Persona 5 Mafia - Game Over

[Mackc2]

19 minutes ago, Refa said:

Fair enough on this.  What do you think about the votes on you?

There are some good cases on me, not changing my vote after being pointed out by BBM is a solid reason to vote me as it shows inconsistencies in my intentions and what I say and I should have clarified my reasons a bit quicker. Sully has a pretty creative reason and I like it I wish I had of thought of that maybe I wouldn't have voted Michelaar then. I'm annoyed  that shinori is voting me on my second post of all the things 

1 minute ago, SullyMcGully said:

I just remember that in the Kemono Friends game, somebody mentioned something about Michelaar having been a townie who gave off bad vibes and got mislynched in the previous three games. Then he got mislynched in that one too.

The reason Michelaar is always lynched when he is town is because he doesn't comment on the game and is overly defensive when people prod at his inactivity so yeah it would be a decent idea to prod him and try to draw suspision onto him but the thing is Quite a few players in this game have played Michelaar before and should be somewhat familiar with him (Refa, Prims, Shinori, Marth) and it would be hard to pull a lynch on him because these members are the most active and could easily just change the opinion on him by saying it is how he plays. Besides Michelaar the way to improve your play style is just to be a bit more active, I'm not suspect of you but I would like you to put in your say on matters too.

[SB.]

Votals 1.3

Mackc2 (4): BBM, Shinori, Refa, SullyMcGully
Ken Masters (3): Baldrick, Prims, Bartozio
Bartozio (2):  Marth, Via
Refa (1): Ken Masters
Shinori (1): Michelaar
Michelaar (1): Mackc2

Not Voting (1): kirsche

With 13 alive, it takes 5 to lynch and 9 to hammer. You have 45 hours and 30 minutes left in the day.

[Refa]

31 minutes ago, Magnificence Incarnate said:

The difference between me possibly voting Mack and Bart voting Ken is obvious. 

Ken had 3 votes before Bart voted him. Mack only had 1.  I don't see how 4 votes on an ED1 wagon should be considered normal?

Why is it scummier to sheep a wagon w/3 votes as opposed to 1?

31 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

So I wrote that last post before I saw Mack's post. I still believe what I wrote, though, and nothing in Mack's post really disproves it. I guess what I'm asking is: does anybody else think Mackc2 could have been targeting Michelaar based off of previous games' results? 

I think your case is a bit of a stretch.  Considering the strength of Mackc2's vote on him, scum!him would be voting Michelaar because it's an easy vote to make, not because he believes he can get a mislynch off of it.

15 minutes ago, Magnificence Incarnate said:

I feel like Sully is being setup to be lynchbait, just by general thread flow.  Like the way people are pressuring him, along with him admitting to attempting to blend in, and just the whole effort he's making in trying to understand the thread. I don't have time to explain this so remind me when I'm back but I wouldn't lynch here.

If the reason for voting Ken is his reaction, then I'm not bothered by Ken at all? Like that is his personality, I haven't talked to him a lot but I've played with him in a couple of games and seen postgame stuff. In general he's pretty silly and aggressive and more of a brawn over brains guy.

I gotta mention, Bartozio has been mislynched in all the three games that he has played on here, so I'm pretty paranoid about it. That said,  why would you leave his sheep vote alone? This slot needs to be presured at the very least, like how is his vote townie in any way? There's resistance to my read but no explanation for that so ???

I don't really like Mack's vote on Mich because it isn't pushing the game anywhere. He knows of mich's playstyle so this looks p scummy.

But I'm the only person who has cased and pressured Sully.

Can you explain your Ken read more?  What bothers me about Ken personally is that he's only responding to issues with him and not really bothering to engage with the rest of the game.  Also his reaction to you combined with that is like weirdly reactionary.

I don't think Bart's initial vote was townie, but I liked his followup regarding his Ken read.  What are your thoughts on that?

[SullyMcGully]

Well, Baldrick said this:

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

I know there's not much material to go off, but either make your best guess or question someone to try and get more material. As I said before, weak reads don't bother me, but not having any reads or making any effort to get them bothers me.

That's the only other instance of "pressure" I can think of. Unless you two are in league in which case we should all go ahead and surrender I don't think there's much to go off of. 

[Refa]

17 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

There are some good cases on me, not changing my vote after being pointed out by BBM is a solid reason to vote me as it shows inconsistencies in my intentions and what I say and I should have clarified my reasons a bit quicker. Sully has a pretty creative reason and I like it I wish I had of thought of that maybe I wouldn't have voted Michelaar then. I'm annoyed  that shinori is voting me on my second post of all the things 

The reason Michelaar is always lynched when he is town is because he doesn't comment on the game and is overly defensive when people prod at his inactivity so yeah it would be a decent idea to prod him and try to draw suspision onto him but the thing is Quite a few players in this game have played Michelaar before and should be somewhat familiar with him (Refa, Prims, Shinori, Marth) and it would be hard to pull a lynch on him because these members are the most active and could easily just change the opinion on him by saying it is how he plays. Besides Michelaar the way to improve your play style is just to be a bit more active, I'm not suspect of you but I would like you to put in your say on matters too.

I know I said I got your vote before, but after rereading I don't get what you think leaving a vote on Michelaar is going to accomplish.  You've played with him before, do you think he's going to leave a telling response in his next post?  Because I kind of doubt that.

Something about the bolded section bothers me but I can't get a definite read on why that is.

[Baldrick]

@marth; one of the Ken votes was RVS, there's not a big difference between a wagon of 2 and a wagon of 1.

My vote is on Ken because he's refusing to post reads. His reaction has nothing to do with it, I was starting to see Sully the same way before their Mack vote.

I've found Mack's content agreeable enough, but what you and Sully said has me a little suspicious. I agree with Prims re: your Bart case, so I'm interested in seeing how this interaction develops.  

Anyone I haven't mentioned I'm either comfortable with, or I've forgotten they're playing.

@refa; it seems to me like he's talking about the reaction to Michelaar from a scum perspective? Mackc, you should clarify what you are wanting from Michelaar.

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

@refa; it seems to me like he's talking about the reaction to Michelaar from a scum perspective? Mackc, you should clarify what you are wanting from Michelaar.

I know that but like...I don't get what he's trying to prove with that?  Is he saying that Scum!Him wouldn't vote Michelaar?  

[SullyMcGully]

I'm about to head to bed. When I'm back in about 11 hours, I want to see new information from Bart, BBM, Ken, Michelaar, and kirsche (if kirsche is even still playing).

[Mackc2]

Just now, Refa said:

I know I said I got your vote before, but after rereading I don't get what you think leaving a vote on Michelaar is going to accomplish.  You've played with him before, do you think he's going to leave a telling response in his next post?  Because I kind of doubt that.

Something about the bolded section bothers me but I can't get a definite read on why that is.

Yeah I didn't think it through at all. I typed that out just to explain to Sully why it would be a bad idea to try to direct a mislynch on Michelaar, however in typing that out I did realise that just pressuring Michelaar isn't going to work, but I would like them to talk more but not really specifically them also anyone who is not talking often because more conversation is better for the town overall, Silence is good for scum. 

Regardless the only people I am not liking currently are Ken for reasons a lot of people have stated and Shinori mostly because I am confident that at least someone on my wagon is scum which there are 4 Refa, Sully, BBM and Shinori. 

Refa seems to be trying to get everyone talking and to me their attitude generally reads as town, Scum wouldn't be giving me chances to defend myself. So he's a townread.
BBM is a similar case to Refa, they seem to be a bit of a conversationalist on the pressing topics and it feels like they are trying to push Towns agenda 
Sully is one I'm less sure on but I don't think scum would have come up with that reason for chasing me when there some decent reasons to sheep. 
Which leaves Shinori who I am not comfortable with because it feels like they have just sheeped my wagon and there reasoning seems the weakest to me.

##Unvote 
##Vote: Shinori 

[BBM]

I was checking the thread every 10 minutes to avoid working and nobody was posting and then I started working and you guys posted like a billion times you guys suck

I'm not really feeling mack is scum anymore. I had a blurb about how the Michelaar vote was still bad but the Shinori vote just now is fine I guess.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth

I mentioned earlier that I wasn't a fan of the Bartozio vote; Prims explained in more detail my issues with it. I also don't really like the explanation for it, because wagons build up quickly at the end of RVS all the time since there isn't as much material to vote for. Just being #2 or #4 on a wagon doesn't inherently make sheeping better or worse. His last post also rubs me wrong with how he brings up Bartozio's mislynch history while still voting him, and then talking randomly about liking Baldrick's posts and then asking him for this opinions

@via- the baldrick stuff wasn't serious

 

 

[Zkirsche]

Hi.

1 hour ago, Mackc2 said:

The reason Michelaar is always lynched when he is town is because he doesn't comment on the game and is overly defensive when people prod at his inactivity so yeah it would be a decent idea to prod him and try to draw suspision onto him

I can't follow this logic at all. The way you've written this makes it seem like you want to make him overdefensive, even though that usually results in his lynch and frequent mislynch? I *think* what you're trying to say is that if he plays the same way Prims/Refa/co will stop the lynch because they are persuasive and know his meta, but that didn't stop them the first few times. I think you're overthinking it.

That said I think Mack is good because I'm a sucker for people who can calmly review their own wagon and react nicely to pressure. Disagree with BBm about the nervous thing, and am kinda confused as to what that even suggests. Would like him to clarify what he meant by that statement (as in, how does it affect alignment) and what gave him that impression in teh first place.

pedit: Really not liking that last vote swap by BBM either, not a lot of emotion in it. If his Mich vote was still bad then why does the Shinori vote completely nullify that? What about the Shinori vote do you like enough to reverse thsi decision? Is Marth simply worse and Mack is still a scumread?

##Vote: BBM

I think Marth's reason for suspecting Bart's sheep vote is good as thinking someone is disinterested is a better read than "he's scummy because he sheeps", but it does feel odd that he is very aware of how many people are on each wagon. If I thought someone was scum I wouldn't be too scared if they had a couple of votes on them, early on at least so long as it wouldn't make them dangerously close to being hammered of course. @Magnificence Incarnate: If the situation was reversed and Mack had the three votes on him, would you sheep him?

Can't really agree with the "Sully being setup as a lynch" either as it's way too early in the day for that. I have some more thoughts on BBM's case but I will let Marth elaborate a bit more first I think. Hoping their interactions will shed some light on their alignment.

My other reads are town reads or null reads. I'm not really sold on the Ken masters cases, while I get where they are comming from, and he definitely is scummy in a "traditional" sense, I just get the feeling he is in that unfrotunate group of players that underestimate the importance of D1, and especially ED1. His kind of stubbornness is very much expected from him imo. I'm also somewhat doubtful scum would just brazenly boast about how they have no reads and how impossible it is to get them this early.

[Percivalé]

I'm going to look at bbm/shinori as potential votes later, shinori's last post is reading me like scum and I've admittedly been glazing over bbm's recent posts because I just took my meds so that probably won't be a thong until tomorrow. if I don't get what I want from my current vote soon I'm not gonna hang around here for long which is one of my fears, if he is scum he's going to get away with it by virtue of flying under the radar but I also can see where I might be scumreading newbtown again so whatever I guess.

prims response is ok but something about the way he's been posting this game still feels weird. like a little more passive than usual. don't know if that's just prims apathy or scum!prims apathy

anyone else is whatever. vote might move to shinori. I'll give proper explanation tomorrow on work break or after work. too sedated right now to post anything more substantial 

[Baldrick]

I had another look at Marth, the initial reasoning for the Bartozio was alright so it's weird he cited wagon numbers to justify it. Also, it might be trivial, but I feel there's a subtle difference between lazy and disinterested, where the latter is a slightly stronger feeling.

[BBM]

The tone of Mack's last few posts defending himself felt town to me, because like you said he didn't overreact to pressure against him, which I felt he did to Prims's question to him (but apparently that was a joke). I was going to switch votes from him to Marth anyways, I was just going to do that with a bit saying that it didn't make sense for him to stick to Michelaar as a prodvote when there were people who'd posted more recently than him who also didn't have a lot of content to pressure vote. I deleted that when he posted and replaced that with "his Shinori vote is fine I guess", which was unrelated to me not feeling he was scum anymore. Maybe that's why the post felt unemotional to you, idk.

Marth's Bartozio vote just feels super easy to me, like "oh vote the last person on the biggest wagon". He added the bit about Bartozio being disinterested later and I feel like that's a stretch. He's ignoring that Bartozio was engaging with Refa trying to convince him why Ken not giving content was worse than Sully not giving content, and Bartozio's other points in that post about Mack for example, and acting as if all Bartozio has done is post a sheep vote.

[Shinori]

Overall after seeing Mack's more recent posts I'm feeling better about him, upon my reread I really disliked the mich vote but the following reasoning made me feel better about that situation.

##Unvote:

 

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

@marth; one of the Ken votes was RVS, there's not a big difference between a wagon of 2 and a wagon of 1.

My vote is on Ken because he's refusing to post reads. His reaction has nothing to do with it, I was starting to see Sully the same way before their Mack vote.

I've found Mack's content agreeable enough, but what you and Sully said has me a little suspicious. I agree with Prims re: your Bart case, so I'm interested in seeing how this interaction develops.  

Anyone I haven't mentioned I'm either comfortable with, or I've forgotten they're playing.

@refa; it seems to me like he's talking about the reaction to Michelaar from a scum perspective? Mackc, you should clarify what you are wanting from Michelaar.

I can understand and agree with the fact that Ken is refusing to post reads is bad but do you truly believe he is scum or is this some hard-headed policy vote you are doing? And if so what other targets would you prefer to lynch? I've seen you post some thoughts on players. Specifically about sully and Ren(? I think?) but are those you're "Would lynch these people today" if phase was ending in like an hour? 

I actually don't like BBM's vote on Marth. It seems really off an outta place to me and I have this gut feeling about it being bad.  I haven't really been getting a scum read from Marth's posts that have been made.  He honestly doesn't seem that memorable to me however. 

Also not the biggest fan of Kirsche's vote,  the most I can get from his post is in general he disagree's with BBM and likes mack.

##Vote: BBM

Going over BBM's posts really makes me go with this vote.  I feel like there isn't much substance in his posts, looking over them there is a lot of what reminds me of myself in the Kemono game but I don't feel that is a good thing here.  It feels to me like he is commenting on things happening but isn't actively pushing targets or suspicions.  He actually stated that Marth was one of his suspicions back on page 3 but did nothing about it, not even pose any questions or pressure towards him until just recently.  This seems off to me and I feel that BBM would do better than that.

 

Preview edit: BBM's post about marth has better reasoning than his first initial vote in my opinion but I'm still not liking it overall, partially gut based and partially cause I don't read marth as scum at the moment.

[BBM]

I said on the first post of page 3 that I wanted Marth to explain more about why he didn't like Bartozio's wording, and that I thought his Bartozio vote was lazy, and then I had a string of posts not mentioning Marth much because he hadn't posted in that time. Then he made a couple posts talking about it more and I changed my vote to him in my next post. 

Also, it seems to me that a significant portion of why you don't like my case against Marth is just that you disagree with me, except you call out kirsche for not having much to his vote beyond just disagreeing with me (side note: I don't think that's true). Another part of your case is that I'm not pushing my suspicions, except most of my posts other than a few talking about Sully/Ken where I was waiting for people to respond to me are directly questioning people or making cases against them. And the other part of your case is that I'm playing similar to how you played in a game where you were town???

[Prims]

What bugs me about BBM is that he acts like he's always suspected Marth (indeed, he said Marth was one of his suspicions earlier) but he's never talked about it or pressured Marth up until the vote switch, which makes me wonder if he was leaving Marth as a backburner option for when he couldn't keep the Mack vote anymore. BBM, what were your initial reasons for suspecting Marth?

kirsche's vote seems to be because of a post that cut him which makes me wonder who he would have voted otherwise (if anybody) because his post doesn't telegraph any other suspicions. kirsche, is BBM your only scum read? What is your actual read on Marth? Your paragraph about him is confusingly lacking in a consistent conclusion (you take issues of him but this is after saying you like his Bart vote but it's not clear if you suspect Bart either).

I think Mack has handled pressure reasonably enough but "there are good cases on me" bugs me from a tone perspective because scum is IMO more likely to think that as they know when cases are "right". Whereas a townie knows that cases on them are wrong by default. Not something I'd lynch him over but weird enough for me to keep my eye on him even though his posts have gotten better.

[Shinori]

Prims basically posts what I was trying to say but without me being tilted from my failed series.

Fuq league of legends.

[BBM]

10 hours ago, BBM said:

Yeah I'll echo Refa in asking what exactly about Bartozio's wording Marth doesnt like, since the wording seems fairly normal to me. It seems more like he's just voting due to Bart's position on the wagon more than anything, which I feel is lazy.

I initially voted for Prims because he talked about Sully more than he talked about Marth despite voting for Marth, which I thought was a bit weird, and I had an RVS vote down at the time. But it wasnt a big thing.

Mack hasnt been scum before I think. His post reads like someone getting a bit nervous under pressure to me, even if it isnt serious pressure.

what are you guys talking about I clearly talked about Marth long before I voted him and before I said he was one of my suspicions in my post talking about Ken. Did you guys both just miss this post?

[Prims]

Oh I missed the post BBM just mentioned. I actually don't like the way the case is worded there anyway because "It seems more like he's just voting due to Bart's position on the wagon more than anything" <- Marth doesn't say this so you're putting words into his mouth... except this implies Marth is actually lazy town because there's no reason for scum!Marth to vote Bartozio over that then give a different reason for it. Like, the way scum construct cases makes it extremely unlikely for them to have that thought process.

[Prims]

Unvote
##Vote: BBM
The Marth case looks like it's in bad faith with this in mind. Pretty sure when I first read that post I thought BBM was calling Marth lazy town which is why I forgot about it.

[BBM]

That post about Marth does talk directly about the wording he uses in his initial Bartozio vote, about how he didn't like Bartozio's wording in his Ken vote. The second sentence, about how it seemed like he was voting due to Bartozio's wagon position was an extrapolation on my part, yes, but given that Marth says the same thing later on when he's expanding on his vote, I interpreted his case correctly even if he hadn't worded it that way at the beginning.  So I don't think I'm putting words in his mouth in any way.

Also, lazy is a negative adjective so if I was using it to describe lazy town I would have said that specifically. I also don't agree that scum would construct cases differently. Scum make lazy cases all the time, especially ones that are more formulaic like wagon position stuff because it's an easy way to generate content.

[BBM]

also, what do you mean by bad faith?

[Prims]

When I say scum won't construct cases like that I mean I don't think scum!Marth is going to become suspicious of Bartozio because of Reason A then justify his vote with Reason B. He might vote over Reason B then later use Reason A to retroactively justify his case, but you attacking him on the basis he was actually voting for Reason A and not Reason B in the first place seemed bizarre to me.

That said I looked at Marth's post again and I can see how you would get that he was voting based on wagon position (Reason A) even though at the time I had interpreted it as just voting Bartozio for sheeping onto a wagon in general (Reason B). Still a little concerned about your slot but this doesn't seem to be the slam dunk I thought it was, so.

##Unvote
##Vote: Ken Masters

[Prims]

4 minutes ago, BBM said:

also, what do you mean by bad faith?

Specifically I thought scum!BBM sees a post by town!Marth and thinks "oh, he says this but he's actually just gut reading Bartozio as scum because Bartozio was the third serious vote on the wagon" or something along those lines, then posts a read while still having that PoV of town!Marth.