Why Lyn is a bad unit?

[RedRob]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If you were forced to play Lyn Normal Mode again I'd understand. Lyn Hard Mode isn't a tutorial, though; just normal FE maps which happen to be on the easy side of things.

There's something really weird about starting a game at "Chapter 11", I feel, too, but that one might be just me.

Then I imagine people were idiots like me and didn't realize that.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I never considered that.  I don't suppose it would hurt to try giving her one if I'm not planning on using any of the potential Swordmasters.

They're storebought in Chapter 23 (Hector 24), in addition to the one you get early, so you can even use them on both Lyn + Guy (etc.) if you wish. Reavers in general are a huge boon for anyone who only gets one weapon type (and aren't bad choices for those who get two, because they double the triangle effects), but even moreso for dodge-tanks since it increases the range of enemies they can reduce to (near-)zero hit and thus tank endlessly.

[Harvey]

16 hours ago, Talandar said:

For one Lyn has really bad durability and faces a lot of triangle disadvantage;

A lot of your units in general have low def growths even my other favorite unit Raven has an odd defense base and defense for a mercenary. 

Only units with good defense growths are Oswin, Hector and Marcus last I recall. 

Also, lancereavers say hello although they come about midway so I'll give you that.

 

[ping]

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

A lot of your units in general have low def growths even my other favorite unit Raven has an odd defense base and defense for a mercenary. 

Lyn starts with 18 HP / 2 Def / 0 Res (w/o Lyn mode, of course), and that is terrible. Guy at least has 21 HP / 5 Def, even without his HHM bonuses, and Raven even starts with 25 HP / 5 Def. At base, Lyn is one point more physically bulky than Erk, Priscilla, Lucius, Serra, and Ninian, who are all one-shot by 20+ Atk enemies, compared to Lyn's 21+ Atk. Playing on HHM makes this even more significant, since it boosts both Guy's and Raven's (i.e. the other infantry swordfighters') stats even further. Dodge-tanking might be a thing once in a while, but I don't think it's really reliable unless you have a forest tile for her to stand in and the enemies are pretty much exclusively wielding axes.

So I'm with the majority of the thread here - with Lyn mode, Lyn is a decent unit, especially if you give her the Angelic Robe (although I prefer to give it to Florina). No-Lyn-Mode-Lyn is terrible, and I would even struggle to rate her higher than the "almighty" Roy.

[Harvey]

16 minutes ago, ping said:

Lyn starts with 18 HP / 2 Def / 0 Res (w/o Lyn mode, of course), and that is terrible. Guy at least has 21 HP / 5 Def, even without his HHM bonuses, and Raven even starts with 25 HP / 5 Def. At base, Lyn is one point more physically bulky than Erk, Priscilla, Lucius, Serra, and Ninian, who are all one-shot by 20+ Atk enemies, compared to Lyn's 21+ Atk. Playing on HHM makes this even more significant, since it boosts both Guy's and Raven's (i.e. the other infantry swordfighters') stats even further. Dodge-tanking might be a thing once in a while, but I don't think it's really reliable unless you have a forest tile for her to stand in and the enemies are pretty much exclusively wielding axes.

So I'm with the majority of the thread here - with Lyn mode, Lyn is a decent unit, especially if you give her the Angelic Robe (although I prefer to give it to Florina). No-Lyn-Mode-Lyn is terrible, and I would even struggle to rate her higher than the "almighty" Roy.

That 5 defense for both Guy and Raven isn't saying much since they are going to get screwed by mages and wyverns further more. Saying that they are better than Lyn because of a three defense stat difference is awkward when its not saying much in the long run. 

And no, while I respect your opinion, Roy is no way better than her since even he has a horrible def growth alongside base, has a horrible promotion time, is stuck with swords even after promotion and isn't anywhere lucky than Lyn. Atleast Lyn gets a +3 in Def upon promotion unlike Roy. And while there's nothing wrong with his growths, a significant part of them goes directly to luck and res which are not exactly the most important stats in either game.

 

[msterforks]

On 11/16/2017 at 3:53 AM, Florete said:

I've always been an advocate of Lyn being not as bad as people say, but it's kind of context-dependent. You really need to play Lyn mode first for her, because she really is bad when you go straight into Eliwood/Hector mode. I also see her as being not very newbie-friendly because she's reliant on dodging and proper placement more than others, so less-experienced players may have more trouble with her. But she's consistently been among my best units and was great help in all my ranked runs.

 

• The first Heaven Seal isn't very late, especially for players who level units to 20 before promotion.
• Bows are only bad as a solo weapon. As a secondary, they're good. (Seriously, Bows as a secondary are crazy underrated)
• Her Str is average, not poor, and a quick Florina support is easy help.

Bad is relevant to other characters, not the enemies. In a hypothetical world, if Lyn 2HKOs every enemy in the game, but everyone else OHKOs, why would you ever pick Lyn?

 

• 5 movement until chapter 26 is pretty damning on its own. If you're fielding a 5 or 6 move unit towards the late game, you need a really good excuse to do so. Think Raven level good.
• Heaven seal is expensive. Lyn is only mandatory in a handful of chapters, and even then she can safely be tucked into cover. In a ranked run, having two other promoted units (excluding lords/thieves/pirates) is much more valuable, if you can afford the funds.
• If the heaven seal is an option, Eliwood should be the first benefactor (assuming HHM) since it gives him a mount, 7 move, and javelins
• Bows mean giving up EP entirely. That's worse than having a sword equipped, since at least you can usually retaliate against something. Plus, even if Lyn receives the HS in ch26H, the promotion comes at a time when iron weapons don't kill anymore. She has to drag around a steel bow across the chapters and consistently give up EP just to get access to killer bows.
• Why is your Florina consistently near your Lyn?
• "Average strength" doesn't say much. She's extremely prone to getting RNG screwed since her usefulness hinges on her strength alone. If she gets zero strength from level 1-20, but strength every level up from /1-20, she's sitting at an above average strength total of 50%, and yet your experience would be hell trying to carry a 4 strength Lyn to chapter 26H. This is an extreme, but if she doesn't start above that 40% in the early game, she's too heavy to carry.

 

 

[Florete]

10 minutes ago, msterforks said:

• 5 movement until chapter 26 is pretty damning on its own. If you're fielding a 5 or 6 move unit towards the late game, you need a really good excuse to do so. Think Raven level good.
• Heaven seal is expensive. Lyn is only mandatory in a handful of chapters, and even then she can safely be tucked into cover. In a ranked run, having two other promoted units (excluding lords/thieves/pirates) is much more valuable, if you can afford the funds.
• If the heaven seal is an option, Eliwood should be the first benefactor (assuming HHM) since it gives him a mount, 7 move, and javelins
• Bows mean giving up EP entirely. That's worse than having a sword equipped, since at least you can usually retaliate against something. Plus, even if Lyn receives the HS in ch26H, the promotion comes at a time when iron weapons don't kill anymore. She has to drag around a steel bow across the chapters and consistently give up EP just to get access to killer bows.
• Why is your Florina consistently near your Lyn?
• "Average strength" doesn't say much. She's extremely prone to getting RNG screwed since her usefulness hinges on her strength alone. If she gets zero strength from level 1-20, but strength every level up from /1-20, she's sitting at an above average strength total of 50%, and yet your experience would be hell trying to carry a 4 strength Lyn to chapter 26H. This is an extreme, but if she doesn't start above that 40% in the early game, she's too heavy to carry.

• Maybe if you're doing LTC, but otherwise it's not nearly "damning." It's entirely possible not everyone has been promoted yet. Likely even in ranked (this is about the map I started promoting units in my ranked runs).
• "Expensive," lol. It's the cost of two promotion items. It's not going to make a noticeable impact if you're playing ranked and it's negligible if you're not.
• If both are being used, yes.
• This nonsense is still around? Doesn't anyone know how to place units properly? Am I honestly the only one who's had Bows kill enemies on enemy phase? Am I also the only one who knows how to use the trade function to re-equip post combat? I would like to say it's not that complicated but it apparently is.
• Because I play smart. Don't you?
• What are you trying to say? I honestly can't decipher the purpose of this bullet point.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Florete

[msterforks]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

• Maybe if you're doing LTC, but otherwise it's not nearly "damning." It's entirely possible not everyone has been promoted yet. Likely even in ranked (this is about the map I started promoting units in my ranked runs).
• "Expensive," lol. It's the cost of two promotion items. It's not going to make a noticeable impact if you're playing ranked and it's negligible if you're not.
• If both are being used, yes.
• This nonsense is still around? Doesn't anyone know how to place units properly? Am I honestly the only one who's had Bows kill enemies on enemy phase? Am I also the only one who knows how to use the trade function to re-equip post combat? I would like to say it's not that complicated but it apparently is.
• Because I play smart. Don't you?
• What are you trying to say? I honestly can't decipher the purpose of this bullet point.

• LTC or not, I can field Marcus, all of the fliers, and the Christmas cavs + Lowen. What exactly does Lyn do that these units cannot?
• Yes, expensive. If you can spare the extra 10Gs on promotions, what exactly does Blade Lord Lyn do that the Christmas paladins cannot? Okay, you can spare 20Gs. Why not promote two fliers? Okay, you can spare 30Gs. Why not promote Raven and Priscilla? There's always someone who does a better/more useful job than Lyn, until you run out of funds to dedicate to promotions. The only reason why you would use Lyn is if you like playing her or RNG plays the cards backwards.
• You agree with promoting Eliwood first, so we don't promote Lyn until 28x. Is this supposed to help her cause?
• Trade re-equip only takes you so far, maybe three turns in a map at best. As mentioned above, high movement units get the same job done faster. Lyn will fall behind and she'll either be picking off stragglers or playing catch up.
• Florina has 7/8 move and immunity to terrain move costs. Her being able to throw three or four more javelins in a map is worth more than the support bonus. Also, while C support comes practically for free, B support requires 20 turns, and A support requires another 20. That's 40 turns of either Lyn or Florina intentionally slowing down to build that support.
• You mentioned strength as not an area to critique Lyn since her growth is average. I said otherwise, because growth rates are inconsistent. She needs to meet certain strength benchmarks, and that requires her to have average/above average number of strength ups in the early game. Failing this benchmark means she requires an extraordinary amount of effort to level.

[Harvey]

37 minutes ago, msterforks said:

• LTC or not, I can field Marcus, all of the fliers, and the Christmas cavs + Lowen. What exactly does Lyn do that these units cannot?

Well for one thing, Marcus can't double and its instead the opposite. Both Florina and Fiona have horrible bases that unless you use Lyn mode aren't worth using. Lowen also suffers the same fate as Marcus only difference being that he's unpromoted so Marcus gets the upper hand. Only Sain and Kent are solid.

Lyn has good dodge tanking, some of the fastest supports in the game and can easily kill most cavs thanks to the Mani Katti. Marcus may be better than Lyn but his low speed can be problematic later on.

42 minutes ago, msterforks said:

Yes, expensive. If you can spare the extra 10Gs on promotions, what exactly does Blade Lord Lyn do that the Christmas paladins cannot? Okay, you can spare 20Gs. Why not promote two fliers? Okay, you can spare 30Gs. Why not promote Raven and Priscilla? There's always someone who does a better/more useful job than Lyn, until you run out of funds to dedicate to promotions. The only reason why you would use Lyn is if you like playing her or RNG plays the cards backwards.

I think what the OP is saying that using the seal on her isn't going to affect your funds ranks anywhere the same level as the ocean seal. She's not going to ruin your funds rank but she can be used to make it better as I said earlier due to the fact that she comes with a white gem. Also, this game unlike SOME others allows you to use whom you want to use so why is this a bad thing if the OP values her so much?

Also...

47 minutes ago, msterforks said:

• You agree with promoting Eliwood first, so we don't promote Lyn until 28x. Is this supposed to help her cause?

I think the OP meant that a lot of your units are most likely going to be promoted at that point on so it makes sense to give the seals during that time. Only one of the cavs can promote early and that is if you use Lyn mode. Past that, most of your units except the ones that need the hero crest are going to get promoted late anyways and by the time that happens, the game starts pre promote emblem where the units you heavily invested on while useful are not as strong as the pre promotes.

53 minutes ago, msterforks said:

Florina has 7/8 move and immunity to terrain move costs. Her being able to throw three or four more javelins in a map is worth more than the support bonus. Also, while C support comes practically for free, B support requires 20 turns, and A support requires another 20. That's 40 turns of either Lyn or Florina intentionally slowing down to build that support.

That support....is pretty easy to do and doesn't take long to even do. If it benefits them, why not do the support?

55 minutes ago, msterforks said:

• You mentioned strength as not an area to critique Lyn since her growth is average. I said otherwise, because growth rates are inconsistent. She needs to meet certain strength benchmarks, and that requires her to have average/above average number of strength ups in the early game. Failing this benchmark means she requires an extraordinary amount of effort to level.

Which is why Lyn's mode is so generous to offer you a free energy ring and is the ONLY way to get one. Dorcas doesn't come with it on hard modes and you can't buy it elsewhere even from the secret shops. Since no one really benefits much from the energy ring( and yes even Florina doesn't because she has a low strength cap for that) and since you can't transfer the stat item to Eliwood/Hector mode, may as well use it on Lyn as well as the Angelic Robe.

 

[ping]

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

That 5 defense for both Guy and Raven isn't saying much since they are going to get screwed by mages and wyverns further more. Saying that they are better than Lyn because of a three defense stat difference is awkward when its not saying much in the long run. 

...Lyn gets screwed by mages (zero Res, yo) and wyverns even worse. Three points of Def and three/seven points of HP means that Guy and Raven will usually be able to tank at least one more hit than Lyn does - for example, against a 15 Atk enemy (which iirc isn't too unusual when Lyn joins), Lyn gets two-rounded (2x13 damage), while Guy only gets three-rounded even without HHM bonuses. With them, he's close to surviving 3 hits (he needs either +1 def or +3 HP), while HHM!Raven survives three hits even at base.

7 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Well for one thing, Marcus can't double and its instead the opposite.

What.

No seriously, what?!

Edited November 17, 2017 by ping

[Harvey]

10 minutes ago, ping said:

What.

No seriously, what?!

Marcus base speed is 11 and he has a low growth speed. What's wrong with that statement? He'll get doubled at some point of the game.

 

[Aut]

39 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Well for one thing, Marcus can't double and its instead the opposite. Both Florina and Fiona have horrible bases that unless you use Lyn mode aren't worth using. Lowen also suffers the same fate as Marcus only difference being that he's unpromoted so Marcus gets the upper hand. Only Sain and Kent are solid.

Lyn has good dodge tanking, some of the fastest supports in the game and can easily kill most cavs thanks to the Mani Katti. Marcus may be better than Lyn but his low speed can be problematic later on.

I think what the OP is saying that using the seal on her isn't going to affect your funds ranks anywhere the same level as the ocean seal. She's not going to ruin your funds rank but she can be used to make it better as I said earlier due to the fact that she comes with a white gem. Also, this game unlike SOME others allows you to use whom you want to use so why is this a bad thing if the OP values her so much?

Also...

I think the OP meant that a lot of your units are most likely going to be promoted at that point on so it makes sense to give the seals during that time. Only one of the cavs can promote early and that is if you use Lyn mode. Past that, most of your units except the ones that need the hero crest are going to get promoted late anyways and by the time that happens, the game starts pre promote emblem where the units you heavily invested on while useful are not as strong as the pre promotes.

That support....is pretty easy to do and doesn't take long to even do. If it benefits them, why not do the support?

Which is why Lyn's mode is so generous to offer you a free energy ring and is the ONLY way to get one. Dorcas doesn't come with it on hard modes and you can't buy it elsewhere even from the secret shops. Since no one really benefits much from the energy ring( and yes even Florina doesn't because she has a low strength cap for that) and since you can't transfer the stat item to Eliwood/Hector mode, may as well use it on Lyn as well as the Angelic Robe.

 

Marcus can double throughout the game. As long as he’s killing bosses, he should be high enough level to double most enemies he comes across. If Florina isn’t worth using with no Lyn mode neither is Lyn, and I usually use Fiora on HHM no Lyn mode, it’s worth training her up because she’s a flyer, which immediately makes her better investment than most other units. Lowen like never gets doubled except for the really fast stuff like Swordmasters and Valkyries. If he’s trained Lowen should be doubling most enemies.

Dodgetanking isn’t super reliable versus non-axe users (without a lancereaver) and supports don’t matter in this game except for maybe C Hector/Eliwood and C Florina/Lyn. As someone who used Marcus, I can say that his speed is fine for all but the fastest of enemies.

Won’t argue anything else, but are you really arguing that her inventory should be considered in how good a unit is? I’m not gonna call Louise good for rank because she joins with the white gem

Last time I played HHM every unit I was using promoted by Ch.26. Most of them were promoted between ch. 22 and Ch. 25. It was also a more casual run. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to complain about a unit having a late promotion if they promote in Ch. 26

Because it’s boring to wait like 20 turns for a support. This could just be me but I hate waiting for supports because it’s stupid.

Are we really bringing in caps? They almost never matter even at the end of the game. Even if we bring up Florina’s caps, she caps at 20/17 with the energy ring, so it will never not be relevant. Florina is a better choice for the energy ring than Lyn because she flies and is already stronger than Lyn. Angelic Robe should go to Florina since she’s a flier and therefore better investment. 

39 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Marcus base speed is 11 and he has a low growth speed. What's wrong with that statement? He'll get doubled at some point of the game.

 

You’d be suprised. His speed gets him doubled by Lloyd and some Valkyries, and like 2 units in 32. Then he gets doubled by a couple of the endgame enemies, but not a lot. Saying Marcus gets doubled is like saying Pent gets doubled, although it’s true, it’s barely any enemies (Pent basically only gets doubled by Lloyd and Uhai). 

[Florete]

7 hours ago, msterforks said:

• LTC or not, I can field Marcus, all of the fliers, and the Christmas cavs + Lowen. What exactly does Lyn do that these units cannot?
• Yes, expensive. If you can spare the extra 10Gs on promotions, what exactly does Blade Lord Lyn do that the Christmas paladins cannot? Okay, you can spare 20Gs. Why not promote two fliers? Okay, you can spare 30Gs. Why not promote Raven and Priscilla? There's always someone who does a better/more useful job than Lyn, until you run out of funds to dedicate to promotions. The only reason why you would use Lyn is if you like playing her or RNG plays the cards backwards.
• You agree with promoting Eliwood first, so we don't promote Lyn until 28x. Is this supposed to help her cause?
• Trade re-equip only takes you so far, maybe three turns in a map at best. As mentioned above, high movement units get the same job done faster. Lyn will fall behind and she'll either be picking off stragglers or playing catch up.
• Florina has 7/8 move and immunity to terrain move costs. Her being able to throw three or four more javelins in a map is worth more than the support bonus. Also, while C support comes practically for free, B support requires 20 turns, and A support requires another 20. That's 40 turns of either Lyn or Florina intentionally slowing down to build that support.
• You mentioned strength as not an area to critique Lyn since her growth is average. I said otherwise, because growth rates are inconsistent. She needs to meet certain strength benchmarks, and that requires her to have average/above average number of strength ups in the early game. Failing this benchmark means she requires an extraordinary amount of effort to level.

• I never said Lyn was the best unit in the game (though I do think she's better than some of these units). So she's worse than some units. Okay. This makes her trash somehow?
• This is a horrible argument. If I'm not playing ranked, I can promote Lyn, Eliwood, Farina, Dart, Matthew, and Legault without issue (to be fair, I've never actually done this, but I probably could). If I am playing ranked, I'll want to cut out those last four, but that's not Lyn's fault. This is just boiling down to the same point as the first. Just because better units exist doesn't mean she's trash. If you're only going to use the absolute best units, yeah, you might not use her. So what?
• I agree with promoting Eliwood first if you're using both. For the record, no, this doesn't help her. Yeah, I'm willing to acknowledge that. Does that come as a surprise? But I don't agree with (often) using both in the first place. It's odd that you would argue against using Lyn at all and then talk like Eliwood and Lyn are being used together all the time despite Eliwood being even worse.
• Only in LTC (and let's get this out there: I don't care one bit for LTC). There are enough maps in the game where moving full speed ahead isn't extremely beneficial. Otherwise units like Raven and Hector would be garbage. Seriously, why do they always get a free pass from people despite having the same movement type? And no one complains about Ninian's 5 move forever, either. High movement is beneficial for flexibility of positioning and occasionally getting from one place to another faster, but it's not at all a necessity in most types of play.
• See above point. Just because she can move around doesn't mean she should. The A support is helpful enough for both that you'll want to do it. Just play smart.
• If her Str is actually an issue, there's the LM Energy Ring and the Florina support that can provide a +5 buffer. If she gets really screwed, unfortunate, but it can happen to anyone. This isn't much of an argument.

[Shiki]

14 hours ago, Harvey said:

A lot of your units in general have low def growths even my other favorite unit Raven has an odd defense base and defense for a mercenary. 

Why are you looking at growths?

Lyn starts in her mode with 16 HP, 2 Def and 0 Res. Kent and Sain have 20/5 and 19/6 respectively at the same level. There's a gap, no?
Her base is already bad and her growths are abyssmal. Sain has the same growth but there is that lead which makes a huge difference coupled with his ability to enforce WTA.
Raven has 29 HP and 6 Def at base in HHM. That let's him survive more than 2 hits in some occasions. Promotion to Hero gives him Axes which will give him WTA against 80% of the enemies, including those pesky wyverns. Which is why Raven's entire useability is dependent on how fast one can rush his promotion.

The fact that you cannot see these difference makes your entire claim questionable. But seeing your statement about Marcus confirms that you aren't capable of holding these kind of discussions in the first place.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Heaven Seals shows up in, as of Hector Mode chapter 26.

27 - White gem sells for 10.000 which is enough to buy 14 copy of Killer weapon and 4 Javelin. This is excluding Moneys you save up until this point

the next shop shows up in 29 and the content is pretty shite, and even if you need to shop for the defend chapter you'd take PFoD gem, excess promotion item, and Fell Contract

 

the next shop is Ch31. Calculating those, you have 52,500 gold at least. Which is 50 copy of the most expensive weapon

the secret shop at VoD is pointless, since you'd only have a use for physic, but Fortify comes here anyway

 

Seriously speaking unless its ranked, which iirc had absurd surplus on gold if you have the s rank weapon, lord promotion actually didn't hurt you at all money wise since FE7 have completely absurd amount of money thanks to Mid game Silver Card. The only time money is probably needed is for the Physic Staff + 4? Chest Key on Heath joining chapter

[Just call me AL]

12 hours ago, Harvey said:

Marcus base speed is 11 and he has a low growth speed. What's wrong with that statement? He'll get doubled at some point of the game.

By an enemy that he shouldn't be fighting in the first place. With anything else, put it this way: There are Ch 32 enemies with 11 Spd, and they often weigh themselves down with steelies or Elfire/Shine. How is that an issue for him?

[Xanaxian]

You could do worse than Lyn. 

I'm not a fan of her low strength and terrible defense, but she's bound to be a better myrm than Guy, and she isn't even a proper myrm.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Xanaxian

[msterforks]

7 hours ago, Florete said:

• I never said Lyn was the best unit in the game (though I do think she's better than some of these units). So she's worse than some units. Okay. This makes her trash somehow?
• This is a horrible argument. If I'm not playing ranked, I can promote Lyn, Eliwood, Farina, Dart, Matthew, and Legault without issue (to be fair, I've never actually done this, but I probably could). If I am playing ranked, I'll want to cut out those last four, but that's not Lyn's fault. This is just boiling down to the same point as the first. Just because better units exist doesn't mean she's trash. If you're only going to use the absolute best units, yeah, you might not use her. So what?
• I agree with promoting Eliwood first if you're using both. For the record, no, this doesn't help her. Yeah, I'm willing to acknowledge that. Does that come as a surprise? But I don't agree with (often) using both in the first place. It's odd that you would argue against using Lyn at all and then talk like Eliwood and Lyn are being used together all the time despite Eliwood being even worse.
• Only in LTC (and let's get this out there: I don't care one bit for LTC). There are enough maps in the game where moving full speed ahead isn't extremely beneficial. Otherwise units like Raven and Hector would be garbage. Seriously, why do they always get a free pass from people despite having the same movement type? And no one complains about Ninian's 5 move forever, either. High movement is beneficial for flexibility of positioning and occasionally getting from one place to another faster, but it's not at all a necessity in most types of play.
• See above point. Just because she can move around doesn't mean she should. The A support is helpful enough for both that you'll want to do it. Just play smart.
• If her Str is actually an issue, there's the LM Energy Ring and the Florina support that can provide a +5 buffer. If she gets really screwed, unfortunate, but it can happen to anyone. This isn't much of an argument.

Apparently you only see two options: LTC or super casual slow. Even in the average playthrough, move is very helpful, and the cavs take far more punishment than Lyn ever could. Dodge tanking is not reliable when half the game has weapon triangle advantage against you. No, lancereavers don't count, since they're limited in uses and not strong enough to one round cavs or dent wyverns. Yes, it's possible to have a pleasant playthrough using Lyn as a core unit. That does not make her good. When you fire up the game, you don't question whether you're capable of beating the game; you question how well you can beat it. Therefore Lyn is not competing against enemies; she's competing against other characters for deployment slots.

 

I thought the reasons why Hector, Raven, and Ninian/Nils are good are fairly obvious, but maybe I should state them anyway. Hector comes with hand axes, a godsend against the myriad of javelin users. He falls off during the mid and late game, but because he's a mandatory unit (on HHM), anything he contributes is considered a bonus. Raven comes with stats fit for a level 12, but joins at level 5. He also has some of the best growths in the game. When he promotes, he too gets hand axes. Nils/Ninian (and most dancers across the FE series) are incredibly useful with their refresh ability alone. Even without too much strategy, the choice is either to deploy your 10th best unit (perhaps Lyn) or deploy your dancer and let your best unit attack twice. With really good planning, canto + 7/8 can move dancers just as fast as the mounted units without any loss of turns. That's also excluding the massive buffs that Ninis' Grace and Filla's Might bring specifically in this game. Base level Harken can 2 turn the fire dragon on HHM with Filla's Might + Basilikos. There are plenty of on the fly applications that you can find too. Think double warp, warp + physic, allowing certain units to attack twice for extra xp gain, etc. Speaking of xp, dancers will never compete with fighting units for levels, while a 10th combat unit will.

EDIT: Hector also comes with the Wolf Beil. The units it's effective against are typically lance users, giving it an extra +2 damage. This allows Hector to OHKO cavs/knights despite not being able to double them. On the contrary, the Mani Katti is a sword, which receives -2 damage vs aforementioned enemies. Plus, the Mani Katti isn't all that powerful to begin with.

 

It's also true that not all maps are suited for moving fast. The difference between Lyn and high movement units is that the latter can slow themselves down when necessary, while the former can do nothing to speed themselves up.

 

Lyn Mode energy ring + robe are better suited for Florina than Lyn. Florina is capable of doing much more than Lyn (by herself as well), so it makes sense to give the tools to someone more capable.

 

RNG screwed is an argument, because some are more prone to it than others. If Raven receives no stats in 5 levels, he's still a really good unit. If Lyn receives the same, she's really bad. Some characters, like Marcus and Harken, are almost immune to RNG screws. Others, like Raven, are resistant to it. Some are too susceptible to it, like Lyn. It's one of Lyn's weaknesses.

 

And you still cling to this Florina/Lyn support like it's some sort of divine calling. If you're willing to slow down that much, we can apply that logic to the rest of the game. Let's build Raven/Priscilla support and make Raven an untouchable monster. Suddenly Lyn pales in comparison to Raven in usefulness again. That support is only a band aid for Lyn that others don't need to do well.

Edited November 18, 2017 by msterforks

[Slumber]

3 hours ago, Xanaxian said:

You could do worse than Lyn. 

I'm not a fan of her low strength and terrible defense, but she's bound to be a better myrm than Guy, and she isn't even a proper myrm.

How? I mean, I don't even hate Lyn. I pretty much use her out of obligation, but...

At level 3(Recruitment level), HM Guy has 8 more HP, 3 more strength, 5 more skill, 3 more speed, 1 less luck, 4 more defense, and the same res as Lyn at level 3. He starts in a much, much, much better position than Lyn does, AND he'll promote earlier.

Growth-wise. At 20/20, supposing you get them both there(Realistically, if you get one to 20/20, it's not going to be Lyn), Guy has 12 more HP, the same strength, the same defense, and he'll cap speed and skill at about the same time or sooner.

Guy ALSO gets the crit bonus, while Lyn doesn't.

Lyn has a lead in luck(lol), 5 points of res over Guy, the admittedly very good, but limited use Mani Katti, a legendary weapon that drops her speed by 8, and bows in a game where bows are really bad.

I don't think Guy is particularly good, but the things he offers are a lot more appealing than Lyn. Namely a stronger start, and the ability to continue being useful for pretty much all the game.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Slumber

[RedRob]

What about support bonuses? Both in terms of boosts they get, and give?

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, msterforks said:

Dodge tanking is not reliable when half the game has weapon triangle advantage against you. No, lancereavers don't count, since they're limited in uses and not strong enough to one round cavs or dent wyverns.

You can buy as many Lancereavers as you want. Functionally, they aren't limited except for the dent using them has on your Funds ranking (which any given player may or may not care about). There are only three maps with wyverns before you can buy them. In one of them, they all use Axereavers anyway, and in another, there are only a small number who likely die to Pent. (Lyn's bad on that map anyway, mind, but so is everyone else who isn't a mage or flier.)

Lancereavers not strong enough... what? They're 11 might against lances! That's only -1 compared to a steel axe, +1 on a steel lance, +3 on a hand axe. I can't speak to what levels/supports you're assuming but my experience is this should one-round cavaliers without much issue, wyverns may be more borderline though. Any wyverns who do survive (those who don't eat it to a random crit) will be one poke from death, so yeah, lancereaver Lyn (or whoever) can go in and clean up against a crop of wyverns just fine while being literally unkillable.

A number of the units you hype as superior to Lyn either have similar attack (Kent, Florina, Fiora) or lower (Lowen), so if Lyn's offence isn't sufficing against a wyvern, neither is theirs. Lancereaver Sain and Raven are indeed better wyvern killers. Raven is also arguably the best unit in the game, certainly the best unit without a special property (flight or dance or being super-overlevelled), and Sain is pretty beastly too outside his shaky base speed, so Lyn losing to them isn't a cause for shame.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Dark Holy Elf

[Slumber]

3 hours ago, RedRob said:

What about support bonuses? Both in terms of boosts they get, and give?

This reminds me that I should have put this in my last post...

For Guy and Lyn, hey have very similar affinities, with Guy's being slightly better, as normal evade isn't as niche as critical evade. 

On the flipside, Lyn does have better benefits from her support options, as Eliwood will boost her attack,  defense and evade, and Hector will boost her defense, evade and crit though her defense boost won't be as much of a factor with her affinity. Guy would only get extra durability from Karel, which wouldn't be a good scenario, anyway. The rest of his notable options will either boost his attack and/or criticals, which isn't bad, but it's not as nice as some more durability. Though most of his support options are pretty good units(Matthew, Rath, Priscilla).

Lyn's got the edge in supports, but I still don't think it's enough to make her bad bases and late promotion less of an issue. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Slumber

[Just call me AL]

5 hours ago, msterforks said:

Plus, the Mani Katti isn't all that powerful to begin with.

It's powerful enough to be listed as a boon for her when, you know, talking about her benefits as a unit.

5 hours ago, msterforks said:

And you still cling to this Florina/Lyn support like it's some sort of divine calling. If you're willing to slow down that much, we can apply that logic to the rest of the game.

The entire support chain is, what, 41 turns? Hardly a slowdown by any means if Eliwood/Hector is viable as well, and that's a slower support than Lyn/Florina.

[Florete]

I feel like I'm reading and responding to arguments from 5 years ago.

Quote

Apparently you only see two options: LTC or super casual slow.

I've mentioned ranked multiple times. That's my preferred method, but I also like to take a more casual style into account. Not slow, mind you, but just a player playing to beat the game with units they feel like using.

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Even in the average playthrough, move is very helpful

It's also true that not all maps are suited for moving fast. The difference between Lyn and high movement units is that the latter can slow themselves down when necessary, while the former can do nothing to speed themselves up.

I said as much myself.

Dark Holy Elf covered the dodging and Lancereaver stuff. And honestly, in terrain, Lyn's avoid is good enough that weaker lance users may have trouble hitting even at WTA.

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Therefore Lyn is not competing against enemies; she's competing against other characters for deployment slots.

Yeah, 5 years give or take. This is an argument in some scenarios, but none I care for. I don't subscribe to the logic that everyone other than the best is bad.

@Hector/Raven/Ninian stuff: I know these units are good. Like, really? The point I was making is that they have the same movement issues as Lyn (worse in Hector's case), but people rarely use that as a point against them when they're really not all that much better than Lyn. Context depending, I'd even argue Lyn could be better than Hector.

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Lyn Mode energy ring + robe are better suited for Florina than Lyn. Florina is capable of doing much more than Lyn (by herself as well), so it makes sense to give the tools to someone more capable.

Robe I give to Florina, but Ring I usually give to Lyn. I see this more as a matter of preference or circumstance, neither one really needs the Ring unless you can see they are falling behind. Robe is usually better for Florina, though.

 

6 hours ago, msterforks said:

And you still cling to this Florina/Lyn support like it's some sort of divine calling. If you're willing to slow down that much, we can apply that logic to the rest of the game. Let's build Raven/Priscilla support and make Raven an untouchable monster. Suddenly Lyn pales in comparison to Raven in usefulness again. That support is only a band aid for Lyn that others don't need to do well.

Slow down? Ha! It's 41 turns to A. It is literally the fastest A rank in the game. I utilized this support in my hard mode ranked runs. Raven and Priscilla takes 74 turns to reach A and gives all of +1 atk, +1 def, +7 avoid, +7 crit, and a load of useless accuracy and crit evade. Ice/Wind is horrible. If you want to argue just B for the atk/def boost that's 47 turns, but since Priscilla is a healer it's a lot harder to constantly have her land herself next to the same unit all the time whereas Florina and Lyn are both combatants so they just need to be fighting in the same area.

For the record, I already believe Raven and Priscilla both are better units than Lyn. In ranked HHM I consider Priscilla straight up the best unit in the game.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Florete

[Harvey]

12 hours ago, Talandar said:

The fact that you cannot see these difference makes your entire claim questionable. But seeing your statement about Marcus confirms that you aren't capable of holding these kind of discussions in the first place.

To be frank, I don't revisit FE games that often and its only in rare cases that I do. But the thing is, I still don't get Lyn being a bad unit or lord because she's just passable and not someone who is going to be a pain to use despite her low def. On my one playthrough, she was pretty good and she killed out a couple of annoying bosses and was pretty much fun to mess around with. Sure, she's not as dodgy but that would otherwise make her broken wouldn't it?

Well, I guess Marcus just got lucky that enemies speed are on par as his...still don't like him though.