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Are Firesweep Weapons Worth Using?


Von Ithipathachai
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So I pulled Soleil from the Children of Fate banner and I'm training her, but I don't really like her Firesweep Sword.  I hate not being able to counter, but I'm wondering if being able to attack without being countered is at all worth it.

So should I keep the Firesweep Sword+ on her or grab a Brave Sword+ instead?

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On a unit like Soleil, the Firesweep Sword is good on her since she's fast enough. Being able to double without fear of being countered is great. Firesweep weapons are good on units who hit hard and fast. So yes, it is worth it on Soleil.

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It's also good on units that utilize movement B skills, like drag back and hit and run. Drag back gives a weaker unit the chance to use their mobility to move the foe in an unfavorable spot, while hit and run is good for a free hit and get out of the spot you attacked from. Lunge and knockback imo are not very good so not really a need to mention them.

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I was about somewhat discussing that with someone. I didn't see how that would warrant a spot for something like Brave (if you can quad) or maybe even Slayer-types (countering somewhat helps activate specials). Maps sometimes have certain chokepoints that pretty much warrant somebody take the shot, so I also feel more comfterble being able to retaliate.

As someone said above, they're probably best for someone who packs really high Atk as well as Spd somewhat. So, yeah, Soleil was basically (literally?) made for it. And on the other hand, I know firsthand that they can benefit from freeing up the B-slot to certain things like Breakers and even Wrath (which is what I'm using).

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*sigh* Alright.  Guess I'll keep it and give her Drag Back instead.  I would prefer Hit and Run, but the only unit I have who knows it is Elincia, who I am absolutely not sacrificing.

Though, I'm wondering if I can also give her Fortress Defense instead of Darting Blow, since her Attack and Speed seem to be plenty high as they are and I'd like her to be able to take hits well if she can't counter.

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6 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Though, I'm wondering if I can also give her Fortress Defense instead of Darting Blow, since her Attack and Speed seem to be plenty high as they are and I'd like her to be able to take hits well if she can't counter.

Fortress Def is a waste. The entire point of Firesweep weapons is to get in, kill something, and get out without taking damage. A Firesweep user should never be getting attacked to begin with.

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Definitely, in fact they can be a bit broken if the unit has high enough Attack and Speed. Also you don't have to worry about Vantage

They have as much power as vanilla Silver weapons, so the point is to just KO asap without having to worry about counterattacks

Cavalry users and fliers would also make good use of them because of their mobility

 

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Firesweep weapons are very good on the right units and the right teams. They make any initiation safe, effectively nullifying stuff like Vantage, Quick Riposte, and Distant Counter (for Firesweep Bow), comboing well with dancers, reposition, and hit and run.

Take, for example, the fact that Elincia just became the highest-ranked sword unit on Gamepedia's arena tier list. It is because of Firesweep Sword. And she's sharing that tier with Tana, Cordelia, and Brave Lyn, all of whom are where they are in large part (though not entirely) due to Firesweep builds.

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To me, Firesweep is great for units who care none for Defenses, and goes full offense. If they have already terrible defensive stats, then you don't even want them taking many hits so Firesweep just lessens the amount they'll take. Soleil has great stats for it.

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3 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

*sigh* Alright.  Guess I'll keep it and give her Drag Back instead.  I would prefer Hit and Run, but the only unit I have who knows it is Elincia, who I am absolutely not sacrificing.

Though, I'm wondering if I can also give her Fortress Defense instead of Darting Blow, since her Attack and Speed seem to be plenty high as they are and I'd like her to be able to take hits well if she can't counter.

Life and Death is probably her best bet for A slot. Since she's not taking counters and has a nonexistent enemy phase, her defense doesn't matter at all, and it it increases both attack and speed almost as much as their respective blow skills meaning she can double more and hit harder. I mean, neutral Soleil would have 58 attack and 40 speed with that setup.

 

2 hours ago, Florete said:

Take, for example, the fact that Elincia just became the highest-ranked sword unit on Gamepedia's arena tier list. It is because of Firesweep Sword. And she's sharing that tier with Tana, Cordelia, and Brave Lyn, all of whom are where they are in large part (though not entirely) due to Firesweep builds.

Maybe it's because I'm not in tier 20, but that seems a little ridiculous. I have a hard time believing they're all, excluding Brave Lyn, better than Reinhardt. I mean yeah, deflect magic put a damper on him, but he's still got an effective +2 range on them and still has crazy good offense. Granted, the only one I have is Cordelia, but looking at Tana and Elincia, it seems like they'd function identically. Yeah, she's got astounding offense, but Rein and B!Lyn have a much easier time positioning and are much more difficult to navigate around because of their massive range. Not to mention all 3 of them fold immediately to archers who also outrange them.

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21 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Maybe it's because I'm not in tier 20, but that seems a little ridiculous. I have a hard time believing they're all, excluding Brave Lyn, better than Reinhardt. I mean yeah, deflect magic put a damper on him, but he's still got an effective +2 range on them and still has crazy good offense. Granted, the only one I have is Cordelia, but looking at Tana and Elincia, it seems like they'd function identically. Yeah, she's got astounding offense, but Rein and B!Lyn have a much easier time positioning and are much more difficult to navigate around because of their massive range. Not to mention all 3 of them fold immediately to archers who also outrange them.

I'm not one of the tier list organizers so I can't give their reasoning, but I can make guesses as to reasons for this:

  • The tier list is primarily based around offense, not defense. Archers countering them doesn't really matter since the whole purpose of a Firesweep build is to not get hit in the first place.
  • Among other things recently, the weapon refinery helps to make mounted teams not as dominant while not really doing anything to hurt fliers specifically.
  • These 4 units have various potential builds. Note the "(though not entirely)" part in my previous posts; these units can use other builds effectively as well, making them that much more versatile. Reinhardt, while potentially decent with a -blade tome build, is pretty much always going to be running Dire Thunder and will therefore always fall to the same counters.
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13 hours ago, Florete said:

I'm not one of the tier list organizers so I can't give their reasoning, but I can make guesses as to reasons for this:

  • The tier list is primarily based around offense, not defense. Archers countering them doesn't really matter since the whole purpose of a Firesweep build is to not get hit in the first place.
  • Among other things recently, the weapon refinery helps to make mounted teams not as dominant while not really doing anything to hurt fliers specifically.
  • These 4 units have various potential builds. Note the "(though not entirely)" part in my previous posts; these units can use other builds effectively as well, making them that much more versatile. Reinhardt, while potentially decent with a -blade tome build, is pretty much always going to be running Dire Thunder and will therefore always fall to the same counters.

I only mention the archers because either way you're going to have to accommodate them. On offense, you need to use dances, movement skills, or effective baiting to safely attack archers. On defense, you still have to too, but I won't go into detail since we established it isn't relevant, which I'd forgotten at the time of posting. Yeah, sure, none of those are especially difficult, but they're still factors. Mages present a similar issue, just with mildly less likelihood of immediate death if you mess up.

True about refinery, but +12 attack Rein is still destroying pretty much  everything. Heck, from everything I've seen, +8 manhandles most non-bulky greens, if you're running 1 hone/2 goads and run into a horse-effective weapon. Then again, this is where my lack of tier 20 experience probably affects things most, since maybe things change a lot there. I guess the pegs could chip color disadvantages with impunity, so that's something.

Tana I'll buy for multiple builds, but every build I've ever seen for Elincia and Cordelia involves just doing as much damage as possible before the enemy can counter, be that with brave/desperation or firesweep. I haven't seen a big difference in functionality between the builds, but again, I'm not at that level. Going back to your Rein + blade example, yeah it's rare, but he's still packing 45-48 attack before skills and boosts. No, it's not one-shot range, but with even class-independent boosts, he can hit low-mid 60s pretty easily, which gives him a decent alternate build.

Actually talking through these made me a little less skeptical, but even still, I feel like the flexibility his move and attack range give him would at least put him in the same realm as those 3. Now I'm not arguing he should be unequivocally S+. Rather, I'm just not sure I buy them being that much better than him that they warrant being an entire tier above him. But meh, it's a tier list. They can't please everyone.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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33 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

*Long post*

Honestly, I'm not even saying I agree or disagree with it, just stating what it is and why it might be that way. Reinhardt is still in the next tier down, so it's not like he's made a Takumi drop-off.

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4 hours ago, Florete said:

Honestly, I'm not even saying I agree or disagree with it, just stating what it is and why it might be that way. Reinhardt is still in the next tier down, so it's not like he's made a Takumi drop-off.

Oh yeah, that wasn't directed at you. It was more just me writing my thought. Wasn't trying to start a debate or anything

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5 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Then again, this is where my lack of tier 20 experience probably affects things most, since maybe things change a lot there.

There is a big difference at tier 20 but an even bigger difference in the higher end of tier 20 where you face people who spend money on the game. 

 

I recommend creating a new account and playing with Brave Roy if you don't have him. Now with that experience, try to see how a flying unit with the same kit but cannot be countered feels. Trust me it is hella fun safely obliterating things while having more BST and being immune to both Counters and Terrain (horses have high MOV but big terrain issues). It is an expensive build requiring you to sacrifice Ike + Gale Force while also having access to either Hinoka or H!Nowi for the sweet sweet Hone Fliers. Give them Flyer formation an they will basically have 3 MOV range.

 

Rein is great but not as great as he used to be as IS keeps on pumping out counters to him. It has gotten to the point where many Reds can survive and KO him if built to do so. I still love my +10 Rein but I cannot say I don't enjoy Firesweep flyers any less. They make the game even more trivial than he does.

Edited by Clogon
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16 minutes ago, Clogon said:

There is a big difference at tier 20 but an even bigger difference in the higher end of tier 20 where you face people who spend money on the game. 

 

I recommend creating a new account and playing with Brave Roy if you don't have him. Now with that experience, try to see how a flying unit with the same kit but cannot be countered feels. Trust me it is hella fun safely obliterating things while being immune to both Counters and Terrain (horses have high MOV but big terrain issues). It is an expensive build requiring you to sacrifice Ike, Gale Force and having access to either Hinoka or H!Nowi. Give them Flyer formation an they will basically have 3 MOV range.

 

Rein is great but not as great as he used to be as IS keeps on pumping out counters to him. It has gotten to the point where many Reds can survive and KO him if built to do so. I still love my +10 Rein but I cannot say I don't enjoy Firesweep flyers any less. They make the game even more trivial than he does.

Makes sense. I so very wish I had Brave Roy. Just recently got blazing Durandal on +SPD Eliwood, so I might give that a try since he's not too far off Brave Roy's neutral offense. Are Hinoka and Nowi just for hone?

Anyway, I'll defer to people who have more experience than I do and your points do make sense. I personally just tend to find myself being annoyed at the -1/-2 move/attack when I use my flier team. No arguing that they've added a whole bunch of counters for Rein though.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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19 hours ago, Florete said:

I'm not one of the tier list organizers so I can't give their reasoning, but I can make guesses as to reasons for this:

  • The tier list is primarily based around offense, not defense. Archers countering them doesn't really matter since the whole purpose of a Firesweep build is to not get hit in the first place.
  • Among other things recently, the weapon refinery helps to make mounted teams not as dominant while not really doing anything to hurt fliers specifically.
  • These 4 units have various potential builds. Note the "(though not entirely)" part in my previous posts; these units can use other builds effectively as well, making them that much more versatile. Reinhardt, while potentially decent with a -blade tome build, is pretty much always going to be running Dire Thunder and will therefore always fall to the same counters.

They actually gave no shit to versatility in term of set. Which i agree with since.... i mean would you really gives a shit that all Dragons had is Deflrct Seal Lightning Breath with Steady Breath when that core set is so good to begin with? 

The real reason Rein is not S+ is something nobody could quite explain which really boils down to tier list maker hate horse for various reason. He actually run 3 different set at the best of his class

Elincia, Cordelia and Tana is S+ entirely because of sweep in a sense that the moment you remove it from the game they drop a tier by their consideration. Firesweep works with flier well and they had good stats sure but at the end Firesweep gave an absurd inflation for every flier in tier list that is instrumental to their S+ Rank

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9 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

They actually gave no shit to versatility in term of set. Which i agree with since.... i mean would you really gives a shit that all Dragons had is Deflrct Seal Lightning Breath with Steady Breath when that core set is so good to begin with? 

The real reason Rein is not S+ is something nobody could quite explain which really boils down to tier list maker hate horse for various reason. He actually run 3 different set at the best of his class

Elincia, Cordelia and Tana is S+ entirely because of sweep in a sense that the moment you remove it from the game they drop a tier by their consideration. Firesweep works with flier well and they had good stats sure but at the end Firesweep gave an absurd inflation for every flier in tier list that is instrumental to their S+ Rank

Out of curiosity, what are the three sets? I can think of two, the two discussed so far.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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15 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

They actually gave no shit to versatility in term of set. Which i agree with since.... i mean would you really gives a shit that all Dragons had is Deflrct Seal Lightning Breath with Steady Breath when that core set is so good to begin with? 

The real reason Rein is not S+ is something nobody could quite explain which really boils down to tier list maker hate horse for various reason. He actually run 3 different set at the best of his class

Elincia, Cordelia and Tana is S+ entirely because of sweep in a sense that the moment you remove it from the game they drop a tier by their consideration. Firesweep works with flier well and they had good stats sure but at the end Firesweep gave an absurd inflation for every flier in tier list that is instrumental to their S+ Rank

Not sure on the fliers, but I know for certain that Lyn's multiple effective builds are a lot of why she's so high. The list editors said so themselves.

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11 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Out of curiosity, what are the three sets? I can think of two, the two discussed so far.

Raven, Blade and Dire thunder. He has enough ATK and defensive stats to take no damage while oneshotting with TA Raven. As the highest ATK blue calv mage, his -Blade version is enough to oneshot Nino. Everyone already knows his Dire thunder build.

Edited by Clogon
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3 minutes ago, Clogon said:

Raven, Blade and Dire thunder. He has enough ATK and defensive stats to take no damage while oneshotting with TA Raven. As the highest ATK blue calv mage, his -Blade version is enough to oneshot Nino. Everyone already knows his Dire thunder build.

For some reason raven never occurred to me, but makes sense. He's essentially a bulkier Cecilia at that point.

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5 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Out of curiosity, what are the three sets? I can think of two, the two discussed so far.

Close Counter Vantage Blade, Deathblow Direthunder(theres technically a gazillion of variants of this set) and hes technically the best TA raven in the game as far as Blue goes

Mind TARaven Hardt is definitely something that wont get rated in the tier list but his potency as CCVantage and garden variety DT is so absurd in Arena context

1 minute ago, Florete said:

Not sure on the fliers, but I know for certain that Lyn's multiple effective builds are a lot of why she's so high. The list editors said so themselves.

Lyn is versatile but honestly speaking i really dont see her dropping a tier if all she had in term of set is the Mulagir set

 

The point is that if a unit had an S+set they should be S+. Est only have 1 set and shes still S is my main point really. Same with Cherche

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13 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

For some reason raven never occurred to me, but makes sense. He's essentially a bulkier Cecilia at that point.

People greatly underestimate his other builds. If built correctly, he can counter Bow Lyn, his Dire thunder build and the usual reds with TA Raven.

Dispite his low SPD, Phantom SPD 3 is enough for him to safely hit many green mages thanks to Hone Cav and the Sweep skills in his Blade build. But more importantly, he can hit those pesky dragons and oneshot the red ones.

He is a lot more versatile than people give him credit for. Dire Death blow is cheap and easy. Why invest in a great unit to make it slightly greater and only have 1 super great unit when you can use that investment to make a not so good unit into a great unit and have 2 great units? Cost effectiveness is very important for F2P players.

Edited by Clogon
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