Jump to content

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I doubt that would work. Once word spreads, Daein would be even angrier at Begnion, and would outright refuse to obey. Perhaps even fight back since they'd have nothing to loose. Theatening their very existence is the least effective method to get them to cooperate with you. And with how Micaiah is devoted to Daein, she's still have her hands tied, just in a different way. And even if it was a bluff, since the Lagus Army is still in Begnion at the time, temporary truce or not, they could call the bluff since the time and effort to divert their attention to fight Daein means they'd have to almost completely ignore the Laguz, who could take the chance.

Though personally, I think this an interesting outcome as it makes the war three-way, since Daein would not be allied to the Laguz Alliance in this case, but both would be in opposition to Begnion.

I think it works well enough. Obviously Daeins wouldn't appreciate having a metaphorical gun at their back, but Micaiah has reason to side with the nation that is most likely to win the war.  There is also the matter of culture and recent events. Daein is still a racist country and recently invaded Crimea. Micaiah didn't have much reason to expect Crimea to sympathize with them, nor could she expect her citizens would more eagerly ally with sub-humans Laguz, than Begnion who are similarly racist.

1 minute ago, RedRob said:

Considering we don't know the origin of Blood Pacts, as in how them as an idea even came about, It's possible it was meant to be a trick. "Here, sign this, and you get awesome powers. Thank you and bye-bye sucker!" Just something where the signer is lied to about how it works, and boom, they're boned. Basically a magical countywide scam or con of sorts.

I mean, that pretty much is how it works. The signer doesn't even need to be aware of the contents of the contract for it to take effect. I think it's more compelling story telling when the signer thinks they're getting their money's worth, but realizes later how badly they screwed themselves over (not the villain going "lmao, I lied, you shoulda read the fine print"). The question is, what could the signer be getting that would make "eternal servitude to another sovereign" worth it? They should at least stipulate time limits on those things.

13 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I just plugged in the addition (there must have been an algorithm that could let me get the answer in a minute, but I didn't check). After 100 days of an active Blood Pact, you get 5050 deaths. Given said Blood Pact was enacted on Kilvas, a small island nation composed of Laguz who probably as a result of their longer lifespans (about 210 years for Ravens I think, assumes a Beorc lives for 60) with smaller overall population and birth rate, and live purely on hunter-gathering, losing half the population sounds quite feasible.

5050 deaths for Daein though, given it's said that during 3-13 Micaiah had a meagre army of 10000, doesn't sound so worrisome. Of course, extend the war to four months (120 days) and we're now adding another 2000 souls to the death count. A year would kill Daein, which IRL would make fighting against a Blood Pact impossible. In FE though, wars end in a year tops. And how long could the Senate last if Sanaki's reveal took away half of the much vaunted Begnion Central Army, which now had to face Crimea on top of Daein? Extending it to 5 months would add about 3000 more deaths at 100+ per day, a half year would be over 13000 dead for Daein.

We don't know how large Daein's population is, but a quick look on Wikipedia puts High Middle Ages France and Italy in the 10-13 million and 18-20 million pre-Black Death range. So 13000 deaths sound bearable. If we choose to suspend the knowledge of FE ingame wars being extraordinarily short compared to actual wars fought historically, including historically ingame (there was a 46 year war in the past of Tellius which pit everyone vs. Begnion), then yes, the Blood Pact can be a HUGE threat. A five year war, to use the Crimea-Daein War of 420-425, would be pretty awful if either was BP'ed.

Just felt like doing some random logistics and such.

I think the biggest thing is the uncertainty. We the players know that FE wars don't last that long (which is more a matter of easier story telling rather than realistic logistics) but Micaiah doesn't know how long it could go on. Her misjudgement could cause the literal extinction of her people. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 164
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

11 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I think it works well enough. Obviously Daeins wouldn't appreciate having a metaphorical gun at their back, but Micaiah has reason to side with the nation that is most likely to win the war.  There is also the matter of culture and recent events. Daein is still a racist country and recently invaded Crimea. Micaiah didn't have much reason to expect Crimea to sympathize with them, nor could she expect her citizens would more eagerly ally with sub-humans Laguz, than Begnion who are similarly racist.

I doubt Micaiah would still make that decision. This is why I meant about her hands being tied differently. Due to her devotion to Daein, if Daein wants to fight Begnion, she wouldn't have the will to deny them that. Look back at 3-6, she does not only mentions she trusts Pelleas, she also mentions the soldiers want to fight, and she has her duty to them. So no, she would not comply with Begnion here if the people of Daein don't.

Which brings up an interesting point, I'd say, which is another flaw to the Blood Pact as a plot device. The fact the people of Daein wanted to fight, helped by the fact they were never aware of the pact. The main characters always bring up the Pact as a reason they're unable to pull out, but never once take into account that the people themselves would not want to. I think that makes the pact forcing Pelleas and Micaiah to fight loose impact, since they could just go for the more reasonable and interesting "they aren't capable/willing to go against their own people's wishes". Considering things, the Senate wouldn't even had to resort to the Pact in the first place, just rile up the people of Daein enough to want to fight so Pelleas and Micaiah can't do much about it.

As I said, three-way war. Not allied, but have a common enemy. It also opens the chance for... collateral pot-shots between the two.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I doubt Micaiah would still make that decision. This is why I meant about her hands being tied differently. Due to her devotion to Daein, if Daein wants to fight Begnion, she wouldn't have the will to deny them that. Look back at 3-6, she does not only mentions she trusts Pelleas, she also mentions the soldiers want to fight, and she has her duty to them. So no, she would not comply with Begnion here if the people of Dain don't.

Which brings up an interesting point, I'd say, which is another flaw to the Blood Pact as a plot device. The fact the people of Daein wanted to fight, helped by the fact they were never aware of the pact. The main characters always bring up the Pact as a reason they're unable to pull out, but never once take into account that the people themselves would not want to. I think that makes the pact forcing Pelleas and Micaiah to fight loose impact, since they could just go for the more reasonable and interesting "they aren't capable/willing to go against their own people's wishes". Considering things, the Senate wouldn't even had to resort to the Pact in the first place, just rile up the people of Daein enough to want to fight so Pelleas and Micaiah can't do much about it.

That's the point I'm making. The Daein people are comfortable enough going to war with the Laguz, and they wouldn't be so enthusiastic to side WITH the Laguz, especially if it made an enemy of the much stronger Begnion. I do think you need a bigger stakes threat for Micaiah, however. If Daein sided with Begnion without any coercion, Micaiah would seem like a jerk for standing by them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

IWhich brings up an interesting point, I'd say, which is another flaw to the Blood Pact as a plot device. The fact the people of Daein wanted to fight, helped by the fact they were never aware of the pact. The main characters always bring up the Pact as a reason they're unable to pull out, but never once take into account that the people themselves would not want to. I think that makes the pact forcing Pelleas and Micaiah to fight loose impact, since they could just go for the more reasonable and interesting "they aren't capable/willing to go against their own people's wishes". Considering things, the Senate wouldn't even had to resort to the Pact in the first place, just rile up the people of Daein enough to want to fight so Pelleas and Micaiah can't do much about it.

 

Which bring up another point about Micaiah. I don't think it's ever explained why she cares so much for Daein, nor does she acknowledge the fact that Daein is kind of a country full of assholes. Sure, after losing the first war, they're being oppressed, but considering they started it, it's almost karmic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

That's the point I'm making. The Daein people are comfortable enough going to war with the Laguz, and they wouldn't be so enthusiastic to side WITH the Laguz, especially if it made an enemy of the much stronger Begnion. I do think you need a bigger stakes threat for Micaiah, however. If Daein sided with Begnion without any coercion, Micaiah would seem like a jerk for standing by them. 

And my point is that it wouldn't be an alliance. The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. Daein could start attacking the Laguz as well. Once again: wars with more than two sides exist. It's not always Us vs Them, but can be Us vs Those vs Them vs They, etc.

I think the "won't go against Daein's wishes" is the bigger stakes. At least from a narrative point. To paraphrase, "it takes courage to stand against your enemies, but even more so to do so against your friends" could apply in this situation. And the fact that it's not always a good idea to let others do what they want if it's harmful on the long run. That would be an interesting moral dilemma for Micaiah to tackle.

That said, I can think of a way, but it's more appropiate to be in the "How would you rewrite the story" thread, so I'll do that there, if you want to check it out.

6 minutes ago, RedRob said:

Which bring up another point about Micaiah. I don't think it's ever explained why she cares so much for Daein, nor does she acknowledge the fact that Daein is kind of a country full of assholes. Sure, after losing the first war, they're being oppressed, but considering they started it, it's almost karmic.

I think she herself explains it. She grew up in Daein, and was treated quite well by its people. It probably left an impact on her since very young.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

I think she herself explains it. She grew up in Daein, and was treated quite well by its people. It probably left an impact on her since very young.

Fair enough, but do we ever see what see thinks about Daein being responsible for the first war?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, RedRob said:

Which bring up another point about Micaiah. I don't think it's ever explained why she cares so much for Daein, nor does she acknowledge the fact that Daein is kind of a country full of assholes. Sure, after losing the first war, they're being oppressed, but considering they started it, it's almost karmic.

She states that she was treated kindly by Daeins after the MKA war, and was inspired by their support of each other during hard times. Micaiah doesn't really have a country to call home, so she just settled there by chance it seems. Call it a compassion for humanity in general. There is an atmosphere of bigotry in the general population, but there are many kind Daeins as well.

Edited by NekoKnight
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

(there must have been an algorithm that could let me get the answer in a minute, but I didn't check)

N*(N+1)/2 ;) Pair the numbers from the outside to the inside - in your example 1+100 ; 2+99 ; 3+99 - all the pairs equal to N+1 and you have N/2 of those pairs.

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Such is true of soooooo much entertainment media. You hear it in video games, in movies, in TV, in everything really. And does anything change? Yes maybe and certainly sadly no.

Frankly, the fact that Micaiah is the more morally grey character than Ike is more like an inversion of FE's usual scheme. The truely rotten villains or enemies-of-the-day are almost exclusively male - take Narcian, Gheb, or Valter, while the female enemies always have some kind of reason why they're fighting on the wrong side. Take Brunya, whose loyalty to Zephiel is portrayed as tragic and who even forbids the Bernian soldiers with families to partake in the upcoming hopeless battle. Or Sacred Stones, which has exactly one female boss (unless some of the monsters...) - Selena, who is pretty much Brunya 2.0. I guess FE7 has one exception in Sonia, although even she has somewhat of a sympathetic angle in that she's in denial about her nature as a morph, even though she's a complete monster otherwise.

Where Micaiah does fit in the predominant pattern is that she's not allowed to be (mentally) tough without any cutbacks. Ike becomes stronger over the cause of PoR and ha no real mental struggles in RD, while Micaiah becomes weaker somewhere between parts 1 and 3 and needs her husbando to confront Pelleas about the whole shitshow they're in. Eirika, in her flashbacks, is all about not wanting to rely on Ephraim's protection, but of course, Ephraim needs to bail her out not once, but twice over the course of the game (and the desert map is still my biggest gripe about FE8's story). I guess Lyn is the exception to the rule, given that she denies the Damsel role most of the time (for example right at the start where she insists that Sain and Kent aren't going to protect her, but merely fight on the same side), but the writers didn't seem to know how to fit her in the main story.

So yeah, FE is very heavy on the "woman = more sensitive" front - whenever there's two characters of opposite gender who fill similar roles in a game, the female one will be the one who's more insecure, more caring, and/or more peace-loving than the male.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, ping said:

Frankly, the fact that Micaiah is the more morally grey character than Ike is more like an inversion of FE's usual scheme. The truely rotten villains or enemies-of-the-day are almost exclusively male - take Narcian, Gheb, or Valter, while the female enemies always have some kind of reason why they're fighting on the wrong side. Take Brunya, whose loyalty to Zephiel is portrayed as tragic and who even forbids the Bernian soldiers with families to partake in the upcoming hopeless battle. Or Sacred Stones, which has exactly one female boss (unless some of the monsters...) - Selena, who is pretty much Brunya 2.0. I guess FE7 has one exception in Sonia, although even she has somewhat of a sympathetic angle in that she's in denial about her nature as a morph, even though she's a complete monster otherwise.

Where Micaiah does fit in the predominant pattern is that she's not allowed to be (mentally) tough without any cutbacks. Ike becomes stronger over the cause of PoR and ha no real mental struggles in RD, while Micaiah becomes weaker somewhere between parts 1 and 3 and needs her husbando to confront Pelleas about the whole shitshow they're in. Eirika, in her flashbacks, is all about not wanting to rely on Ephraim's protection, but of course, Ephraim needs to bail her out not once, but twice over the course of the game (and the desert map is still my biggest gripe about FE8's story). I guess Lyn is the exception to the rule, given that she denies the Damsel role most of the time (for example right at the start where she insists that Sain and Kent aren't going to protect her, but merely fight on the same side), but the writers didn't seem to know how to fit her in the main story.

So yeah, FE is very heavy on the "woman = more sensitive" front - whenever there's two characters of opposite gender who fill similar roles in a game, the female one will be the one who's more insecure, more caring, and/or more peace-loving than the male.

Yes and no. I mean, Nuibaba in Echoes is female and she's 100% evil. No logic behind it. She's a woman that wants to retain her eternal youth or something and acquire power. Though I also say yes because most female villains get some kind of story to avoid making them look so diabolically evil, like even Aversa was given this tragic background where she was just brainwashed to obey Validar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh gosh I went to bed and it blew up xD

I'm glad people seem to have so much to say about Micaiah!

Someone did make the comment that I don't like Soren and that's true, I won't try to hide that, but they made a good point about the hypocrisy of his methods being fine as opposed to Micaiah's. It seems to me like the male characters get passes on their actions far easier than the females do (again, Alm and Celica, Erika and Ephraim, etc) and... Ike is a paragon. He's morally 'good' and despite being blunt people are drawn to him. In RD he's meant to be a catalyst for other character's development more than his own. Which would be great if he had..... any development at all.

Here's the thing, Micaiah's also a paragon. However, she isn't as focused on and so it's easier to fault her for her paragon-ness and also because she makes bad decisions that leads people to follow her because... paragon. Honestly I like those characters and it's interesting to see a paragon type character go down the wrong path and lead others into following them down it - intentional or not, hands tied or not - because it really is an opportunity to explore not only the paragon themselves, but also those who put so much trust in them. Micaiah could have been so much better if they had focused on her story because she's the type of person that others want to follow but because of circumstances out of her control she leads those people following her down the wrong path. A path that she knows is wrong and she says as much many times, but she doesn't feel she has a choice. Ike may be a paragon but that was explored in depth in PoR, it would have been far more beneficial for him to take a back seat in this one - while still being Ike and present of course - and letting the game and story explore Micaiah's journey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Oh gosh I went to bed and it blew up xD

I'm glad people seem to have so much to say about Micaiah!

Someone did make the comment that I don't like Soren and that's true, I won't try to hide that, but they made a good point about the hypocrisy of his methods being fine as opposed to Micaiah's. It seems to me like the male characters get passes on their actions far easier than the females do (again, Alm and Celica, Erika and Ephraim, etc) and... Ike is a paragon. He's morally 'good' and despite being blunt people are drawn to him. In RD he's meant to be a catalyst for other character's development more than his own. Which would be great if he had..... any development at all.

Here's the thing, Micaiah's also a paragon. However, she isn't as focused on and so it's easier to fault her for her paragon-ness and also because she makes bad decisions that leads people to follow her because... paragon. Honestly I like those characters and it's interesting to see a paragon type character go down the wrong path and lead others into following them down it - intentional or not, hands tied or not - because it really is an opportunity to explore not only the paragon themselves, but also those who put so much trust in them. Micaiah could have been so much better if they had focused on her story because she's the type of person that others want to follow but because of circumstances out of her control she leads those people following her down the wrong path. A path that she knows is wrong and she says as much many times, but she doesn't feel she has a choice. Ike may be a paragon but that was explored in depth in PoR, it would have been far more beneficial for him to take a back seat in this one - while still being Ike and present of course - and letting the game and story explore Micaiah's journey.

LOL XD Well, its because we can all see the lost potential of Micaiah. She was done really poorly and we want to believe she'll do better if she gets the chance to have a remake.

Her horrible tactics are looked down because two things: 

1) Drugging and attacking supply units is one thing, dowsing enemies in oil and lighting them on fire is... well, pretty graphic. It is a legit tactic and Robin also employed a similar tactic to defeat the larger enemies, but still, players really don't want to truly think deeply on the concept of enemies being immolated.

2) Said enemies that are about to immolated is none other than characters we know and/or like. We don't really criticize Robin's tactic or blowing enemy ships up like he did because we didn't know the Valmese that much. And those guys were in the wrong. However, Elincia and her group were in the right, so Micaiah aiming her attacks on them... well, it just kind of makes it hard for the viewer to like Micaiah when she's about to burn other charatcers to death the way she was about to. We wouldn't really care if she was gonna do this to Izuka or Lekain, and we'd actually cheer for that, cause those two deserve to die horrible deaths. But Sanaki and the others... well... yeah no. 

But you know, it would have been something else if Elincia was in Micaiah's shoes. Fight against the laguz alliance and Ike or have her country die a slow, unavoidable death. We would have felt so much more sympathy if that were the case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

But you know, it would have been something else if Elincia was in Micaiah's shoes. Fight against the laguz alliance and Ike or have her country die a slow, unavoidable death. We would have felt so much more sympathy if that were the case.

1

Why would we feel more sympathy for Elincia compared to Micaiah if they are put in the same situation?

Also, I remember in part one, Tauroneo actually agrees with Izuka for once and not Micaiah. Can anyone remember what I'm talking about because the script seems to be missing details? I think it is about the Shifu swamp rescue operation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Icelerate said:

Why would we feel more sympathy for Elincia compared to Micaiah if they are put in the same situation?

Also, I remember in part one, Tauroneo actually agrees with Izuka for once and not Micaiah. Can anyone remember what I'm talking about because the script seems to be missing details? I think it is about the Shifu swamp rescue operation. 

Simple: Because we knew Elincia since Path of Radiance. We knew the trials and tribulations she has gone through. Micaiah we haven't gotten the amount of development to truly and completely sympathize with her and that's why there's still so much hate when it happens, and even at the end, because of how Yune ended up going with her, it also broke apart other cases of her development. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

LOL XD Well, its because we can all see the lost potential of Micaiah. She was done really poorly and we want to believe she'll do better if she gets the chance to have a remake.

Her horrible tactics are looked down because two things: 

1) Drugging and attacking supply units is one thing, dowsing enemies in oil and lighting them on fire is... well, pretty graphic. It is a legit tactic and Robin also employed a similar tactic to defeat the larger enemies, but still, players really don't want to truly think deeply on the concept of enemies being immolated.

2) Said enemies that are about to immolated is none other than characters we know and/or like. We don't really criticize Robin's tactic or blowing enemy ships up like he did because we didn't know the Valmese that much. And those guys were in the wrong. However, Elincia and her group were in the right, so Micaiah aiming her attacks on them... well, it just kind of makes it hard for the viewer to like Micaiah when she's about to burn other charatcers to death the way she was about to. We wouldn't really care if she was gonna do this to Izuka or Lekain, and we'd actually cheer for that, cause those two deserve to die horrible deaths. But Sanaki and the others... well... yeah no. 

But you know, it would have been something else if Elincia was in Micaiah's shoes. Fight against the laguz alliance and Ike or have her country die a slow, unavoidable death. We would have felt so much more sympathy if that were the case.

That's really what I hope too. I love her for both what she is and also what she has the potential to be. Of course a remake also makes me worried that they'll turn her into another Corrin... (Honestly though I love female Corrin's design, she just needs to wear pants and shoes xD)

Your points are both valid and that really hurt Micaiah in more ways than one. The tactic is valid but it's a rated T game and likely shocked people back when it was released. Also since she was against the moral paragon of Ike and all it cast her in an even worse light without the benefit of truly understanding her desperation. Because that tactic wasn't like Micaiah, it was an act of pure desperation.

The whole point of her actions was to show that she was getting desperate and to show a different side to the player. I get what IS was trying to do with that scene, I love the oil scene, but you're right about it being hard for the player to watch since most people like these characters (though I'm rather indifferent on Sanaki in RD). Your whole thing on Elincia is very true. If it were Elincia in the same situation I feel people would show her far more sympathy but we also had another whole game to follow her and get to know and love her so...

3 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Why would we feel more sympathy for Elincia compared to Micaiah if they are put in the same situation?

Also, I remember in part one, Tauroneo actually agrees with Izuka for once and not Micaiah. Can anyone remember what I'm talking about because the script seems to be missing details? I think it is about the Shifu swamp rescue operation. 

He agrees with Izuka that it's likely a trap and a really bad idea for Micaiah to go. Micaiah and Sothe agree but don't see where they have another choice if so many people are actually going to die so they enlist Tormod and Nailah for help which basically ensured their win (of course Izuka and Tauroneo didn't realize that).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

That's really what I hope too. I love her for both what she is and also what she has the potential to be. Of course a remake also makes me worried that they'll turn her into another Corrin... (Honestly though I love female Corrin's design, she just needs to wear pants and shoes xD)

Your points are both valid and that really hurt Micaiah in more ways than one. The tactic is valid but it's a rated T game and likely shocked people back when it was released. Also since she was against the moral paragon of Ike and all it cast her in an even worse light without the benefit of truly understanding her desperation. Because that tactic wasn't like Micaiah, it was an act of pure desperation.

The whole point of her actions was to show that she was getting desperate and to show a different side to the player. I get what IS was trying to do with that scene, I love the oil scene, but you're right about it being hard for the player to watch since most people like these characters (though I'm rather indifferent on Sanaki in RD). Your whole thing on Elincia is very true. If it were Elincia in the same situation I feel people would show her far more sympathy but we also had another whole game to follow her and get to know and love her so...

Of course you love her. Your name is Silver-Haired Maiden and you have Micaiah's pic as the avatar. XD But god I hope not. I doubt they'll do that though. See, Micaiah already has her personality, whereas Corrin... well, being a brand new character, they just tossed in things and tried to ride too hard on Awakening's popularity. I get that the no shoes thing was for the sense of draconic feel or some animalistic thing, but Tiki is a dragon, and there are dragon laguz, and they all wear shoes too, so yeah. ANd they do wear pants. F!Corrin just likes to show off her thighs like all girls in Fates do. 

Yeah. I get that she was desperate, but for Micaiah, her development was way too small. Part 1 had an establishment of her character and such, but we didn't see her until mid Part 3 I think, and thus her development went from steadily climbing to spiraling out of control and heading downhill fast. Because we didn't have enough time to spend with her, her actions led to many disliking her. And like you said, facing against the morally right paragon that is Ike was the bigger issue. It'd be like if Corrin was on the opposing side of Marth. People love Marth, and he's a great guy. People hate Corrin enough, and him going against Marth is just horrible. 

Yeah, it's precisely because we get another game with Elincia to see her struggles that we can understand how much she loves her nation, and how much she also loves her friends and comrades. So if she's to go against them, it's hard and we would feel bad for her. That's what I mean by development. Because her's is more solidified, it draws on more love from players, and that in turn makes them want to defend her more fiercely than people would for Micaiah. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Of course you love her. Your name is Silver-Haired Maiden and you have Micaiah's pic as the avatar. XD But god I hope not. I doubt they'll do that though. See, Micaiah already has her personality, whereas Corrin... well, being a brand new character, they just tossed in things and tried to ride too hard on Awakening's popularity. I get that the no shoes thing was for the sense of draconic feel or some animalistic thing, but Tiki is a dragon, and there are dragon laguz, and they all wear shoes too, so yeah. ANd they do wear pants. F!Corrin just likes to show off her thighs like all girls in Fates do. 

3

I see what you mean with Elincia but she hasn't developed all that well in PoR. Certainly not more than part one Micaiah. Speaking of the Corrin design, how come when Nephenee does it it is okay? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I see what you mean with Elincia but she hasn't developed all that well in PoR. Certainly not more than part one Micaiah. Speaking of the Corrin design, how come when Nephenee does it it is okay? 

Actually she does. If you look purely from Radiant Dawn, it's pretty impressive already, but its the knowledge of her development in Path of Radiance that truly makes her shine. She might not have been the main lord, and we saw more of Ike, but we know what she was going through and how rough she has it, losing her family, kingdom, and now trying to gain it all back. This is one of the reasons why Elincia would have been a great lord of the game had she gotten the chance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Of course you love her. Your name is Silver-Haired Maiden and you have Micaiah's pic as the avatar. XD But god I hope not. I doubt they'll do that though. See, Micaiah already has her personality, whereas Corrin... well, being a brand new character, they just tossed in things and tried to ride too hard on Awakening's popularity. I get that the no shoes thing was for the sense of draconic feel or some animalistic thing, but Tiki is a dragon, and there are dragon laguz, and they all wear shoes too, so yeah. ANd they do wear pants. F!Corrin just likes to show off her thighs like all girls in Fates do. 

Yeah. I get that she was desperate, but for Micaiah, her development was way too small. Part 1 had an establishment of her character and such, but we didn't see her until mid Part 3 I think, and thus her development went from steadily climbing to spiraling out of control and heading downhill fast. Because we didn't have enough time to spend with her, her actions led to many disliking her. And like you said, facing against the morally right paragon that is Ike was the bigger issue. It'd be like if Corrin was on the opposing side of Marth. People love Marth, and he's a great guy. People hate Corrin enough, and him going against Marth is just horrible. 

Yeah, it's precisely because we get another game with Elincia to see her struggles that we can understand how much she loves her nation, and how much she also loves her friends and comrades. So if she's to go against them, it's hard and we would feel bad for her. That's what I mean by development. Because her's is more solidified, it draws on more love from players, and that in turn makes them want to defend her more fiercely than people would for Micaiah. 

Well I was referring to F!Corrin specifically as I like her overall design better, but it would probably be awkward for M!Corrin to be running around without pants on xD

I really hope it's like you say where they keep her personality and don't... well, get rid of it. But yes, I do like Micaiah and I don't think anyone can fault her design, she's really pretty lol.

Most of Micaiah's issues could have been fixed by actually making her the main character of the game. Giving her the focus means giving her the spotlight, which means people get to learn more about her and come to sympathize with her. But why make a Tellius game and not make Ike the hero? So yeah, big issue there. Honestly I feel like the DB and the whole mess in Daein could have been far more interesting than the other parts if it had been given the attention it deserved.... Micaiah included. As for Elincia she could have benefitted from more actual time in RD too, but because of her loved status from PoR... well Ike and Yune are considered spotlight stealers for a reason.

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I see what you mean with Elincia but she hasn't developed all that well in PoR. Certainly not more than part one Micaiah. Speaking of the Corrin design, how come when Nephenee does it it is okay? 

Nephenee wears a skirt and shoes (boots to be accurate). I mean it's not a full length skirt or anything, but it's not her underwear either.

49 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually she does. If you look purely from Radiant Dawn, it's pretty impressive already, but its the knowledge of her development in Path of Radiance that truly makes her shine. She might not have been the main lord, and we saw more of Ike, but we know what she was going through and how rough she has it, losing her family, kingdom, and now trying to gain it all back. This is one of the reasons why Elincia would have been a great lord of the game had she gotten the chance.

...... I really need to play PoR....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Well I was referring to F!Corrin specifically as I like her overall design better, but it would probably be awkward for M!Corrin to be running around without pants on xD

I really hope it's like you say where they keep her personality and don't... well, get rid of it. But yes, I do like Micaiah and I don't think anyone can fault her design, she's really pretty lol.

Most of Micaiah's issues could have been fixed by actually making her the main character of the game. Giving her the focus means giving her the spotlight, which means people get to learn more about her and come to sympathize with her. But why make a Tellius game and not make Ike the hero? So yeah, big issue there. Honestly I feel like the DB and the whole mess in Daein could have been far more interesting than the other parts if it had been given the attention it deserved.... Micaiah included. As for Elincia she could have benefitted from more actual time in RD too, but because of her loved status from PoR... well Ike and Yune are considered spotlight stealers for a reason.

Nephenee wears a skirt and shoes (boots to be accurate). I mean it's not a full length skirt or anything, but it's not her underwear either.

...... I really need to play PoR....

Turn him into an axe fighter and there you go, the Axe Fighter in assless chaps. XP

They wouldn't. I do admit that they changed quite a bit of Alm's personality in Echoes, but to be honest, Gaiden being a very small game where we have no vivid understanding, it's really easy. Though I do think that the case of Alm was done a bit wrong. Alm was meant to embody some of Duma's teachings, yet though he chose to fight a war, he never thought of anything more than peace and helping others live better lives, which follows more on Mila's teachings. But anyways, because of how Micaiah is from a more advanced era, she'd no doubt retain her persona, but any remakes would only serve to add on, not remove things.

Mhm. Granted, like others say, the biggest issue is that Yune ultimately hijacks Micaiah and it sort of undermines her even more. I would have preferred if Ike never got a main role either and just stuck with a supporting role, but... well, Black Knight, Mist has the Medallion, Ragnell, tie in a bit more on PoR, etc etc. 

I dunno if you'll be able to play it. I mean, the system and game are pretty expensive and hard to find. Unless you already have it, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Someone did make the comment that I don't like Soren and that's true, I won't try to hide that, but they made a good point about the hypocrisy of his methods being fine as opposed to Micaiah's.

I just stumbled on this in case you never saw it:

Spoiler

Soren: Our last battle, in the valley. Was that your strategy?
Micaiah: …
Soren: That was impressive. You killed thousands of beorc soldiers with your little ambush. Well done.
Micaiah: I…
Soren: The Maiden of Dawn… What are you? One of the Branded, that’s for sure. But there is something else about you… Power. Yes, I can feel it in you. You possess great power.
Micaiah: Yes, and you would know. There’s something very different about you, too. Your energy feels so…ancient. You and I seem to have so much in common.
Soren: That doesn’t matter in the slightest. The only thing that does matter is that you are a dangerous adversary. You are also in Ike’s path, so it falls to me to remove you. It’s almost a shame. Farewell, Maiden of Dawn.
Micaiah: So, you fight for someone, as well. So very much alike… But I will defeat you. I will protect the ones I love!

Soren complementing Micaiah on her use of strategy. You like? Soren knows he's cold, so he can't criticize her and doesn't. Though it's clear Micaiah doesn't like being like Soren, whereas Soren is fine with being himself. The difference between the two.

One Branded of warmth, the other of cold. Life spun them differently, and so, different they are. Micaiah was left for dead and saved by a kind old woman, Soren held hostage and dumped off to a mean old woman. Perhaps if they had swapped old ladies, Miccy would the hater and Soren the lover? (I'm just being poetic here.)

 

5 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Giving her the focus means giving her the spotlight, which means people get to learn more about her and come to sympathize with her. But why make a Tellius game and not make Ike the hero? So yeah, big issue there.

IS would never look at it I think since they've too much pride to borrow from knockoff FE, but TearRing Saga might provide a solution. I've never played TRS nor watched an LP of it (because I want to get an emulator working some day and play it myself). But from what I've heard of the game it's the journey of Not-Leif, Not-Alm, Not-Celica, and some dude name Holmes. Not-Leif and Holmes are playable and go on their own separate journeys, while Not-Alm and Not-Celica do their own things offscreen, mentioned and seen as wicked NPCs with their monsterous NPC friends in one battle, but they themselves aren't playable until the very last fight.

If this was done well, then mayhap Micaiah could be Not-Leif and Ike Not-Alm. This wouldn't be the end all solution though, it'd require much more than this since the narrative of RD seems very different from TRS from what little I know of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Turn him into an axe fighter and there you go, the Axe Fighter in assless chaps. XP

They wouldn't. I do admit that they changed quite a bit of Alm's personality in Echoes, but to be honest, Gaiden being a very small game where we have no vivid understanding, it's really easy. Though I do think that the case of Alm was done a bit wrong. Alm was meant to embody some of Duma's teachings, yet though he chose to fight a war, he never thought of anything more than peace and helping others live better lives, which follows more on Mila's teachings. But anyways, because of how Micaiah is from a more advanced era, she'd no doubt retain her persona, but any remakes would only serve to add on, not remove things.

Mhm. Granted, like others say, the biggest issue is that Yune ultimately hijacks Micaiah and it sort of undermines her even more. I would have preferred if Ike never got a main role either and just stuck with a supporting role, but... well, Black Knight, Mist has the Medallion, Ragnell, tie in a bit more on PoR, etc etc. 

I dunno if you'll be able to play it. I mean, the system and game are pretty expensive and hard to find. Unless you already have it, of course.

Oh gosh that might actually be even worse xD

Alm was not an interesting character through Echoes to me but that's just me. I preferred Celica and even her path wasn't particularly interesting. But that's just my personal thing. As for Micaiah, I really hope that's the case because she had the potential to be the best main character in the franchise, if only she had been handled better.

...... Part 4 is many things and very few of them are good so I shall stop while I'm ahead. I don't mind Ike sharing the main character spotlight with Micaiah for part 4, it makes sense that he's there and helping out and there are issues that he needs to address. But he should share the spotlight and not take it, and.... Yune. I love her character but hate how it's portrayed and that they sacrifice the cover main character to give her lines. Just no.

As for PoR, I'm attempting to play it but it's giving me issues so.... I'm gonna attempt to resolve those.

11 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I just stumbled on this in case you never saw it:

  Reveal hidden contents

Soren: Our last battle, in the valley. Was that your strategy?
Micaiah: …
Soren: That was impressive. You killed thousands of beorc soldiers with your little ambush. Well done.
Micaiah: I…
Soren: The Maiden of Dawn… What are you? One of the Branded, that’s for sure. But there is something else about you… Power. Yes, I can feel it in you. You possess great power.
Micaiah: Yes, and you would know. There’s something very different about you, too. Your energy feels so…ancient. You and I seem to have so much in common.
Soren: That doesn’t matter in the slightest. The only thing that does matter is that you are a dangerous adversary. You are also in Ike’s path, so it falls to me to remove you. It’s almost a shame. Farewell, Maiden of Dawn.
Micaiah: So, you fight for someone, as well. So very much alike… But I will defeat you. I will protect the ones I love!

Soren complementing Micaiah on her use of strategy. You like? Soren knows he's cold, so he can't criticize her and doesn't. Though it's clear Micaiah doesn't like being like Soren, whereas Soren is fine with being himself. The difference between the two.

One Branded of warmth, the other of cold. Life spun them differently, and so, different they are. Micaiah was left for dead and saved by a kind old woman, Soren held hostage and dumped off to a mean old woman. Perhaps if they had swapped old ladies, Miccy would the hater and Soren the lover? (I'm just being poetic here.)

 

IS would never look at it I think since they've too much pride to borrow from knockoff FE, but TearRing Saga might provide a solution. I've never played TRS nor watched an LP of it (because I want to get an emulator working some day and play it myself). But from what I've heard of the game it's the journey of Not-Leif, Not-Alm, Not-Celica, and some dude name Holmes. Not-Leif and Holmes are playable and go on their own separate journeys, while Not-Alm and Not-Celica do their own things offscreen, mentioned and seen as wicked NPCs with their monsterous NPC friends in one battle, but they themselves aren't playable until the very last fight.

If this was done well, then mayhap Micaiah could be Not-Leif and Ike Not-Alm. This wouldn't be the end all solution though, it'd require much more than this since the narrative of RD seems very different from TRS from what little I know of it.

I have seen that conversation and have gotten it in game a couple times. It always came across as being more sarcastic in tone to me, he was giving her an underhanded compliment.

And there is another battle conversation in 3-7 which shows how much Soren looks down on her.

Spoiler

Soren
...Ah, that explains quite a bit about the stories that surround you.

Micaiah
Who are you? You're... You're just like me!

Soren
Yes, they call our kind the Branded. As the years pass, I understand better and better how others see us.

Micaiah
You are so...cold. It's like you're cloaked in frost. Is there even blood in your veins?

Soren
There is. Blood very similar to yours, in fact. Blood that teaches us what it means to be rejected and alone.

Micaiah
Your heart is frozen, but I feel a warm core trying to melt through that ice. I see... You have someone you cherish very much. Someone you rely on.

Soren
Do not presume to understand me, you ridiculous girl. You have no idea who I am and what I can do. None at all. Daein has no business in this war. I will defeat you swiftly and send you and your army back to Daein.

Micaiah
I finally meet my own kind, and he is an enemy... ...I will not retreat. I won't let you go any further! 

Now Micaiah is a generally warmer person and that leads people to want to follow her more. Of course my mind isn't changing about Soren. I dislike him greatly and feel the story would benefit from him not being in it.

As for the Tear Ring Saga I've heard of it but only in passing so I'm afraid all of that goes right over my head xD Sorry!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I have seen that conversation and have gotten it in game a couple times. It always came across as being more sarcastic in tone to me, he was giving her an underhanded compliment.

Well you're more inclined to see the worst in every word he utters. I'm inclined to see the better (or more often display sympathy for what lurks behind the bad words) he utters. So it is, so it's fine to be.

By the way, since Shinon got brought up in a different topic you started. ShinonxSoren is in the lowest tier for support growth in RD, ShinonxIke is one tier above that. Shinon, for all his Ike hating, hates Soren even more, probably because they're both so abrasive.

And on PoR, you will have to put up with Soren again of course. Just in case you don't want the details of his general plot appearances, I'll throw them in spoilers.

Spoiler

Let's start with the negative:

Soren's language is more acerbic than it is in RD. I say it's because PoR changes his mannerisms for the better, it just takes the 3 year timeskip between PoR and RD to make the changes manifest. But who am I to say this but a Soren devotee? 

Said language is generally found towards the beginning, with the last third or so relatively devoid of it.

 

The positive?

Well Soren's plot significance is smaller-ish. You loathe his strategic brilliance in RD. Someone said before that he never really strategizes in PoR. And thinking on it, Soren never plans out a battle the way he does in RD in PoR, except for one occasion later on. He is the Greil Mercenaries's chief strategist, but he never says "We'll do this grand plan to win" he strategizes, but save for that one instance, it's in the background to be imagined, never directly stated or emphasized nor is he lauded by everyone for it.

I don't mean to turn you off from PoR, it is very good. I'm just giving you a little heads up.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Micaiah becoming Queen would have happened irrespective of whether she was of noble birth. Do you guys agree? The only reason Pelleas was chosen was that people believed he was Ashnard's son but once Pelleas realizes he isn't, the only reason why he's ruling the country is gone so he'd step down and give the country to Micaiah. If Pelleas dies, there is no leader Daein can turn to other than Micaiah. 

Also, I fail to see why her being the Princess of Begnion would grant her favour among Daein citizens anyway. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/12/2017 at 5:09 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well you're more inclined to see the worst in every word he utters. I'm inclined to see the better (or more often display sympathy for what lurks behind the bad words) he utters. So it is, so it's fine to be.

By the way, since Shinon got brought up in a different topic you started. ShinonxSoren is in the lowest tier for support growth in RD, ShinonxIke is one tier above that. Shinon, for all his Ike hating, hates Soren even more, probably because they're both so abrasive.

And on PoR, you will have to put up with Soren again of course. Just in case you don't want the details of his general plot appearances, I'll throw them in spoilers.

  Reveal hidden contents

Let's start with the negative:

Soren's language is more acerbic than it is in RD. I say it's because PoR changes his mannerisms for the better, it just takes the 3 year timeskip between PoR and RD to make the changes manifest. But who am I to say this but a Soren devotee? 

Said language is generally found towards the beginning, with the last third or so relatively devoid of it.

 

The positive?

Well Soren's plot significance is smaller-ish. You loathe his strategic brilliance in RD. Someone said before that he never really strategizes in PoR. And thinking on it, Soren never plans out a battle the way he does in RD in PoR, except for one occasion later on. He is the Greil Mercenaries's chief strategist, but he never says "We'll do this grand plan to win" he strategizes, but save for that one instance, it's in the background to be imagined, never directly stated or emphasized nor is he lauded by everyone for it.

I don't mean to turn you off from PoR, it is very good. I'm just giving you a little heads up.

That's..... that's actually quite amusing xD People don't usually like people that are too much like them.

I'm actually starting to play through PoR now :) Maybe my opinion of him will change as I play through it.

On 11/12/2017 at 8:21 PM, Icelerate said:

I think Micaiah becoming Queen would have happened irrespective of whether she was of noble birth. Do you guys agree? The only reason Pelleas was chosen was that people believed he was Ashnard's son but once Pelleas realizes he isn't, the only reason why he's ruling the country is gone so he'd step down and give the country to Micaiah. If Pelleas dies, there is no leader Daein can turn to other than Micaiah. 

Also, I fail to see why her being the Princess of Begnion would grant her favour among Daein citizens anyway. 

The way the game is set up then yeah, pretty much. There's no way for Micaiah not to become Queen. As for that other thing it wouldn't really unless they take it as them having the voice of the goddess as well now? Maybe?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...