Weapon Refinery and it's Beneficiaries

[eclipse]

45 minutes ago, Clogon said:

But this is making him into a budget Roy and does not play off his stength of being a better mage tank DC user. Either way, I like that it allows him to be built in different ways to fill different roles now.

Any mage tank of mine must be able to counter said mage.  I suppose DC Blazing Eliwood would fit the bill, but I don't have a spare Hector.

[bottlegnomes]

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Moonbow is weak, especially against the typical squishy ranged attackers.

Ridersbane ensures a kill on counterattack against cavalry, and Berkut's Lance raises the threshold to one-hit kill her with magic. With Berkut's Lance, it takes 83 Atk to land a one-hit kill against Effie [=HP, =Res] (Berkut's Lance+, Distant Counter, Wary Fighter 3, Distant Def 3), 58 Atk for a two-hit kill (54 Atk with a Moonbow activation), 91 Atk for a one-hit kill at +10, and 64 Atk for a two-hit kill at +10 (59 Atk with a Moonbow activation).

Huh, wouldn't have expected the +4 res to make that much of a difference. I would've thought that the extra -30% def would be more useful for potentially one-shotting more durable enemies. Didn't think the +4 would make her that much more durable. But I'm also not a whale by any means so I don't face those types of teams very often.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

The investment cost is very high if you want any consistent return.

Slaying Lance is pretty rare since only Nephenee has it and she has only been in her debut banner so far. Distant Counter is more affordable since Hector is more widely available, but it is not exactly cheap either.

Effie or any armor unit are basically dead weight in a mixed team. Armor teams are impractical until the player is able to get enough merges on everyone to prevent ranged pony teams from appearing frequently.

In contrast, investing in ranged units is a lot cheaper and the returns are astronomically higher. Unless you are a whale, the opportunity cost is too high to not invest in cheaper and better ranged units, or even just melee infantry units.

Makes sense.

 

18 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Any mage tank of mine must be able to counter said mage.  I suppose DC Blazing Eliwood would fit the bill, but I don't have a spare Hector.

True dat. B!Lyn best mage tank.

[Kaden]

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yes, its Japanese name is "Distant Def Bow". I'm guessing it has Distant Def 2 or Distant Def 3 built-in, more likely Distant Def 3 since I think the developers are realizing that defensive boosts need to be higher to see actual use.

Changing Daggerbreaker to Distant Def isn't too different from Excalibur changing flier effectiveness to Wo Dao's effect, Aura changing Breath of Life 2 to Hone Melee Atk 5, or Tyrfing changing Defiant Armored Blow Steady Stance 2 to Resistance +3 and first-hit Deflect Magic 2.

I meant weird in that it seems like the only regular weapon to gain or change its effect from its previous form. Killer weapons just gain Mt by becoming Slaying weapons which seems like what the anti-armor weapons and anti-cavalry tomes will do too.

It's a rash conclusion since the exact details aren't known, though. What also does not help when the English names for evolved versions of Hammer and Heavy Spear are Slaying Hammer and Slaying Spear. I don't know what the Japanese and other translated names are, but it's a bit confusing when Armorslayer's evolution is Armorsmasher and the Slaying weapons are stronger Killer weapons. Couldn't they have called it Smashing Hammer and Smashing Spear? The implication of an anti-armor weapon with -1 special cooldown...

[Ice Dragon]

7 minutes ago, Kaden said:

I don't know what the Japanese and other translated names are

• Kill Sword+ → Forged Kill Sword+
  • "Kill Sword Forged+" if you keep the word order, but "Forged Kill Sword+" is conveys the meaning more accurately in English
• Killer Lance+ → Forged Killer Lance+
• Killer Axe+ → Forged Killer Axe+
• Killer Bow+ → Forged Killer Bow+
• Armorkiller+ → Forged Armorkiller+
• Piercing Lance+ → Forged Piercing Lance+
  • "Armorbreak" was the Heavy Spear's internal name in the earliest game with internal names in the game data for regular weapons, but I'll use the literal translation instead.
• Hammer+ → Forged Hammer+
• Raudhrwolf+ → Forged Raudhrwolf+
• Blarwolf+ → Forged Blarwolf+
• Gronnwolf+ → Forged Gronnwolf+

Because no, we can't have simplicity in the English localization. Everything needs to be fancy.

Never mind the obvious fact that words need to actually fit in the space provided.

[Kaden]

16 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

• Kill Sword+ → Forged Kill Sword+
  • "Kill Sword Forged+" if you keep the word order, but "Forged Kill Sword+" is conveys the meaning more accurately in English
• Killer Lance+ → Forged Killer Lance+
• Killer Axe+ → Forged Killer Axe+
• Killer Bow+ → Forged Killer Bow+
• Armorkiller+ → Forged Armorkiller+
• Piercing Lance+ → Forged Piercing Lance+
  • "Armorbreak" was the Heavy Spear's internal name in the earliest game with internal names in the game data for regular weapons, but I'll use the literal translation instead.
• Hammer+ → Forged Hammer+
• Raudhrwolf+ → Forged Raudhrwolf+
• Blarwolf+ → Forged Blarwolf+
• Gronnwolf+ → Forged Gronnwolf+

Because no, we can't have simplicity in the English localization. Everything needs to be fancy.

Never mind the obvious fact that words need to actually fit in the space provided.

Thanks. The -wolf tomes at least don't mislead anything since "keen" isn't used anywhere else and wouldn't imply anything else really. Slaying is fine to differentiate between Killer, Armorslayer carried over from Blazing Sword apparently even though Armor Killer from the original Shadow Dragon (FE1) would have been fine and could have worked for its upgraded form, and Armorsmasher works since smashing armor seems pretty brutal and "anti-armor-y". Slaying should have not even made it past brainstorming prefixes for upgraded versions of Hammer and Heavy Spear. The dumb thing is that Piercing Spear would have fit in the space -- at least I think it would have -- or they could have called it Heavier Spear if they couldn't think something. Of all the words to use...

At this rate, I can't wait for a weapon to be introduced with a name that makes no sense to its effect. Mage Masher (Lance): Effective against fliers. Ah, yes, the Mage Masher, a weapon clearly for mashing flying units, a quality associated with lances, long-shafted weapons tipped or bladed at the end. Clearly such a name would not imply a blunt weapon such as a warhammer or mace that is meant to defeat mages. Nobody would be misled or confused by that.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Kaden

[Vaximillian]

4 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Armorslayer carried over from Blazing Sword apparently even though Armor Killer from Shadow Dragon would have been fine…

I assume you mean either Japanese Shadow Dragon or the original Shadow Dragon because in the localised Shadow Dragon the sword is, in fact, called armourslayer:

[Kaden]

@Vaximillian, yeah, I meant the original version Shadow Dragon.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

8 hours ago, Clogon said:

But this is making him into a budget Roy and does not play off his stength of being a better mage tank DC user. Either way, I like that it allows him to be built in different ways to fill different roles now.

One area that can be improved with Eliwood is by running Speed Ploy/ATK Ploy. He have 32 res at base and as a result can neutralize his atk difference and surpass Roy with Spd ploy applied

 

As a player phase nuke i dont think Roy is getting matched anytime soon(he can reach 37 speed or 38 atk to Eliwood 33 spd and 37 atk free of charge) but dropping him into inferior role for the sake of variety isnt that nice 

 

DC RTB Eliwood is a neat set though but i feel due to the nature of Brave Durandal the sweeper set remains his best

[Tenzen12]

For non-whales who care "Budget Roy" might turn into "Better Roy" as Eliwoods  copies are easily accessible for merge which alsi comes in with "choose your boon" optionin same package.

[Stroud]

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 2:32 PM, Birdy said:

It was +2 for Ephraim's Siegmund, but with that came a new passive. Without the passive, he would have gotten +5 attack, same as the silver lance.

Wasn't the boost of silver lance+ just 3 more attack with attack boost and +1 attack on every other?
Silver lance+ has 15 Mt by default.
But still, I failed to see that the maximum increase of Ephraims weapon is just 2 on attack boost and 0 on every other.

I'm thinking about Seliph now what a decent build could be...
Are skills which boost his res on enemy attack worth it with a res+ Seliph?
Maybe Eliwood and Seliph should trade their swords now. 
Imagine... Eliwood with Divine Tyrfing. 

 

[Ice Dragon]

13 minutes ago, Stroud said:

Wasn't the boost of silver lance+ just 3 more attack with attack boost and +1 attack on every other?
Silver lance+ has 15 Mt by default.
But still, I failed to see that the maximum increase of Ephraims weapon is just 2 on attack boost and 0 on every other.

The boost of Silver Lance+ is +5 HP and +1 Atk by default and an additional +2 Atk, +3 Spd, +4 Def, or +4 Res depending on the branch.

Siegmund's boost is Hone Atk 2 upgraded to Hone Atk 3 and +5 HP by default where the choices are the unique effect and -2 HP or any of the four standard choices.

 

18 minutes ago, Stroud said:

I'm thinking about Seliph now what a decent build could be...
Are skills which boost his res on enemy attack worth it with a res+ Seliph?
Maybe Eliwood and Seliph should trade their swords now. 
Imagine... Eliwood with Divine Tyrfing. 

It's actually sub-optimal to boost Res when you have an effect that reduces damage by 50% because every 1 point of Res you add only decreases the damage you take by 0.5 points instead of 1 point.

Which actually means that as long as you weren't 1-2 HP away from being one-round killed by key match-ups, decreasing your Res is optimal because it only increases the damage you take by 0.5 points instead of 1 point for every 1 point of Res.

[Stroud]

20 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which actually means that as long as you weren't 1-2 HP away from being one-round killed by key match-ups, decreasing your Res is optimal because it only increases the damage you take by 0.5 points instead of 1 point for every 1 point of Res.

I see, that makes sense.

But it still depends on if his Res at the end is odd or even if I am not mistaken.
Res + Seliph has 25 Res, with Divine Tyrfing (Res+3) he has 28. In this case it is even. If he would have 27 or 29 Res the 0.5 points are wasted.
Of course this does not tell if Res is good for him. I still got the Idea that Res+ is not the best option for Seliph.
 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Stroud

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Stroud said:

But it still depends on if his Res at the end is odd or even if I am not mistaken.

It matters if the damage before the 50% reduction would be odd or even, not whether his Res stat is odd or even.

If both the opponent's effective Atk and Seliph's Res were odd, he'd get the full benefit of 50% damage reduction.

[Stroud]

42 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It matters if the damage before the 50% reduction would be odd or even, not whether his Res stat is odd or even.

If both the opponent's effective Atk and Seliph's Res were odd, he'd get the full benefit of 50% damage reduction

In other words. HP + makes more sense if Damage is reduced by 50% and it is about bulk, because every  HP (no matter odd or even) is worth 2 Res in this case.
Damn this took me too long. I should have seen that, even if I ignored the damage calculation. Thanks for input. 

I just play the game and succeed in Arena without putting this much thoughts in stat building, as long as boon/bane are not totally wrong on my units.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Stroud

[XRay]

4 minutes ago, Stroud said:

I just play the game and succeed in Arena without putting this much thoughts in stat building, as long as boon/bane are not totally wrong on my units.

Generally, natures are not a big deal in Tier 18 and maybe Tier 19, as long as the nature does not impact a unit's role negatively. For most units and builds, as long as the nature is not -Spd, almost any nature is viable.