Why wasn't Lilina the leader of the army?

[Icelerate]

Doesn't Ostia outrank Pherae? 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Ostia outrank Pherae, but by the time of FE6, Pherae is the only functional territory of the Lycian League Army

The choice to use Roy as the leader of the Army is also pragmatic. Would you choose Lilina who literally does nothing, or Roy who led the Ostia takeover?

Edited November 2, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Hardin]

Hector asked Roy to lead the Lycian Army before he died. 

Quote

 

Hector:
“Roy…go to Ostia…! …You must…lead what is left of the Lycia Alliance Army…in my place…”

Roy:
“Me…? But…”

Hector:
“Don’t worry… In Ostia..we have a weapon…that is effective against the Dragons…”

Roy:
“A weapon…?”

Hector:
“I have already told Lilina where it is hidden… Take care of her, too… She…may seem strong…but she is still a child… Give her your support…”

 

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

She is but an uneducated damsel. Roy the insecure but talented 15/16 year old entrusted by Hector is far superior to this perky mage girl. Merit has a place in Lycian society alongside rank, particularly in crisis.

Now what I'd really like in FE would be a main character who has to serve a baby/enfeebled/mediocre ruler. Kind of like Pelleas in RD, but not with a puppet master pulling the strings in the background. Just an incompetent ruler whom our lord must serve, and serves regardless of the difficulties such a master brings.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[Icelerate]

How old are Lilina and Roy? 

[ping]

Both 15, apparently.

[Magical Glace]

12 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

How old are Lilina and Roy? 

15.

 

Anyway, Lilina spent a while captured, and while she was busy stuck in a castle Roy was proving himself pretty competent.  Don't fix what isn't broken, and Roy in charge clearly wasn't.

[ping]

Actually, does Ostia officially outrank Pherae? It's apparently the most powerful Lycian county (or whatever the correct term would be), but does the Marquess of Ostia really rank higher in the League than the other Marquesses?

[SullyMcGully]

It's sexism! Boycott IS!

In all fairness, from a medieval standpoint, most armies would be more inspired if there were a strong man leading them. Which makes one wonder why an actual leader with military experience wasn't chosen. Marcus or Barth would be nice candidates.

[Interdimensional Observer]

17 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

In all fairness, from a medieval standpoint, most armies would be more inspired if there were a strong man leading them. Which makes one wonder why an actual leader with military experience wasn't chosen. Marcus or Barth would be nice candidates.

Well Eliwood could have, but he is by pure chance sick at the time. He could have taken out Zephiel if he had the vigor and Durandal/Maltet.

Marcus is too old, and FE is modern anime medieval, not true medieval.

You'd expect Pherae to be on the forefront of Bern foreign policy though. Since it rests on the border with the mountain kingdom and is thus highly vulnerable to it and likely economically dependent on trade to and fro Bern. Ostia rests on the Etrurian border and probably has a similar role derived from that.

 

31 minutes ago, ping said:

Actually, does Ostia officially outrank Pherae? It's apparently the most powerful Lycian county (or whatever the correct term would be), but does the Marquess of Ostia really rank higher in the League than the other Marquesses?

I thought all the marquesses were equal legally. Sure differences in political, economic, and social power naturally arise, but I thought they were in principle coequals. Is there any writing supporting this?

[Rezzy]

1 hour ago, SullyMcGully said:

It's sexism! Boycott IS!

In all fairness, from a medieval standpoint, most armies would be more inspired if there were a strong man leading them. Which makes one wonder why an actual leader with military experience wasn't chosen. Marcus or Barth would be nice candidates.

Marcus and Barth aren't noble, or at least very high ranking ones.  They are capable knights, but not a figure the people can rally behind.  Roy is the son of a Marquis and part of the ruling class.  Although @Claudius I or @blah the Prussian could probably put it more eloquently than I could.  A low ranking, all-things-considered knight might be able to serve well, but unless they had royal/noble blood it would be hard for them to take charge without a big power struggle, and Lycia couldn't afford that.

[Acacia Sgt]

I would think the reason is simply a combination of Hector appointing Roy leader on the spot, and then later on having proved himself capable. As for Lilina not being appointed, well, could be that she just probably was just not educated on that front.

2 hours ago, ping said:

Actually, does Ostia officially outrank Pherae? It's apparently the most powerful Lycian county (or whatever the correct term would be), but does the Marquess of Ostia really rank higher in the League than the other Marquesses?

Ostia is the head of the Lycian League, so yes, they would in theory outrank all the other Lycian territories. But the Lycian territories are all autonomous to a degree.

[Icelerate]

3 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Marcus and Barth aren't noble, or at least very high ranking ones.  They are capable knights, but not a figure the people can rally behind.  Roy is the son of a Marquis and part of the ruling class.  Although @Claudius I or @blah the Prussian could probably put it more eloquently than I could.  A low ranking, all-things-considered knight might be able to serve well, but unless they had royal/noble blood it would be hard for them to take charge without a big power struggle, and Lycia couldn't afford that.

The real reason all these lords who are chosen to lead the army are either teens or young adults is that most FE players are teens or young adults so they can more easily relate to the protagonists as opposed to older middle-aged men or woman in Titania's case. 

[Rezzy]

3 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

The real reason all these lords who are chosen to lead the army are either teens or young adults is that most FE players are teens or young adults so they can more easily relate to the protagonists as opposed to older middle-aged men or woman in Titania's case. 

It's not without real-life precedent for teenagers to lead armies in the Medieval world.  Henry II's sons revolted against him when they were a bunch of teenagers, and Edward III overthrew his mother and her lover and reclaimed his crown as a teenager.  Having the claim of blood often meant a lot more than simply being the best general in the Medieval world.

[Interdimensional Observer]

8 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Having the claim of blood often meant a lot more than simply being the best general in the Medieval world.

But to be fair, you can't get the power without people beside you who can stab well, or advisors to help you plan. Yes, a general/minister sans the right family can't attain power on their own, but they can possibly choose their liege and help them try to succeed.

[Rezzy]

29 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

But to be fair, you can't get the power without people beside you who can stab well, or advisors to help you plan. Yes, a general/minister sans the right family can't attain power on their own, but they can possibly choose their liege and help them try to succeed.

Um, I think you might have misunderstood what I said.  What you're saying there is exactly what happened in both game and my real life examples.  You have lower rung nobles/knights helping the young leaders, but not actually leading themselves.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well Eliwood could have, but he is by pure chance sick at the time. He could have taken out Zephiel if he had the vigor and Durandal/Maltet.

Marcus is too old, and FE is modern anime medieval, not true medieval.

You'd expect Pherae to be on the forefront of Bern foreign policy though. Since it rests on the border with the mountain kingdom and is thus highly vulnerable to it and likely economically dependent on trade to and fro Bern. Ostia rests on the Etrurian border and probably has a similar role derived from that.

 

I thought all the marquesses were equal legally. Sure differences in political, economic, and social power naturally arise, but I thought they were in principle coequals. Is there any writing supporting this?

 

Eliwood already leads the Lycian Alliance. Don't forget that before Western Isle arc, Roy spent a while fighting Narcian while Eliwood is busy restoring Lycia

[ping]

10 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Ostia is the head of the Lycian League, so yes, they would in theory outrank all the other Lycian territories. But the Lycian territories are all autonomous to a degree.

Do you know where this is stated? I always thought that there was no designated head of the league, and Ostia just happens to be the factually strongest faction in it. Eric in FE7 only says that "Ostia’s position had always bothered [his] father…" without specifying what that position would be exactly.

[Paper Jam]

Relevant quotes about Ostia's position within the Lycian League:

Quote

Serra: I'm in the employ of Ostia, Lycia's ruling territory.

Source: https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/scripts/game-script/eliwoods-story/chapter-12-birds-of-a-feather/

Quote

Villager: Is it true we're battling Castle Ostia? What could that fool of a marquess be thinking? Laus has no chance of defeating Lycia's most powerful territory!

Source: https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/scripts/game-script/eliwoods-story/chapter-14-false-friends/

Hector: My brother has only recently become the marquess, as well as head of the Lycian League.

Source: https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/scripts/game-script/eliwoods-story/chapter-15-noble-lady-of-caelin/

But if Ostia is the most powerful territory in Lycia, Pherae is apparently a close second, according to Merlinus:

Quote

Merlinus: Goodness! Ostia! Pherae! The greatest houses in all of Lycia!

Source: https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/scripts/game-script/eliwoods-story/chapter-13x-the-peddler-merlinus/

Edited November 3, 2017 by Paper Jam

[Acacia Sgt]

Here are some more quotes:

Erick in Chapter 14.

Quote

Ostia’s position had always bothered my father… He felt Laus deserved to rule all of Lycia.

Hector in Chapter 15.

Quote

My brother has only recently become marquess, as well as head of the Lycian League.

And then back in Binding Blade, this is Hector's character description (which can be seen in the Trial Map:)

Quote

The leader of the League of Lycia and the Marquess of Ostia.

Ostia most likely is the head of the league as a result of Roland being from Ostia, and becoming its first Marquess. As shows in Binding Blade's Chapter 8x script:

Quote

Roy:
“Roland… Is that Roland the Hero, the first marquess of Ostia?”

Lilina:
“Right, he’s our oldest ancestor. The sword is called the Durandal, the Blazing Sword.”

Roy:
“The Durandal…the name has a strange echo to it. So Roland fought the Dragons with that sword during the Scouring?”

Lilina:
“That’s how the legends go. There’s also another story behind the Durandal. After the Scouring ended, Roland returned to his hometown of Ostia. He then raised the Durandal high above his head, and the land that had been trampled upon during the war suddenly bloomed with life again.”

Now, whether the fact that in Binding Blade, Eliwood was made head of the League, and with Roy's exploits in the game, the Status Quo changed, it's hard to say...

[Paper Jam]

The status quo probably did change when Bern attacked the Lycian army at Araphen. Hector was killed there, and presumably so was most of Ostia's army. That would shift the balance of power in favor of Pherae (which had been established as second only to Ostia prior to that attack).

[Acacia Sgt]

15 minutes ago, Paper Jam said:

The status quo probably did change when Bern attacked the Lycian army at Araphen. Hector was killed there, and presumably so was most of Ostia's army. That would shift the balance of power in favor of Pherae (which had been established as second only to Ostia prior to that attack).

When it comes to army strength, remember Pherae's was also at Araphen. In fact, most of all the Lycian territories. It's likely though that despite the losses, Pherae was still among the strongest standing, and with Roy proving himself stopping the rebellion, it gave it a boost as well. Hence, Eliwood becomes the next head. The position may or may not have been hereditary (Ostia's marquesses being Roland's direct line of descendry), but the situation in Binding Blade was extraordinary to begin with, as Ostia's power was dealt a heavy blow both at Araphen and then further losses with the rebellion. And regardless, Lilina was still too young and/or inexperience to take over as head of the league.

On the other hand, looking further at the script, Lilina's solo extended ending states:

Quote

She later rebuilt and led the Lycia Alliance to create the Kingdom of Lycia, a peaceful nation blessed with prosperity and harmony.

Her paired ending also says the same, only adding that Roy helped with that. So perhaps it is hereditary, after all, and Eliwood only held the position temporarily due to the circumstances. Unless Ostia recovered fast enough in just one lifetime.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Shoblongoo]

...There's also the simple fact that Lilina never pressed the claim...

Like there's never a moment where Lilina confronts Roy and says: "I am Lord Hector's heir and The Noble Lady of Ostia. I lead this army--not you. These men follow my orders." 

If Hector's daughter had been a more ambitious and aggressive type of person--the kind of person who DOES press that claim--and if she had asserted it. She may well have been able to force Roy out of leadership, on-the-spot.

We can't discount that Roy led and continued to lead--among other reasons--because Lilina wanted him to. She supported him and didn't raise any objections to his leadership.

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[ping]

Thanks, @Paper Jam and @Acacia Sgt :) I never really noticed these details in the dialogues, but they're small enough that I don't feel bad about it. :D I guess it's still possible that Uther and then Hector were personally elected in Holy-Roman-Empire façon (Hector's "My brother has only recently become the marquess, as well as head of the Lycian League." sorta sounds like Marquess of Ostia and Head of the League are two seperate things), but that might be stretching it. ;)

For the question asked in the OP, I'm honestly with what @Shoblongoo just wrote. Lilina is somewhat of papa's little girl and not really the type to assume leadership, so the legal background isn't all that relevant in this regard - still interesting to speculate about, though.

[Paper Jam]

The position may or may not have been hereditary (Ostia's marquesses being Roland's direct line of descendry)

Even if the position of leader of Lycia was hereditary, Eliwood was also a descendant of Roland.