Radiant Dawn Supports?

[omegaxis1]

9 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Isn't Daein far more to blame for their loss and subjugation then Ike? Lets remember that Daein started an unjust war of aggression, oppressed Crimea for a year and actively gathered Laguz to torture to death. Its not hard to see why no nation on Tellius would mind them not having their own country anymore after what they did. 

That's another thing. We're so quick to point fingers at Ike because of how Radiant Dawn shows Daein suffering, but it was Daein that started everything in the events of Path of Radiance. Many soldiers followed Ashnard willingly, and there didn't seem to be a big sign that Daein's people were actually being oppressed either, though I could be wrong and missed it. So by all regards, the people of Daein were all okay with Ashnard invading a country for no reason, killing many innocent people and most of the royal family, and there is no excuse for what happened to the laguz there.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's another thing. We're so quick to point fingers at Ike because of how Radiant Dawn shows Daein suffering, but it was Daein that started everything in the events of Path of Radiance. Many soldiers followed Ashnard willingly, and there didn't seem to be a big sign that Daein's people were actually being oppressed either, though I could be wrong and missed it. So by all regards, the people of Daein were all okay with Ashnard invading a country for no reason, killing many innocent people and most of the royal family, and there is no excuse for what happened to the laguz there.

Okay this is getting off topic but I'm going to say this.

Daein had suffered what they believed to be a plague that wiped out a lot of people before Ashnard took over. They believed said plague got the royal family.

Also this is a monarchy. It doesn't usually matter what the general populace or the standard soldiers in the military want. Their king tells them to go invade Crimea, they follow orders. Only high ups knew about what was happening to the laguz and the Daein people really got the short end of the stick here, don't blame them for the choices of their leaders. That's like saying the people of Begnion deserve horrible subjugation under Gallia because the Senate were pieces of crap. Which isn't a fair comparison either because at least Begnion had two options to follow - Sanaki or the Senate. Daein just had their king. Who was a BAD PERSON no doubt but the largely innocent of this people of Daein shouldn't have to suffer like they did for it.

But I digress, this is about supports you would like to see and personally I would like to see Micaiah bring this up to Ike and Elincia in a conversation somewhere. No finger pointing or apologies but a simple acknowledgement.

[Icelerate]

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Would Ashnard be dead? This guy is insane, sure, but he's also very cunning. Liberating Crimea would not have actually stopped Ashnard. He would just amount another invasion. His goal was to create a continent wide war. This guy has no fear of the possibility of unleashing a dark god that would result in everything being destroyed. Ashnard is still king, and Daein is said to be very powerful as a nation. 

Where does it say that Ike actually destroyed homes? And again, why should Ike be held accountable on handing the country to Begnion? He isn't a king or royalty in the slightest, so he has no control over Daein. Have you completely missed the point that no other nation could take over? Begnion was the only nation with the power ad resources, and had the biggest hand in defeating Daein. By what right did Ike have to stop Begnion in taking Daein? 

Ashnard would be killed in Mellior and lose most of his army and elite forces. 

He was made a lord in PoR before the invasion of Daein and outranked anyone from Begnion when he "liberated" Daein. I'm sure putting Tauroneo in charge of Daein's state of affairs makes way more sense just like Ephraim allowed Duessel to do so. Both the narrator of PoR and Micaiah have attributed some of the damage to Daein to Ike's army. 

 

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Okay this is getting off topic but I'm going to say this.

Daein had suffered what they believed to be a plague that wiped out a lot of people before Ashnard took over. They believed said plague got the royal family.

Also this is a monarchy. It doesn't usually matter what the general populace or the standard soldiers in the military want. Their king tells them to go invade Crimea, they follow orders. Only high ups knew about what was happening to the laguz and the Daein people really got the short end of the stick here, don't blame them for the choices of their leaders. That's like saying the people of Begnion deserve horrible subjugation under Gallia because the Senate were pieces of crap. Which isn't a fair comparison either because at least Begnion had two options to follow - Sanaki or the Senate. Daein just had their king. Who was a BAD PERSON no doubt but the largely innocent of this people of Daein shouldn't have to suffer like they did for it.

But I digress, this is about supports you would like to see and personally I would like to see Micaiah bring this up to Ike and Elincia in a conversation somewhere. No finger pointing or apologies but a simple acknowledgement.

Sorry. You're right, this isn't the place to be arguing this. 

[omegaxis1]

One Support I would want to see that would be interesting is Naesala and Tibarn. Tibarn always threatens to murder the raven in both games, but never goes through with it. I would like to see how their supports go, maybe even have a case where they could understand they can't be friends, but they don't see each other as enemies.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Sorry. You're right, this isn't the place to be arguing this. 

It's alright! I would enjoy reading about this in another thread though :)

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

One Support I would want to see that would be interesting is Naesala and Tibarn. Tibarn always threatens to murder the raven in both games, but never goes through with it. I would like to see how their supports go, maybe even have a case where they could understand they can't be friends, but they don't see each other as enemies.

That one is interesting and one I hadn't considered. Of course the main reason Naesala does what he does is because of the blood pact, correct? But Naesala never tells the others this so that could be really fun. I don't ever see those two being friends.... but shaky allies maybe.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

It's alright! I would enjoy reading about this in another thread though :)

That one is interesting and one I hadn't considered. Of course the main reason Naesala does what he does is because of the blood pact, correct? But Naesala never tells the others this so that could be really fun. I don't ever see those two being friends.... but shaky allies maybe.

That's why I said they accept they can't be friends. Too much happened between them. They're like... Thor and Loki from the MCU. They are allies when necessary, but they have too much bad blood to truly reconcile. 

Tibarn in Radiant Dawn would likely demand why Naesala betrayed them, and Naesala tries to play it cool and just say that it doesn't matter because he did betray them. Could have their support feature some other characters, and eventually, Naesala confesses to Tibarn that he had no choice but to obey Begnion, as the Blood Contract ensured their loyalty. If Naesala didn't help Begnion, then by the war's end, even if they tried as fast as they could, would likely result in Naesala losing all his people forever. And also points out this is how Naesala even became king in the first place, because his family died from the Blood Contract.

Tibarn would likely understand, but his people were slaughtered too and cannot forgive Naesala nonetheless, but he accepts that the position was something that Tibarn couldn't imagine. 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's why I said they accept they can't be friends. Too much happened between them. They're like... Thor and Loki from the MCU. They are allies when necessary, but they have too much bad blood to truly reconcile. 

Tibarn in Radiant Dawn would likely demand why Naesala betrayed them, and Naesala tries to play it cool and just say that it doesn't matter because he did betray them. Could have their support feature some other characters, and eventually, Naesala confesses to Tibarn that he had no choice but to obey Begnion, as the Blood Contract ensured their loyalty. If Naesala didn't help Begnion, then by the war's end, even if they tried as fast as they could, would likely result in Naesala losing all his people forever. And also points out this is how Naesala even became king in the first place, because his family died from the Blood Contract.

Tibarn would likely understand, but his people were slaughtered too and cannot forgive Naesala nonetheless, but he accepts that the position was something that Tibarn couldn't imagine. 

Yeah, that pretty much wraps it up in a nutshell.

On that same note, and someone mentioned this earlier, a Naesala and Micaiah support would be interesting too. They had very similar situations and I feel like they could learn a lot from each other. Naesala handled his blood pact situation close to the same way Micaiah did but he had it hanging over his head for far longer and so he had learned ways around his that Micaiah didn't have time to do.

[omegaxis1]

56 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Yeah, that pretty much wraps it up in a nutshell.

On that same note, and someone mentioned this earlier, a Naesala and Micaiah support would be interesting too. They had very similar situations and I feel like they could learn a lot from each other. Naesala handled his blood pact situation close to the same way Micaiah did but he had it hanging over his head for far longer and so he had learned ways around his that Micaiah didn't have time to do.

Micaiah and Naesala would have to converse with the blood pact, and Micaiah wants to understand how he was able to endure it for years. Naesala doesn't want to talk about it, and just tries to brush her off. That's their C support. B would be where Micaiah continues to pester him, and even talking about how hard it was for her to endure the weight of protecting the people of Daein from the Blood Pact that she had to do cruel things, and feels like it was tearing her apart. Naesala shows a slight sign of empathy and says that the these things make one make the harshest decisions and can cost them everything, before leaving again.

A support would be where Naesala approaches Micaiah and finally decides to talk about his side. He talks about how when he learned of the blood pact, he was angered that his father caused the deaths of their people and family, and then was always overcome with fear of losing his people. He wanted to escape from it many times, but the duties of being their king means to endure as much hardship as possible for their sakes. And he says that when you truly resolve yourself to protect your people, you find yourself having the strength to commit any sin imaginable if it means saving them. And now that he's free of the blood contract, he feels so much at peace like he could die happy, though quickly adds that he doesn't want to die, though Tibarn and many others would likely get him, but when that time comes, he'll accept it. Micaiah says that despite the many wrongs he had done, he's done many good things as well, and is sure that they'll be able to atone for their sins eventually.

[Icelerate]

14 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Isn't Daein far more to blame for their loss and subjugation then Ike? Lets remember that Daein started an unjust war of aggression, oppressed Crimea for a year and actively gathered Laguz to torture to death. Its not hard to see why no nation on Tellius would mind them not having their own country anymore after what they did. 

Not the ordinary Daein citizen but yes Ashnard and his supporters are to blame as well. Though they don't deserve the blame more than Ike and the Senate. That's like saying the American government is to blame for ISIS attacks in USA, far more than ISIS themselves, due to their invasion of Iraq. 

14 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's another thing. We're so quick to point fingers at Ike because of how Radiant Dawn shows Daein suffering, but it was Daein that started everything in the events of Path of Radiance. Many soldiers followed Ashnard willingly, and there didn't seem to be a big sign that Daein's people were actually being oppressed either, though I could be wrong and missed it. So by all regards, the people of Daein were all okay with Ashnard invading a country for no reason, killing many innocent people and most of the royal family, and there is no excuse for what happened to the laguz there.

1

In chapter 21, the Daein priests said they opposed Ashnard and that many in Daein oppose Ashnard as well. Jarrod even says Fiona made a wise choice not to support Ashnard and it's not like she was stripped of her position by Ashnard, let alone imprisoned/killed. Very few dictators would tolerate this behaviour. If Ashnard can tolerate a difference of opinion then he's probably not that bad of a ruler so why would the ordinary Daein citizen rebel against him? The Laguz experiments were a secret affair much like the Holocaust. On the other hand, Ike's invasion destroys a lot of infrastructure and then hands the country to a government far worse than Ashnard. Any Daein citizen with common sense would see Ike being far worse than Ashnard if we go by observable actions alone. 

Daein's invasion of Crimea did cause a lot of damage and oppression but it wasn't nearly as bad as Ike's invasion and subsequent Begnion occupation. Seriously, did Crimea look this messed up when Ashnard invaded and occupied it? 

Micaiah: During the war, I spent a lot of time with the people of Daein while I was waiting for you to return. After we lost the war, all our cities and towns had been reduced to ruins. We had to help each other to cope. We supported and comforted each other. That’s how we survived.

Sothe: You never mentioned this before.

Micaiah: I’ve been secluded so long, I had no idea people were so strong… and kind. No one knew who I was, but they helped me because I was from Daein. They were so… loving. They were my friends.

I'm starting to dislike Ike when we look at his ending where he just runs away despite being part of the problem. What makes it worse is that he was originally a Daein citizen and told Micaiah and Sothe to return to Daein to rebuild the country. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Icelerate

[Interdimensional Observer]

17 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I'm starting to dislike Ike when we look at his ending where he just runs away despite being part of the problem. What makes it worse is that he was originally a Daein citizen and told Micaiah and Sothe to return to Daein to rebuild the country. 

Ike has Daein parents (his father never said it though), but was born in Gallia, and spent the years of his childhood he can remember in Crimea. He never stepped foot in Daein until he came to defeat Ashnard. He really isn't Daein after all. Crimea is more his homeland, just as Miccy's is Daein, when she should be the star of Begnion.

[Icelerate]

29 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ike has Daein parents (his father never said it though), but was born in Gallia, and spent the years of his childhood he can remember in Crimea. He never stepped foot in Daein until he came to defeat Ashnard. He really isn't Daein after all. Crimea is more his homeland, just as Miccy's is Daein, when she should be the star of Begnion.

Well, at least Miccy ended up benefitting Begnion and Crimea by establishing peaceful relations which would logically end up increasing trade, thus improving the prosperity of all three countries. So she did make an effort to redeem herself in the end even if one doesn't believe she deserves redemption for killing thousands of Begnion and Crimean soldiers. 

[Icelerate]

On 11/2/2017 at 2:55 PM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I never really used Panne, didn't feel the need. But I really like Shinon, I find him hilarious (which is probably odd since I can't stand Soren) and his conversation with Gatrie about Lyre is one of the best imo.

As for Nailah and Rafiel I am perfectly okay with this. In fact this makes me quite happy. Go Rafiel!

So when Shinon is being rude it is hilarious but when Soren does it, you hate him? Just curious, why you like Shinon but not Soren? 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

13 hours ago, Icelerate said:

So when Shinon is being rude it is hilarious but when Soren does it, you hate him? Just curious, why you like Shinon but not Soren? 

There are a few reasons.

1: Shinon is a jerk and the game makes no attempts to excuse this or brush it off like they do with Soren

2: He has far less screentime, giving the player less time to really get annoyed with him like with Soren

3: He isn't treated as the GM's biggest asset apart from Ike and other characters aren't changed so Shinon doesn't have to struggle against them

4: He's a monster in battle. Since I can feel it coming, in RD. I haven't played PoR. He's a monster in battle in RD

So yeah, Shinon's a massive jerk and a racist, but he's far more enjoyable than Soren.

[omegaxis1]

18 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

There are a few reasons.

1: Shinon is a jerk and the game makes no attempts to excuse this or brush it off like they do with Soren

2: He has far less screentime, giving the player less time to really get annoyed with him like with Soren

3: He isn't treated as the GM's biggest asset apart from Ike and other characters aren't changed so Shinon doesn't have to struggle against them

4: He's a monster in battle. Since I can feel it coming, in RD. I haven't played PoR. He's a monster in battle in RD

So yeah, Shinon's a massive jerk and a racist, but he's far more enjoyable than Soren.

I mean, I get why Soren is like how he is. But when Shinon does it, its cause he's an asshole, and he doesn't even try to deny it. He knows it, and he accepts it. Soren does it more for vengeful reasons. They mistreated him, so he mistreats them back.

But here's the biggest issue:

Soren is hardly ever open to everyone. He's only willing to show his weakness to one person, and that's Ike. Shinon doesn't show his weakness often, but we've seen his kinder self with other people far more often than Soren in my opinion. Shinon is good friends with Gatrie, has some respects Tatiana, trains Rolf, and highly looks up to Greil. Soren? He's just got the manboner for Ike. I mean, I don't hate Soren, but let's face it, the guy is too Ike-dedicated to be appreciated enough for my tastes.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

On 11/8/2017 at 9:46 AM, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, I get why Soren is like how he is. But when Shinon does it, its cause he's an asshole, and he doesn't even try to deny it. He knows it, and he accepts it. Soren does it more for vengeful reasons. They mistreated him, so he mistreats them back.

But here's the biggest issue:

Soren is hardly ever open to everyone. He's only willing to show his weakness to one person, and that's Ike. Shinon doesn't show his weakness often, but we've seen his kinder self with other people far more often than Soren in my opinion. Shinon is good friends with Gatrie, has some respects Tatiana, trains Rolf, and highly looks up to Greil. Soren? He's just got the manboner for Ike. I mean, I don't hate Soren, but let's face it, the guy is too Ike-dedicated to be appreciated enough for my tastes.

I admit Shinon is an asshole and I would hate to know him in real life, but to watch he's extremely fun. Supports for Shinon could be really interesting too, to help develop his character more. He's a jerk and he knows it, he has issues and he knows it, so it would be nice to see other characters pull him out of that (or try) and his reactions to that. Gatrie would be a good one but I personally think we should see more Shinon and Ike conversations than we do. I would also like to see Shinon have more conversations with the Laguz (maybe Kyza, Lyre, Lethe, Mordecai, and Ranulf) to see if his attitude might slowly change over the course of those interactions.... or if he gets his face mauled. Either way xD

[omegaxis1]

On 11/12/2017 at 2:08 PM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I admit Shinon is an asshole and I would hate to know him in real life, but to watch he's extremely fun. Supports for Shinon could be really interesting too, to help develop his character more. He's a jerk and he knows it, he has issues and he knows it, so it would be nice to see other characters pull him out of that (or try) and his reactions to that. Gatrie would be a good one but I personally think we should see more Shinon and Ike conversations than we do. I would also like to see Shinon have more conversations with the Laguz (maybe Kyza, Lyre, Lethe, Mordecai, and Ranulf) to see if his attitude might slowly change over the course of those interactions.... or if he gets his face mauled. Either way xD

Oh of course. I would never have a friend that's racist and an asshole, but his witty retorts and kernels of kindness helps alleviate him enough from a viewer's perspective. I do think that there should have been some supports with him and Gatrie that could have him try to improve. However, Shinon strikes me as the guy that won't change no matter what, like he's proud of who he is. So he'll always have cases where he butts heads with laguz.

[Etrurian emperor]

The big problem with Shinon for me is that the balance is still heavily tilted to the extremely negative side of the spectrum. Being nice to Rolf just isn't enough to redeem someone who acts like a complete scumbag to any other person. Its just one good action that has to compete with him being a racist, a drunk, a petty jerk and a traitor for every other scene he has. 
And its Rolf. Being a decent human being to a kid who's always incredibly nice and sensitive isn't very hard. It would be much more impressive if Shinon ever acted decently to someone he doesn't like such as Ike or a Laguz.  

I think that despite his unpleasantness Soren still got some noble qualities like loyalty and while his ideas are immoral he rarely, if ever gets to act on them because following Ike is more important to him. This ensures he's ultimately less unpleasant then Shinon because a single decision from Ike is enough for Soren to swallow his unpleasantness, hold his tongue and work for the common good. 

I do think the two have good chemistry. They should be natural allies but its interesting that they have such low opinions of each other. 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

17 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Oh of course. I would never have a friend that's racist and an asshole, but his witty retorts and kernels of kindness helps alleviate him enough from a viewer's perspective. I do think that there should have been some supports with him and Gatrie that could have him try to improve. However, Shinon strikes me as the guy that won't change no matter what, like he's proud of who he is. So he'll always have cases where he butts heads with laguz.

Hey that's fine with me, I'm perfectly okay with him butting heads with laguz and getting kicked around a little bit xD That's one of the great things about a character like Shinon, he's entertaining whether he's sassing or getting his butt kicked.

15 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The big problem with Shinon for me is that the balance is still heavily tilted to the extremely negative side of the spectrum. Being nice to Rolf just isn't enough to redeem someone who acts like a complete scumbag to any other person. Its just one good action that has to compete with him being a racist, a drunk, a petty jerk and a traitor for every other scene he has. 
And its Rolf. Being a decent human being to a kid who's always incredibly nice and sensitive isn't very hard. It would be much more impressive if Shinon ever acted decently to someone he doesn't like such as Ike or a Laguz.  

I think that despite his unpleasantness Soren still got some noble qualities like loyalty and while his ideas are immoral he rarely, if ever gets to act on them because following Ike is more important to him. This ensures he's ultimately less unpleasant then Shinon because a single decision from Ike is enough for Soren to swallow his unpleasantness, hold his tongue and work for the common good. 

I do think the two have good chemistry. They should be natural allies but its interesting that they have such low opinions of each other. 

That's true, but to be fair Shinon is meant to be a jerk to Ike. That's like, his whole character so far in PoR (which I am finally able to play!) xD Besides, Shinon has the advantage of not being on screen much so I don't have time to get annoyed with him like with certain other characters.