I didn't like Conquest

[DragonFlames]

On 20.11.2017 at 9:49 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'll admit using some units is quite challenging, since enemy stats are high unlike Thracia, and that really we shouldn't have been given Nyx with her bases- her Mag and Spd needed to be blossoming off the bat. Trainees, although strategic in that you're sacrificing in the short term for gain in the long term, just aren't really suited to CQ and should have been largely done away with. Not to say everyone should have broken bases, but they should be at least somewhat competent at their role, Nyx isn't a competent magial class cannon off the bat.

Agreed.

CQ, in being challenging, forces you to use a bunch of units whether you like them or not, since if you could just use anyone, things wouldn't possibly be so challenging. Also, letting enemies use skills outside of their class or even in their class is just a leveling of a playing field. You can use skills from any classes, why not they? Inevitable End is broken, but that's about it.

Not when said skills are hacked or unaivalable to the character in question (case in point: Grisly Wound on Kagero, Inevitable End, Staff Savant).
If I can't use everyone, then what's the point in replaying it? And if you're not supposed to use certain people, then why give them to the player in the first place? As noob traps? To fill the roster? I don't know about you, but I want to be able to use any character / unit that I want and not be punished for it by making certain maps next to impossible to complete. Maybe I've been playing Fire Emblem for all the wrong reasons, but I enjoy being able to replay the games using different characters I haven't used in previous runs.

What world do you live in? Kinshi Knights are awful compared to Wyvern Lords!

Tell that to Hinoka's chapter.

They have decent Speed, but dump the rest in Res, Skill, and Luck , which is awful. They're physically frail and weak. To serve as a true anti-air monstrosity, not only would they need really good Defense and HP, but they'd need Point Blank or the Mini Bow since enemy fliers typically come in groups and normally you won't have many Kinshi. And the whole point to Kinshi anti-air is the idea it can intercept and destroy enemy fliers before they get in range of your groundlings. One Kinshi can't do that.

What is good about them, Air Superiority? Like dodgetanking is viable in Fates outside of Ryoma most of the time? And Amaterasu doesn't exist for 95% of the game.

They have high Mov, aren't impeded by terrain and can use bows. "Low" strength aside, I don't see a negative, honestly. Also, Ryoma? I'm sorry, but I don't believe in the story that Ryoma can supposedly solo Birthright (or anything in Fates, really). He got hit and died just as much as anyone else in Birthright for me. I do agree that dodgetanking isn't viable (unless the enemy does it), but excluding Ryoma from that point is - from my personal point of view - plain wrong.
Before you - or anyone else for that matter - shoot me, consider that I can only speak from my personal experience.

On the topic of Air Superiority: I always use it for offensive purposes, rather than defensive. It basically negates Bow Breaker, which some of the fliers on Hinoka's map have.

Camilla is has some of the highest growths in Fates, RNG screwing you aside, which it might have. Percy has low Strength, but the rest of his stats are solid. Beruka is crappy statwise, but the Wyvern Rider family is highly mobile and comes with nice skills like Savage Blow and Defense Rally. Scarlet on BR is Camilla lite.

Funny, because Milk Tits has always turned out mediocre any time I've used her. Sure, she is pretty much a must-field due to her strong bases and Conquest being what it is, but... in the end, she always fell short for whatever reason, so toward the end, I rather used other fliers (read: Mozu) instead, thus making any kill she got, wasted.
Same with Silas and his supposedly "high" growths. I really have no idea what it is about these two that makes them suck so much in my playthroughs. I legitimately had Silas at 10 Def at level 20 in Birthright once and his other stats weren't that much better, either.
I can't say much about Scarlet other than the fact that I didn't use her, since I pretty much already picked who I wanted to use by the time she joins. And in Revelation, well... you know what happens to her. I'm sure she is a good unit, but as I've said, I haven't had any experience with her, so I couldn't say. 

I will let you besmirk the rest, but Hinoka is not bad in the least! Subaki has nonexistent Speed growth, so he is bad beyond being a ferrybot. But Hinoka has wickedly high growths, RNG screwage aside again. Sky Knight being a crappy class in Fates, it holds her back vs. a reclass to Spear Fighter, but even within it she has more or less comparable stats to Mozu, and requires a lot less effort to use. Not to mention she can be one of those Kinshi Knights you find so broken. 

See, if she has comparable stats to a unit / character I actually like, chances are I'm going to use that unit / character instead. This is just a "me" thing, but... you know. I believe we all have our favourites, right?
Birthright dumps so many lance users on you that Hinoka becomes superfluous outside of Dragon Vein utility, which you can still supplement by getting a kid or two. Dragon Vein's aren't even that common on Birthright, so you can make do with Cornbread, Lobster, Taco Meme, Octopus Lucina and / or pink Jailbait, thus rendering discount Sully the same thing that she is in the story - irrelevant.

What do you want, tanks that are invincible? Xander has tanked Kotaro's fight plenty for me. All you have to do is get his (or Benny's, Effie's, or Percy's) defense so high that even when debuffed enemies can't scratch him outside of Poison Strike. Poison Strike can't kill by itself. Of course, having a Xander so tanky means the enemies will outright ignore him barring a Lunge into enemies that can hurt him. But that's a smart AI for you! It'd be stupid if they actually tried to attack him. 

I want tanks that can survive more than three hits, at least. Combining shuriken debuffs with Poison Strike damage and -poof!- your precious older brother just bit the dust, failing at what he was supposed to do. Best tank. 10/10 would bench again.
But all satirical exaggeration aside, I could never once rely on Xander to tank anything in Ninja hell. While Poison damage can't kill, it adds up enough that he'll die the second something DOES damage him. Maybe I did something wrong, but... eh, I probably just suck at this game. Actually, scratch the "probably". I do suck at this game.

Perhaps Poison Strike was too commonplace (and this too applies for certain Seal skills), but it does serve as a check, different from the one mages and effective weapons serve, on high Def units. Invincible tanking you can do endlessly without worry = nonstrategic tanking.

I don't want an invincible tank, I want a tank that can do his / her job. That is, lure in enemies for others to kill without dying themselves, or holding off some folks in order for me to reposition myself or keep other units safe. And Conquest has next to no tanks that can do that reliably. The closest thing to a reliable tank Conquest gives you is Benny, but he needs to learn Wary Fighter first and isn't exactly immune to Shuriken Poison hell, either.
I do agree that they went way overboard with the usage of Poison and Seal skills, though... that crap was annoying.

The broken Laguz Royals and other units, the severely handicapped Vika and Fiona et al., and the Part system making availability a real issue and forcing you to use certain characters?

Yup, that. That is exactly what I mean. It is my biggest issue with any game that gives you the choice to use one over another and then goes out of its way to let you know that your choice was wrong. Radiant Dawn and Conquest are two such games.  To speak in Wimpy Camus' words: "Choice is an illusion."
Maybe this is me kidding myself, but I feel that in other Fire Emblem games, you COULD use anyone you wanted and still beat the game. In Sacred Stones, you could decide to use Marisa instead of Joshua and NOT be severely punished for it. In Blazing Sword, you could decide to bench two out of three lords entirely and you could still complete the game even on it's hardest difficulty setting. In Shadow Dragon, the units you can choose from are a plenty and you can use... nearly anyone and not have your enjoyment of the game utterly stomped into a pulp.
Conquest just throws you curveball after curveball after curveball if you dare and use units other than the intended ones. Not using Leo? Too bad, no strong / accurate / semi-tanky magic user for you, so go and have fun in dodgetank, heavy-hitter city! Not using Effie? What are you, stupid? Leaving out Camilla and Xander? Hah! Door is this way, friendo! Trying to use Nyx, Arthur, Charlotte or Peri for anything other than pair-up fodder? ... You do realize this game is about "winning", do you?
... Something to that effect, at least.

Sorry if I came off as somewhat hostile in my replies. I didn't mean to. I do see your points, agree with some of them, even, and I did enjoy my recent successful Conquest Hard Mode playthrough a lot, but... sadly, I am so harsh toward Fates, Conquest especially, because I do see some problems with it that I feel didn't need to be there.
If the devs weren't so obviously biased toward the Royal families to the point that you are handicapping yourself if you don't use them, if they balanced out the units, classes and weapons better, if they just made it so people like me, who enjoy Fire Emblem for the freedom of choice I have come to know and love about these games, I wouldn't be here writing paragraph upon paragraph about my grievances, but about what I love about it instead. But as it stands, the negatives far outweigh the positives for me.

@Armagon I don't necessarily hate Fates. It's more that it's an utter disappointment for me. I dislike it, but I still have fun with it. It's a grey area, really. About the Conquest map themes: they get stale and annoying really, really fast for me. Rest assured, I'm not disliking the music to be a contrarian or some kind of crap to that effect. 
I'm fine with the Birthright map themes. Most of the ones from Revelation are pretty cool, as well. Also "A Dark Fall" is one of the best pieces of music Fire Emblem has to offer in my opinion, the battle version especially so.  The rest... eh. Not my kind of music, honestly.

Edited November 21, 2017 by DragonFlames

[Jotari]

So despite my complaints, a trip abroad and really getting into a show called Orphan Black (I'm a fan of multi tasking, ie playing games and watching stuff at the same time), I actually have done a second Conquest run. I think I am enjoying it more than the first (though I've only gotten as far as Kotaro's chapter so far, we'll see how the other bullshit chapters treat me). But I'm also pretty sure that's because I decided to use both Benny and Effie and reclass Corrin to Knight. Their massive defense seems to be the only reliable way to tackle so many obstacles in the game (the Ninjas don't even bother touching me because they can't deal any damage, even though Savage Blow and Poison Strike would wipe out near half of my HP as a passive effect). I'm also making liberal use of DLC classes/skills and the Unit Logbook for skill transfer (I seriously don't know how anyone's expected to deal with the last few enemies around Kotaro without using a Ballistician to whittle down their HP. Any combat with the Master Ninjas will devestate a unit's HP and the Sword Master will finish them off. You can't even rush them because there's so little space and Kotaro is filling the center of the area with his guaranteed doubling speed). That one boss with Rally Defense has provided crucial too. And even with those advantages, I find that I'm still running into the problem that my strategy is completely sound but I just have to keep replaying the level in the hopes that certain 60% attacks will either hit or miss. So bottom line, I stand by all my complains of Conquest, but I am enough of a machochist to get some enjoyment out of it (and also this is the best Generals have ever been as units).

Edited December 7, 2017 by Jotari

[De Geso]

ITT: People who should become proficient before posting

[joshcja]

3 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

ITT: People who should become proficient before posting

^ This.

Actual explanation:

Strike/Wound need the unit to survive a round of combat to trigger and it's pretty easy to boost a dude or dudette to 32 speed (doubling after debuff) to orko skin of paper bones of glass muscle of aushwitz victim MN's in 17 en-mass. BK!Niles holding Be Arthur can kill 90% of that map on EP if he stands by a wall under tonics+meal.

Mechanists and Sams actually hurt but they can be nostanked alongside their puppet pals so they're just completely non-threatening.

17 is a polite warning to not use AK lol.

Ending area is a joke because staves and heartseeker exist.

Edit: Pretty sure I listed the good EP builds earlier in the thread.... yes, yes I sure did.

Edited December 7, 2017 by joshcja

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

^ This.

Actual explanation:

Strike/Wound need the unit to survive a round of combat to trigger and it's pretty easy to boost a dude or dudette to 32 speed (doubling after debuff) to orko skin of paper bones of glass muscle of aushwitz victim MN's in 17 en-mass. BK!Niles holding Be Arthur can kill 90% of that map on EP if he stands by a wall under tonics+meal.

Mechanists and Sams actually hurt but they can be nostanked alongside their puppet pals so they're just completely non-threatening.

17 is a polite warning to not use AK lol.

Ending area is a joke because staves and heartseeker exist.

Edit: Pretty sure I listed the good EP builds earlier in the thread.... yes, yes I sure did.

Ah, of course. Staves. I should really remember they're something the player can use too.

[Dean]

Oh I'm on Chapter 17 as well right now. *checks Niles' stats*

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Dean said:

Oh I'm on Chapter 17 as well right now. *checks Niles' stats*

Level 4 Bow Knight.

29 HP

20 str

6 mag

Skill 20

Spd 24

Lck 15

Def 20

Res 22

[Dean]

Damn your Niles got that defense. Mine’s Lvl 18 Outlaw and hits the relevant offensive benchmarks (needs an Azura song if he gets hit by a Silver Shuriken though) and barely ekes out enough defense to not die with Lily’s Poise and Demoiselle.

 

Arthur / Beruka / Silas / Jakob are looking like they can do the job as well with a good attack stance.

[joshcja]

4 hours ago, Dean said:

Damn your Niles got that defense. Mine’s Lvl 18 Outlaw and hits the relevant offensive benchmarks (needs an Azura song if he gets hit by a Silver Shuriken though) and barely ekes out enough defense to not die with Lily’s Poise and Demoiselle.

 

Arthur / Beruka / Silas / Jakob are looking like they can do the job as well with a good attack stance.

Yeah, Niles isn't the "best" possible killbot in 17 but even unpromoted on lunatic he's pretty much gaurenteed to do the job.

[Nobody]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Level 4 Bow Knight.

29 HP

20 str

6 mag

Skill 20

Spd 24

Lck 15

Def 20

Res 22

24 + 2 (tonics) + 4 (kaze pair up) + 1 meal + 3 (azura dance) = 34

Kotaro's speed = 27 (including shuriken)

There, I beat chapter 17 for you

Edited December 8, 2017 by Nobody

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, Dean said:

Damn your Niles got that defense. Mine’s Lvl 18 Outlaw and hits the relevant offensive benchmarks (needs an Azura song if he gets hit by a Silver Shuriken though) and barely ekes out enough defense to not die with Lily’s Poise and Demoiselle.

 

Arthur / Beruka / Silas / Jakob are looking like they can do the job as well with a good attack stance.

I think I have got a bit defense blessed (and slightly spreed screwed), but I'm also pretty sure I gave him the Draco Shield from the defense chapter which fuddles the numbers slightly (Chapter 10?)

1 hour ago, Nobody said:

24 + 2 (tonics) + 4 (kaze pair up) + 1 meal + 3 (azura dance) = 34

Kotaro's speed = 27 (including shuriken)

There, I beat chapter 17 for you

Well I'm on chapter 19 by now (actually Percy's paralogue after grinding up Azura to learn Rally Speed for my perfect Rally Bot).