Do You See IS Moving Forward With Fates's Weapon Triangle

[NekoKnight]

Maybe next time they should just make two triangles, one for ranged weapons and one for melee (ignoring javelins and the like) weapons.

In regards to magic, I hope magic is divided into Anima/Light/Dark again, each magic and class being distinct. There could be a magic triangle here but it's not critical.

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

What logic is there in "Magic beats bows, bows beat knives, knives beat magic"? I've been trying to wrap my head around this for nearly two years now.

Magic redirects arrows, bows out-range knives and knives hit mages before they can finish their incantation?

[Slumber]

28 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Magic redirects arrows, bows out-range knives and knives hit mages before they can finish their incantation?

1.) Magic has never been shown to have defensive capabilities outside of Staves

2.) That's not true, and even if it was, bows would have WTA over swords, axes and lances as well

3.) Similarly, all weapons would have WTA over magic if this were the case

It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't feel like there was any actual reasoning to it. Even if there isn't some logical explanation, you'd think that there'd be some gameplay explanation. There are some balance reasons that explain the sword/lance/axe WTA, and the strengths/weaknesses of classes that use those weapons typically match well with the strengths/weaknesses of whatever they're strong/weak against. 

But the bows/HW/magic triangle doesn't do that right. HW users and bow users are built very similarly, and HW classes that aren't Butler/Maid(Which are hybrid classes) aren't built in a way that make you go "Yeah, this guy would beat magic." and nothing about archers scream "Oh boy, a magic unit would destroy this unit more than any other class". 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Slumber

[NekoKnight]

9 minutes ago, Slumber said:

1.) Magic has never been shown to have defensive capabilities outside of Staves

2.) That's not true, and even if it was, bows would have WTA over swords, axes and lances as well

3.) Similarly, all weapons would have WTA over magic if this were the case

You're not being very imaginative. Lances don't have automatic vantage vs swords despite their reach advantage, and a lance could just as easily skewer someone with an axe as with a sword. Should we reconsider that triangle too? The game isn't a medieval combat simulator.

[Slumber]

On 11/16/2017 at 12:49 AM, NekoKnight said:

You're not being very imaginative. Lances don't have automatic vantage vs swords despite their reach advantage, and a lance could just as easily skewer someone with an axe as with a sword. Should we reconsider that triangle too? The game isn't a medieval combat simulator.

No, lances don't have an automatic advantage IRL, but the weapon triangle in general isn't true to real life. Lance units would basically just have the advantage over everyone until everyone got like, a B or A rank in weapon proficiency. But again, there is some logical conclusion you can reach that justifies why sword beat axes, which beat lances, which beat swords. It's not rock-solid, flawless reasoning, but it's also not a huge stretch to figure something out. 

And even if I were to take a bunch of drugs and come up with some stoner thought that explained why bow and arrows beat knives and lost to magic, it wouldn't address the second point. The WT for melee weapons exists to emphasize the strengths and weaknesses of the classes wielding them against units wielding other types of weapons within the WT. The speedy and accurate, but weak and squishy swordies do well against the powerhouse axers who have troubles hitting things, but will struggle against the tanky, slow lancers. Obviously this is an oversimplification, and things like Peggies, which often beat a typical sword unit at its own game, throw some kinks in the machine, but these are pretty standard match-ups.

Why does the often speedy and accurate, but fragile archer beat the speedy and accurate, but fragile ninja, while also losing to the speedy and accurate(As far as Fates mages are concerned), but fragile mage? Why do any of these have any affect on other weapons? What reason is there(In terms of actual sense and in gameplay) to make this a parallel to the sword/axe/lance WT? All of them are effectively built like swordies, why are they not effective against axes and weak to lances? 

The more I think about it, the more the whole thing felt like it was implemented at the last minute. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Slumber

[Harvey]

Really depends....

Personally, I don't want it as complex as Fates due to it combining two weapons for the triangle instead of having different triangles for different types of weapons.

 

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, Slumber said:

No, lances don't have an automatic advantage IRL, but the weapon triangle in general isn't true to real life. Lance units would basically just have the advantage over everyone until everyone got like, a B or A rank in weapon proficiency. But again, there is some logical conclusion you can reach that justifies why sword beat axes, which beat lances, which beat swords. It's not rock-solid, flawless reasoning, but it's also not a huge stretch to figure something out. 

And even if I were to take a bunch of drugs and come up with some stoner thought that explained why bow and arrows beat knives and lost to magic, it wouldn't address the second point. The WT for melee weapons exists to emphasize the strengths and weaknesses of the classes wielding them against units wielding other types of weapons within the WT. The speedy and accurate, but weak and squishy swordies do well against the powerhouse axers who have troubles hitting things, but will struggle against the tanky, slow lancers. Obviously this is an oversimplification, and things like Peggies, which often beat a typical sword unit at its own game, throw some kinks in the machine, but these are pretty standard match-ups.

Why does the often speedy and accurate, but fragile archer beat the speedy and accurate, but fragile ninja, while also losing to the speedy and accurate(As far as Fates mages are concerned), but fragile mage? Why do none of these have any affect on other weapons? What reason is there(In terms of actual sense and in gameplay) to make this separate from the sword/axe/lance WT? All of them are effectively built like swordies, why are they not effective against axes and weak to lances? 

The more I think about it, the more the whole thing felt like it was implemented at the last minute. 

I don't know why you think that the ranged weapons are in a triangle of their own, because they do affect the melee weapons as well.

[shadowofchaos]

As much as I loved the gameplay in If it always felt weird having a Kunai/Dagger have an advantage to a sword and get beaten by an axe.

I'd welcome more tweaking but I don't know how I feel about them leaving it as it is.

[Tolvir]

Maybe, I think it will have some tweaks though.

Honestly, I think what might happen is them get removed from the weapon triangle, and put into their own. That way you keep the 3 ranged weapon types neutral to the normal weapon triangle, but there to counter other ranged weapons.

I personally wouldnt mind it returning like this, along with magic triangle returning, but that may over complicate the weapon triangle concept by having 3 different triangles to think about.

[ping]

18 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

True, I haven't played FE6, but I can tell it's bad for axes from the hit rates alone. Albeit they're only about as bad as Lances, since the Hit rate difference between the two is 5, tiny compared to the gulf between an Iron Lance's 70 hit and a Iron Sword's 85. It helps axers that lance users (Pegs, Wyverns, Armors,) are typically not-dodgy, Cavs are the most evasive they confront. Lances on the other hand typically fight Mercs and Myrms- dodgy classes, and sometimes Cavs and the rare Nomad Trooper/Wyvern Lord/Falcoknight. Hence, given a user with decent Skill (Lott, Dieck, Echidna), Axes shouldn't be terrible.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - in FE6, it's always the best option tomaintain WTA, if possible. If you're facing an axe user, the WT nullifies the accuracy difference between (iron) sword and axe and leaves you with nothing but a +5 advantage in damage. Similar with lances/swords against sword users. The big advantage swords have is that they still maintain good hitrates without WTA, so they're the least problematic weapon type (of the physical triangle) to be locked in. But calling lances and axes useless is a gross exaggeration.

[Slumber]

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't know why you think that the ranged weapons are in a triangle of their own, because they do affect the melee weapons as well.

Probably should have caught myself and fixed my wording, but I just ended up sticking with it, even though it wasn't right. 

[Nobody]

I really like Fates’ weapon triangle, so i hope it comes back.

about the magic weapon triangles, i’d be okay if it got back combined with fates’s triangle, similarly to how heroes did it, i.e different types of magic having different positions in the triangle. I’ve never been a fan of the magic weapon triangle otherwise, specially the dumb and overly complicated but useless double one.

i mean, the light/dark/anima is good when i think about it, but when you add wind/thunder/fire alongside it it gets just too stupid, though that one isn’t that terrible if used alone, i.e if the dark/light/anima doesn’t exist, and weapon ranks are separated by elements.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Nobody

[UNLEASH IT]

I really don't know why people want the magic triangle back tbh. 

[Captain Karnage]

5 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

I really don't know why people want the magic triangle back tbh. 

Nostalgia 

From my experience it really didn't make much of a difference seeing as how magic in general has a high hit rate, and mages generally having high resistance where it doesn't make much of a difference. 

[DefyingFates]

What if they went the Heroes route of putting a weapon and a magic type in one category instead of a weapon and a ranged weapon? It wasn't until I read this that I realised how weird it was that 5/6 weapon types targeted Def.

[Slumber]

48 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

Nostalgia 

From my experience it really didn't make much of a difference seeing as how magic in general has a high hit rate, and mages generally having high resistance where it doesn't make much of a difference. 

My main reason for wanting it is to have multiple magic types. They can do this without a triangle, but a triangle is a decent way to indicate that there are multiple, distinct magic types. 

[joshcja]

I'd enjoy the fates triangle moving forward, with a slight rebalance to end the TomeAxe master raxe's dominance over every other weapon type.

(Not sure why folks think fates triangle magic is weak, strongest mages have ever been imo)

[Jedi]

3 hours ago, joshcja said:

I'd enjoy the fates triangle moving forward, with a slight rebalance to end the TomeAxe master raxe's dominance over every other weapon type.

(Not sure why folks think fates triangle magic is weak, strongest mages have ever been imo)

Magic was stronger in both Jugdral and Awakening.

[Slumber]

4 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Magic was stronger in both Jugdral and Awakening.

Yeah, I'd say Awakening, when you could get Armsthrift, 50 luck and turn everyone into Sorcerers with Aversa's Night... That's pretty much what my last(And I mean LAST, I don't intend to touch Awakening again after that run) turned into.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Slumber

[Jedi]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Yeah, I'd say Awakening, when you could get Armsthrift, 50 luck and turn everyone into Sorcerers with Aversa's Night... That's pretty much what my last(And I mean LAST, I don't intend to touch Awakening again after this run) turned into.

Theres also just how broken Nosferatu was in general. Teamed up with how good pair up was.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Jedi

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, joshcja said:

I'd enjoy the fates triangle moving forward, with a slight rebalance to end the TomeAxe master raxe's dominance over every other weapon type.

(Not sure why folks think fates triangle magic is weak, strongest mages have ever been imo)

I disagree on both accounts - axes were better in FE7, FE8, FE9, and Shadow Dragon, and magic was better in Jugdral and Awakening. Also, I don't see how Fates was where mages were at their best when most of the mages you got had issues (Orochi is slow as molasses, Nyx has poor stats everywhere but Magic and Speed, Odin tends to not excel in anything other than Skill, Leo has speed woes, Hayato comes underleveled (at least in Birthright), Rhajat tends to have problems hitting... yeah). I don't see how any of the mages in Fates can compare to mages in Awakening. At all.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jedi]

21 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I disagree on both accounts - axes were better in FE7, FE8, and Shadow Dragon, and magic was better in Jugdral and Awakening. Also, I don't see how Fates was where mages were at their best when most of the mages you got had issues (Orochi is slow as molasses, Nyx has poor stats everywhere but Magic and Speed, Odin tends to not excel in anything other than Skill, Leo has speed woes, Hayato comes underleveled (at least in Birthright), Rhajat tends to have problems hitting... yeah). I don't see how any of the mages in Fates can compare to mages in Awakening. At all.

To Leo's credit his speed woes are easily fixable with speedwings (You get 4 and him & Xander are the best candidates for them anyways), and pair up which then he dominates a good number of enemies, and Orochi is in an easy game so she one shots most people anyways, (as Horace proved in a draft even). 

They're overall just really mediocre in Fates as a whole.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Jedi

[joshcja]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I disagree on both accounts - axes were better in FE7, FE8, FE9, and Shadow Dragon, and magic was better in Jugdral and Awakening. Also, I don't see how Fates was where mages were at their best when most of the mages you got had issues (Orochi is slow as molasses, Nyx has poor stats everywhere but Magic and Speed, Odin tends to not excel in anything other than Skill, Leo has speed woes, Hayato comes underleveled (at least in Birthright), Rhajat tends to have problems hitting... yeah). I don't see how any of the mages in Fates can compare to mages in Awakening. At all.

Ignoring your obligitory axe hate. 

----------------------------------

I said tomes, not mages. Readily availible Gen1 mages in fates all have some flaw that needs investment. That said the payout tends to be a hellmurder nigh immortal killbot after you've fixed that flaw because tomes are really really dumb. In turncount settings this is almost never worthwhile (thus lowrank on all the tomeguys/gals) but casually the rabbithole goes oh so deep.

Also: What??? The only not-dead-now mage in gen1 awakening L was Robin. Miriel builds a sick laurent and staves, Lissa builds a sick Owain and staves. Marribel builds a sick Brady and staves, Tharja struggles to build waifu and... cant even stave. Awakening L magic pre-paralouges in a shellnut was chip exp is gud ft Robin is busted. If any game's got magic on-par with fates tomes it's echoes rediculous white magic system.

The kid mages kinda strut out how good tomes really are as they get to ignore their parents flaws entirely while soaking up all of the borked setup goodness. Obligitory part where we all remember, Ophelia exists and is just... not ok...

---------------------------------------------

On the note of fates vs awakening as a whole: Fates lets you spike the unholy hell out of key stats, Awakening has statwall. It's a case of higher floor vs higher cap. Seriously tripple digit flat damage and builds that rwquire tripple digit flat damage quads with crits/procs to kill are a thing in fates. It's totally useless outside of postgame and ch28 cq solo's but yeah, at full invest fates damage/durability is just higher.

(No I am not considering the known 99 all bug in this)

Edited November 18, 2017 by joshcja

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

On 11/19/2017 at 6:07 AM, joshcja said:

Ignoring your obligitory axe hate. 

----------------------------------

I said tomes, not mages. Readily availible Gen1 mages in fates all have some flaw that needs investment. That said the payout tends to be a hellmurder nigh immortal killbot after you've fixed that flaw because tomes are really really dumb. In turncount settings this is almost never worthwhile (thus lowrank on all the tomeguys/gals) but casually the rabbithole goes oh so deep.

Also: What??? The only not-dead-now mage in gen1 awakening L was Robin. Miriel builds a sick laurent and staves, Lissa builds a sick Owain and staves. Marribel builds a sick Brady and staves, Tharja struggles to build waifu and... cant even stave. Awakening L magic pre-paralouges in a shellnut was chip exp is gud ft Robin is busted. If any game's got magic on-par with fates tomes it's echoes rediculous white magic system.

The kid mages kinda strut out how good tomes really are as they get to ignore their parents flaws entirely while soaking up all of the borked setup goodness. Obligitory part where we all remember, Ophelia exists and is just... not ok...

---------------------------------------------

On the note of fates vs awakening as a whole: Fates lets you spike the unholy hell out of key stats, Awakening has statwall. It's a case of higher floor vs higher cap. Seriously tripple digit flat damage and builds that rwquire tripple digit flat damage quads with crits/procs to kill are a thing in fates. It's totally useless outside of postgame and ch28 cq solo's but yeah, at full invest fates damage/durability is just higher.

(No I am not considering the known 99 all bug in this)

this isn't really correct bruh

 

Unless your Chiki-tier(where literally only 2 character is used, and i'm pretty sure his Corrin used Tomes), the current meme strats for Conquest Efficiency is actually Malig Knight, paired with +mov promo with Siegfried but better.

 

What is the 99 bug?

 

@Jedi Honestly its not so much Tomes is bad, and more they are limited by the alvailable Pair up and base stats of the built in mage. Horse Spirit is still ridiculously overpowered, and the PhysDef vs Res disparity is as ridiculous as it have always been as shown by how potent Bolt Axes are

Of course Jugdral is on another level since one game had Moving Rescue Staff and +20 Speed Holsety.... and the other have FE5 Staff

Edited November 20, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Shadow Mir]

On November 18, 2017 at 5:07 PM, joshcja said:

Ignoring your obligitory axe hate. 

----------------------------------

I said tomes, not mages. Readily availible Gen1 mages in fates all have some flaw that needs investment. That said the payout tends to be a hellmurder nigh immortal killbot after you've fixed that flaw because tomes are really really dumb. In turncount settings this is almost never worthwhile (thus lowrank on all the tomeguys/gals) but casually the rabbithole goes oh so deep.

Also: What??? The only not-dead-now mage in gen1 awakening L was Robin. Miriel builds a sick laurent and staves, Lissa builds a sick Owain and staves. Marribel builds a sick Brady and staves, Tharja struggles to build waifu and... cant even stave. Awakening L magic pre-paralouges in a shellnut was chip exp is gud ft Robin is busted. If any game's got magic on-par with fates tomes it's echoes rediculous white magic system.

The kid mages kinda strut out how good tomes really are as they get to ignore their parents flaws entirely while soaking up all of the borked setup goodness. Obligitory part where we all remember, Ophelia exists and is just... not ok...

---------------------------------------------

On the note of fates vs awakening as a whole: Fates lets you spike the unholy hell out of key stats, Awakening has statwall. It's a case of higher floor vs higher cap. Seriously tripple digit flat damage and builds that rwquire tripple digit flat damage quads with crits/procs to kill are a thing in fates. It's totally useless outside of postgame and ch28 cq solo's but yeah, at full invest fates damage/durability is just higher.

(No I am not considering the known 99 all bug in this)

Unh-unh. This is what you said in your last post:

On November 18, 2017 at 10:36 AM, joshcja said:

(Not sure why folks think fates triangle magic is weak, strongest mages have ever been imo)

And I'm not seeing how Fates tomes are busted when Horse Spirit is piss weak (the defensive boosts help, but I'm not sure it's good enough to make up for that), Mjolnil (bonus points if you can guess why I spelled it that way) is underwhelming, like all killer weapons in Fates are, the braves are weak AND inaccurate, and most of the powerful stuff has severe drawbacks. Compare to Awakening, which has Mire, busted Nosferatu (and a chance to get an even stronger version of Nosferatu at that), as well as freely buyable braves and killers AND a 21 mt tome. Anyways, I'd say the answer to why people think magic isn't so hot in Fates is twofold - there's no obviously broken mage like in Awakening, which had Robin (most all the mages have some problem, whether it be statistical or otherwise, holding them back), and magic being thrown in the weapon triangle, which prevents it from being good against everything physical (ninjas exist now, and outside of Excalibur, which is S rank and thus limited in usability, mages will struggle to get past pegasi; it doesn't help that said tome comes 2 chapters from the end of the game in Conquest).

Edited November 20, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

3 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

this isn't really correct bruh

 

Unless your Chiki-tier(where literally only 2 character is used, and i'm pretty sure his Corrin used Tomes), the current meme strats for Conquest Efficiency is actually Malig Knight, paired with +mov promo with Siegfried but better.

Was refering to gen 1 not-corn mages in that statement. Also Not-Leo/Not Freezana i guess. Boltaxe is obviously OP, it's an axetome the, science went too far.

99bug: IS is bad at einherjar systems and cap boosting mechanics. The combination is 99 allstat dudes.

Levant: MN/Falco counter mages now? More importantly people use excal in fates? Ever?

Edited November 21, 2017 by joshcja