Trainee Units.  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. What should Ross turn into?

    • Hero.
      8
    • Warrior.
      5
    • Berserker.
      21
  2. 2. What should Amelia turn into?

    • Paladin.
      17
    • General.
      10
    • Great Knight.
      7
  3. 3. What should Ewan turn into?

    • Sage.
      6
    • Mage Knight.
      5
    • Druid.
      17
    • Summoner.
      6


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Repeating how awfully slow Garcia is doesn't make it more true, y'know. His base speed of 7 is still perfectly average in the earlygame - one more than Neimi and Kyle, the same as Franz and Lute, one less then Artur and Natasha... Garcia has great base stats - nice bulk thanks to his high HP, and good damage output. Sure, he won't be able to double much later into the game, but this is still FE8 we're talking about - there's still a number of enemies that he can double and only a few select enemies will be able to double Garcia, so it's not that he's going to be a liablity later on.

I'm not trying to advocate that Garcia is a Seth-tier unit (it seems I sound that way when I only try to argue that a unit isn't garbage), he's by far the best of the GBA earlygame fighters. I suspect you'll answer that this doesn't mean much, but "by far" is the operative term here.

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1 hour ago, ping said:

Repeating how awfully slow Garcia is doesn't make it more true, y'know. His base speed of 7 is still perfectly average in the earlygame - one more than Neimi and Kyle, the same as Franz and Lute, one less then Artur and Natasha... Garcia has great base stats - nice bulk thanks to his high HP, and good damage output. Sure, he won't be able to double much later into the game, but this is still FE8 we're talking about - there's still a number of enemies that he can double and only a few select enemies will be able to double Garcia, so it's not that he's going to be a liablity later on.

I'm not trying to advocate that Garcia is a Seth-tier unit (it seems I sound that way when I only try to argue that a unit isn't garbage), he's by far the best of the GBA earlygame fighters. I suspect you'll answer that this doesn't mean much, but "by far" is the operative term here.

Because being the best of the worst is obviously an impressive and noteworthy feat, right? It means about as much as being the best cat in RD, frankly (aka, that ain't saying very much). While he might not be able to get doubled other than by certain enemy types, at the same time, outside of enemy types that literally anyone can double because they're just that slow, or are weighed down by a lot, him doubling without Garm isn't going to happen often. And while you might argue that he has nice bulk because of his high HP, that only means so much when you're a terrible dodger with low defenses. I mean, most other Fighters had high HP, but their low defenses meant it didn't take them far.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Garcia is decent enough, though not great as LMC says (GBA fighters are indeed horrid so Garcia being the best of them doesn't say much). It's Ross that I think is the real problem: 3 base speed, 4 base move, bad durability, etc., etc. If you want to say "well, we're babying him up because we want to", that's fine, it's Sacred Stones after all. But turning around and then acting like we can't use Neimi is bizarre.

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44 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Garcia is decent enough, though not great as LMC says

You might be confusing us here. ;) I didn't want to call Garcia "amazing" though - "great base stats" was probably a bit of an exaggeration, although he's still pretty good in the first few chapters. Overall, I perceive Garcia as an average (or slightly above average) unit because he starts good and stays reasonably decent throughout the game. Not great, but still considerably better than Neimi, who starts out worse in basically every parameter - lower speed, lower Atk, lower Def, lower HP, worse weapon type, although I guess her chip is a bit more accurate than Garcias?! I certainly didn't mean to imply that one "can't" use Neimi, and I honestly don't know where you read that in my posts. Of course you "can" use non-optimal units, this is a thread about the trainees, ffs.

Anyway, it's probably worth noting where this argument started - this was initially Ross's and Colm's longterm use as a combat unit - longterm as in "after promotion". I meant to argue against your argument that promoting Ross is more of a waste than promoting Colm (which is honestly somewhat of a pointless discussion in a thread about what to promote the trainees into, but whatever). The whole Garcia vs. Neimi stuff was merely supposed to be a small point in Ross' favour (since it's less of an opportunity cost to field Garcia than Neimi), nothing more. The following argument started because Levant took offense to my phrase "and Garcia is way better than Neimi", which I find strange - not because Garcia were so good, but because Neimi is really bad. That's literally all there is, and I personally don't really see a point in continuing to argue about that. Arguments why Garcia is nay bad have been made in the recent tier list thread, so Levant can Strg-F Garcia in there. I guess, General Horace's post here is better at explaining what I mean when I say Garcia is above average.

Edited by ping

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Haha, yes, my bad. Clearly I subconsciously wanted to imply LMC was hyping an infantry axeman as a joke.

1 hour ago, ping said:

I meant to argue against your argument that promoting Ross is more of a waste than promoting Colm (which is honestly somewhat of a pointless discussion in a thread about what to promote the trainees into, but whatever)

Well you're the one who randomly threw Colm under a bus to start it, so you clearly thought there was a point. :)

Your little emoticon line about using Neimi seemed to imply that using her was laughable (might have been a misread on my part!), which I thought was a bizarre claim to make when discussing Ross (or trainees in general). I mean if Player A wants to run Ross/Garcia and Player B wants to run Colm/Neimi, then Player A can't really laugh at Player B trying to use someone who is bad at base because... Player A is too. Any definition that makes Neimi "really bad" or "bottom five" pretty much has to encompass Ross as well; both are project units, and as bad as Neimi is at base, Ross somehow manages to be worse.

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2 hours ago, ping said:

You might be confusing us here. ;) I didn't want to call Garcia "amazing" though - "great base stats" was probably a bit of an exaggeration, although he's still pretty good in the first few chapters. Overall, I perceive Garcia as an average (or slightly above average) unit because he starts good and stays reasonably decent throughout the game. Not great, but still considerably better than Neimi, who starts out worse in basically every parameter - lower speed, lower Atk, lower Def, lower HP, worse weapon type, although I guess her chip is a bit more accurate than Garcias?! I certainly didn't mean to imply that one "can't" use Neimi, and I honestly don't know where you read that in my posts. Of course you "can" use non-optimal units, this is a thread about the trainees, ffs.

Anyway, it's probably worth noting where this argument started - this was initially Ross's and Colm's longterm use as a combat unit - longterm as in "after promotion". I meant to argue against your argument that promoting Ross is more of a waste than promoting Colm (which is honestly somewhat of a pointless discussion in a thread about what to promote the trainees into, but whatever). The whole Garcia vs. Neimi stuff was merely supposed to be a small point in Ross' favour (since it's less of an opportunity cost to field Garcia than Neimi), nothing more. The following argument started because Levant took offense to my phrase "and Garcia is way better than Neimi", which I find strange - not because Garcia were so good, but because Neimi is really bad. That's literally all there is, and I personally don't really see a point in continuing to argue about that. Arguments why Garcia is nay bad have been made in the recent tier list thread, so Levant can Strg-F Garcia in there. I guess, General Horace's post here is better at explaining what I mean when I say Garcia is above average.

I'll admit that Garcia might have better parameters than Neimi, but I can't say the same of Ross - he loses in everything but Defense, which he ties, Strength (which his weapon cancels out on account of being weaker than an Iron Bow; sure, he CAN use a Hand Axe at base, but that's -25 accuracy relative to the Hatchet), and Luck. And I'll admit that Neimi's bad, but I'm starting to believe that Ross isn't much better - IF he can even be considered better, that is, which I have doubts about. And if Ross can't even manage to be better than frigging Neimi, how the heck can he be better than Colm (which there was an argument about on the last page)???

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Your little emoticon line about using Neimi seemed to imply that using her was laughable (might have been a misread on my part!), which I thought was a bizarre claim to make when discussing Ross (or trainees in general). I mean if Player A wants to run Ross/Garcia and Player B wants to run Colm/Neimi, then Player A can't really laugh at Player B trying to use someone who is bad at base because... Player A is too. Any definition that makes Neimi "really bad" or "bottom five" pretty much has to encompass Ross as well; both are project units, and as bad as Neimi is at base, Ross somehow manages to be worse.

Oh, that :D

I just wanted to say that there's more of an opportunity cost to field Neimi than to field Garcia, so I found (and find) the "two slowpokes" argument a bit silly.

Really, my whole point is that having a, say, lv. 10/15/1 Ross and an unpromoted lv.15 Colm is better than a 10/15 pirate(or Fighter) Ross and a 15/1 Colm. I just find that the latter doesn't bring much to the party.

And since the whole thread is about what to promote the trainees into, I don't really want to get into the question whether or not Ross is viable - I just assume that he's used, same as Ewan and Amelia.

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4 hours ago, ping said:

Oh, that :D

I just wanted to say that there's more of an opportunity cost to field Neimi than to field Garcia, so I found (and find) the "two slowpokes" argument a bit silly.

Really, my whole point is that having a, say, lv. 10/15/1 Ross and an unpromoted lv.15 Colm is better than a 10/15 pirate(or Fighter) Ross and a 15/1 Colm. I just find that the latter doesn't bring much to the party.

And since the whole thread is about what to promote the trainees into, I don't really want to get into the question whether or not Ross is viable - I just assume that he's used, same as Ewan and Amelia.

Which I don't really agree with, since Ross has much the same statistical shortcomings as his father, and worse yet, has to compete with him for a promotion item. Unless you promote him into Pirate, in which case he has to use an Ocean Seal (and I see no reason to give him undue preference for that over Colm).

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16 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Garcia is decent enough, though not great as LMC says (GBA fighters are indeed horrid so Garcia being the best of them doesn't say much). It's Ross that I think is the real problem: 3 base speed, 4 base move, bad durability, etc., etc. If you want to say "well, we're babying him up because we want to", that's fine, it's Sacred Stones after all. But turning around and then acting like we can't use Neimi is bizarre.

ross doesnt even need to be babying that much, just let him finish 2-3 boss, some chapters till he lv 10

Edited by lehuy

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You should bench or get Amelia killed immediately, trust me, garbage like that isn't needed. 

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22 minutes ago, Kazuya said:

You should bench or get Amelia killed immediately, trust me, garbage like that isn't needed. 

Saying stuff like that is an easy way to not get taken seriously...

3 hours ago, lehuy said:

ross doesnt even need to be babying that much, just let him finish 2-3 boss, some chapters till he lv 10

He still needs it, though, what with his awful speed and 4 move. Also, the only boss he can feasibly finish is the one in his join chapter - the chapter after has a boss on a throne with a Hand Axe, and two chapters afterwards is an armor boss. (I ignored the Entombed boss because that's a free level up for pretty much anyone who kills it, or a huge chunk of EXP for Seth if he kills it)

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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On 11/13/2017 at 9:07 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Saying stuff like that is an easy way to not get taken seriously...

He still needs it, though, what with his awful speed and 4 move. Also, the only boss he can feasibly finish is the one in his join chapter - the chapter after has a boss on a throne with a Hand Axe, and two chapters afterwards is an armor boss. (I ignored the Entombed boss because that's a free level up for pretty much anyone who kills it, or a huge chunk of EXP for Seth if he kills it)

It's true though, Amelia the worst unit in 8. In a game where no one needs effort to be good, she is the one of the 4 that require effort and her out put is terrible. She is nothing but a b on a bench. 

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17 minutes ago, Kazuya said:

It's true though, Amelia the worst unit in 8. In a game where no one needs effort to be good, she is the one of the 4 that require effort and her out put is terrible. She is nothing but a b on a bench. 

It ain't like Ross or Ewan is oh so much better in terms of output...

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22 hours ago, Kazuya said:

It's true though, Amelia the worst unit in 8. In a game where no one needs effort to be good, she is the one of the 4 that require effort and her out put is terrible. She is nothing but a b on a bench. 

is it really so bad to require a little bit of effort? I happen to enjoy the challenge of building up a unit until they're good, and my Amelia's have always outpaced Gilliam, Duessel, Forde, and Kyle, so shrug

Kinda the reason I posted in this thread to begin with; I like the trainee units. Even Ewan who consistently ends up being trash.

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Are you using Tower of Valni to train Amelia?  Other than that and surrounding a healer/archer and having Amelia chip at it, I don't see how training her requires just a little effort.

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