Persona 5 Mafia - Game Over

[Refa]

Baldrick's votepark bothers me too but I'm not as bothered by Bartozio's because stuff like him questioning me WRT Sully/Ken M. read as him actively thinking about his vote instead of just leaving it there.

[SB.]

Votals 1.10

Lord Gaius (4): Prims, Bartozio, Mackc2, Michelaar
Prims (4): kirsche, Lord Gaius, SullyMcGully, Refa
SullyMcGully (2): Marth, BBM
BBM (1): Via
Shinori (1): Baldrick
Bartozio (1): Shinori

With 13 alive, it takes 5 to lynch and 9 to hammer. You have 3 hours and 27 minutes left in the day.

Edited November 30, 2017 by SB.

[Prims]

I haven't read anything but the votals but no I'm not getting turbo lynched in the last 6 hours of Day 1 you nitwits, that's straight up atrocious play. Don't expect a claim from me either.

[BBM]

1 minute ago, Prims said:

I haven't read anything but the votals but no I'm not getting turbo lynched in the last 6 hours of Day 1 you nitwits, that's straight up atrocious play. Don't expect a claim from me either.

ok come on lol you've led turbolynches many times. I'm not saying you should claim right away but you don't get to call turbolynches inherently atrocious play without looking at any of the individual votes

[Refa]

My main issues with your slot:

-Your Ken M. read is based on him not delivering content even though his last post was RVS.  That doesn't make it a bad read but it's weird to me that it's your strongest scum read.

-Your other reads are fairly weak, which again isn't scummy in and of itself, but it bothers me that you've dropped like all of them only to settle on Ken M.  A specific example is that when I asked you why you felt better about BBM/Marth, you said their interactions with each other which is just ???.  Doesn't feel like a lot of thought went there.

-Your play seems fairly static in that you're just posting reads/cases but your interactions are just limited to you talking to people you've cased before dropping the cases.  Maybe I'm forgetting something but I'm not really seeing your reads getting updated, just a "this guy is scummy" or "this guy is not scummy" if that makes any sense.

[Prims]

2 hours ago, kirsche said:

Comp spent all day updating and I'm about to go to my shift so welp, rereading over N1 I guess.

Everything about Sully reads as ok but slightly wrong which is expected from a newb. For example, I can understand how Sully can interpret BBM's posts as all corrections/observations by his frequent posting style. The posting style and content feels earnest and again I can't see first time scum making a post like his confirmation one. bad lynch.

Ken masters is also a bad lynch, dunno why everyone keeps talking about associative reads and getting info from his flip, he hasn't talked to anyone so what's the point.

You barely mentioned Shinori in your Sully vote post with the only statement I can find in it relating to his alignment to be you find him "relatively null" which is slightly concerning since it seems like he's currently one of your biggest scumreads yet you "can't put a finger" on why exactly. Please read the stuff in quotation marks with the most snark possible as that is my intent.

Iunno if you're a good lynch though because you defended yourself mostly well and I don't know if scum!you would be this calm and detailed in your response. I kinda wish you got pressured in that smogon game more so I would know. At this point I'll tentatively ##Unvote since you bring more to the table than the other options and i think your alignment will become clearer in time. Still think you're scum though.

@Refa: It's moreso the fact that you seem to be approaching every Mack post as something that is likely coming from scum and justifying it afterwards iunno. Keep up the pressure though it isn't bad that it's happening I guess. What do you think of Prims?

Shinori's Bart case is kinda meh, he's not really making clear the scum intent imo in Bart's posts with the main staying point is Bart's sudden suspicions on some people. Like is Bart's Sully case scummy and why? Is Sully being set up as a mislynch and how and by whom? Just Bart? I'm open to the idea but I'm not as paranoid about the people on the wagon bar BBM. Wouldn't be mad about a lynch on this slot as aside from this Bart case he hasn't done much. Still want to know his actual thoughts on me.

I'm going to ##Vote: Prims though because he's doubled down on his Ken Masters park to the point of ridiculousness. My impression from Rein's game is that Prims is the kind of player that likes to bounce off of others to get opinions of people and is very eager to do so about basically everyone and he had a lack of confidence in a couple of his reads IIRC. Now I know that was OC but the first day was played like NOC basically with added rolespec on Prims' part yet that didn't seem to affect my conversations too much with him imo. Here he is a lot more distant and a lot more resigned to this vote. As scum he wouldn't really feel the need to swap because noone else has bothered to care and imo that is what is happening. He is just letting the lynch play out for the most part and unlike some people who're pretty forgettable (Bart, Baldrick) (partly also my faulty tbh got to be picky about who to read) I would expect much much better from him. He's a good lynch because he has associations and is much less likely to flip town (Sully, Ken) and give more associative reads than some (Ken).

HEY I'M "DOUBLING DOWN" BECAUSE I THINK THAT SLOT IS SCUM. STOP DEFENDING A SCUMMY SLOT FOR BAD / NON-EXISTENT REASONS. ARE YOU SCUM TOO?

This is entire post is bad bad bad because 1) kirsche has not actually explained why the cases on Ken Masters don't hold water (he gave a defense earlier on but that was before I restated my case and now he just votes me and ignores it), instead he says it's a bad lynch because he hasn't talked to anybody but guess what there's a replacement talking RIGHT NOW and also you don't lynch for "associative reads" you lynch people for being scummy. 2) it's a meta case based on one game, an OC game (this game is not OC) and not the several NOC games I've played in as town, the two most recent of which where I actually put in less effort than I am in this game 3) it completely ignores that I could be voting Ken all day as town because... you know, I think he's scummy and I want to get scum lynched. You might notice the point in the day where I thought the player most likely to be lynched was BBM and switched my vote there until I changed my mind.

 

[Prims]

3 minutes ago, Refa said:

-Your Ken M. read is based on him not delivering content even though his last post was RVS.  That doesn't make it a bad read but it's weird to me that it's your strongest scum read.

-Your other reads are fairly weak, which again isn't scummy in and of itself, but it bothers me that you've dropped like all of them only to settle on Ken M.  A specific example is that when I asked you why you felt better about BBM/Marth, you said their interactions with each other which is just ???.  Doesn't feel like a lot of thought went there.

-Your play seems fairly static in that you're just posting reads/cases but your interactions are just limited to you talking to people you've cased before dropping the cases.  Maybe I'm forgetting something but I'm not really seeing your reads getting updated, just a "this guy is scummy" or "this guy is not scummy" if that makes any sense.

Instead of replying to these I could just point out that you cop out of 2/3 of your own reasons for thinking I'm scum in your own post anyway. "this isn't bad but it's weird" "this isn't scummy in and of itself" lol? Not changing my opinions all the time isn't scummy either but it's straight up untrue I haven't had a thought process this game since my reads on BBM were updated (see my back and forth with him) and so was my read on Mack when I re-read him and found him scummy. Obviously I'm not going to be pushing people who aren't Ken when I think Ken is the scummiest target. And yeah I didn't reply about BBM/Marth because I was lazy and that was a gut read anyway.

6 minutes ago, BBM said:

ok come on lol you've led turbolynches many times. I'm not saying you should claim right away but you don't get to call turbolynches inherently atrocious play without looking at any of the individual votes

To be fair, (almost) all of those times were bad plays on my part.

[Refa]

Just now, Prims said:

Instead of replying to these I could just point out that you cop out of 2/3 of your own reasons for thinking I'm scum in your own post anyway. "this isn't bad but it's weird" "this isn't scummy in and of itself" lol? Not changing my opinions all the time isn't scummy either but it's straight up untrue I haven't had a thought process this game since my reads on BBM were updated (see my back and forth with him) and so was my read on Mack when I re-read him and found him scummy. Obviously I'm not going to be pushing people who aren't Ken when I think Ken is the scummiest target. And yeah I didn't reply about BBM/Marth because I was lazy and that was a gut read anyway.

I'm not doing that, though?  Let me rephrase what I'm saying because I think you're ignoring my issues with you here.

1) Having a weak read on Ken M. for RVS reasons isn't scummy, but when it's your strongest scum read by the end of the day it is.

2) Having weak reads isn't scummy, but when you drop them so easily without building upon them it is.

I don't care if you're not changing your opinions, but I'm not getting the sense that you're reevaluating them to see if they still hold true.  Admittedly I haven't bothered to reread you because I'm pretty checked out at this point, so I'll look back at those sections.

Why wouldn't you push other people though?  There's more than one scum in the game.

[Refa]

Also what do you think about Lord Gaius' stuff?

[Prims]

Really my best defense is that the Ken slot is scummy as I've said here and the reason I've been voting that all day is because I want it lynched. Calling me scummy for not having strong pushes on other players is a little baffling because they're not the player I want lynched today...

Gaius voting me because I'm "lazy compared to the usual Prims" is laughable when I played even more apathetically than this and got him mislynched D1 2-3 games ago. I would think he would remember that. Regardless of meta arguments I hate his Shinori defense because Shinori is obviously not getting lynched today and it and the Quote blurb look like filler content. Actually I don't know why he didn't just post scum reads on me and Sully to begin with instead of throwing in a bunch of secondary town reads that aren't topical to game state? Potentially padding, maybe.

I never scumread Marth except very early on over a joke which was my bad, so idk what Sully is getting at with that.

kirsche can die after Gaius as far as I'm concerned.

@Baldrickget back here why would you leave your vote on shinori. I don't even disagree with your case it's just obviously not happening today.

[Prims]

6 minutes ago, Refa said:

Why wouldn't you push other people though?  There's more than one scum in the game.

Nothing to push. Only one player gets lynched each day anyway. Following flips it becomes easier to find people through connections but one strong read is good enough for D1.

[Prims]

9 minutes ago, Refa said:

I don't care if you're not changing your opinions, but I'm not getting the sense that you're reevaluating them to see if they still hold true.  Admittedly I haven't bothered to reread you

XFD

[Prims]

11 minutes ago, Refa said:

1) Having a weak read on Ken M. for RVS reasons isn't scummy, but when it's your strongest scum read by the end of the day it is.

My read on Ken isn't weak, though. I already made a post restating it. He was reactionary and obtuse and not scumhunting the way a townie should, this lasted into the serious portion of the game as well even if he dropped out early. All this is scummy play.

12 minutes ago, Refa said:

2) Having weak reads isn't scummy, but when you drop them so easily without building upon them it is.

Weak reads get dropped as town because they were weak to begin with. If they don't evolve into anything then there's no reason to keep them.

[Refa]

I can't react fast enough if you keep on spam posting, jeez.

[Refa]

Okay, reread your BBM and Mackc2 stuff.  Fair enough on BBM because I think the logic of "FYPOV Marth would be dumb town" and the followup is more likely to come from town, but from what I can tell you just sheeped my Mackc2 read?  That's not particularly alignment indicative.

4 minutes ago, Prims said:

Really my best defense is that the Ken slot is scummy as I've said here and the reason I've been voting that all day is because I want it lynched. Calling me scummy for not having strong pushes on other players is a little baffling because they're not the player I want lynched today...

Gaius voting me because I'm "lazy compared to the usual Prims" is laughable when I played even more apathetically than this and got him mislynched D1 2-3 games ago. I would think he would remember that. Regardless of meta arguments I hate his Shinori defense because Shinori is obviously not getting lynched today and it and the Quote blurb look like filler content. Actually I don't know why he didn't just post scum reads on me and Sully to begin with instead of throwing in a bunch of secondary town reads that aren't topical to game state? Potentially padding, maybe.

Fair enough on your Ken M. read.  I'd like a response on the second quote here because it doesn't seem like you addressed it.

Fair enough on Gaius as well.

5 minutes ago, Prims said:

Nothing to push. Only one player gets lynched each day anyway. Following flips it becomes easier to find people through connections but one strong read is good enough for D1.

Makes sense.

3 minutes ago, Prims said:

My read on Ken isn't weak, though. I already made a post restating it. He was reactionary and obtuse and not scumhunting the way a townie should, this lasted into the serious portion of the game as well even if he dropped out early. All this is scummy play.

Weak reads get dropped as town because they were weak to begin with. If they don't evolve into anything then there's no reason to keep them.

Calling it a weak read was my fuck up, sorry.  My point wasn't that your read specifically was weaker, but that it was weaker because it's based off of like a few posts he made in RVS.  Like, I get it, scum has been caught by bad ED1 play before (Blitz comes to mind).  It's just I don't get how you can be so confident in it when you have barely anything to go off of there.

Yeah, fair enough on the second part.

[Refa]

9 minutes ago, Prims said:

XFD

I'd reread more if there were ISO's!

[Prims]

Yeah, Ken's behavior happened early into the game but I also think (controversial opinion) most of the posts since then have been about equally useful to the posts then. The only difference is that they have more words in them. This is why the day should have ended in a Ken lynch 48 hours in but what can you do.

[BBM]

i dunno I'm not feeling this Prims lynch

like I think one of the reasons his play might seem more apathetic than normal is that rather than posting consistently all the time he's making posts in small bursts so it feels like he's gone for large portions but I think he's still contributing a decent amount to the thread

so yeah he doesn't have a lot of side-reads but every time he makes one of those mini-bursts he's re-justifying his Ken vote, and his reasoning for the Ken vote is better than others'. Those mini-bursts are normally also talking about other players a bit, and yeah he's not pushing them hard but I'm okay with that given that I think it's been kind of hard to get reads this day phase.

[SullyMcGully]

I managed to fit in a quick read between jobs, but I will definitely not be around at the end.

@Prims: Could you answer my questions please? I may not see them but they may do some good for the others. Particularly, what's your current position on your old reads (Mack and Shinori)?

 

[Prims]

3 hours ago, kirsche said:

E.g. if we lynch Ken/Gaius and he flips mafia we might go "oh look Gaius immediately hopped onto the Sully wagon so Suly is probably not scum/mafia". (Not necessarily true but hopefully this puts forth the idea).

ALTERNATELY if Ken/Gaius flips mafia we lynch you for opposing the wagon for a non-reason and ignoring the actual cases on him.

What kirsche says here is straight up not true because when a lynched player flips scum, you catch scum by looking at how people interacted with the wagon on them more than you look at the scum's actions. He's also devaluing the worth of a scum lynch, ignoring the fact that obviously a scum lynch is good because it PUTS US CLOSER TO WINNING. It's a complete non-defense and he also didn't acknowledge me restating the case on Ken since the last time he dismissed it, which bugs me because part of the reason I felt the need to restate it was because of how much he had oversimplified it.

I do think kirsche is extremely scummy now for pushing the train of thought that you should lynch for associative reads and not scumminess. This is independent of Gaius' flip too; scum!kirsche's lack of an actual Ken defense could just as easily be because Ken is town and he doesn't care if the slot gets lynched.

[Refa]

14 minutes ago, Refa said:

Fair enough on your Ken M. read.  I'd like a response on the second quote here because it doesn't seem like you addressed it.

@Prims Please respond to this.

[ZoesMad]

26 minutes ago, Prims said:

Really my best defense is that the Ken slot is scummy as I've said here and the reason I've been voting that all day is because I want it lynched. Calling me scummy for not having strong pushes on other players is a little baffling because they're not the player I want lynched today...

Gaius voting me because I'm "lazy compared to the usual Prims" is laughable when I played even more apathetically than this and got him mislynched D1 2-3 games ago. I would think he would remember that. Regardless of meta arguments I hate his Shinori defense because Shinori is obviously not getting lynched today and it and the Quote blurb look like filler content. Actually I don't know why he didn't just post scum reads on me and Sully to begin with instead of throwing in a bunch of secondary town reads that aren't topical to game state? Potentially padding, maybe.

kirsche can die after Gaius as far as I'm concerned.

@Baldrickget back here why would you leave your vote on shinori. I don't even disagree with your case it's just obviously not happening today.

1: I can't argue against Ken's actions, which puts me at a disadvantage. I don't think there's an issue with you finding Ken scummy, it's that nothing else came after?

2: I played like absolute garbage that game so I wouldn't really use that as a point against me? That's a total straw man and not at all applicable to what's being argued here. You're also criticizing me for throwing down content when i assume i'm going to get lynched which is ???? If/when I flip, why would it not be good to have that down? Padding for what? I said that i'd talk about the main lynch wagons which were myself, Sully, and BBM, and then I had time to throw some reads out which I dead. This is such a stupid thing to call me out on. It's not like i didn't provide scumreads or evidence for them. 

[ZoesMad]

27 minutes ago, Prims said:

My read on Ken isn't weak, though. I already made a post restating it. He was reactionary and obtuse and not scumhunting the way a townie should, this lasted into the serious portion of the game as well even if he dropped out early. All this is scummy play.

Weak reads get dropped as town because they were weak to begin with. If they don't evolve into anything then there's no reason to keep them.

Can you respond to what I say on the last post of page 13 then, second quote? 

[ZoesMad]

I'm gonna go play danganronpa for an hour I'll be back

 

[SB.]

90 minutes remain. Votals are unchanged.

Day 1 is currently set to end with no lynch.