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The supports in this game are really good


DragonFlames
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35 minutes ago, DIO said:

Fredrick doting on Lucina is quite frankly heartwarming; especially their shared passion for knitting.

It is kind of adorable. Maybe her love for stuff like that is why her cape often looks to be in better shape than Chrom's despite the whole apocalypse thing. Look, I like you Lucina, but you should really look worse for the wear.

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On 11/7/2017 at 6:08 AM, Arthur97 said:

I actually just got that one recently and I loved it. I'll also say that I do kind of like Xander's even if I think something's off about his voice.

Since it's still David Stanbra doing the voice, and he sounds perfectly fine in every other game Xander speaks in, I think it's a case of some poor voice direction. Really gets noticeable with some of the longer lines. 

As for the conversations I've seen, I particularly enjoyed Lyn x Xander and Lianna x Leo. The former is nice little reflection on their retainers, and some good laughs at Laslow and Sain being womanizers (and bad at it). As for the latter, it's a nice look into the ruling structures of the two kingdoms, and some further details into the mess that is Nohr's royal siblings and their mothers. 

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I'll expect, even with the low expectations I had for this game's script writing, the supports are outstanding.

Lucina was already a favorite of mine, and I'm so glad that her supports gave her a lot more context than Awakening's supports did. Her support with Elise really highlights how she's ended up a very serious person who really doesn't know when or even how to loosen up. Hinoka's line of "You've gone through things that would break most people," really highlights why Lucina is one of my favorite heroines in the franchise.

Although, if there's one thing I wish had been done better, it's Rowan and Lianna's supports. Don't get me wrong, I don't think any of their supports are bad. The one thing that gets me is that I feel like their supports don't really show a lot and end up leaving both characters as kind of of one-note. For example, I get the feeling that Rowan's relationship with his dad and his eventual passing is what lead to his masculinity complex. Problem is that his supports don't elaborate a whole lot about it. As for Lianna, she doesn't get to show off much other than the fact that she lacks self-confidence. It was implied in other materials that she's very studious. I wish that got to be showed off more.

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I will say there's been something bugging me about a particular support. Sakura/Lissa has the former suddenly compare Azura to Chrom, saying she is just as reckless as him on the battlefield. We certainly know she's self-sacrificing, but this has never really extended to the battlefield.

I found this jarring since Sakura has at least two other siblings (Hinoka and especially Takumi) known for throwing themselves at the enemy with little regard for their own safety (Hinoka even has the whole "protect others at the cost of yourself" angle down). It felt strannge that she wouldn't mention them first in this context. I know it was just to get to "Wanna be like big sis." part of the convo and drawing comparison between Azura and Emmeryn, but it felt clumsily executed. At least have her casually mention Hinoka and Takumi before mentioning Azura being "a different kind of reckless" or something.

Another support I really didn't like was Camilla/Sakura. I know it was supposed to be comedic, but it made me feel incredibly uncomfortable. Just Camilla slowly getting Sakura to trust her before reverting to outright harassment despite Sakura's vehement protests. She gives off some serious predatory vibes towards the end, and I was really disturbed to see people prasing her behaviour or even suggesting shipping. On this basis... yeah no this was almost as messed up as Soleil/Ophelia.

Finally, there are a few localization changes I am not too fond of. The game is overall localized much better than Fates was, but there's still a couple of instances that made me tilt my head:

Removing any jokes about Leon and Takumi's insecurity in their own masculinity. I.e: Lissa putting a flower ribbon in Takumi's hair and Leon hastily cutting Frederick off before he can mention how Leon apparently wore women's clothing (or some other feminine item) on accident. Now I know this is not a big deal, but I was still mystefied by the decision to cut these. Since it happened in both cases, I am sensing the pattern here is: teenage boys freaking out over girly stuff could be seen as offensive, better cut it. A) I'd argue these instances were harmless, and didn't give off any actual misogynist vibes. And B) Pretty rich, when they've already faithfully translated Leon's verbal abuse of his own son for his feminine interests. It's like putting out a candle when the house is already burning down around you. 

 Another localization change I was baffled by (though I know the reason for it) was in Elise and Lissa's support. In the original, Lissa mentions that she imagines adults staying up late and drinking sake. Then suggests what is essentially a sleepover, but makes sure to mention they are still too young for sake (so they should stick to candy). I admit to not being familiar with American law on this, but is mentioning alcohol forbidden in "family friendly" games, even in such a benign context?                                                 What realy completed the experience for me was what they changed it too: battle tactics. Can't have kids talking about alcohol, so let's replace it with war the most child-friendly of topics. Not trying to insult, but that's got to be the most 'murica feeling a localization has given me so far. "Any mention of alcohol corrupts children. Here, let them mention the art of killing instead."

Sorry for rambling so long. None of these things are truly deal-breakers for me, but I thought I should mention the misgivings I have. It's a sign of good writing/a good localization, that these are the only ones I have so far though.

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12 hours ago, Nanima said:

 Another localization change I was baffled by (though I know the reason for it) was in Elise and Lissa's support. In the original, Lissa mentions that she imagines adults staying up late and drinking sake. Then suggests what is essentially a sleepover, but makes sure to mention they are still too young for sake (so they should stick to candy). I admit to not being familiar with American law on this, but is mentioning alcohol forbidden in "family friendly" games, even in such a benign context?                                                 What realy completed the experience for me was what they changed it too: battle tactics. Can't have kids talking about alcohol, so let's replace it with war the most child-friendly of topics. Not trying to insult, but that's got to be the most 'murica feeling a localization has given me so far. "Any mention of alcohol corrupts children. Here, let them mention the art of killing instead."

Alcohol reference can bump the rating up, though it is rather odd when previous Fire Emblem games- Awakening and Shadows of Valentia, at least -had no problem referencing them. I don't recall any alcohol mention in Fates, though, so maybe Treehouse is just more puritanical about that than 8-4.

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12 hours ago, Nanima said:

I will say there's been something bugging me about a particular support. Sakura/Lissa has the former suddenly compare Azura to Chrom, saying she is just as reckless as him on the battlefield. We certainly know she's self-sacrificing, but this has never really extended to the battlefield.

I found this jarring since Sakura has at least two other siblings (Hinoka and especially Takumi) known for throwing themselves at the enemy with little regard for their own safety (Hinoka even has the whole "protect others at the cost of yourself" angle down). It felt strannge that she wouldn't mention them first in this context. I know it was just to get to "Wanna be like big sis." part of the convo and drawing comparison between Azura and Emmeryn, but it felt clumsily executed. At least have her casually mention Hinoka and Takumi before mentioning Azura being "a different kind of reckless" or something.

Another support I really didn't like was Camilla/Sakura. I know it was supposed to be comedic, but it made me feel incredibly uncomfortable. Just Camilla slowly getting Sakura to trust her before reverting to outright harassment despite Sakura's vehement protests. She gives off some serious predatory vibes towards the end, and I was really disturbed to see people prasing her behaviour or even suggesting shipping. On this basis... yeah no this was almost as messed up as Soleil/Ophelia.

Finally, there are a few localization changes I am not too fond of. The game is overall localized much better than Fates was, but there's still a couple of instances that made me tilt my head:

Removing any jokes about Leon and Takumi's insecurity in their own masculinity. I.e: Lissa putting a flower ribbon in Takumi's hair and Leon hastily cutting Frederick off before he can mention how Leon apparently wore women's clothing (or some other feminine item) on accident. Now I know this is not a big deal, but I was still mystefied by the decision to cut these. Since it happened in both cases, I am sensing the pattern here is: teenage boys freaking out over girly stuff could be seen as offensive, better cut it. A) I'd argue these instances were harmless, and didn't give off any actual misogynist vibes. And B) Pretty rich, when they've already faithfully translated Leon's verbal abuse of his own son for his feminine interests. It's like putting out a candle when the house is already burning down around you. 

 Another localization change I was baffled by (though I know the reason for it) was in Elise and Lissa's support. In the original, Lissa mentions that she imagines adults staying up late and drinking sake. Then suggests what is essentially a sleepover, but makes sure to mention they are still too young for sake (so they should stick to candy). I admit to not being familiar with American law on this, but is mentioning alcohol forbidden in "family friendly" games, even in such a benign context?                                                 What realy completed the experience for me was what they changed it too: battle tactics. Can't have kids talking about alcohol, so let's replace it with war the most child-friendly of topics. Not trying to insult, but that's got to be the most 'murica feeling a localization has given me so far. "Any mention of alcohol corrupts children. Here, let them mention the art of killing instead."

Sorry for rambling so long. None of these things are truly deal-breakers for me, but I thought I should mention the misgivings I have. It's a sign of good writing/a good localization, that these are the only ones I have so far though.

Mentions of alcohol, and underaged drinking in particular, can actually boost up the rating, yes. Ratings can be kind of weird,  but i guess battle tactics was seen as further removed from the audience than drinking.  It's not quite the same, but you can see the thing happen in other series for other, seemingly more minor things: pokemon had to get a different rating for its VC releases in some places because they couldn't remove the game corner (and its why the corner hasn't been seen in several years) despite some of the things tha can be mentioned or implied in the text especially in later titles, or smash bros had to remove its Tharja trophy (this was done in all releases, incidentally) despite <take your pick>.

Leon & Takumi's "no homo" moments were probably removed while the forrest stuff wasn't probably since it was easier to scrub unlike Leo being a disaster of a father (in a game full of not one single good father). It probably helped that Leo backed off a bit by the end of the paralogue I guess? There's a lot to be said about Fates' handling of...well...many things, even before going into localization choices or lack there of.

 

actually you can kind of see this in Shadows of Valentia, but like the Tharja trophy it wasn't just a localization change: alcohol was in the game but no one, not even those of legal age, could drink it. It was a totally scrapped mechanic presumably because it could show drinking. 

Edited by r_n
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5 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

Alcohol reference can bump the rating up, though it is rather odd when previous Fire Emblem games- Awakening and Shadows of Valentia, at least -had no problem referencing them. I don't recall any alcohol mention in Fates, though, so maybe Treehouse is just more puritanical about that than 8-4.

Could possibly be because neither game had implications of underage drinking, but what do I know.

5 hours ago, r_n said:

actually you can kind of see this in Shadows of Valentia, but like the Tharja trophy it wasn't just a localization change: alcohol was in the game but no one, not even those of legal age, could drink it. It was a totally scrapped mechanic presumably because it could show drinking. 

From what I heard, the reason why alcohol was scrapped as an item to consume was because it was going to be limited to characters of proper age but that would mean characters not of age would have less options.

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31 minutes ago, Sentinel07 said:

Could possibly be because neither game had implications of underage drinking, but what do I know.

From what I heard, the reason why alcohol was scrapped as an item to consume was because it was going to be limited to characters of proper age but that would mean characters not of age would have less options.

Isn't there still wine?

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6 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Isn't there still wine?

The items are still in the game, but they serve no purpose other than being sold for gold or offered to Mila (the drunk goddess). Data suggests they were originally consumable by units whose age are 20 or older.

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16 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

The items are still in the game, but they serve no purpose other than being sold for gold or offered to Mila (the drunk goddess). Data suggests they were originally consumable by units whose age are 20 or older.

Huh, I thought they were consumable.

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I haven’t gotten many supports yet but Lucina and Lissa’s support was great in the sense that Lucina finally has some much needed interaction with her aunt but I disliked that it was basically a copy/paste support from one of Lucina’s siblings supports.

I’m glad to see that the Anna from warriors isn’t as greedy as her other counterparts especially Fates Anna. She shows interest in dating in Caeda’s conversation and is pretty generous to Ryoma offering to get him whatever he wants for simply helping her carry some boxes and all that just make her seem more human compared to the other Annas

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On 11/7/2017 at 4:06 AM, Jedi said:

Robin & Corrin both benefit the most from Warriors supports not being chained to their respective plots and it shows alot between their own support too. 

They are allowed to actually be characters.

I don't I'll ever understand this mindset. Robin was always supposed to be a self-insert character, how does detriment them if their purpose is to have multiple interpretation on themselves. Can't say the same about Corrin though.

 

That being said, even though the vast majority of the support were very (surprisingly & impressively) well done, Celica's support made me unintentionally dislike her character ore. I've never had a problem with her before, but her supports just keeps highlghting how much a strawman she is by being a pacifist. It as if IS wants to hammer it in on how wrong being pacifist is which only worsen Celica's character.

Edited by Zangetsu
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33 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

That being said, even though the vast majority of the support were very (surprisingly & impressively) well done, Celica's support made me unintentionally dislike her character ore. I've never had a problem with her before, but supports just keeps highlghting how much a strawman she is by being a pacifist. It's IS wants to hammer it in on how wrong being pacifist is which only worsen Celica's character.

I think them portraying actual war mongers that kill first and ask questions later as the good guys in Fire Emblem Fates (that being the two Royal families and Azura) is proof enough that IS apparently thinks war = awesome (it's like they adopted the mindset of the US government). 
I mean, sure, the conflict in Echoes was already beyond saving through talking, but I think Celica trying her everything to solve the conflict peacefully despite everything is very commendable, if idealistic.
I think I am one of the few people left that genuinely like Celica as a character.

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3 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

I think them portraying actual war mongers that kill first and ask questions later as the good guys in Fire Emblem Fates (that being the two Royal families and Azura) is proof enough that IS apparently thinks war = awesome (it's like they adopted the mindset of the US government). 
I mean, sure, the conflict in Echoes was already beyond saving through talking, but I think Celica trying her everything to solve the conflict peacefully despite everything is very commendable, if idealistic.
I think I am one of the few people left that genuinely like Celica as a character.

Which is fine, but ultimately it's Alm's belief what saved the day not Celica's. She kept insisting that having faith was the answer but Echoes'/Gaiden's story just set up on how thoroughly wrong she was rather than "hey she might have a point."

 

Her support with Xander only worsen my opinion on her because as hypocritical Xander's dialogue were, I find myself siding on Xander's argument despite how contradictive  it is.

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I think the problem with Celica and Eirika types are that they try long past the point of no return when most would realize that talking will do nothing. Wanting peace is commendable, but sometimes you just have to realize that you have to fight. The fact that Celica almost seems to demean Marth for fighting is irritating. Plus, this is a war strategy series. We as players know the talking won't work, so it kind of wastes time.

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1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

I think I am one of the few people left that genuinely like Celica as a character.

 

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

I think the problem with Celica and Eirika types are that they try long past the point of no return when most would realize that talking will do nothing. Wanting peace is commendable, but sometimes you just have to realize that you have to fight. The fact that Celica almost seems to demean Marth for fighting is irritating. Plus, this is a war strategy series. We as players know the talking won't work, so it kind of wastes time.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if we actually had an FE situation where talking worked real well, and I don't mean a simple red-to-blue recruitment. Something like "Character A thinks they have to destroy Country B who is against them" but "Character C, after only minor conflict with Country B, is able to get them to cease hostilities via diplomacy". Thus showing that peace can be better than war. Country D who Country B was allied to (or just so happened to be fighting protags independently) would still exist for a slaughtering.

 

Listening to what everyone is saying about supports in this game, while the CBA style typical to FE works for some character relationships, perhaps it isn't the be all end all. One longer conversation as opposed to three small ones might work better in some circumstances.

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3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Listening to what everyone is saying about supports in this game, while the CBA style typical to FE works for some character relationships, perhaps it isn't the be all end all. One longer conversation as opposed to three small ones might work better in some circumstances.

I feel that the supports in this game work better as one long conversation, rather than characters saying that the conversation can continue later.  I feel a bit annoyed that some Fire Emblem supports conversation that are hiding details later in the support chain. Just come out with it.

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I wouldn't call most of them great, but the supports are generally serviceable and decent. Most of the comedy ones feel like wasted opportunities, though. And I'm going to disagree with the general consensus in that I don't like the supports being one lump conversation; in a lot of cases, they just feel like support chains from the main games that the C and B convos were cut out of, leaving a resolution with no indication of how we got to that point.

4 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

That being said, even though the vast majority of the support were very (surprisingly & impressively) well done, Celica's support made me unintentionally dislike her character ore. I've never had a problem with her before, but supports just keeps highlghting how much a strawman she is by being a pacifist. It as if IS wants to hammer it in on how wrong being pacifist is which only worsen Celica's character.

Celica's characterization in Warriors is baffling to me because of how completely disconnected it is from her Gaiden and Echoes characterizations. Celica isn't a pacifist in Gaiden or Echoes, nor is she even particularly averse to fighting or war beyond normal human ways in general; she had two reasons for wanting the war with Rigel to not happen (Alm dying and thinking Mila would fix everything), and neither of them are because she's a pacifist. 

3 hours ago, Arthur97 said:

I think the problem with Celica and Eirika types are that they try long past the point of no return when most would realize that talking will do nothing. Wanting peace is commendable, but sometimes you just have to realize that you have to fight. The fact that Celica almost seems to demean Marth for fighting is irritating. Plus, this is a war strategy series. We as players know the talking won't work, so it kind of wastes time.

Which is completely untrue of both characters outside Warriors and fandom representation. Eirika has a rough time adjusting to combat, but she never tries to go the diplomatic route with Grado, and becomes a very competent military leader if her route is chosen. Celica, meanwhile, had ulterior motives for wanting peace at that point that she spells out blatantly in Chapter 5 in both versions of her game.

Edited by Azure Sen
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8 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

Which is fine, but ultimately it's Alm's belief what saved the day not Celica's. She kept insisting that having faith was the answer but Echoes'/Gaiden's story just set up on how thoroughly wrong she was rather than "hey she might have a point."

 

Her support with Xander only worsen my opinion on her because as hypocritical Xander's dialogue were, I find myself siding on Xander's argument despite how contradictive  it is.

If someone has a point, they have a point. No matter who they are or what they said beforehand. At least that's how I see it.

And you're right on Echoes' story, of course. They did promote Alm's approach as the 'right' one and I do think they could have handled that a bit better in the game (though as a non-religious person myself, I find myself siding with Alm's approach more than Celica's), like, showing us they both have a point, like you said.
I personally believe that the writers wanted to show us Celica's devotion and faith in Mila and Duma (since she has been raised in a very religious environment and all) and that said faith was ultimately misplaced, since Duma went irreparably insane and Mila didn't have enough strength left in her to change that.
It doesn't exactly make either her character or the writing bad to me, is all I'm saying.

@AzureSen

Quote

Eirika has a rough time adjusting to combat, but she never tries to go the diplomatic route with Grado, and becomes a very competent military leader if her route is chosen. Celica, meanwhile, had ulterior motives for wanting peace at that point that she spells out blatantly in Chapter 5 in both versions of her game.

Which is why I like both of them. They're realistic in how they are portrayed and they actually grow as characters and humans.

Edited by DragonFlames
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4 hours ago, Azure Sen said:

Celica's characterization in Warriors is baffling to me because of how completely disconnected it is from her Gaiden and Echoes characterizations. Celica isn't a pacifist in Gaiden or Echoes, nor is she even particularly averse to fighting or war beyond normal human ways in general; she had two reasons for wanting the war with Rigel to not happen (Alm dying and thinking Mila would fix everything), and neither of them are because she's a pacifist.

I heard, I don't know the source, that the Celica in this game was taken from partway into SoV's development. Her ultimate weapon is the Ladyblade and not Beloved Zofia correct? And the History Map for her is based on Gaiden and not SoV? (I don't actually have FEW.) Therefore this Celica is an unpolished in-between.

5 hours ago, Azure Sen said:

And I'm going to disagree with the general consensus in that I don't like the supports being one lump conversation; in a lot of cases, they just feel like support chains from the main games that the C and B convos were cut out of, leaving a resolution with no indication of how we got to that point.

It's conflicting to me. Sometimes you need the buildup in supports, other times it feels like filler. Sometimes "Buildup-Buildup-Climax", other times I want "Buildup-Climax-Aftermath" and others yet I want "Buildup-One Topic-Another Topic"

For an example I consider SothexTormod padded out in the C and B:

Spoiler

C Support

Tormod: Hey, you! You were with us during the attack the other day, right?
Sothe: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Tormod: No, I remember you! I saw you shanking enemy soldiers with that tiny little blade of yours. You were amazing! By the way, did you know we’re almost the same age? Oh, sorry… I’m Tormod. I may not look like it, but I’m pretty much the most dangerous mage around.
Sothe: …
Tormod: And you are?
Sothe: Sothe.
Tormod: It’s nice to meet you, Sothe! By the way, why are you working as a mercenary with this army?
Sothe: You don’t need to know that.
Tormod: Hey! What’s with you?! No need to be rude!

B Support

Tormod: Hello, Sothe!
Sothe: …
Tormod: I was thinking… We’re both lethal mercenaries and we’re both about the same age, so we should be friends!
Sothe: I don’t think so.
Tormod: No? Well, you can say that, but I’m still going to be your friend. You’ll see!
Sothe: You’re insane.
Tormod: Yeah…? Well…maybe I am! But it’s not like being my friend is going to hurt you!

A Support

[Part 1]

Tormod: Hello, friend.
Sothe: Give it up. We’re not friends.
Tormod: You’re going to be my friend whether you like or not.

[Part 2 (Muarim is alive)]

Sothe: Why are you so determined?
Tormod: It’s Muarim.
Sothe: Muarim? You mean that tiger? What about him?
Tormod: Well, he looks sad every time I see him… He thinks it’s his fault that I don’t have any beorc friends. That’s why I wanted you to be my friend–to make him feel better.
Sothe: You should have said as much. Then I wouldn’t have thought you were crazy.
Tormod: That changes things?
Sothe: Sure.
Tormod: Why?
Sothe: He’s like a father to you. I understand why you don’t want to cause him grief. I also have…someone…who is like a parent to me.

[Part 2 (Muarim died)]

Sothe: Why are you so determined to be my friend?
Tormod: It’s Muarim.
Sothe: Muarim? You mean that tiger? What about him?
Tormod: Well, back when he was alive, he used to worry about me not having any beorc friends. That’s why I wanted you to be my friend–to honor his memory.
Sothe: You should have said as much. Then I wouldn’t have thought you were crazy.
Tormod: That changes things?
Sothe: Sure.
Tormod: Why?
Sothe: He was like a father to you. I understand why you wouldn’t want his spirit to worry. I also have…someone…who is like a parent to me.

[Part 3]

Tormod: Oh, I get it! Hey, you grew up a lot like me, then! We’re going to be best friends forever!
Sothe: Er…well… We’ll talk. Sometimes. But don’t get the idea that we’re best friends!
Tormod: Why? We have so much in common!
Sothe: No offense, Tormod, but thieves are loners. I can’t have you tagging along, snapping twigs and making lots of noise!

On the other hand, TormodxCalill does "Buildup-Buildup-Climax" well:

Spoiler

C Support

Tormod: Excuse me, ma’am?
Calill: …
Tormod: Um… Excuse me, Calill?
Calill: Hmph! I won’t answer unless you call me… A lady. A pretty lady!
Tormod: Nuts to that!
Calill: Well then, you can just forget it. I won’t waste my time teaching magic to a brat like you.
Tormod: Hey, pretty lady! Beautiful lady? Would you please teach me magic?
Calill: What a selfish brat! What about the spells I taught you last week? I won’t teach you anything new until you’ve mastered those.
Tormod: Those? Pshaw! I aced them! Heck, I aced everything in this book! I’m a magic genius!

Calill: Boastfulness does not become you, dear. And your brash tongue won’t make me teach you any faster.
Tormod: Yeah? I’ll show you! Um… I mean… Can you make sure I’m doing them right? Please? Pretty lady?
Calill: Fine, fine. Show me what you can do. Sigh… So much work and so little time…

B Support

Calill: Oh, my heavens! Tormod! Aaaah! Enough! That’s enough! We’re done for today.
Tormod: Oh, come on! Teach me more magic! I won’t catch the drapes on fire again, I promise!
Calill: No way! By the goddess, I’ll be lucky to get out of here with my eyebrows still affixed to my forehead.
Tormod: But I can do better! I know it! I already learned fire, thunder, and wind!
Calill: Yes, yes, I’ll admit that you’re a quick learner. And, truth be told, you have a lot of raw talent.
Tormod: Yeah, I knew it!
Calill: But you lack discipline! You’re impatient. And rash. You can learn new spells all day, but you won’t truly master any of them until you know each one intimately.
Tormod: You’re just mad because I’m more talented than you! You don’t want me to learn anything because you know I’m the best!
Calill: Oh, why did I ever agree to this… Now listen here, child. And listen well. If you keep up this half-baked spell casting, you’re going to have a serious accident someday.
Tormod: An accident?
Calill: Magic doesn’t react well when miscast. I’ve seen fingers get blown off… And you’ll be lucky if it’s just a finger! Sometimes it’s an arm or a leg… And in really unfortunate cases, it can take a life!
Tormod: Heck! I’m not afraid!
Calill: I didn’t say YOUR fingers or YOUR life!
Tormod: What? You?
Calill: Me, Commander Ike, anyone! We can’t afford to have you overshoot our enemies and rain death down on us instead!
Tormod: …
Calill: Tormod, magic is unlike any other weapon. It does not forgive. If you lose concentration… If you hesitate… If you fail to respect it… People will die. Friends…will die.
Tormod: I’m sorry.
Calill: Then study the basics. After all, you don’t want to be a burden to your friends do you?
Tormod: No!

A Support

Tormod: Hey, pretty lady! What do you think of my magic now?
Calill: Hmm, let’s see…
Tormod: Yeah?
Calill: You’ve worked very hard. I have nothing more to teach you.
Tormod: Whooo-hoo! Now I’m a mage, too!
Calill: Yes, I suppose you could say that. You have inspired me, Tormod. Your passion makes me want to study more of the arcane arts. I think I’ll start learning magic again.
Tormod: What? Are there still things that you need to learn?
Calill: Ha ha ha! Oh, Tormod. I have only shown you the tip of the magical iceberg. Anyone can learn that much with hard work and practice. Maybe not as quickly as you, but… Whether you can go further, however, depends on your own essence.
Tormod: My essence?
Calill: The abilities that you were born with… or lack. Having a certain essence is the key to mastering magic.
Tormod: Wh-what do you think? Do I have a magical essence?
Calill: Sorry, Tormod. But you and I, we’re nothing special. Some talent, yes. But not the true essence.
Tormod: Then…this is it? This is as far as I’ll go? I can’t be the world’s mightiest mage, no matter how hard I try?

Calill: Well, there is a way to improve magical abilites beyond one’s essence, but… even that has limits. And a price.
Tormod: What kind of way?
Calill: You let a spirit come into your body. It’s called Spirit Charming.
Tormod: That sounds crazy!
Calill: Some would say so. Magic comes from these spirits–from their interactions with the natural world. If you take that power into your body, your magic will see a dramatic and powerful improvement. In plain language, you turn your body into bait. You get better magic, and the spirit gets…you.
Tormod: W-what? It…it EATS you?
Calill: As I understand it…the spirit will slowly consume your soul in exchange for essence. So I suggest you not make such a bargain unless you’re absolutely prepared.
Tormod: Who would do such a thing?
Calill: Oh, there are many people… I’m sure the intelligence officer of this mercenary group is one of them.
Tormod: You mean that Soren fellow?
Calill: You know the mark on his forehead? That’s what happens when you cut a deal with a spirit.
Tormod: Are you serious? Wait, I’ve seen those marks before! The old man in the desert who taught me magic had one on the palm!
Calill: Many magic users in Begnion and Daein hide such marks. They fear being confused with the Branded.
Tormod: Branded? What’s that?
Calill: Never mind that! Just listen to me. Don’t cut deals with spirits. The price is too steep.
Tormod: But I want to be strong! I want–
Calill: You can still improve your magic without making such a bargain. Look, we’re both nobodies in the big scheme of things. Let’s just try to help each other out.
Tormod: Oh…all right. I’ll work hard to be the most average mage I can be!
Calill: Ha ha ha! Now you’re talking!!

 

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I was too busy screaming at the Xander half of the support to do anything than go "DON"T AGREE WITH HIM" at celica. Ryoma or Chrom could have subbed in for Xander's half and I'd be way less mad at video game characterizations

And yeah, Celica was added late into the game before SoV was done iirc, so they probably didn't have a full set of characterization to go off of. I wouldn't be surprised if later dlc supports line up more with SoV at the cost of being a bit off compared with the rest of her supports.

 

 

Typing this out made me realize Celica actually doesn't have a support with Chrom. Which is surprising, he makes a good stand in for Alm. Maybe in Warriors 2, and maybe it will have Walhart and Alm...that'd be fun.

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1 hour ago, r_n said:

I was too busy screaming at the Xander half of the support to do anything than go "DON"T AGREE WITH HIM" at celica. Ryoma or Chrom could have subbed in for Xander's half and I'd be way less mad at video game characterizations

And yeah, Celica was added late into the game before SoV was done iirc, so they probably didn't have a full set of characterization to go off of. I wouldn't be surprised if later dlc supports line up more with SoV at the cost of being a bit off compared with the rest of her supports.

 

 

Typing this out made me realize Celica actually doesn't have a support with Chrom. Which is surprising, he makes a good stand in for Alm. Maybe in Warriors 2, and maybe it will have Walhart and Alm...that'd be fun.

Oddly enough, she doesn't support with any Awakening character. Maybe they didn't want them to recognize her? Though, how does she know about the war of Shadows, but not know who Marth is?

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2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

If someone has a point, they have a point. No matter who they are or what they said beforehand. At least that's how I see it.

And you're right on Echoes' story, of course. They did promote Alm's approach as the 'right' one and I do think they could have handled that a bit better in the game (though as a non-religious person myself, I find myself siding with Alm's approach more than Celica's), like, showing us they both have a point, like you said.
I personally believe that the writers wanted to show us Celica's devotion and faith in Mila and Duma (since she has been raised in a very religious environment and all) and that said faith was ultimately misplaced, since Duma went irreparably insane and Mila didn't have enough strength left in her to change that.
It doesn't exactly make either her character or the writing bad to me, is all I'm saying.

I feel like topic should just be it's own thread regarding Celica's actions & behavior rather than discussing in the support system's quality for Warriors. Though I do want make it clear, I don't feel like Celica's depiction is offensive nor am I a religious person.  However, it's getting kinda repetitive how much of a strawman for those who have faith are supposed to be. Ironically, I don't see any of this problem with Silques but then again I forgot what was her journey goal was supposed to be about. 

 

8 hours ago, Azure Sen said:

Celica's characterization in Warriors is baffling to me because of how completely disconnected it is from her Gaiden and Echoes characterizations. Celica isn't a pacifist in Gaiden or Echoes, nor is she even particularly averse to fighting or war beyond normal human ways in general; she had two reasons for wanting the war with Rigel to not happen (Alm dying and thinking Mila would fix everything), and neither of them are because she's a pacifist.

I don't remember everything in Echoes, but I specifically recall Celica being very preachy on Alm's stance on going to war when they were re-united. Alm makes it clear he's not interested in gaining power but rather trying to end the war as soon as possible & when they do defeat the forces of Rigel is to find the rumored missing Zofian princess. The conversation ends with Celica berating at Alm & calling him jerk. Granted, they made amends in the next act but she wasn't exactly being reasonable to Alm there.

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11 hours ago, Azure Sen said:

Which is completely untrue of both characters outside Warriors and fandom representation. Eirika has a rough time adjusting to combat, but she never tries to go the diplomatic route with Grado, and becomes a very competent military leader if her route is chosen. Celica, meanwhile, had ulterior motives for wanting peace at that point that she spells out blatantly in Chapter 5 in both versions of her game.

There is a touch of it in her (Eirika's) Heroes appearance.

 

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