Persona 5 Mafia - Game Over

[Refa]

##Unvote

##Vote: Lord Gaius

Still want that response, Prims.

[Prims]

8 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

@Prims: Could you answer my questions please? I may not see them but they may do some good for the others. Particularly, what's your current position on your old reads (Mack and Shinori)?

Neither of them are getting lynched today from what I can tell, but my Mack read hasn't changed much from the posts he's made since I suspected him. Last night I was concerned Shinori could be scum trying to seem active by replying to all the suspicions on him but not actively engaging with the main game much, but after his PBPA of Bartozio I think he's just following his own whims and his play looks reminiscent of Kemono Friends. Overall I'd say he's just OK, maybe a slight town lean? I haven't really read him in-depth because I want to Get This Post Out Here(TM). My current Shinori read is completely independent of my original read on him, though, which was a gut read based on early posts.

I actually am glad for Shinori's post on Bartozio, though, because it made me realize Bartozio's reason for keeping the Ken vote is... "[he] somewhat discourages people from posting reads, so I'm going to keep my vote there for now.". Wow! And you guys thought I was voteparking! He outright says he's leaving his vote there "for now" like it's just a placeholder because he doesn't know who the scums are. Then when he switches back it's just because he has no better read... Seriously, this is what apathetic scum parking on a wagon looks like, not me Pushing Ken For Doing Scummy Things. tbh everyone on the Prims wagon should explain how the hell my Ken vote is worse than this. @kirsche @Lord Gaius @SullyMcGully @Refa

8 minutes ago, Refa said:

@Prims Please respond to this.

29 minutes ago, Prims said:

He was reactionary and obtuse and not scumhunting the way a townie should, this lasted into the serious portion of the game as well even if he dropped out early. All this is scummy play.

25 minutes ago, Prims said:

Yeah, Ken's behavior happened early into the game but I also think (controversial opinion) most of the posts since then have been about equally useful to the posts then. The only difference is that they have more words in them. This is why the day should have ended in a Ken lynch 48 hours in but what can you do.

Same posts can be repurposed as a reply to Gaius. Again, his play persisted into the serious portion of the game, not just RVS. If he had kept posting after that and his posts were still scummy I would have still voted there.

Anyway, if I die then lynch kirsche tomorrow for pushing bad gameplay theory as a reason not to lynch a scummy player and starting a mislynch wagon over meta while ignoring the actual context of my actions. Bart is a great lynch too and Gaius is also still a reasonable option but I'm actually wavering on it now because two of my last minute scumreads (kirsche and Bartozio) have interactions that point to him being a townie used as a scapegoat for their nefarious scum plans. If you made me guess the scumteam offhand I would say kirsche/Bart/Mack, with Gaius as an alternative to Bart. Obviously kirsche isn't getting lynched today, though, so not me over me applies.

[BBM]

eh I don't think Gaius or Prims are good lynches. Gaius's content seems decent to me although I disagree with the Shinori stuff.

rereading Sully's defence again and it's just like... fine, he mentally exaggerated some stuff. then he says that he missed my Marth stuff, but... how? My point in linking all those posts is to show how many of those posts there were. Plus I was voting Marth at one point so for him to say that he didn't see it as a very strong thing on my part doesn't make any sense.

The reasoning for the Prims case isn't good but I think that's a fair case for a newer player to make. 

this is still a good lynch

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Prims said:

I actually am glad for Shinori's post on Bartozio, though, because it made me realize Bartozio's reason for keeping the Ken vote is... "[he] somewhat discourages people from posting reads, so I'm going to keep my vote there for now.". Wow! And you guys thought I was voteparking! He outright says he's leaving his vote there "for now" like it's just a placeholder because he doesn't know who the scums are. Then when he switches back it's just because he has no better read... Seriously, this is what apathetic scum parking on a wagon looks like, not me Pushing Ken For Doing Scummy Things. tbh everyone on the Prims wagon should explain how the hell my Ken vote is worse than this. @kirsche @Lord Gaius @SullyMcGully @Refa

Anyway, if I die then lynch kirsche tomorrow for pushing bad gameplay theory as a reason not to lynch a scummy player and starting a mislynch wagon over meta while ignoring the actual context of my actions. Bart is a great lynch too and Gaius is also still a reasonable option but I'm actually wavering on it now because two of my last minute scumreads (kirsche and Bartozio) have interactions that point to him being a townie used as a scapegoat for their nefarious scum plans. If you made me guess the scumteam offhand I would say kirsche/Bart/Mack, with Gaius as an alternative to Bart. Obviously kirsche isn't getting lynched today, though, so not me over me applies.

I'm handwaving it because I don't see Scum!Bartozio criticizing my case on Sully when Ken M. was doing the same things.  On its own, I can see his vote being apathetic scum, but I don't think how he's handled it WRT his responses to people has been.

What did you think of Mackc2's responses because those were why I'm not bothered by him currently.

[Prims]

I am cooling down on Gaius a little (despite being salty at him for the bad meta on me) but I don't really want to lynch Sully either.

Surely nobody would feel bad about lynching Bartozio if he flipped scum? Might be too close to a turbo for my tastes, though. Alternately we can lynch him tomorrow, like the time I felt bad about lynching scum!RD immediately so I waited until Day 2 to push him.

I think ultimately it's reasonable to lynch the VT claim in case I'm being dumb and second-guessing myself based on other scum reads that I could also be wrong about.

[Refa]

6 minutes ago, BBM said:

eh I don't think Gaius or Prims are good lynches. Gaius's content seems decent to me although I disagree with the Shinori stuff.

rereading Sully's defence again and it's just like... fine, he mentally exaggerated some stuff. then he says that he missed my Marth stuff, but... how? My point in linking all those posts is to show how many of those posts there were. Plus I was voting Marth at one point so for him to say that he didn't see it as a very strong thing on my part doesn't make any sense.

The reasoning for the Prims case isn't good but I think that's a fair case for a newer player to make. 

this is still a good lynch

I'm not really satisfied with the lynch myself but Gaius is more likely to flip scum than Prims so...here we are.

There was some post that Sully made (I think it was the post where he voted Prims) that I didn't think he'd make as scum.

[Refa]

Right, it was his explanation for his shift from passive to more active that made me not want to lynch him.

[Baldrick]

##unvote

##vote: Gaius

Ken's play is still the same as when I voted him, but I also don't like the way he's trying to defend the residual cases on Ken. I feel a townie would try to put out enough content that people either have to justify a lynch on the new player rather than the old, or find someone else to vote.

35 minutes ago, Lord Gaius said:

Can you respond to what I say on the last post of page 13 then, second quote? 

In the quote you're referring to, you say Ken vanished (wrong) and ignoring Prims' point that if Ken wants to scumhunt in his own way, he should push people for content rather than waiting for it passively.

 

I have an opinion on the prims wagon but it might be better to save for postgame.

[Prims]

3 minutes ago, Refa said:

I'm handwaving it because I don't see Scum!Bartozio criticizing my case on Sully when Ken M. was doing the same things.  On its own, I can see his vote being apathetic scum, but I don't think how he's handled it WRT his responses to people has been.

What did you think of Mackc2's responses because those were why I'm not bothered by him currently.

I think you're clearing Bart too easily, honestly. Why can't scum!Bartozio do that? It's an extremely easy post to make regardless of alignment so scum!Bartozio can make it because he needs to look like he's Doing Things, and it doesn't really matter for him in the end because he's not actually committing to a read on you or Sully when he does so.

I don't see how Mack's responses are alignment indicative. tbh I'm not a fan how he says he still thinks Shinori is scummy and re-enforces his Shinori case but makes an empty unvote in the same post he says he doesn't like unvoting without a new person to move his vote to. His vote ends up on the Ken wagon in the end even though he said he wanted to read Shinori more so I can't tell where his Shinori read actually went.

[BBM]

basically it feels like Sully just kind of retracted some of the stuff based on getting a lot of flak for it but is still trying to justify reasoning with stuff like "I didn't see it as very strong because you were also talking about other people" which I don't like

I think Bart isn't scum because his approach to Ken seems similar to Prims where he was re-justifying the Ken vote every time he came back to the thread, it's just that 1) he came back less often than Prims and 2) his reasons for re-justifying the read and his other posts in his bursts of activity weren't as good as Prims

I don't think either of those are really indicative of him being scum because he has a naturally lurky playstyle, which I think has contributed to his mislynch in both NOC games at least, and he's still new so I don't expect as high a level of analysis.

I think Baldrick is the worst votepark offender because I think his re-justification is the weakest (Ken just isn't posting reads) vs Bartozio's (Ken is trying to shut down discussion) or Prims's (Ken is super reactionary to pressure) and while he was waiting for Ken to return it feels like the comments he was making about Marth and Shinori were just comments vs trying to actually determine if they were scum? But, I think his later stuff after Gaius subbed in about Shinori is better than the posts Bart made since then.

[Bartozio]

Okay, I'm back. I'll start reading up on what has happened now. Looking at votes on this page, I think we have decided on a LG lynch?

[Prims]

Before I forget: My roleclaim is that Refa and Michelaar are scumbuddies.

[BBM]

I'm also not really down to lynch Gaius because of his VT claim. In general I think scum are less likely to fake VT early on in the game, but I think in this situation especially, where the odds were stacked against him, he would have tried to claim some kind of role to stop the lynch against him or get a counterclaim at least so that scum would know a role.

Bartozio, mainly just looking for reads from you. In future if you don't have a lot of time to post it's always better to use it on scumhunting than defending yourself, especially considering there wasn't a lot of pressure on you.

 

[BBM]

actually while I was typing up the Gaius VT stuff, I realized that I think based on that he's more likely to be town than Bartozio. So although I think he too is more likely to be town than not, if people are really unwilling to lynch Sully, I would rather turbo Bartozio (or Baldrick but Bartozio is more likely to get support I guess) than lynch Gaius.

[Percivalé]

I'm not going to be here for phase end. I can vote on LG to consolidate. 

[Refa]

4 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I have an opinion on the prims wagon but it might be better to save for postgame.

Why?

4 minutes ago, Prims said:

I think you're clearing Bart too easily, honestly. Why can't scum!Bartozio do that? It's an extremely easy post to make regardless of alignment so scum!Bartozio can make it because he needs to look like he's Doing Things, and it doesn't really matter for him in the end because he's not actually committing to a read on you or Sully when he does so.

I don't see how Mack's responses are alignment indicative. tbh I'm not a fan how he says he still thinks Shinori is scummy and re-enforces his Shinori case but makes an empty unvote in the same post he says he doesn't like unvoting without a new person to move his vote to. His vote ends up on the Ken wagon in the end even though he said he wanted to read Shinori more so I can't tell where his Shinori read actually went.

It's not that Scum!Bartozio can't do it, but it moreso shows that he put some thought into his vote.  Fair enough on him not committing to a read on me/Sully though, I didn't pick up on that. 

 I'm not a fan of that either but I don't think it's alignment indicative to be so openly contradictory.  I'd be more bothered by his lack of followups WRT Shinori if Shinori made a post in between his unvote and his Ken M. vote.  So I guess in the end I agree with you that it's not alignment indicative but I dunno.  I really need to reevaluate my read on him/Bart but I have neither the time nor energy to do it right now.

[Prims]

I don't think the VT tell works because once scum know it they can abuse it. In a situation where people were clamoring for a lynch on a slot that just hadn't posted, subbing in and throwing semi-decent content out there is enough to sway a few votes off of you. scum!Gaius doesn't need to fakeclaim to survive.

[Percivalé]

mich turbolynch imo 

[BBM]

I don't think that's really true if the person who subs in for the scummy slot is subbing in with like 15 hours left because a lot of the time people don't have another person to switch to so they're like "well the guy who subbed in is posting better but the previous guy still stunk so this is safer than a turbo"; basically what's happening with Gaius right now. 

A good example I think is SB in I want to say Fakeclaim? He subbed in for a super scummy slot and tried to at first just make posts and it didn't work, and then tried to make big roleclaim plays to avoid the lynch. That also didn't work, but that kind of go-for-broke thinking is what is more likely IMO

[Refa]

10 minutes ago, Prims said:

Before I forget: My roleclaim is that Refa and Michelaar are scumbuddies.

Triggered

[BBM]

mich is the real easy lynchbait though

also I think early on he had a post with several reads in it and it was like the best post he's ever made so I'm more inclined to think he's town even if he hasn't done a lot since then?

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, Quote said:

mich turbolynch imo 

mich is town tho

seriously he was scum like a few games ago and he was caught because he posted exactly the same as a previous scum game (e.g. he didn't do shit until he was repeatedly prodded)

it's possible that he just stepped his scum game up but idt he could make such radical changes to his playstyle in the span of a few games

[Prims]

I guess you're right in that scum is more likely to test the waters before claiming after subbing in. I still think the slot could be scum though and am just opposed to last minute wagons on principle and I'm heavily skeptical re-reading Sully would make me want to lynch him more than the slot I've been scumreading all game.

[Prims]

Mich could be scum. He stepped his game up mid-D1 when he got lynched as Godfather too. It just didn't stop his lynch because he had scummy actions on record already. This game is a blank slate. Despite his lurking I don't think he's much worse than my main scumreads, though.

[SB.]

Votals 1.11

Lord Gaius (6): Prims, Bartozio, Mackc2, Michelaar, Refa, Baldrick
Prims (3): kirsche, Lord Gaius, SullyMcGully
SullyMcGully (2): Marth, BBM
BBM (1): Via
Bartozio (1): Shinori

With 13 alive, it takes 5 to lynch and 9 to hammer. You have 41 minutes left in the day.