What exacly is Whitney so difficult about in GSC? Anyone thinks she's just overrated??

[henrymidfields]

There's one thing I've never understood and it is how people say how Whitney's Miltank is so difficult. I've actually found her to be one of the easier Gym Leaders - being able to beat her on my first try - and I only found out this "difficulty" thing many years after I played GSC.

Her rollout? Sure, I admit, I had a close call even with my Geodude or my traded Machop out, but even with max power, it failed to take either of my Pokemon out in one hit as it was "not very effective" against either. Not to mention how Rollout locks Miltank's move for five turns, and you could always use Dig to dodge the next rollout. It's not even 100% accurate, so you could also use Mud Slap, or other accuracy lowering moves to effectively disable Rollout. As for the Pokemon, I caught a Geodude way before (which resist Normal and Rock-type attacks), as it was recommended against Bugsy anyway, (and if I chose Chikorita, against Silver's fire starter as well) so I had an alternate choice if for some reason Machop did not make the cut. Machop was also effective because, apart from the type advantage, it was also a traded Pokemon and grinding was less of a chore. Disobedience wasn't a huge deal either as the obedience cap at that time was Lv 30, much higher than Whitney's Pokemon. The Machoke also happened to be female, which means that Attract didn't work against her either.

The only case where I can see this not working is if Whitney's Clefairy somehow used a super-effective against either of my Miltank-busting candidates via Metronome, but well, I guess that's just sheer bad luck. Either that or if Whitney's Miltank was in HGSS with Zen Headbutt (against my Machoke), Iron Head (against my Geodude), full-power Return, and Milk Drink with Scrappy as her Ability.

Edited November 11, 2017 by henrymidfields

[Michelaar]

For me, Whitney was difficult. This was because Miltank is actually a pretty strong pokémon for this point at the game. It has pretty good stats, when it's just the third gym leader. Furthermore, she relies on annoying strategies. Her Clefairy can use Encore, locking you into a status move or something. It's main thing is Metronome, which has chance to completely obliberate your team, with OKO moves for example (actually happened to me). As said before, her Miltank has strong stats for that point of the game, and all of it's moves are annoying. Stomp is actually pretty strong, and has a chance to flinch you. She has attract, and your best bet to fight her will be your starter for most people, who have a huge chance of being male, leaving you completely helpless. It can heal infinitly with Milk Drink, without having to rely on Super Potions, and rollout can do massive damage if you don't take it out quickly.

[Dragoncat]

I had enough trouble with her back in the day before I really knew what I was doing. Before I knew to train a female geodude, she'd completely sweep my team. I'd go in there with a male nidoran/nidorino and expect double kick to do the job well enough. This was back when I wouldn't do much past just using my starter and sometimes whatever I caught in the area, and on top of that, I'd picked cyndaquil, so rollout HURT. 

So I think people just hate her because she could be a bitch if you're new to Pokemon or not good at it yet. That or the memes exaggerate.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

She's only hard because back then people simply isn't good enough at the game

 

Theres so many ways to cheese that fight like say:

Geodude

Machop

Pineco

Rollout Furret

Flaafy using the most overpowered move in pokemon

 

Heck Growl is stupidly good there because cutting damage by 34% is huge

 

But back then all you'd think off is along the lines of "WTF my Quilava got SE'D by Rollout this fights impossible"

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Water Mage]

She was hard back then, because things changed a lot between generations. It was the first time a new generation was introduced so new things and moves could be overwhelming at times. Gen 1 had very simple mechanics compared to Gen 2. Plus people weren’t used to the concept of new Pokemon yet, and Whitney was the first boss in GSC that actually used a Gen 2 Pokemon. Before her, all bosses used Gen 1 Pokemon, so people knew how to deal with them. For you Whitney was easy because you knew what to expect. 

[ZeManaphy]

Playing Silver on the Virtual Console, she wasn't that difficult but I had to reset for 3 reasons.

1. Her Clefairy totally screwed with Metronome. From Icy Wind to Flame Wheel. Eeeesh.

2. My Bellsprout managed to set up with growth on her Clefairy and sweep from there. I had to reset because I had accidently deleted my the wrong move to my Flaaffy. How Embarrassing...

3.  My Croconaw managed to set up with rage on Clefairy and sweep from there.

If your not running steel or rock, setting up is your best. I didn't find her difficult in Heartgold and Soulsilver, even without setup or a rock or steel. But then again, I had a Polka. 

[MediocreLee]

For me, she wasn't difficult to go up against because I extremely overleveled my Quilava before I would get to her.  There was even a playthrough I had where I had a Typhlosion by her gym, so I never quite understood why people thought she was difficult solely because I grind levels a lot.  However, I can understand it now especially if you're not one to have your Pokemon overleveled considering Miltank is hilariously tanky for such an early gym.

[bethany81707]

Saying "Whitney is easy, I used Geodude/Machop" is a lot like saying "Alm/Celica BHB is easy, I used Reinhardt".

Sure, she's easy if you've got her counter. A lot of things are. The difficulty is not only knowing what her counter is, but having one ready. If you don't have a Geodude at this point in the game, you are not training one up. Machop is more favourable, at least, but all that grinding tells your brain 'this is for a challenging fight'.

Morty, Chuck and Clair also posed challenges for me and my team and choices. I'd probably call Clair and that Kingdra comparable to Whitney's Miltank. You could probably trivialise them by using a different team, but that doesn't take away from the fact that you're kinda building a team specifically to nullify a certain challenge.

(Playing Colosseum, I defeated Agnol's Kingdra by using Espeon's Psychic on it while it was distracted killing my Flygon and severly damaging my Skarmory. It's much harder to pull something like this off in Singles.)

[DisobeyedCargo]

Nope, I've never had any problems with Whitney ever. Not in Heartgold or in Crystal. When I was younger, I actually used my whole team rather than just using my starter, so that probably helped.

that Damn Kingdra however, is another story.

[henrymidfields]

 

26 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

You could probably trivialise them by using a different team, but that doesn't take away from the fact that you're kinda building a team specifically to nullify a certain challenge.

Well I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on the Kingdra part. At least with Whitney, as I said before, there were fairly easy ways to get around Miltank, which I used. I mean, working out the Pokemon's type advantages is not trivializing; it's basic common sense for playing Pokemon especially if we are talking about earlier games where the NPCs are less likely to use type counters. Clair's Kingdra on the other hand have no type weakness you can exploit at this stage in the game outside of trading with a friend.

Edited November 11, 2017 by henrymidfields

[bethany81707]

8 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

 

Well I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on the Kingdra part. At least with Whitney, as I said before, there were fairly easy ways to get around Miltank, which I used. I mean, working out the Pokemon's type advantages is not trivializing; it's basic common sense for playing Pokemon especially if we are talking about earlier games where the NPCs are less likely to use type counters. Clair's Kingdra on the other hand have no type weakness you can exploit at this stage in the game outside of trading with a friend.

My argument against 'bring perfect type counters to everything' is that the game encourages you to keep to a team of six, and attempting to build a Pokemon for every challenge, especially if you don't intend to keep it, is not something that comes naturally to most players, and before the busted EXP Share of Gen VI, could get potentially unsustainable.

There's probably a hyper-specific clever tactic for dealing with Kingdra that the elitists of Pokemon know and will gladly scoff while telling us, but I haven't heard it yet.

[Punished Dayni]

Whitney can be tough, but I can't say she was exceptionally so for me. I can see it, especially without Machoke (which is an indication you overlevelled. :P). I can see how, as someone who doesn't like grinding up above the level of the gym, this could get rough. Whitney, like Bugsy, is using a pokemon with a high BST, especially for that point of the game, but Bugsy has a bunch of weaknesses to balance it out. If you don't have one ready for Whitney, you've got a chance of a bad time.

PEMV is a good summary of this. I honestly had a trickier time with Bugsy the last time I played a Jhoto title (and thinking back to when I did Nuzlockes, I swear I lost 2 to Bugsy versus none for Whitney)

[NSSKG151]

I think Whitney is one of the more difficult gym leaders in GSC thanks to Miltank. Sure now these days people might know exactly what to do because the game has been out for over fifteen years but back then her Miltank was probably a roadblock to many new players who didn't just overlevel their Pokémon.

Besides Bugsy's Scyther Whitney's Miltank is way stronger than any other Pokémon you fought beforehand not to mention it has a base speed of 100 so it is most likely faster than your team as well.

Not it mention it carries an annoying moveset with Attract to prevent your male Pokémon from doing anything half the time, Stomp is a powerful move at that point in the game that can flinch and with Miltank's speed it could definitely happen, Milk Drink which is basically a gamebreaker for the AI since it gave a bulky Pokémon like Miltank more chances to heal, and then there's Rollout that while it locks away Miltank's moves for five turns and could possibly miss if you couldn't defeat Miltank fast enough it's gonna knock out at least one or two of your teammates.

I feel Whitney's Miltank is the first opponent in GSC that actually requires some sort of strategy to beat it. (Unless you picked Chikorita for your starter then I would say Falkner's Pidgeotto will give you a hard time as well) I personally had to go catch a female Flaffy and Geodude to avoid attract, use Flaffy's Thunder Wave to slow Miltank down and avoid flinches from Stomp, then send Geodude out and use Magnitude to eventually knock Miltank out.

[Shadow Mir]

As for Whitney, I'm personally in the camp that says she really is genuinely hard. It ain't enough that Miltank has amazing stats for that point, it's also that she can heal freely with Milk Drink (and IIRC, Milk Drink had 20 PP in Gen 2). Sure, Machop has a type advantage over her, but (1) it's slow and thus susceptible to getting flinched, and (2) its level is dependent on that of the Pokemon that was traded to the NPC (and speaking of, this is even worse in Crystal since you need an Abra for the trade, and we all know how much of a pain THOSE are to catch, as well as that it's rare). It doesn't help matters that grinding in Johto takes a long time...

Edited November 11, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

8 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

My argument against 'bring perfect type counters to everything' is that the game encourages you to keep to a team of six, and attempting to build a Pokemon for every challenge, especially if you don't intend to keep it, is not something that comes naturally to most players, and before the busted EXP Share of Gen VI, could get potentially unsustainable.

There's probably a hyper-specific clever tactic for dealing with Kingdra that the elitists of Pokemon know and will gladly scoff while telling us, but I haven't heard it yet.

I mean lets be honest considering its in game, the "hyper-specific" strategy is the same one that works against anything in the game

 

Which is using debuff(growl cuts Hyper Beam BP really hard after which all you do is drop a grass type), X Items, or using Yellow Color

Edited November 11, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Ether]

The legend of Whitney's difficulty comes from most people not knowing what to expect the first time playing, going in unprepared, and getting stomped by trying to brute force a Pokemon with higher BST than anything you'll have access to at that point in the game. There are a few options to counter her with, such as Geodude or the trade Machop, but a large majority of players didn't think to use those their first time through, and one time is enough for her difficulty to be paraded if enough people experience it the one time. Sure you knew what to do the second time and breezed through her, but that didn't make her not hard anymore, you're just a god of Pokemon, obviously.

It's the same thing with the totems in Sun and Moon. The first time through, a lot of them can be tricky and they leave an impression on you. Once you know what you're doing and how they'll operate, you can pretty effectively deal with them. Whitney is notable for tripping up more first time players than most, because the tools to deal with her are more limited than most other gym leaders in the series.

[Slumber]

If you know what to expect, you'd be hard-pressed to find a SINGLE fight in the series that's a legit challenge(Barring special battles like the battle gauntlets where everything's fixed).

As everyone has said, Whitney's a major challenge when you don't prepare for her Miltank. It's beefy, it's fast, and Rollout+Attract can decimate your team, while Milk Drink keeps it topped up. If you don't know these things, you will have a very hard time.

But now everybody knows about how notorious Whitney is. Everyone knows about her Rollout Miltank because it's been nearly 20 years.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Slumber

[FiboSai]

Miltank is most likely the Pokemon with the highest total stats compared to yours in any Pokemon game. That alone can make it scary to face at first. I was only able to beat her with my level 27 Quilava when I played the game in my childhood, but that is because I didn't know much about Pokemon back then. There are many different strategies to beat Miltank even without relying on specific counters like Machop and Geodude. Just to demonstrate this, here is a small list of readily available moves that will make the battle very easy:

Growl, Charm, Thunderwave, Curse, Sandattack, Mudslap, Stunspore, Curse, Reflect, Poisonpowder, ...

In addition to that, Rollout is very exploitable. Miltank can't use other moves while locked into Rollout, which can easly allow you to KO it before it gets a chance to heal. Flaafy 3HKOs with Thunderpunch, Croconaw can build up Rage against Clefairy, any Rock type beats it, and the list goes on. If you are prepared, Miltank is not really an issue.

That being said, Whitney is still one of the most difficult gym leaders. I would rank her 2nd behind Claire in her game. 

[saisymbolic]

She was difficult because I was a kid that apparently didn't understand how the game worked back in the day. Sure, I can say she's easy now that I'm an adult that knows the mechanics well, but, when I was in elementary school, it was as if I couldn't even comprehend simple sentence structure. My 7-8 year old mind didn't see the value of using debuffs; I only knew that depleting the enemy's health won me battles. Thus, I attacked.

To be honest, the battle wasn't difficult. Just annoying as hell.

Miltank was a fat ass and could eat hits. Rollout + Milk Drink + Attract is on par with Poison Heal + Toxic Orb + Protect + Roost + Toxic, in my opinion. Fucking trash troll strategy but it works when your opponent doesn't see it coming.

Edited November 11, 2017 by saisymbolic

[bethany81707]

3 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Which is using debuff(growl cuts Hyper Beam BP really hard after which all you do is drop a grass type), X Items, or using Yellow Color

I was wondering what move lost power with Growl. The only pre physical/special split games I've played are Colosseum and XD as of a week or two ago (XD, I've only played yesterday, but I have an 8 hour playtime already).

My point is, Growl's no help against HGSS Kingdra, then... time to look for the 'lower enemy Special Attack' move.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

My point is, Growl's no help against HGSS Kingdra, then... time to look for the 'lower enemy Special Attack' move.

You're outta luck there, mate - about the only one that comes to mind is Captivate, and that's gender-dependent, not to mention I don't even know if you can get it at that point. Well, that, and Memento, but that requires unreasonably high levels. Everything else that can lower Special Attack came after Gen 4. Or is exclusive. The best I can give you is Light Screen.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Zkitty8]

I've never had much trouble with Whitney, but that was because I'd already heard about how difficult the fight was so I had a strategy for it. If it had been my first pokemon game as a kid, I probably would have lost to her a lot unless my team was overleveled.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

5 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

I was wondering what move lost power with Growl. The only pre physical/special split games I've played are Colosseum and XD as of a week or two ago (XD, I've only played yesterday, but I have an 8 hour playtime already).

My point is, Growl's no help against HGSS Kingdra, then... time to look for the 'lower enemy Special Attack' move.

Ah i was talking about GSC Kingdra. The idea with Growl is that in GSC its other moves are meh, so dropping Hyper Beam is quite effective

 

I'm not familiar with HGSS

Edited November 12, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Tamanoir]

I think the fact she's a whiney little baby also played a role on her legendary difficulty. 

She's a legitimate challenge for this point of the game, especially because of the point already evoked (everything was new, and we all were pretty bad overall. She have high level Pokemons, including one with really great base stats), but the fact you can't even enjoy your vctory over her just make everything worse. Clair the Rebelious Teenager is in a similar case.

It was a long time ago, so I don't remember exactly how hard it was for me. (I only remember the random Thunderbolt Meowth that one of the trainer used in the gym.)

But yeah, she may be one of the hardest GSC battle, but she isn't the hardest gym leader ever, nor even the hardest Normal Gym Leader.

[Moblin Major General]

On 12/2/2017 at 4:57 PM, Tamanoir said:

But yeah, she may be one of the hardest GSC battle, but she isn't the hardest gym leader ever, nor even the hardest Normal Gym Leader.

 

Any time a Gym Leader can shove a 210 power Retaliate up your ass, especially one coming off of a base 160 attack stat, only a select few pokemon with a certain ability could survive, even if they resist normal.