Persona 5 Mafia - Game Over

[Percivalé]

I'm too high to read the thread but I agree with baldick's posts being safe

[Percivalé]

I really think mack is scum though .......................

[Bartozio]

Did we have a reason to think they're not scum buddies outside of them framing each other right now?

[Refa]

Mackc2's case on Baldrick doesn't read as scum bussing a buddy.  Granted, I could be wrong!  But that's my impression of it.

[Bartozio]

Hmm, why though?

His post doesn't really add something new, so at best the length and timing might be a bit much. Don't know, I don't have a problem reading it as Mack's own thoughts, but I don't see why it's certainly not a bus.

[Baldrick]

 

@Marth/Sully;
One says Michelaar's play is similar to Kemono friends, the other says it is different.
I haven't read that game, could you two elaborate?

Agree with BBM re: the Shinori/Michelaar interaction, so still waiting on that case.

@Refa

Warning: self-meta

My reads have been barren and my defences have been sparse, but that's how I usually play?

I try to be as concise as possible so people can tell what I think and aren't intimidated by long posts.
With scumreads, I only cite the reads/reactions that are scummy, or give context to why other reads/reactions are scummy, and you can assume everything else is not scummy but doesn't make me doubt my read.
While defending, I try to explain myself as plainly as possible. I am town, so my words should be enough to convince you or else you're scum trying to ML me.

@bbm
I forgot to address that. I typed an explanation as to why I didn't agree with the prims wagon, then redacted it because it was too emotional. Then I thought I couldn't leave it at that, I had to say something about Gaius. I was already running late so I picked the first post I saw, and posted it. If you also can't take it at face value, fair enough, but it is what happened.

@Bartozio
Ideally, I'd have comprehensive reads on everyone. But there's only so much time in a day, so I figure a few strong reads are better than many weak reads. The order of that list is scumreads, townreads, associative townreads.

1. As I told Mackc, I wanted to give Gaius time to read the thread, post reads. This was impossible if I lynched him D1. So it follows that I pursue other reads.

2. Because I didn't want to give Gaius time to read until I knew that he was subbing in.
I voted for Gaius to secure a lynch.

Now that you mention it, you said something similar. You weren't a big fan of lynching LG without him being able to do much. Why would you say that if you were happy to sit on Ken/Gaius? Did you never think to pursue other reads?

 

 

[Refa]

10 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

His post doesn't really add something new, so at best the length and timing might be a bit much. Don't know, I don't have a problem reading it as Mack's own thoughts, but I don't see why it's certainly not a bus.

I'm not certain, I just think Mackc2's case would be a lot stronger if he was bussing a buddy.  Scum!Mackc2 would know what makes Scum!Baldrick scummy and why, and wouldn't resort to what IMO are rather weak reasons to scum read the slot.

4 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

@Refa

Warning: self-meta

  Hide contents

My reads have been barren and my defences have been sparse, but that's how I usually play?

I try to be as concise as possible so people can tell what I think and aren't intimidated by long posts.
With scumreads, I only cite the reads/reactions that are scummy, or give context to why other reads/reactions are scummy, and you can assume everything else is not scummy but doesn't make me doubt my read.
While defending, I try to explain myself as plainly as possible. I am town, so my words should be enough to convince you or else you're scum trying to ML me.

 

Not gonna lie, I don't remember how you usually play.  Fair enough WRT how you scumread and defend yourself, though.

[Zkirsche]

Was Mich the guy who gets mad after being cased?

[Mackc2]

There's a nagging voice in my head telling me to reveal my true form.
And that voice is the voice of @Paperblade he told me to post this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwococlSFPI as this is where his member title is from. Scum should already know whats going on because they have a copy of my role pm. I am Sae Nijima I can talk to the hidden player Paperblade and if I die he dies with me but if I live to day 4 he joins the game as an actual player. Now I am going to post Paperblades reads. 
 

Refa's posts highlight exactly the problem with Baldrick. All his posts are safe and do nothing to further the game state. This is classic scum play, he makes a bunch of empty remarks that don't do anything to help the town but make him look helpful (such as the post I had Mack link). He didn't do anything all game until Gaius subbed in . He asked a few questions that went nowhere and people think he had a good early game? He had no reads until people started putting pressure on him

If Baldrick wasn't being voted today do you think he'd be doing shit or would he just go back to just asking questions and coaching people? This is by far the scummiest slot itg, he hasn't talked about anyone but ken/shinori/marth/mack and his switch back to Gaius at end of day 1 was insanely shady. 

Baldrick has no opinion on over half the game, claiming lack of motivation because he decided Ken was the for sure lynch less than 24 hours into the game? Yet as soon as Gaius subs in and it looks like he might be able to save the slot, suddenly Baldrick has opinions about other players? When Marth calls him out on this he just posts a list with no reasoning and pulls a Mack scumread out of his ass (which is meaningless because Mack was already the clear counterwagon). His reasons for all his reads sans Shinori/Mack/Marth are total garbage, it's just "X but normal" and a townread on BBM for sharing scumreads. He continues to avoid giving reads on other players even his latest post and makes excuses for it. His self meta says he only cites reads that are scummy, yet to Bart his excuse is that there's only so much time in a day to give comprehensive reads. This reads to me like he is just trying to come up with excuses for why he can't give reads

Baldrick's play looks like scum who picked a few players to tunnel on and is ignoring the rest of the game 

This is Mack's like third game ever and he has a shit timezone+work+me making like ten thousand comments in our OC chat. I haven't read his previous two games but my understanding is he almost got lynched in both of those two games but had a good role to save him.

Other reads:

Bartozio is pretty forgettable but apparently he's lynchbait. I don't really have any strong feelings on him atm

I'm mildly concerned about BBM because I wouldn't put it past him to lynch Baldrick. I don't get that scumbbm vibe (I hosted the smogon C9++ game he was mafia in). I feel like him thinking about potential scumteams isn't something scumbbm would do

kirsche needs to post more. Low post count = scummy. It's easy for scum to make content posts once a day, a lot harder to sit around and interact with people. idk if this is just a timezone issue or what though. I might be over paranoid about this slot because I know kirsche is a good player

Marth's posts tend to have good logic which makes me think he's thinking about the game, but he's weirdly passive and I'm not sure if that's because Marth is scum or if he's just low confidence and not wanting to try to push the game like Prims or someone would

Michelaar needs to do stuff and have reads. I've shared Quote's sentiment that they need to be vigged since late Day 1. Slapfight with Shinori looks bad, since it feels like Mich is just reacting to pressure

I feel like Refa is town but I have this paranoid gut feeling. The hidden player comment triggered me for obvious reasons but the more I think about it the more I think that Refa wouldn't make that comment if he was actually mafia. I don't think Refa is actually that cocky. But maybe I'm trying to rationalize a misread. idk, refa sucks

Sully's reaction to Baldrick's fake day end and general attitude has me thinking they are town. If they are mafia and actually new they are playing really well. One of my bigger townreads.

I feel like Quote is village but Quote is not being quite as spammy as I remember them being, and I know they tend to be more reserved as mafia. However, I know they've had like doctor's appointments and stuff 

I want everyone in this game to give me potential scumteams they think are legit

I also want to request protection tonight as I am essentially a double kill for scum team. 

I also want to ask Refa something regarding the hidden player, If the OP said there was no hidden players then thy did you say they could ask to become one? It just seems to be a strange coincidence that you mention hidden players when only I and the Mafia know they exist 
 

 

[Mackc2]

Oh also should probably mention I was asleep the whole end phrase last day so thats why I left it on Ken because I got tired and cranky so I just put it there and forgot to come back and keep playing 

[Refa]

5 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

I also want to ask Refa something regarding the hidden player, If the OP said there was no hidden players then thy did you say they could ask to become one? It just seems to be a strange coincidence that you mention hidden players when only I and the Mafia know they exist 

Because I was trolling, I didn't know there actually was a hidden player.

[SullyMcGully]

11 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

@Marth/Sully;
One says Michelaar's play is similar to Kemono friends, the other says it is different.
I haven't read that game, could you two elaborate?

In Kemono friends, Michelaar was mislynched for the fourth time in a row (at least I think so, I heard somebody in that thread talking about that). I've only read the game once, but similarities I've noticed include:

1. Posting as a reaction: Michelaar only really got active and posted reads when others voted him. That made him look scummy.

2. Lack of post depth: none of his posts were very well-written or well-thought-out. His reads were all quite shallow, sometimes seeming like he was just making them for emotional reasons. 

3. Bad attitude: Mich was way too reactive to others suspecting him, often giving emotional retorts whenever he was accused of anything. It seems like he takes these games rather personally, but him using an emotional defense instead of a rational one really made him look bad. The best defenses for Michelaar, when you look at it, are not posts he has made, but posts others have made regarding him.

I agree that Michelaar's play is different from Kemono friends, he's significantly less involved here than he was there and from what I've heard here so far, that's how he behaves as scum. However, there are a lot of similarities in his playstyle.

[Bartozio]

8 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

@Bartozio
Ideally, I'd have comprehensive reads on everyone. But there's only so much time in a day, so I figure a few strong reads are better than many weak reads. The order of that list is scumreads, townreads, associative townreads.

1. As I told Mackc, I wanted to give Gaius time to read the thread, post reads. This was impossible if I lynched him D1. So it follows that I pursue other reads.

2. Because I didn't want to give Gaius time to read until I knew that he was subbing in.
I voted for Gaius to secure a lynch.

Now that you mention it, you said something similar. You weren't a big fan of lynching LG without him being able to do much. Why would you say that if you were happy to sit on Ken/Gaius? Did you never think to pursue other reads?

I understand not liking the idea of lynching Gaius without giving him much time to post reads. However, that shouldn't change the fact that his slot was still your best scum read at the time (this is why I kept my vote on him). Why was this not the case for you?

I don't feel like you're saying anything new, so let me be more specific then:

Did you still find LG's slot the most scummy when you unvoted him? (Like, if you had to lynch someone then and there, would it be him?)

Why was giving LG the chance to post more so important to you that you swapped your vote?

 

[BBM]

THE RETURN OF HIDDEN PLAYERS

mack, what are Paperblade's opinions about Shinori

[Refa]

Also I thought the scumteam would be Mackc2/Shinori and one of Kirsche/Baldrick.  Assuming Mackc2 is town, uh...I dunno, those are still the three players I think are most likely to flip scum.  Mreh, don't think this is a scum role so...

##Unvote

##Vote: Baldrick

[SB.]

Votals 2.3

Baldrick (5): BBM, Marth, Mackc2, Bartozio, Refa
Mackc2 (2): SullyMcGully, Via
Bartozio (1): kirsche
Shinori (1): Baldrick
SullyMcGully (1): Michelaar
Michelaar (1): Shinori

With 11 alive, it takes 4 to lynch and 8 to hammer. Phase ends in 48 hours.

[Mackc2]

3 minutes ago, BBM said:

THE RETURN OF HIDDEN PLAYERS

mack, what are Paperblade's opinions about Shinori

To paraphrase, haven't really analysed his posts but shinori is acting normal

8 minutes ago, Refa said:

Because I was trolling, I didn't know there actually was a hidden player.

I'm watching you 

[Bartozio]

3 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

In Kemono friends, Michelaar was mislynched for the fourth time in a row (at least I think so, I heard somebody in that thread talking about that).

I'm going to correct you here, because it matters quite a bit. Kemono friends was Mich's first town game. His two games before that he was scum. He got lynched on the first day in both of those two games.

The argument made was that Mich was being more proactive in Kemono friends then he was in his two scum games.

3 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

I've only read the game once, but similarities I've noticed include:

1. Posting as a reaction: Michelaar only really got active and posted reads when others voted him. That made him look scummy.

2. Lack of post depth: none of his posts were very well-written or well-thought-out. His reads were all quite shallow, sometimes seeming like he was just making them for emotional reasons. 

3. Bad attitude: Mich was way too reactive to others suspecting him, often giving emotional retorts whenever he was accused of anything. It seems like he takes these games rather personally, but him using an emotional defense instead of a rational one really made him look bad. The best defenses for Michelaar, when you look at it, are not posts he has made, but posts others have made regarding him.

I agree that Michelaar's play is different from Kemono friends, he's significantly less involved here than he was there and from what I've heard here so far, that's how he behaves as scum. However, there are a lot of similarities in his playstyle.

Who said this bolded part, because I think most people have been saying the opposite?

[Zkirsche]

Why is Paperblade in my game?

[Refa]

Just now, Mackc2 said:

I'm watching you 

Generally it's a good idea to watch the most likely nightkill target, just don't announce it on thread mmkay?

[Baldrick]

NGL, if this is real, this is a complete sucker punch.

 

@Paperblade; if it was you all along, why didn't you have Mackc adapt your reads to make it sound like it was coming from him instead of posting his own weak reads?

[SullyMcGully]

OK what Mack just did was weird. I hadn't even heard of hidden players until this game. I now need to rethink everything I know, but my read on a Baldrick/Mack scumteam is trash now. 

I don't know how legit this whole "hidden player" thing is... like, I literally have no idea. I really need to rethink this all, it's making my head explode. 

For now, I'm a bit less suspicious of Mack. I hate to hold back and not give my opinion on this, but I'd really like to hear from the professional players about the legitimacy of Mack's roleclaim before saying anything, because I now know nothing. I did not know this could happen in Mafia. 

In short, I'm confused. 

Unvote

Vote: Baldrick

7 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

I'm going to correct you here, because it matters quite a bit. Kemono friends was Mich's first town game. His two games before that he was scum. He got lynched on the first day in both of those two games.

The argument made was that Mich was being more proactive in Kemono friends then he was in his two scum games.

Who said this bolded part, because I think most people have been saying the opposite?

Wow, I must have misread something. You're right, that does matter a lot.

Um, I said the bolded part. Does it look like I was quoting someone? Did you mean to bold the part right after that?

I only read Kemono friends once, and my memory's kinda hazy about certain aspects, but didn't Michelaar post a lot more there than he has here?

This is embarassing.

[Mackc2]

3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

@Paperblade; if it was you all along, why didn't you have Mackc adapt your reads to make it sound like it was coming from him instead of posting his own weak reads?

Generally we aren't on at the same time because timezones, and Paperblade agreed with my reads

 

[BBM]

you know what time it is

IT'S POE TIME!!!!!!

Almost Certainly Town:

Via because there's no way they'd be so motivated as scum. they're so motivated in this game that they feel obligated to post every other day apologizing for being busy and doctor's appointments and stuff

Marth: I highly doubt scum Marth goes to the effort of reading two past games to dig up meta on why I'm town. I could see him doing it to find scum meta on me but then if he didn't find anything that would help his case he would have just kept it to himself. this is what I meant wrt town Marth being more likely to look for reasons to defend people than scum Marth

Probably Town:

kirsche: I thought his case against me was one of the better ones. Also I don't think scum kirsche would go to the effort of writing that gigantic Prims case just to kill him that night. if he did he probably deserves to win tbh

Mack: this role is most likely town

Probably Town but I'm paranoid:

Refa: there isn't actually anything scummy he's done but I'm a little skeptical that the Prims wagon was all town because I feel like scum would have tried to take the chance to mislynch a good player. I'm also paranoid that he's not dead given literally nobody even had a suspicion of him on D1 but I guess he was an obvious doc target?

Remaining People:

Baldrick, Shinori, Michelaar, Bartozio, Sully

Baldrick and Shinori are completely plausible scumbuddies and should be lynched first (note that despite all of Shinori's outrage towards Baldrick he is currently not voting him). I currently think that in a vacuum Michelaar and Bartozio are more likely to be scum than Sully because Sully's later cases have been better and more like what I would think new players would make. HOWEVER I don't think a scumteam of Baldrick, Shinori, and either Michelaar or Bartozio is plausible because there would be way too much in-bussing. This scumteam would basically be guaranteeing a scum lynch on D2 and they wouldn't even get much towncred from it because there were already buddy suspicions between them all. So if both Baldrick and Shinori are scum the third buddy is probably Sully. If Baldrick is scum but Shinori isn't, I can see Baldrick/Michelaar/Bartozio and if Shinori is scum but Baldrick isn't I would go Shinori/Bartozio/Sully

can we get votals because Baldrick might be close to a lynch at this point

[Bartozio]

Baldrick is at 6 by my count, SB posted votals not to long ago, and Sully should be the only vote change since then.