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[Zkirsche]

Still would rather lynch Snike. More concise summary of my case imo:

Spoiler

[1:40 AM] jkirsche: sb is scum if SNike is

 

 

 

[1:40 AM] jkirsche: and SNike obviosuly is

 

 

 

[1:47 AM] jkirsche: but why don't you agree with me on that

 

 

 

[4:26 AM] LG: [4:19 PM] LG: Lol is he pushing on the fact that there isn't a clear cut "Mich is town" line from Snike

 

 

 

[4:26 AM] LG: it's super semantics focused

 

 

 

[4:26 AM] LG: like

 

 

 

[4:27 AM] LG: Snike saw the general consensus was that Mich was town

 

 

 

[4:27 AM] LG: and agreed with it?

 

 

 

[4:28 AM] LG: Snike talked to me about being defensive because he thinks you're reaching super hard

 

 

 

[4:28 AM] LG: I don't think thats something to push him on

 

 

 

[5:52 PM] jkirsche: Snike never agreed with it

 

 

 

[5:52 PM] jkirsche: really starting to get peeved at the reaching comments

 

 

 

[5:52 PM] jkirsche: if this is NOC people would be jumping on thsi shit asap

 

 

 

[6:08 PM] jkirsche: I never pushed on him for being defensive to my actions

 

 

 

[6:09 PM] jkirsche: I'm pushing him for being defensive of Junko

 

 

 

[6:09 PM] jkirsche: theres no semantics to my case

 

 

 

[6:10 PM] jkirsche: he tried to diffuse the tension on Junko for no reason

 

 

 

[6:11 PM] jkirsche: *diffuse some tension

 

 

 

[6:11 PM] jkirsche: whcih is scummy because it is easy to criticise a pressure vote wagon and it isn't really content

 

 

 

[6:11 PM] jkirsche: also buddies up to Junko and makes you look caring

 

 

 

[6:12 PM] jkirsche: Then Snike implies that he finds Mich actually pretty scummy but doesn't want to vote him because everyone thinks Mich is town

 

 

 

[6:12 PM] jkirsche: whcih is MORE reason to vote him if anything

 

 

 

[6:12 PM] jkirsche: OMGUS'd me without actually saying why my case i scummy

 

 

 

[6:13 PM] jkirsche: and is now seemingly misrepresenting my case to people like you in private conversations

Elie is still an ok lynch because it seems hes still claiming that people are saying the scummy thing is him not being sure about Prims being TL when it is actually the manner in which he brings Prims down that is suspect. Elieson can you comment on any of the things that doesn't relate to the cases on you, for example:

-My case on Snike (see above)
-GP's Case on JB
-SB's case on GP
-Snike's response to my case.
-Junko.

[Elieson]

5 minutes ago, kirsche said:

-My case on Snike (see above)
-GP's Case on JB
-SB's case on GP
-Snike's response to my case.
-Junko.

1: Your case on Snike is;

 

Quote

Snike is also not voting Mich because peopel are townreading Mich which is ???? logic. 

   ^came out of nowhere

and

[that big above'd case, notably 'diffusing tension on junko']

of which, there was hardly any to begin with out of anything logical because hell, junko either wasn't around, wasn't posting, or both. to me, his idea of 'dude guys why are we still stacking votes on a nonposter' doesn't seem out of reach. If anything, i'd say that you're really reaching on this case for Snike, especially since you are tying SB to Snike as a scumteam when there's so far, absolutely no reason as to why you're scumreading SB to begin with. You just invented a scum partnership with 0 backing, and you call snike reaching? No, I don't think so.

 

2. GP's case on JB and 3. SB's case on GP

Timing of things being posted by her, and others who engaged in OC with her and are posting about it, just doesn't add up, but the case on JB itself does make sense, at least according to what she posted with Greencapps:

Quote

so JB not picking up on this is kinda sus

Greencapps-Yesterday at 6:00 PM

Ya

Also Mich was right and he refused to back down

Nouvelle-Yesterday at 6:01 PM

yep

Greencapps-Yesterday at 6:02 PM

I'd be ok with a lynch on him cause I'm not feeling scum off of pretty much anyone else

Nouvelle-Yesterday at 6:03 PM

same. 

this part in particular though, looks like "I don't have much of a case on JB but I have nothing on anyone else", which ok, I can kind of agree with. SB brings up a good point in 

"[17:57] sb: its weird that she didnt acknowledge that JB and Mich talked"

I'd like verification from GP because there's some strong accusations here by SB and Greencapps and before I jump on anything, I wanna know intentions and if the quotes are even agreed on by all parties. Those are stern and GP hasn't even commented yet. I'm sidelines'ing on this for now, because SB's case with the JB omission makes sense (I can't think of town intent on it) but it's not vote-able until I see more.

4. Snike's response to my case.

fair. his logs of yours with the thought progression looks like it makes sense.  Especially when your response of:

Quote

Yes I went into convo to pressure you and everything in the post was made after I talked to you and you had time to compose yourself so I see no need for you to get this defensive.

basically states "Snike, I'm trying to attack you, but you're getting defensive. What a scum scrub." You're holding onto something for way too long here, and IMO his response(s) are fine enough.

5. Junko

We've not had any OC and I'm still having a hard time following any case on the guy when there's nothing there. If he doesn't do something by d2, I'd hope that the game has a vig and that they heavily consider shooting him. I find pretty much 0 value in their only game-related post, because there's a lot happening and oh apparently they're in OC with JB but like, I still don't see what Junko's done to warrant themselves a position worth evaluation. I just can't put any stock into their one post, and again, would be ok with them getting shot. Strong words but from a slot that's not doing much, I don't want to waste time & resources trying to figure things out unless they shape up. 

 

tl;dr 

kirsche, your case on snike is a stretch, your case on sb is nonexistent and you're hanging onto it for way too long.

sb's got a good point for the gp case and it's worth gp posting a reply to confirm that like, those logs are legit and if they are, why they didn't openly share jb stuff

snike's fine as far as i'm concerned...if he's getting overly defensive, i'd like to see which lines specifically (like, bold them. underline them. color-ize them.) are these defensive lines. 

junko's a rough slot to interpret and I just don't really have anything to say about it because of the lack of anything i've seen from them to begin with.

[Zkirsche]

Re: The Only Lynch Worth Caring About

Quote

^came out of nowhere

No it didn't lol read the logs.

[4:43 PM] Snike: that being said next question is probably why am I not voting mich

[4:44 PM] Snike: that's because according to next to everyone I've talked to he's obvtown or being townread

 

^^literally admitted that the main reason he didn't vote MIch was because everyone else was townreading him, when that makes no sense coming from a townie trying to catch scum.

This fucking reaching buzzword is triggering me super hard. I never said Snike was reaching. I'm not reaching on the Snike case by suspecting SB, those are two seperate things. If I hadn't talked to SB at all this game I would still have criticised Snike.

SB is scummy because he defending Snike badly and in a way that I feel like a buddy would.

Quote

dude guys why are we still stacking votes on a nonposter

This isn't what Snike said, Snike criticised Mich's "logic" when there really is no need to imo because he is just trying to add pressure on an inactive. This is bad because it hurts town to diffuse tension on someone being pressured.

Quote

"Snike, I'm trying to attack you, but you're getting defensive. What a scum scrub."

Another misrep (ooo look at the buzzwords go), the logs theselves aren't defensive its the post that I'm criticising. Way to completely ignore the subtleties of my statement namely

Snike's whole post is overly defensive. He keeps trying to justify being defensive in his logs when I never criticised him for that. He keeps repeating statements like "damned if I do, damned if I don't" trying to play the victim card super hard and that is basically the "logic" behind his vote on me. Its a thinly veiled OMGUS.

Am I scum? Lynch priority?

OTHER STUFF

Greencapps was the one who said they didn't have anything else, GP may or may not have had other thoughts on stuff.

[Zkirsche]

Oh Elie what do you think of Refa since he sheeped LG's case.

[Junk]

And jb 

[Elieson]

27 minutes ago, kirsche said:

4:43 PM] Snike: that being said next question is probably why am I not voting mich

[4:44 PM] Snike: that's because according to next to everyone I've talked to he's obvtown or being townread

 

^^literally admitted that the main reason he didn't vote MIch was because everyone else was townreading him, when that makes no sense coming from a townie trying to catch scum.

This fucking reaching buzzword is triggering me super hard. I never said Snike was reaching. I'm not reaching on the Snike case by suspecting SB, those are two seperate things. If I hadn't talked to SB at all this game I would still have criticised Snike.

Why would Snike lose interest in pursuing a case that 99% of the game already doesnt share similar thoughts on? I assume it is because he isnt confident in his case on mich being worth enough weight to mean anything. Its how I read it. Theres a reason why Im not chasing you as scum, and what I just said applies to myself...its not a far cry to think someone else would use the same logic. 

 

31 minutes ago, kirsche said:

SB is scummy because he defending Snike badly and in a way that I feel like a buddy would.

Where, exactly?

 

32 minutes ago, kirsche said:

Way to completely ignore the subtleties of my statement namely

If your case is so OBVIOUS then why are you explaining it with subtleties? I dont even understand how you can even use this statement to back your own words. If you cant summarize your case with bulletpoints and irrefutable evidence to back those points, then it is not as obvious as you think. 

 

33 minutes ago, kirsche said:

Oh Elie what do you think of Refa since he sheeped LG's case.

Null. I dont like my oc with him all but "Both Ways" (tm) according to Shinori, can apply to Refa. Yours?

 

32 minutes ago, Junk said:

And jb 

Scumlean that Ive declared for much of the game and not progressed a lot since then, since GPs case ties into fair reads of him. Yours?

[Zkirsche]

Quote

Why would Snike lose interest in pursuing a case that 99% of the game already doesnt share similar thoughts on? I assume it is because he isnt confident in his case on mich being worth enough weight to mean anything. Its how I read it. Theres a reason why Im not chasing you as scum, and what I just said applies to myself...its not a far cry to think someone else would use the same logic. 

That would be fine if that is the excuse that he used. If he had said "I don't think my Mich read is very strong so I didn't pursue it" then fine. But he didn't say that nor did he really imply it. He just said that other people were townreading him and then later on changed this to because Mich is "lynch bait" and he was paranoid about that.

(Not with me) : [4:48 PM] Snike: I don't think putting pressure on mich is worth my time because from what I'm being told he's often lynch bait, so while I think his logic at the time and in other ways is suspect I don't think he is scum?

Quote

Where, exactly?

This is the part of the log in question.

Spoiler

[20:30] jkirsche: ???? when did Snike say he thought Mich was town
[20:31] sb: im talking to him now and he said he reads mich as town
[20:31] sb: i believe
[20:31] jkirsche: hmmm
[20:31] jkirsche: regardless 2 votes is still a lot in terms of this day phase
[20:31] jkirsche: and it was 3 votes
[20:34] jkirsche: Can you give me logs of Snike saying that he thinks Mich is town
[20:34] jkirsche: timestamped
[20:34] sb: [20:22] Snike: on the less negative side of life, I think greencapps is noob townie so far
[20:23] Snike: and from what I'm reading Michelaar being read along those lines by near everyone I've talked to
[20:23] Snike: michelaar is*
[20:26] sb: yeah i was feeling good about mich early
[20:26] Snike: so while I don't know either of those players, not inclined to lynch them based on some noob stuff
[20:34] sb: actually thats not quite true i guess

Snike never said that he thought Mich was town yet Sb thought that he said that anyway. This is why I suspect him. This is not a major case and hence why I am not pushing it as strongly as the Snike case.

Quote

If your case is so OBVIOUS then why are you explaining it with subtleties?

??????????? Crazy deflection here. No comments on the logic and starts going off on something I didn't even say (no use of the word obvious in my previous post m8).

What is "both ways"(tm)? I am reserving judgement on Refa until my next convo with him. I have no read on JB at all.

[Zkirsche]

Would happly lynch Elieson he is flailing pretty hard, especially with the Obvious tirade. Snike > Elieson for lynch candidates today.

[Green Poet]

I didn't include the JB/Mich logs because they didn't have to do with my case, and they don't make JB look better or worse. I made sure Greencapps saw them first because it proved that Mich and JB did actually talk, and that was something JB had alleged that we wanted to make sure of first. My case wasn't at all hinging on them not having talked, but if they hadn't, that would have more or less confirmed scum!JB on the spot.

Spoiler

[7:14 PM] Greencapps: Exactly

[7:14 PM] Greencapps: Gong to wait to get a reply from Mich before I make a case

[7:14 PM] Greencapps: See if he was lying

[7:15 PM] Nouvelle: same

[7:15 PM] Nouvelle: by he you mean JB lying about having talked to mich?

[7:15 PM] Greencapps: Yea

[7:15 PM] Nouvelle: kk

Not sure why Greencapps thinks this "is kinda important" when our suspicions of JB aren't dependent on whether he actually talked to Mich, but instead on him (1) pressuring likely newb town who's proven to be easily lynched as town, (2) making a case publicly but not explaining the following unvote publicly, and (3) giving questionable justification for the unvote that makes more sense from scum judging others' reactions to it. This is all stated in our logs I initially posted. If it really was a deal breaker to Green, then that's on me for misunderstanding, but it doesn't affect my own read on JB.

If I wanted to hide this, I wouldn't have shown the JB/Mich logs to Green to begin with :|

[Green Poet]

Will be out for a few hours, I’ll get caught up the wagons once I’m back. atm not interested in lynching Snike, I’ve been townreading him/his slot for most of the game. Read on Elie hasn’t changed.

[Refa]

I'm fine with your response but,

1) It's pretty clear that JB hasn't played any games w/Michelaar at this point (if he's lying, then someone should dredge up a past game and prove it), so he wouldn't know that.  How does this affect your read on him, because you haven't mentioned anything about it to my knowledge.  Also why is pressuring Michelaar inherently scummy, you did it in a recent game wher ehe was scum!

2) I'm confused, what's the scum intent in doing this?

Fair enough on 3.

[SB.]

It's important because if JB did talk to Michelaar it supports what he told you about him deciding that he didn't want to keep his vote. It provides a reason for JB to play the way that he did, and your post also includes a weird double standard in that you're saying that town!JB can't make a mistake like that, but you also wouldn't make a mistake as mafia. Players make mistakes all the time, and usually the defense is wifom at best or scum desperately clinging on at worst (see: me in SFMM4 constantly using the whole "I claimed vig!" thing to sell myself as town for half the fucking game).

[ZoesMad]

6 hours ago, Elieson said:

Like, why am I scum? Why is it scummy that I'm attacking the idea of claiming to TL!Prims immediately into D1? It's not and I'm fairly sure you realize that. 

It's not that, it's the flip from mudslinging Prims to being alright with him after. Considering that's the bulk of my case, you either didn't comprehend it or didn't read it very well.

6 hours ago, Elieson said:

Like, highlighting this even out of context, especially when WAYYYY before that, SB summarized a chat that we had which included me basically saying

 

You're doing the exact same thing with the SB logs?? SB was also talking about how weird it is you want to go both ways with Prims. (SB logs below, bolded are important)

Spoiler

[15:18] sb: also why did you make that post btw
[15:18] Elieson: because I have a master plan and I do what I want
[15:19] Elieson: also because how many roles are really expendable
[15:19] sb: You would be surprised
[15:20] Elieson: if prims is town
[15:20] Elieson: do you want him expended?
[15:20] Elieson: i'd rather take the bean than him if it comes down to scum trying to off town

Which in term is kinda strange with this later in the conversation

[15:35] sb: and idk it reads like you’re downplaying prims with
[15:35] Elieson: well
[15:35] sb: not really a solid read on him
[15:35] sb: which is awkward
[15:35] Elieson: he's prims and he's notorious for just saying shit to get answers
[15:36] Elieson: i don't trust his TL claim enough to want to claim to him
[15:36] Elieson: and if half of the game does then that's half of the game on d1, taking a big risk
[15:36] Elieson: #Meta101

Which implies you don't actually trust Prims which makes the first part of the conversation weird. I'd get advising against claiming to Prims overall and wanting to lead yourself but I think that its weird how you've been doing it because of the inconsistencies.

5 hours ago, Elieson said:

why did i finally get an OC message from you yesterday when you're tellin ppl this in private since practically the beginning of the game?

Me not talking to you OC doesn't mean I can't get a case on you. Posting it forced you to defend yourself in thread, which resulted in a blatant OMGUS and solidifies my read even more.

I'm writing an essay right now, I'll have comments on everyone else of notice before phase end hopefully. Would like this lynch.

[Junk]

I thought her case on jb was good at first, so I was suspicious but the Gp's reasons for not voting as well as the whole leaving out key parts (SB already explained why it was key) made me put him back on null.

[Prims]

##Unvote
##Vote: Snike
Snike has what sounds like the world's most botched fakeclaim and has gone on record saying he's OK being lynched for reads (which I read as oddly defeatist and contrary to the rest of his play), so yeah. Sorry dude.

I'm never voting Elie today. I would rather lynch JB over GP because JB seems much more like a "don't step out of line so they don't suspect you" follower type player this game. GP hasn't been the easiest to work with but I also can understand why she's like this if she's town.

[Elieson]

More botched than Weak watcher survivor?

[Refa]

Get on Discord, Elie.

[Snike]

K

[Elieson]

Im not home fir about 25min. 

[SB.]

##Unvote
##Vote: Snike

[Zkirsche]

^^^Snike's scum buddy btw.

[SB.]

Agreed.

[Refa]

Spoiler

[5:48 PM] Refa: idk idt scum!snike would be cool with getting lynched

[5:49 PM] Prims: he was as scum in thousand names

[5:49 PM] Refa: uh

[5:49 PM] Refa: what happened there

[5:49 PM] Refa: i think i was in that game but idr

[5:49 PM] Prims: he was the d1 lynch

[5:49 PM] Prims: and he was like

[5:50 PM] Prims: "maybe it's better to remove me since my role can cause confusion" as this weird softclaim

[5:50 PM] Prims: then claimed bus driver

[5:50 PM] Prims: then got lynched

[5:50 PM] Prims: and he was scum

##Unvote
##Vote: Snike

Kirsche's case on him was good, and him being okay with being lynched despite his play otherwise read as bad to me.  I didn't get why he was still okay with being lynched at the end of the day though, especially considering he thought he was in a 1v1 w/Kirsche, but apparently he's done this in previous scum games so yeah.  Wanted to talk more to Elie before voteswapping but deadline. @EliesonTalk to me when you get back anyways, your last few posts have really confused me.

[Snike]

Do I get an any% sub wr?

You can check the discord for some of the discussion relating to this.

I obviously think kirsche is scum and lying, but take a look at Marth and Junko over the night phase, people.

Ice needs to exist more. Same with Walrein. To misquote a human orange, LOW ENERGY! SAD!

And someone take a look at Mich. He's been near-universally read as noobtown but both myself and (potentially) JB have been attacked for our less than positive interactions with him. In the time since, he's been silent in thread. It might be coincidental white-knighting, but i think it's worth examining.

To the Town:

Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It is a very mean and nasty place and it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done. Now, if you know what you're worth, then go out and get what you're worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hit, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you are because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that and that ain't you. You're better than that.

To scum: You're gonna eat lightnin' and you're gonna crap thunder.

[ZoesMad]

#Unvote

#Vote: Snike