Persona 5 Mafia - Game Over

[Mackc2]

Paperblade and I have come to a decision to change our vote to Sully, We have a few hang ups about Baldricks play, namely we think they have made the scummiest posts but have made a few choices that just don't make sense if he is scum. Paperblade finds Sully's competence strange and believes they either lied about being new or are being coached. 

##Unvote
##Vote: Sully McGully

[Refa]

27 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

Paperblade and I have come to a decision to change our vote to Sully, We have a few hang ups about Baldricks play, namely we think they have made the scummiest posts but have made a few choices that just don't make sense if he is scum. Paperblade finds Sully's competence strange and believes they either lied about being new or are being coached. 

Explain this for the peanut gallery.

[Michelaar]

I actually want to get this out of the way now. I want to say I disagree with Mack's post above. I do believe Sully is new. What I do kind of agree with is that his play doesn't sit well with me. However, after watching the Baldrick case play out; it seems more plausible. It wasn't that bad when it just started, but the only one who sold me on the case was Baldrick himself. He gives a lot of comments to accusations at him that i'm wondering 'How did this even happen?' For example, he doesn't even read properly, as in the previous page, he told sully: ' So you think the scum team is Michelaar/Shinori/Me'  which doesn't make sense, since just before that, sully said that he absolutely DOES NOT think Shinori and I can be on a scum team. I wonder why honestly.

## Unvote

## Vote: Baldrick

[Baldrick]

9 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

 as in the previous page, he told sully: ' So you think the scum team is Michelaar/Shinori/Me' 

I did not say that.

Quote me where I said that.

I was even attacking the idea that me and Shinori are on the same team.

Sully's associative reads are bad.

[Michelaar]

8 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I did not say that.

Quote me where I said that.

I was even attacking the idea that me and Shinori are on the same team.

Sully's associative reads are bad.

Never mind, I misread that. My bad. Scrap that point then. I agree Sully's reads are bad, but don't act like yours are better.

[Baldrick]

Just now, Michelaar said:

Never mind, I misread that. My bad.

 

21 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

he doesn't even read properly

 

[Baldrick]

Are you talking about yourself in the second quote.

[Baldrick]

Come on. I've disproved your only example. Give me more if I'm such a bad reader.

[Baldrick]

On 12/3/2017 at 6:09 AM, Michelaar said:

I guess I don't really understand the logic of the Baldrick case at all, so i'm going to back out of that one completely.

Another time that you didn't read properly. That makes 2 times you've fucked up, 0 times I've fucked up.

[Baldrick]

I'm going to step back a bit before I do something I regret. If I don't turn up within 3 hours of now, I'll be asleep after that. I'll wake up about 3 hours before phase end.

[Refa]

lmao

@Michelaar I don't get why you think Baldrick is scum.  

[Michelaar]

0 times you have fucked up? If that was true you wouldn't have such a pile of votes on you, would you=?

[Michelaar]

Honestly i'm just sheeping at this point, with more feelings in my stomach than evidence. I don't have any evidence that baldrick or Sully is scum, I don't. I just have a gut feeling. I still think Shinori's reason to vote me is dumb and seems like a salty move though. I guess that counts for more and is actual ' evidence'  

 

## Unvote

## Vote: Shinori

 

Honestly though, I am done.

[Refa]

@Mackc2 Also who is the scum team according to you and Paperblade?  If you don't answer, I will be forced to assume that you are both scum. =)

[BBM]

@Baldrick- both lynching Mack and claiming a PR for a CC are last-resort ploys. But the former if executed correctly allows you to survive (at least for a day) and lynches a high-reward target, whereas the best case for the latter is outing a PR to kill but still dying today.

@Mack/Paperblade- I don't think anybody coaches their newbscum buddies to the degree you're suggesting. The most I've ever done is give my buddy the idea of who to coach and a general line of argument. Also, consider how active he's been; his coach would have to have at least similar levels of activity so it would basically have to be either me or Refa and I'm fairly sure that regardless of his alignment Refa isn't coaching him. 

I also don't really think Sully's play this phase is too competent to be newbtown. His cases are either trying to find semantic holes in someone's play (ED2 Baldrick Case), voting for things that are "bad" play without considering context (late D1 Prims case), super convoluted logic like his Baldrick stuff from later today, or misreps like the vote on me. Those first two things especially are basically hallmarks of newb play because it's more difficult for them to spot actual scum intent without experience. The latter two things are more concerning with regards to making me think he might be scum but certainly not too competent to be newbtown. It just seems more competent because he posts more often and with more confidence and more words than most new players but that might just be his personality?

The other thing that concerns me with Sully though is the number of derpy mafia mechanic questions he's had. One or two are fine but there have been so many and some of them are so out there, like asking whether scum have all our roles, that I'm concerned that might be faked.

I'd rather still lynch Baldrick and even Shinori though SHRUG

Michelaar makes my head hurt

gonna sleep now; I'll check the thread in the morning and will try to be here for the last hour before phase end but like I said earlier I can't be on the thread the whole time

[Refa]

I have legitimate issues with Sully (several of his cases feel like he's misrepping whoever he's voting, he doesn't adequately respond to peoples' issues with him and/or his cases), but I'm not going to vote him purely because he might be getting coached or he's faking townslips WRT derpy mafia questions he has.  Via's case on him is fine (part of the reason I'm bothered with the slot), I don't remember why Baldrick is bothered by the slot (honestly, I'm remembering Baldrick more for his defense than his reads), and I already addressed Mackc2's case.

[Bartozio]

8 hours ago, kirsche said:

Prims has already explained why his Ken park was bad. I'm not convinced "trying to hinder discussion" on page 2 is worth parking on him for the whole phase, especially when I'm not really sure if Ken was trying to hinder disucssion rather than just refsing to participate in it.

As I said before, it later bothered me he just didn't post at all, even though he only said early D1 was pointless. It felt to much like he was just trying to lay low until the pressure was off of him.

8 hours ago, kirsche said:

His Sully case is good, I would like him to explain what scum!Sully is trying to achieve by just hopping about and voting people who are under pressure though.

Trying to generate easy content. His cases are generally sheeps or missinterpretations, but I can see him trying a quantity over quality approuch.

8 hours ago, kirsche said:

Can you give one/some examples of Via cases that you liked and why?

I thought his cases on me and prims were good, be they both wrong.

8 hours ago, kirsche said:

I don't really understand his Baldrick case. He criticises Bald for removing his vote to pressure other people, but also criticises Bald for not using his vote to pressure other people? What is the scum intent in Baldrick switching off of Gaius late in the phase to pressure other people, but not beforehand (ignoring that we now know that Baldrick simply wanted to give Gaius a chance)? His follow up is ok: talking about how Baldrick wasn't voting his main scumread which still rings true now, but his initial case isn't great and really focuses in on something small.

That follow up was trying to clearify my initial case though...

My problem was there was inconsistency in what Baldrick was doing. He was questioning other people ED1 but kept his vote on his main scum read, yet he did use his vote to question people near the end of D1, when his main scum read should have remained unchanged. It seemed like he switched between two views (vote should be on main scum read vs vote should be used to question people), which bothered me so I wanted him to explain, especially since I think people were starting to talk about vote parking around then.

8 hours ago, kirsche said:

Bart's scumteams are ok, would liek to know why Sully's interactions with Baldy and Shinori make them less likely to be buddies.

Sully sheeped a Shinori case early on when there were easy other options, and had a Balderick case prepared at the start of D2. I think he'd be a bit too willing to trow his buddies under the bus in that setup. It's not impossible, but it doesn't seem as likely.

8 hours ago, kirsche said:

Since you guys are here now and prob just didn't see this in the wall.

I can see scum making these kind of posts to make it seem like they are actually thinking about stuff. I think they'll mostly become self conscience when too much of their content is like that, which could also be a reason for why Baldrick wanted to start pushing other cases.

Spoiler

On 30-11-2017 at 9:21 AM, Quote said:

iif sully flip scum I wiil actuallt eat my shoelavces

Just so you know, I'll remember this.

 

[Mackc2]

5 hours ago, Refa said:

@Mackc2 Also who is the scum team according to you and Paperblade?  If you don't answer, I will be forced to assume that you are both scum. =)

Got a friend over at the moment, when does this day end? 

[SB.]

Votals 2.8

Baldrick (5): BBM, Marth, Bartozio, Refa, SullyMcGully, 
SullyMcGully (3): , Baldrick, Via, Mackc2
Michelaar (1): Shinori
Shinori (1): Michelaar

Not Voting (1): kirsche

With 11 alive, it takes 4 to lynch and 8 to hammer. Phase ends in 9 hours and 25 minutes.

[Mackc2]

6 hours ago, Refa said:

Explain this for the peanut gallery.

Mainly I refer to their role claim neither of us can really wrap our head around why they would make a claim like that as scum and out only reason for voting Sully is the weird change in their competence but I am willing to consolidate balderick and paper is asleep 

[Mackc2]

I have to go to bed, more than likely I won't be around the rest of phrase, I just assume we will end up consolidating on balderick so 

##unvote 

##vote balderick 

 

[SullyMcGully]

OK, so time to address the press! I've noticed three particular cases against me, and I'm going to deal with them here.

Sully is scum because...

1: He's too jumpy with his votes: As a policy, I always either vote for whoever seems scummiest to me at the moment, or whoever I have questions about that I want answered. On D1, I voted Bart, Kirsche, Mack, Shinori, BBM, and Prims. I voted Bart in RVS, Kirsche for being late,  Mack because he voted Michelaar and I was being pressured to have a read, Shinori because I wanted to pressure him into answering questions, BBM because I (mis)read his early interactions as being too neutral, and Prims because I didn't like how he wanted to hammer Ken/LG so early on. D2, I started with a Baldrick case based on contradictory D1 policies, switched to Mack for a bit after he said some weird stuff about Mich again, and then switched back to Baldrick after Mack's claim. I have consistently stuck with my policy, I would stick with my policy whether it meant I had to park on one vote or had to change votes a dozen times.

2: He has poor reasoning: I'll admit that a lot of my cases have poor reasoning, or are written in such a way that the reasoning is unclear. I understand how this makes me looks bad and I'm sorry if you've been the victim of one of my less-logical reads, but I really don't have the time to read over things more than once or twice. I actually do most of the actual thinking for this game not while I'm sitting at the computer looking at the meta, but while I'm out and about doing jobs on the farm. Therefore, my speculation-to-evidence ratio is way off. I know that that's also frequently the case with scum, but I'm afraid that's just my personal style and there isn't much I can do to change it.

3: He's way too confident: I'm enjoying this game. Even if I get mislynched or nightkilled, I still must say that I'm having a good time and feel comfortable here. I don't want to play if I can't act like my normal self, I'd rather seem scummy acting how I usually do than get a pass for using a fake personality. That said, I have a lot of questions, which I see no reason not to ask. Truth is, I am getting coached - right here in this thread! Show me what you call a "burst of confidence" and I'll show you the post made, right here out in the open, that inspired that. Tell me where you think I sounded like I was learning from an outside source and I'll tell you about the player whose interactions brought that knowledge to my mind. If I had a scumbuddy or PaperBlade in my ear, I probably wouldn't be making all of the mistakes I seem to be.

@via: So you think my nightkill write-up post is scummy? I can't say much about that really that hasn't already been said, I've explained why I did what I did and if it seems scummy, that's totally up to you. Should I have not given my opinion on the Prims kill? I thought it was weird that they didn't go for obvious targets like the newb scumteam in Kemono Friends, and formed an opinion on why they didn't. I posted that opinion, should I have kept it to myself.

[Zkirsche]

I'm not gonna be around for long unfortunately so I'll save my Shinori/Sully ISOs for N2. Speaking of, Shinori has disappeared again.

I think a VT claim can come from scum on D2 after a VT was mislynched D1 as town got a public reminder that VTs exist and there's a chance doubts can form in the minds of people who have just mislynched a VT. I agree that there are some posts which I find are weird from scum but I may just be becoming paranoid about the lynch. Reminder that if Baldrick flips scum we should look into the Mackc wagon earlier in the day, and maybe this Sully wagon too.

Everyone should reread Shinori and Sully if they can for tomorrow as they are on the most sucmteams and I personally think Shinori is one of the most suspicious folks here, not as sure about Sully but I'm getting paranoid I accepted him as a townread too quickly.

@Mich: Why is being salty a scum move? I think town can get mad at people suspecting them.

[Percivalé]

sully I'll respond to you when I get off work

[Percivalé]

@bart I'm more confident sully is going to flip scum now so I'll be ready to eat my shoelaces later