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3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

It was never said that every single Apostle had Micaiah's healing powers, what are you talking about?

Nothing is ever said other than being able to hear the goddess, so there's no evidence against it, either.

If anything, Micaiah is meant to be a guide on what an Apostle can do. There's also the circumstances to consider. Just how often would an Apostle find the need to use Sacrifice in an enviroment like the middle of Sienne, unlike say... Micaiah in the middle of the Nevassa slums?

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3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Nothing is ever said other than being able to hear the goddess, so there's no evidence against it, either.

If anything, Micaiah is meant to be a guide on what an Apostle can do. There's also the circumstances to consider. Just how often would an Apostle find the need to use Sacrifice in an enviroment like the middle of Sienne, unlike say... Micaiah in the middle of the Nevassa slums?

Sothe says Micaiah's powers are virtually unheard of though, so I doubt every Apostle had them.

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14 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Sothe says Micaiah's powers are virtually unheard of though, so I doubt every Apostle had them.

Exactly. If no Apostle had a need to use Sacrifice, then how could it be something heard of? It's unlikely every Apostle had a need to use every power they had. But again, there's no confirmation they all had the same powers, or only manifested a few from a list on a case by case basis. There's also the matter the world has been 20 years without an Apostle. Likely many people, specially in the younger generations, would simply not know. For one reason or another.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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Missed a lot, but replying to an older reply about my hypothetical new Part 4, good idea, Alder can be the villain. And as for the smaller cast, the Dawn Brigade isn't that small of a cast. I also imagined it to be like the BS Fire Emblem game, where you use a small group of characters each level. Especially as this is post game, and your characters won't gain any more experience.

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8 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Ike didn't even know what a laguz was at first. It's pretty clear that Greil did not teach him much about things other than survival skills and sword skills. Greil gave up all that and Ike was raised like a normal common person, so Greil having once been a powerful general is irrelevant.

Ike struck Ashera down because he had a weapon for it and had the best chance of landing that blow effectively.

Ike did face consequences and got called out for his mistakes. He didn't get any slaps on the wrists at all and I have no idea why anyone would say that he did.

This is all I have to say and I'd like to leave it at that. My mind will not be changed, so there would be no point in arguing further.

Well, no point in arguing this any further, but Ike really isn't free from the criticism of having Stu qualities. But least he isn't Ephraim, so I am perfectly fine on him.

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The funny thing is that I'm not actually using Micaiah as an example of a Sue.

I'm using arguments that people used against me years ago when I mentioned liking Micaiah. Nothing of that sort has happened here thankfully and I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to call someone out or anything similar. I really wasn't, I just knew I could trust y'all to help me.

Anyway I'm actually using these examples to refute Sueness so go figure xD Thanks everyone! I appreciate it :)

Edited by Silver-Haired Maiden

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Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

The funny thing is that I'm not actually using Micaiah as an example of a Sue.

I'm using arguments that people used against me years ago when I mentioned liking Micaiah. Nothing of that sort has happened here thankfully.

Anyway I'm actually using these examples to refute Sueness so go figure xD Thanks everyone! I appreciate it :)

There's always a refute to calling someone you like a Sue/Stu. As Ana defends Ike from that, people can defend Micaiah. 

People's dislike of Micaiah and calling her a Sue is just their perception of her, which can only be altered when the character actually grows on them. I mean, I can go on a huge ranting spree on why I think Ephraim is the worst Lord in the series and the biggest Stu of them all, and there are people that love Ephraim that would defend him. 

I cannot expect myself to change their view. Because we perceive the world differently.

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Overall, I thought Micaiah was a good character. I don't feel like she got overshadowed by Ike, as she had all of part 1 being her story, as well as a few chapters in part 3, and she spent part 4 being the host of Yune, yet still able to get her own dialogue. But this is just my opinion. Would perhaps a little more representation helped? Sure. Was there plenty already in a game with multiple lords? I personally think there was.

Things I liked about Micaiah (in no particular order):

1. No swords. She uses light magic and can heal people, and her reasons for having these abilities is clear. It helps her stand out compared to other FE lords, and I like the idea of a hero that uses light magic and healing.
2. Her motivations are clear. She wants to help people, she considers Daein her home, she loves Sothe, and she doesn't like the spotlight, as she's scared of what can happen if people find out she's branded. All her internal motivations are not only made clear, but explored, deconstructed, and reconstructed very effectively in her parts of the story.
3. Her character development was well done. She goes from trying to balance helping the people of Daein and staying out of the spotlight to hide her brand, to eventually accepting the spotlight by the end of part 1 if it means helping the people of Daein. In part 3, she struggles with the loss of her foresight as things become more chaotic, and struggles with the horrible catch 22 she and all of Daein is in as a result of the blood pact, and it goes far enough to make her look at herself and second guess what it means to lead, and what she's willing to do to help the people of Daein. It is very interestingly done, and frankly it really does a good job of making the player sympathise. In part 4, she struggles just a little bit with now having to work alongside Ike, a character she was bias against because of the Mad King's War, and she re-evaluates how she thinks of him after seeing the positive effect Ike had on Sothe, and seeing just why Sothe mentions him so often as an inspiration. It's just one moment, but it is a really good moment.
4. She is a Joan-of-Arc type character done well. The game explores what her becoming the "Silver-Haired Maiden" and hero of Daein means; how it affects her, how it affects how people think of her, etc. Her reasons for liberating her people strongly parallel Ike's, but how people see them is different. Soren even makes note of this in part 3 when describing Micaiah and what they know about her. 
5. As a unit, she can be pretty good. Her magic stat can become absurdly strong, and she gets a light magic version of the rapier.
6. Her design in part 1 is really cool. I'm not a fan of her later designs, but her initial one is really cool.
7. Her character dynamic with Sothe. Yeah; I understand how people might find their paired ending a bit weird, but I didn't mind it at all. In fact, I thought that Radiant Dawn did a good job of showing throughout the game that their feelings for each other were also romantic (even Ike; Ike of all people, could see it). I like how they interact throughout the game. I like the dialogue and the conversations they have with each other. I especially liked the moment in part 1 where Sothe mentions Ike when they're talking to Rafiel and Nailah, and Micaiah adds, "Right. Lord Ike, hero of the Crimean Liberation, leader of the Greil Mercenaries, and father of Sothe’s children…” And I personally think their paired ending makes perfect sense, unlike a certain radiant hero's ending...
8. In my very first playthrough, she maxed all her stats at level 19 of her third class. All of her stats. My family and I laughed as nothing went up for the final level up.

I'm sure there's more, but those are the reasons I can think of.

Things I didn't like about Micaiah:

1. As a unit, she can be difficult at times. Her speed and HP often mean you need to give her a seraph robe and a speedwing, and that isn't right. I get that she's supposed to be a glass cannon, but she needs to be able to double-attack, and either dodge or take enemy attacks. Sadly, sometimes she can't do either of those last two.
2. Um... She can only save Pelleas' life from the second playthrough onwards, and that stinks, though that's more a 2nd playthrough-exclusive problem than a problem with Micaiah.
3. Her Awakening DLC design and the fact that they made her a dark mage in Awakening.

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2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Overall, I thought Micaiah was a good character. I don't feel like she got overshadowed by Ike, as she had all of part 1 being her story, as well as a few chapters in part 3, and she spent part 4 being the host of Yune, yet still able to get her own dialogue. But this is just my opinion. Would perhaps a little more representation helped? Sure. Was there plenty already in a game with multiple lords? I personally think there was.

Things I liked about Micaiah (in no particular order):

1. No swords. She uses light magic and can heal people, and her reasons for having these abilities is clear. It helps her stand out compared to other FE lords, and I like the idea of a hero that uses light magic and healing.
2. Her motivations are clear. She wants to help people, she considers Daein her home, she loves Sothe, and she doesn't like the spotlight, as she's scared of what can happen if people find out she's branded. All her internal motivations are not only made clear, but explored, deconstructed, and reconstructed very effectively in her parts of the story.
3. Her character development was well done. She goes from trying to balance helping the people of Daein and staying out of the spotlight to hide her brand, to eventually accepting the spotlight by the end of part 1 if it means helping the people of Daein. In part 3, she struggles with the loss of her foresight as things become more chaotic, and struggles with the horrible catch 22 she and all of Daein is in as a result of the blood pact, and it goes far enough to make her look at herself and second guess what it means to lead, and what she's willing to do to help the people of Daein. It is very interestingly done, and frankly it really does a good job of making the player sympathise. In part 4, she struggles just a little bit with now having to work alongside Ike, a character she was bias against because of the Mad King's War, and she re-evaluates how she thinks of him after seeing the positive effect Ike had on Sothe, and seeing just why Sothe mentions him so often as an inspiration. It's just one moment, but it is a really good moment.
4. She is a Joan-of-Arc type character done well. The game explores what her becoming the "Silver-Haired Maiden" and hero of Daein means; how it affects her, how it affects how people think of her, etc. Her reasons for liberating her people strongly parallel Ike's, but how people see them is different. Soren even makes note of this in part 3 when describing Micaiah and what they know about her. 
5. As a unit, she can be pretty good. Her magic stat can become absurdly strong, and she gets a light magic version of the rapier.
6. Her design in part 1 is really cool. I'm not a fan of her later designs, but her initial one is really cool.
7. Her character dynamic with Sothe. Yeah; I understand how people might find their paired ending a bit weird, but I didn't mind it at all. In fact, I thought that Radiant Dawn did a good job of showing throughout the game that their feelings for each other were also romantic (even Ike; Ike of all people, could see it). I like how they interact throughout the game. I like the dialogue and the conversations they have with each other. I especially liked the moment in part 1 where Sothe mentions Ike when they're talking to Rafiel and Nailah, and Micaiah adds, "Right. Lord Ike, hero of the Crimean Liberation, leader of the Greil Mercenaries, and father of Sothe’s children…” And I personally think their paired ending makes perfect sense, unlike a certain radiant hero's ending...
8. In my very first playthrough, she maxed all her stats at level 19 of her third class. All of her stats. My family and I laughed as nothing went up for the final level up.

I'm sure there's more, but those are the reasons I can think of.

Things I didn't like about Micaiah:

1. As a unit, she can be difficult at times. Her speed and HP often mean you need to give her a seraph robe and a speedwing, and that isn't right. I get that she's supposed to be a glass cannon, but she needs to be able to double-attack, and either dodge or take enemy attacks. Sadly, sometimes she can't do either of those last two.
2. Um... She can only save Pelleas' life from the second playthrough onwards, and that stinks, though that's more a 2nd playthrough-exclusive problem than a problem with Micaiah.
3. Her Awakening DLC design and the fact that they made her a dark mage in Awakening.

Micaiah is a character that becomes cooler and cooler the most you decided to know about her, at least IMO. I mean, when I first know about her and her reputation I was afraid I would have a negative experience playing Radiant Dawn... But then I decided to know about her, and ended up loving her :wub:

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7 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Micaiah is a character that becomes cooler and cooler the most you decided to know about her, at least IMO. I mean, when I first know about her and her reputation I was afraid I would have a negative experience playing Radiant Dawn... But then I decided to know about her, and ended up loving her :wub:

I liked Micaiah from the get-go. Ike is still my favourite FE lord by far (as well as my favourite FE character), but Micaiah is definitely in the top 3 for me. 

 

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎19 at 9:16 AM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

The funny thing is that I'm not actually using Micaiah as an example of a Sue.

I'm using arguments that people used against me years ago when I mentioned liking Micaiah. Nothing of that sort has happened here thankfully and I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to call someone out or anything similar. I really wasn't, I just knew I could trust y'all to help me.

Anyway I'm actually using these examples to refute Sueness so go figure xD Thanks everyone! I appreciate it :)

A lot of people toss around the terms Mary Sue and Gary Sue without actually knowing what makes a character a Sue. OverlySarcasticProductions on YouTube explains what makes a character a Mary Sue better than I ever could, but I'll try my best.

A lot of people mistakenly refer to any character they think is too perfect as a Sue. That's not what makes a character a Sue. A Sue distorts the plot around them; making the story all about them in ways beyond them just being protagonist. The story essentially treats them as if they are the only thing in the fictional universe. They are the epitome of what happens when glorifying a character is valued over actually defining why the character even should be glorified. I'll give some examples to help illustrate:

Corrin is definitely a Sue. Corrin completely absorbs the plot of Fates, the way that Anankos' black hole absorbed bits of Valla. Glorifying the Corrin character is valued above actually establishing the Corrin character. 

Rey from Star Wars... is debatable. In my opinion, she doesn't completely fall into Sue category, but comes dangerously close, with one or two clear warning signs.

Ike is by no means a Sue. He's just a classic paragon character: a character who does good because they see good needing to be done, and acts as a catalyst for character development in others.

Micaiah is definitely not a Sue either. It's actually a little strange, considering many feel she was overshadowed by Ike in Radiant Dawn. An overshadowed Mary Sue... that's immensely oxymoronic.

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5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Corrin is definitely a Sue. Corrin completely absorbs the plot of Fates, the way that Anankos' black hole absorbed bits of Valla. Glorifying the Corrin character is valued above actually establishing the Corrin character. 

I don't think we can blame Corrin for that entirely, given that Fates in itself is written terribly.

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Rey from Star Wars... is debatable. In my opinion, she doesn't completely fall into Sue category, but comes dangerously close, with one or two clear warning signs.

Rey was in The Force Awakens, or at least just a bit. But she got knocked down a peg in The Last Jedi.

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10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I don't think we can blame Corrin for that entirely, given that Fates in itself is written terribly.

Of course not, and I didn't. I just pointed out that, by the actual definition of a Sue character, Corrin is one. Sue characters can (and often are) just a symptom of bad writing.

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Rey was in The Force Awakens, or at least just a bit. But she got knocked down a peg in The Last Jedi.

One reason why I said debatable. I do agree that she does exhibit fewer warning signs in The Last Jedi (it didn't make The Last Jedi any better, but I don't want to talk about that...).

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11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I don't think we can blame Corrin for that entirely, given that Fates in itself is written terribly.

I almost feel like making a topic about this. Blaming the writing as a whole, an abstract collective all-pervasive thing, is very reasonable and I buy it. But at the same time, don't individual things make up the writing? If we say Corrin wasn't bad it was the writing, Camilla wasn't bad, Garon wasn't bad, Xander wasn't bad, Valla wasn't bad.... what is left in the writing to blame?

When one says someone isn't to blame, perhaps they mean the idea of X isn't to blame, only the execution and some particular unnecessary details that got attached to them. The idea of Corrin as a naive young hostage raised in a bomb shelter and forced to choose between two families and two nations is good, but the plot distortionism and the fact they aren't really related to the Hoshidans are terrible execution and an unnecessary detail respectively.

 

And I'll echo that Micaiah is far from perfect. Maybe the whole "I'm the True Apostle" thing would be an issue since her being it comes out of nowhere and has the effect of making one question why Sanaki came so much later, but this is not actually formally brought up until the ending. Part 3 should put a huge damper on the idea she is perfect or even hogs up the plot.

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2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I almost feel like making a topic about this. Blaming the writing as a whole, an abstract collective all-pervasive thing, is very reasonable and I buy it. But at the same time, don't individual things make up the writing? If we say Corrin wasn't bad it was the writing, Camilla wasn't bad, Garon wasn't bad, Xander wasn't bad, Valla wasn't bad.... what is left in the writing to blame?

When one says someone isn't to blame, perhaps they mean the idea of X isn't to blame, only the execution and some particular unnecessary details that got attached to them. The idea of Corrin as a naive young hostage raised in a bomb shelter and forced to choose between two families and two nations is good, but the plot distortionism and the fact they aren't really related to the Hoshidans are terrible execution and an unnecessary detail respectively.

Sure we can blame it mostly on the writing. The writing was intended to be about a case of being able to be a moral grey story, where neither side is truly good nor evil, because both have their issues. Corrin was meant to be a real gap in both sides. You can either fight the invading nation and correct it with that, or correct the issue from inside. But somewhere along the way, it became much less about that, and more on "What Corrin says is right". 

The writing itself deviated from what it was supposed to do, and focused on just making Nohr into an evil nation almost entirely, and Hoshido was completely in the right. Not to mention, based on how Xander is in the Supports, he acts completely contradictory in the story. 

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And I'll echo that Micaiah is far from perfect. Maybe the whole "I'm the True Apostle" thing would be an issue since her being it comes out of nowhere and has the effect of making one question why Sanaki came so much later, but this is not actually formally brought up until the ending. Part 3 should put a huge damper on the idea she is perfect or even hogs up the plot.

Well, Radiant Dawn was the game that forced a lot of things to happen. In fact, Radiant Dawn actually had the exact same issue that Awakening did, being that it was crammed too much. Of course, because RD was on the Wii, there was a lot of to put into that game than the 3DS that Awakening had, so RD wasn't as crammed.

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On 1/20/2018 at 7:40 PM, vanguard333 said:

Overall, I thought Micaiah was a good character. I don't feel like she got overshadowed by Ike, as she had all of part 1 being her story, as well as a few chapters in part 3, and she spent part 4 being the host of Yune, yet still able to get her own dialogue. But this is just my opinion. Would perhaps a little more representation helped? Sure. Was there plenty already in a game with multiple lords? I personally think there was.

Things I liked about Micaiah (in no particular order):

1. No swords. She uses light magic and can heal people, and her reasons for having these abilities is clear. It helps her stand out compared to other FE lords, and I like the idea of a hero that uses light magic and healing.
2. Her motivations are clear. She wants to help people, she considers Daein her home, she loves Sothe, and she doesn't like the spotlight, as she's scared of what can happen if people find out she's branded. All her internal motivations are not only made clear, but explored, deconstructed, and reconstructed very effectively in her parts of the story.
3. Her character development was well done. She goes from trying to balance helping the people of Daein and staying out of the spotlight to hide her brand, to eventually accepting the spotlight by the end of part 1 if it means helping the people of Daein. In part 3, she struggles with the loss of her foresight as things become more chaotic, and struggles with the horrible catch 22 she and all of Daein is in as a result of the blood pact, and it goes far enough to make her look at herself and second guess what it means to lead, and what she's willing to do to help the people of Daein. It is very interestingly done, and frankly it really does a good job of making the player sympathise. In part 4, she struggles just a little bit with now having to work alongside Ike, a character she was bias against because of the Mad King's War, and she re-evaluates how she thinks of him after seeing the positive effect Ike had on Sothe, and seeing just why Sothe mentions him so often as an inspiration. It's just one moment, but it is a really good moment.
4. She is a Joan-of-Arc type character done well. The game explores what her becoming the "Silver-Haired Maiden" and hero of Daein means; how it affects her, how it affects how people think of her, etc. Her reasons for liberating her people strongly parallel Ike's, but how people see them is different. Soren even makes note of this in part 3 when describing Micaiah and what they know about her. 
5. As a unit, she can be pretty good. Her magic stat can become absurdly strong, and she gets a light magic version of the rapier.
6. Her design in part 1 is really cool. I'm not a fan of her later designs, but her initial one is really cool.
7. Her character dynamic with Sothe. Yeah; I understand how people might find their paired ending a bit weird, but I didn't mind it at all. In fact, I thought that Radiant Dawn did a good job of showing throughout the game that their feelings for each other were also romantic (even Ike; Ike of all people, could see it). I like how they interact throughout the game. I like the dialogue and the conversations they have with each other. I especially liked the moment in part 1 where Sothe mentions Ike when they're talking to Rafiel and Nailah, and Micaiah adds, "Right. Lord Ike, hero of the Crimean Liberation, leader of the Greil Mercenaries, and father of Sothe’s children…” And I personally think their paired ending makes perfect sense, unlike a certain radiant hero's ending...
8. In my very first playthrough, she maxed all her stats at level 19 of her third class. All of her stats. My family and I laughed as nothing went up for the final level up.

I'm sure there's more, but those are the reasons I can think of.

Things I didn't like about Micaiah:

1. As a unit, she can be difficult at times. Her speed and HP often mean you need to give her a seraph robe and a speedwing, and that isn't right. I get that she's supposed to be a glass cannon, but she needs to be able to double-attack, and either dodge or take enemy attacks. Sadly, sometimes she can't do either of those last two.
2. Um... She can only save Pelleas' life from the second playthrough onwards, and that stinks, though that's more a 2nd playthrough-exclusive problem than a problem with Micaiah.
3. Her Awakening DLC design and the fact that they made her a dark mage in Awakening.

That's a nice summary. Though I prefer her second tier design the most. I've always wondered why people dislike Micaiah for having an initial dislike of Ike even though she grows out of it. I don't see people saying Jill sucks because she was racist even though she grew out of it. 

I actually like how she has to sacrifice Pelleas' life it forces her to sacrifice a loved one even though she couldn't in chapter 3-12.

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