is C1. Lyn's C2 has her spinning backwards while striking and falling back, while the animation you're mentioning that is forward rush followed by a straight upwards strike, with the spinning back only coming up after the attack is done. The C2 also has two follow ups, one which uses dual wielding and another a bunch of X slashes. Same goes to the C3, I can see why you associated it with that due to all the horizontal spinning, but the spinning part in the GBA's myrmidon attack is after the strike, when returning to place, and Lyn's C3 also automatically finishes with a strike using the 2nd sword which clearly has nothing to do with the original animation.

Edited by NeonZ
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2 hours ago, NeonZ said:

The only one out of those that's really close is C1. Lyn's C2 has her spinning backwards while striking and falling back, while the animation you're mentioning that is forward rush followed by a straight upwards strike, with the spinning back only coming up after the attack is done. The C2 also has two follow ups, one which uses dual wielding and another a bunch of X slashes. Same goes to the C3, I can see why you associated it with that due to all the horizontal spinning, but the spinning part in the GBA's myrmidon attack is after the strike, when returning to place, and Lyn's C3 also automatically finishes with a strike using the 2nd sword which clearly has nothing to do with the original animation.

I did actually check all of the animations before posting that.

Lyn's C2 is an rising forward strike that ends in the air.  As far as I can tell, she does not spin before striking and jumping.  If she is spinning, it's happening much, much faster than any of her other spinning attacks (C3 and C5).  The main difference between her strike and the GBA Swordmaster strike is that she leads with her sword hand, while GBA Swordmasters hold their sword away from their opponents. 

Aerial follow ups are generally considered separate from Charge attacks and the Regular string in musou games, though the distinction is somewhat less meaningful here since there's no jump button.  Regardless, their presence doesn't lessen the fact that Lyn's C2 is the same strike that GBA Swordmasters used, Lyn just has the option to continue attacking immediately afterwards.

For the C3, I said it was based on the Myrmidon animation, not that it was the same.  Myrms in GBA attack by turning in the opposite direction, then spinning forward, and end kneeling with their sword pointed away from the enemy (see this video that took me entirely too long to find:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhmVmZYzGyE).  The myrm then jumps back into their starting position, facing the enemy.  The animation has them spin forward right before the strike, though the strike itself appears to hit downward, judging by the blur, rather than upward like you would expect the spin to hit.  This sort of implies that the Myrm somehow reversed the momentum of the slice and their spin, which looks awkward to in 3d, to say the least.  It seems likely that the initial spin became Lyn's spinning strike forward, and the downward slash became the Mani Katti finisher.

As far as other attacks go, her C5 also uses a similar spinning strike and Mani Katti follow-up as the C3 (each hop from mashing X is a spin, though in the opposite direction of the C3), and C6 ends with her kneeling and facing away from the enemy, much like the Myrm attack linked above.

Overall, given that they had around 4 animations for standard Myrmidons/Swordmasters from GBA, plus whatever additional animations Lyn had, I think they did a fairly good job conveying the feel of the class with Lyn's moveset and showing a sword style that uses the speed of the sword to cut, rather than the power of the swing.  Yes, there are additions and embelishments, but that's to be expected from a musou game, given the limitations of the original source.  It seems fairly clear that they were looking at the GBA sprite work while working on Lyn, and tried to capture that feel with her attacks.

 

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7 hours ago, NeonZ said:

It was her C4 I was thinking about, but looking at it now she actually isn't holding anything, just raising both hands forward with open palms and then lightning hits the axe that she had thrown. Still makes it kind of weird though. With a few tweaks they could have made an axe moveset that could have been shared with a standard warrior.

Yeah. That's the one I was thinking about. I think that's just her looking "ohmigod, where's mah axe!" as lightning conveniently strikes in front of her.

5 hours ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

I did actually check all of the animations before posting that.

Lyn's C2 is an rising forward strike that ends in the air.  As far as I can tell, she does not spin before striking and jumping.  If she is spinning, it's happening much, much faster than any of her other spinning attacks (C3 and C5).  The main difference between her strike and the GBA Swordmaster strike is that she leads with her sword hand, while GBA Swordmasters hold their sword away from their opponents. 

Aerial follow ups are generally considered separate from Charge attacks and the Regular string in musou games, though the distinction is somewhat less meaningful here since there's no jump button.  Regardless, their presence doesn't lessen the fact that Lyn's C2 is the same strike that GBA Swordmasters used, Lyn just has the option to continue attacking immediately afterwards.

For the C3, I said it was based on the Myrmidon animation, not that it was the same.  Myrms in GBA attack by turning in the opposite direction, then spinning forward, and end kneeling with their sword pointed away from the enemy (see this video that took me entirely too long to find:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhmVmZYzGyE).  The myrm then jumps back into their starting position, facing the enemy.  The animation has them spin forward right before the strike, though the strike itself appears to hit downward, judging by the blur, rather than upward like you would expect the spin to hit.  This sort of implies that the Myrm somehow reversed the momentum of the slice and their spin, which looks awkward to in 3d, to say the least.  It seems likely that the initial spin became Lyn's spinning strike forward, and the downward slash became the Mani Katti finisher.

As far as other attacks go, her C5 also uses a similar spinning strike and Mani Katti follow-up as the C3 (each hop from mashing X is a spin, though in the opposite direction of the C3), and C6 ends with her kneeling and facing away from the enemy, much like the Myrm attack linked above.

Overall, given that they had around 4 animations for standard Myrmidons/Swordmasters from GBA, plus whatever additional animations Lyn had, I think they did a fairly good job conveying the feel of the class with Lyn's moveset and showing a sword style that uses the speed of the sword to cut, rather than the power of the swing.  Yes, there are additions and embelishments, but that's to be expected from a musou game, given the limitations of the original source.  It seems fairly clear that they were looking at the GBA sprite work while working on Lyn, and tried to capture that feel with her attacks.

 

Actually, I think I see what he means. The C3 is way too embellished to let us be certain of whether or not it's a shout-out to GBA Myrmidons, and the last hit basically has her smash the Mani Katti into the ground which isn't exactly the sort of thing I'd associate with either Lyn or the GBA Myrmidons. Same with the C5. Her C2 is also not as similiar to the Swordmaster upward strike as you think it is because she holds the blade in a reverse grip as she jumps up. The regular moveset does not appear to be inspired by the GBA Myrmidons as you're saying.

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11 hours ago, NeonZ said:

It was her C4 I was thinking about, but looking at it now she actually isn't holding anything, just raising both hands forward with open palms and then lightning hits the axe that she had thrown. Still makes it kind of weird though. With a few tweaks they could have made an axe moveset that could have been shared with a standard warrior.

I thought it was a bolt axe to be honest.

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4 hours ago, Folt said:

Actually, I think I see what he means. The C3 is way too embellished to let us be certain of whether or not it's a shout-out to GBA Myrmidons, and the last hit basically has her smash the Mani Katti into the ground which isn't exactly the sort of thing I'd associate with either Lyn or the GBA Myrmidons. Same with the C5. Her C2 is also not as similiar to the Swordmaster upward strike as you think it is because she holds the blade in a reverse grip as she jumps up. The regular moveset does not appear to be inspired by the GBA Myrmidons as you're saying.

We're going to have to agree to disagree then.  It's embellished, but to me it looks very inspired by the GBA Myrmidon animation, not any other class in FE, despite being dual-wield.

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7 minutes ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree then.  It's embellished, but to me it looks very inspired by the GBA Myrmidon animation, not any other class in FE, despite being dual-wield.

It really isn't. Then again, GBA Myrmidon was essentially inspired by Navarre anyways.

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