Should there be an emnity/resentment penalty?

[henrymidfields]

We all know that support conversations and bonuses are a thing in FE. But what about the opposite? Should future games (including remakes) have enmity penalties where former enemies who are forced to work together (read: Oboro + all Nohrians from Fates Revelations, Zeiss/Shin from FE6 etc) still resents each other, leading to poor teamwork. Such as lowered accuracy, weaker attack, dual guard fills up slower or even has a chance of failing. I think there was something similar with the Darcen Hater potential from Valkyrie Chronicles.

Granted, this could be complicated for newcomers to FE, and thus I think this should stay away from Normal Mode. But I would like to see this done on higher difficulties. Adding an extra challenge without having to rely on inflated enemy stats is a good thing, for starters. Also, if the former enemy has high stats (which I think is usually the case with the Minerva archetype), then this would be one way the game would force you to not overly rely on him/her, other than, say, the fatigue mechanic or having effective weapons everywhere. I wouldn't mind seeing more integration of character backstories with gameplay. Perhaps the penalty would wear off over time, and the penalty can also be gradually taken off if the unit builds support with his/her former enemies.

Edited November 29, 2017 by henrymidfields

[MCProductions]

Echoes kinda does this, build Faye's supports with Alm and she'll actually suffer an avoid debuff. 

[Dragoncat]

58 minutes ago, MCProductions said:

Echoes kinda does this, build Faye's supports with Alm and she'll actually suffer an avoid debuff. 

Wow, really? Source?

The idea is good, but I'm fine with it not being added too. I play on normal mode anyway. I tried hard mode on Awakening once. Regretted it. Started over on normal mode. I suck.

[MCProductions]

4 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

Wow, really? Source?

The idea is good, but I'm fine with it not being added too. I play on normal mode anyway. I tried hard mode on Awakening once. Regretted it. Started over on normal mode. I suck.

Quote

Faye

Support Partner	Rank	Hit	Crt	Avo	CEv	Total Points	From Act
Alm	None		+3			–	–
	C	+5	+5	-5		20	1
	B	+10	+10	-10		45	3
	A	+20	+15	-15		90	4

https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/characters/support-bonus/

Only support in the game with negative effects, tho she is buffed for the most part

Edited November 29, 2017 by MCProductions

[Dragoncat]

1 minute ago, MCProductions said:

https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/characters/support-bonus/

Damn! I knew there had to be a reason I was avoiding building their supports other than setting her up for a broken heart. I think they're at C though. Because I got tired of seeing the "talk!" thing...but I keep them far away from each other as much as possible.

[Armagon]

I think it should, in the beginning. But as Support level increases, the resentment penalty will decrease, until it doesn't affect anyone anymore. 

[Dragoncat]

41 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I think it should, in the beginning. But as Support level increases, the resentment penalty will decrease, until it doesn't affect anyone anymore. 

Yeah that's in the OP. I'd be more apt to accept it if this was the case, rather than the penalty always being there no matter what.

[MCProductions]

Mug	User can steal an item from the enemy. However it reduces the Accuracy and Avoid of all allies within a 3 square radius

Guess I should mention, Tearring Saga has a skill for one unit in particular that debuffs your units. Technically not a Support, but it is activated thru the same means as supports in that game

[thecrimsonflash]

1 hour ago, MCProductions said:

https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/characters/support-bonus/

Only support in the game with negative effects, tho she is buffed for the most part

she is distracted by alm's sexiness.

[Icelerate]

I agree with this. This could allow Raven to suffer a penalty if he's within range of Hector, for example. 

[De Geso]

It is a nice concept but there's a fear that it will make some units unviable when in the same army. It would cause less variance across playthroughs, too.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't mind them as innate penalties, perhaps something the units would have to work out after accruing enough support points. But I would prefer such a mechanic to be made clear to the player. Support bonuses have never been explained in-game until Awakening as far as I remember. And I at least hope the bonuses it shows in combat are accurate, I've never seen a complete compilation of Awakening or any other modern FE game's battle calculations, and this series is known for having the numbers lie to us.

The AlmxFaye support is funny. It's like when Tellah loses strength, stamina, and speed stats when he levels up in FF4, just a joke the developers put in the game. I'd rather it be that one-off joke rather than a common mechanic. You can't undo supports. Well, you can undo Radiant Dawn's not-supports, but in the context of other games I think you would create a serious inconvenience. Because now players have to remember which pairs hate each other. Or which pairs have a rivalry that buffs their crit rate but drops their crit avoid. If support bonuses were still invisible to the player, then I don't want to see "support penalties" added to the mix.

[Noni]

This could've Potential. I think, it is a bit too complicated from a Gameplay-Perspective, but it could give the Characters a bit more Depth, if not all their Relationships end in Friendship, but some of them get worse over the war.

Well, I am not really talking about a penalty, but about full CBA-Anti-Supports. It could give high risk-Rewards like lets say one Character getting higher Damage and Crit, while having less avo and Acc, because the Presence of the other one makes him angry. Or one of them gets paranoid around the other one and that makes him more on-guard, which gives him more avo and acc.

[Randoman]

It sounds like it could be a neat idea, especially if implemented in the way Armagon suggested. Knowing IS, I have a feeling it'd be fused with the Support system and it wouldn't be called anything special. I would personally be okay with that, but I'm not sure what everyone else here would think of it being fused with Supports.

[henrymidfields]

@Randoman, @Armagon

FE, is admittedly about bonds and trust, so it would be out of character (not to mention frustrating in gameplay) if the antimosity grows. Perhaps what could happen is to start with a set penalty when the former enemy joins, and decrease them as that recruit built supports with his/her former adversaries. For arguments sake, a hypothetical FE6 Echoes can have Milady (being from Bern, the enemy nation) suffer -15% avo and -10% crit dodge penalties when a non-Bernian is nearby. Her penalty can be lessened in set amounts if she supports with, say, Lugh or Jodel. The penalty will not be mitigated, however, if Milady had her conversations with Zeiss or Elen (both being Bernians). Each penalties will be specific to the units, which means that Elen and Zeiss would has smaller penalties than Milady, to reflect the former's lower stats overall and the latter's lack of availability.

[FRZNHeir]

I personally think it would have been a great mechanic in Fates Revelations, considering the fact that you have both Nohrian and Hoshidan units.

It would be cool if the story effected this as well. 
Say, Character A suggests that the army do something, but it ends in the army being ambushed, units are less likely to do well in combat near him/her. Or a new character appears and is sketchy, same deal. Or mercenaries that are hired just aren't treated well due to the "sell-sword" reputation.

It would definitely complicate things.

[Randoman]

17 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

FE, is admittedly about bonds and trust, so it would be out of character (not to mention frustrating in gameplay) if the antimosity grows. Perhaps what could happen is to start with a set penalty when the former enemy joins, and decrease them as that recruit built supports with his/her former adversaries. For arguments sake, a hypothetical FE6 Echoes can have Milady (being from Bern, the enemy nation) suffer -15% avo and -10% crit dodge penalties when a non-Bernian is nearby. Her penalty can be lessened in set amounts if she supports with, say, Lugh or Jodel. The penalty will not be mitigated, however, if Milady had her conversations with Zeiss or Elen (both being Bernians). Each penalties will be specific to the units, which means that Elen and Zeiss would has smaller penalties than Milady, to reflect the former's lower stats overall and the latter's lack of availability.

That does sound like a pretty good way of implementing it. Though of course, character support/percent specifics would have to be play tested and worked out, but that aside, it seems pretty solid.