Which units benefit the most from the refinery?

[Prince Endriu]

Was wondering which units have become much better in your opinion. And which 'obsolete' units you would now promote to 5* thanks to the refinery.

Imo Caeda has been a surprise - while still not fantastic, she actually kills much more and I will invest into her with time.

Another unit that regret sending home a couple of times is Peri. I got her as a free 5* with -atk which is 41. Absolutely horrible. Got a +atk-res 4* which I will promote and merge, her atk will become 48 in that scenario. With fury and weapon+spd upgrade she will have atk 54 and 39spd - not too shabby imo.

How did the refinery change your plans for certain units?

[Reality]

BIG influences

Non- unique Sword Units - Wo Daos were always fun, but I think  the little boost to bulk (both for them and for refined enemies) has finally pushed them over the edge as a weapon of choice over Slaying Edge for stuff like the Red Fliers, and some of the fragile  red swords. 

Non Unique Armor Units - Slaying Lance and Slaying Axe can add to both bulk and Bonfire damage.

Dragons - Nothing really needs to be said. Lighting Breath is wonderful, and it's not like the others are weak either.

Small Influences

Anti Horse Weapons - Not very big game changers in the main arena, but I think they'll be picked up as a budget option for people in Arena Assault given that you only have the 1 Panic Ploy Seal. The Anti Armor Weapons on the other hand don't seem to have even that utility.

Staves - I think That the Dazzling Staff route  will be the go-to. It definitely makes using Quick Riposte a little less attractive for me.

Daggers - Smoke Dagger and Rogue Dagger are unexpectedly good at pushing units over the threshold of survival for one extra round of combat- Although the latter only works really well on theives with High SPD as slower thieves like Kagero's tend to get doubled, meaning that having an effective speed AND attack drop is neccesary, for the strategy to work.  Kind of requires a mixed movement type  or 3 horse team to take advantage of immediately though...

[XRay]

24 minutes ago, Prince Endriu said:

Was wondering which units have become much better in your opinion. And which 'obsolete' units you would now promote to 5* thanks to the refinery.

Imo Caeda has been a surprise - while still not fantastic, she actually kills much more and I will invest into her with time.

Another unit that regret sending home a couple of times is Peri. I got her as a free 5* with -atk which is 41. Absolutely horrible. Got a +atk-res 4* which I will promote and merge, her atk will become 48 in that scenario. With fury and weapon+spd upgrade she will have atk 54 and 39spd - not too shabby imo.

How did the refinery change your plans for certain units?

None of my plans really changed. I promoted Setsuna for Assassin's Bow and gave Gordin Guard Bow so I can find out how Guard Bow is sorted in the skill list.

[Gebby]

As a collective, it's probably tied between healers and dragons. Dragons now have very useful, unique effects like mass buffs and the ability to target the lowest defensive stat, and healers can use wrathful and dazzling staff without needing a rare unit and limited unit, respectively.

I'd personally say that specifically Michalis and Eldigan tie for the most beneficial boost. Eldigan has been overshadowed by units like Sigurd or CYL Roy, now he access to Fury 6 or a Fury and Life and Death combo. Michalis just wasn't really ever used, but now has a green Killer Wo Dao.

[Emeraldfox]

All of them

[SoulWeaver]

This plus the Gauntlet means I'm dusting off my Catria and letting her have another shot at proving she's worth the Blue slot on my Defense Team, though she'll have to do really well to swap out my Delthea and I already used my spare Michalis to give someone else Iote's Shield so she'll still get shot down by Bows. I'll also be giving Palla some alternative weaponry options once I manage to get a Killing Edge user to 5S for Killing Edge+.

34 minutes ago, Reality said:

The Anti Armor Weapons on the other hand don't seem to have even that utility.

That might depend on what you're using them for - I seem to recall @Ice Dragon mentioning that Tier 20 is swarming with Armor Emblem Teams, though I may be misremembering and/or things may be changing up after the Refinery started.

[GinRei]

21 minutes ago, Gebby said:

As a collective, it's probably tied between healers and dragons. Dragons now have very useful, unique effects like mass buffs and the ability to target the lowest defensive stat, and healers can use wrathful and dazzling staff without needing a rare unit and limited unit, respectively.

I'd personally say that specifically Michalis and Eldigan tie for the most beneficial boost. Eldigan has been overshadowed by units like Sigurd or CYL Roy, now he access to Fury 6 or a Fury and Life and Death combo. Michalis just wasn't really ever used, but now has a green Killer Wo Dao.

Not to mention the ability for Eldigan to basically be a mergeable Xander.  It's been a while since I checked, but if I recall the standard Xander used Fury in his A-slot (might be Distant Defense nowadays, but not sure as I haven't used him since August).  Eldigan gaining Fury on his weapon lets him use DC as his A-slot, making him not only mergeable but also worth more points in the arena just from the A-slot SP difference.  +1 HP (+4 after weapon upgrade), same attack, same speed, -3 DEF, +2 RES over Xander.  And if I understand BST in Arena correctly, a +SPD/-anything but RES IV would push him up to the next BST tier.  So, yeah, he went from 100% invalidated by Xander to surpassing Xander in all respects outside of super strict F2P.

Dragons were always good, but now they're fantastic.  There's no real denying that.

All that being said, I feel healers really did benefit the most.  They went from "only used in power leveling and maybe tempest trials" to actually being usable in all facets of the game.

[mampfoid]

I think Eliwood will get a big boost, I plan to make him 4* +10 with Blazing Durandal. Divine due is hard to collect though ... 

[Curanthir]

Healers by far. While technically I used the skill wrathful staff, even just the upgrade works and lets you make monsters like this now: Lucius

[Reality]

48 minutes ago, Gebby said:

I'd personally say that specifically Michalis and Eldigan tie for the most beneficial boost. Eldigan has been overshadowed by units like Sigurd or CYL Roy, now he access to Fury 6 or a Fury and Life and Death combo. Michalis just wasn't really ever used, but now has a green Killer Wo Dao.

Michalis is still kind of hurt by the fact that Minerva ALSO gets the upgraded Hautecarte- I - mean it's nice that everyone will have Michalis due to how recent his re-run was,, but he's still going to be outclassed as a Green Flier. 

Even worse is that Wo Dao HauteCarte doesn't really do much that Quick Riposte+Bonfire HauteCarte doesn't do already- If you check All VS Defender on Kagero Chart or another simulator, there is only like 6-7 units that the extra damage would matter for giving new kills.   It's a lot nicer on paper than it is in practice. Unless you really care about slightly higher non-lethal chip damage against Red units. 

Maybe it opens up a Moonbow Player Phase build option, but I kind of doubt it with his lack of doubling potential.

I have a mixed opinions on Eldigan As he's still kind of slow even with double fury AND  Cavalry Buffs (unless going mass goad>Hone)  I think that the thing that will really bring him back is actually resistance-   25 from double Fury and before a potential fortify cavalry is way more comfortable than Xander, especially given that the physical bulk difference isn't going to matter except in extreme cases. The old cooldown is nice for bonfire or Ignis of course.

[Prince Endriu]

2 minutes ago, Reality said:

Michalis is still kind of hurt by the fact that Minerva ALSO gets the upgraded Hautecarte- I - mean it's nice that everyone will have Michalis due to how recent his re-run was,, but he's still going to be outclassed as a Green Flier. 

Even worse is that Wo Dao HauteCarte doesn't really do much that Quick Riposte+Bonfire HauteCarte doesn't do already- If you check All VS Defender on Kagero Chart or another simulator, there is only like 6-7 units that the extra damage would matter for giving new kills.   It's a lot nicer on paper than it is in practice. Unless you really care about slightly higher non-lethal chip damage against Red units. 

Maybe it opens up a Moonbow Player Phase build option, but I kind of doubt it with his lack of doubling potential.

I have a mixed opinions on Eldigan As he's still kind of slow even with double fury AND  Cavalry Buffs (unless going mass goad>Hone)  I think that the thing that will really bring him back is actually resistance-   25 from double Fury and before a potential fortify cavalry is way more comfortable than Xander, especially given that the physical bulk difference isn't going to matter except in extreme cases. The old cooldown is nice for bonfire or Ignis of course.

Right, somehow overlooked minerva. Will have to think which upgrade to choose. Takes some time to get the dew ready

[Hilda]

in order?

1. Dragon users, the buff they got is too good
2. Staff users
3. Dagger users
4. Lance users with Berkuts Lance

Yes Berkuts Lance is a godsend for melee Lance users, no weapon gives you 11 RES lol

Legendarys:... not sure yet, prolly Eldigan or Michalis

[Ice Dragon]

40 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

That might depend on what you're using them for - I seem to recall @Ice Dragon mentioning that Tier 20 is swarming with Armor Emblem Teams, though I may be misremembering and/or things may be changing up after the Refinery started.

There are fewer full-armor teams now than there were before the update due to the fact that blessings are capable of making up the difference. It's also just the 744+ range because anything below that is still a mishmash of everything.

However, the problem with the upgraded armor-effective weapons is that armors rarely use field buffs other than Armor March, meaning there is nothing for the weapon to negate.

 

4 minutes ago, Reality said:

Michalis is still kind of hurt by the fact that Minerva ALSO gets the upgraded Hautecarte- I - mean it's nice that everyone will have Michalis due to how recent his re-run was,, but he's still going to be outclassed as a Green Flier. 

Even worse is that Wo Dao HauteCarte doesn't really do much that Quick Riposte+Bonfire HauteCarte doesn't do already- If you check All VS Defender on Kagero Chart or another simulator, there is only like 6-7 units that the extra damage would matter for giving new kills.   It's a lot nicer on paper than it is in practice. Unless you really care about slightly higher non-lethal chip damage against Red units. 

Maybe it opens up a Moonbow Player Phase build option, but I kind of doubt it with his lack of doubling potential.

Slow Hauteclere + Quick Riposte + Noontime is a thing.

[Gebby]

10 minutes ago, Reality said:

Michalis is still kind of hurt by the fact that Minerva ALSO gets the upgraded Hautecarte- I - mean it's nice that everyone will have Michalis due to how recent his re-run was,, but he's still going to be outclassed as a Green Flier. 

Even worse is that Wo Dao HauteCarte doesn't really do much that Quick Riposte+Bonfire HauteCarte doesn't do already- If you check All VS Defender on Kagero Chart or another simulator, there is only like 6-7 units that the extra damage would matter for giving new kills.   It's a lot nicer on paper than it is in practice. Unless you really care about slightly higher non-lethal chip damage against Red units. 

Maybe it opens up a Moonbow Player Phase build option, but I kind of doubt it with his lack of doubling potential.

I think the main draw of Michalis is, as you said, availability. Minerva is 5-star locked and, if memory serves, hasn't been on a banner in a while. Michalis, on the other hand, is a GHB and is currently available. And as mentioned above, Michalis can always use quick riposte and noontime.

[Othin]

Michalis doesn't have to go the Wo Dao route.

[Prince Endriu]

38 minutes ago, Othin said:

Michalis doesn't have to go the Wo Dao route.

Can he at all?

[Othin]

1 minute ago, Prince Endriu said:

Can he at all?

He can get a "Wo Dao" upgrade for his weapon, but it doesn't strike me as particularly desirable when he could get a larger stat boost instead.

[Prince Endriu]

14 minutes ago, Othin said:

He can get a "Wo Dao" upgrade for his weapon, but it doesn't strike me as particularly desirable when he could get a larger stat boost instead.

Now I get what u mean ☺

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, Othin said:

He can get a "Wo Dao" upgrade for his weapon, but it doesn't strike me as particularly desirable when he could get a larger stat boost instead.

There is no reason to ever use the +Atk refine because Wo Dao's effect far out-paces it. With the +Res refine, Michalis still has less Res than Zephiel, who has trouble tanking hits from green magic even with three stacks of Ward Armor up. Michalis's Spd is low enough that it's advantageous to not increase it so that he can charge up his special skill more quickly with Quick Riposte.

Which leaves the +Def refine. And Beruka does that build better with lower Spd, higher Def, higher HP, access to natures, and access to more merges.

 

Speaking of which, I should build a Beruka sometime.

[Alexmender]

I think it goes like this for normal weapons:

1. Dragons (Lightning breath OP)
2. Staff users (Troubadours in particular)
3. Daggers (The smoke effects are pretty nifty and Rogue Dagger seems pretty terrifying if used correctly)
4. Lancers (Berkut's Lance makes a good chunk of Lancers a lot more viable in mage land. +11 res is no joke)
5. The rest

In terms of Legendary users I think Seliph is the one who got the most out of it thanks to the awesome effect of Divine Tyrfing (although I don't know if this is enough to save Seliph from being mediocre) and following closely Eldigan, now he can run Fury 6 Desperation 3 Brash Assault 3 for some disgusting Ignis bombs or use DC+Fury 3 to be a better Xander thanks to the -1 cooldown of Mystletainn. 

I'm iffy on the Hauteclere upgrade, I don't use Michalis so I don't know how much it benefits him but in my case Minerva doesn't really need the Wo Dao effect, she already overkills all she needs to so that extra 10 damage will go to waste. Maybe if I change Luna for Moonbow but I don't know if it is worth it.

[Roflolxp54]

High investment units like manaketes and Lyn got a huge buff thanks to weapon refinery.

For manaketes, it's pretty much the Lightning Breath+ + Quick Riposte 3 meta for them. With refined Lightning Breath+ now targeting the weaker defensive stat when attacked by ranged enemies, the manaketes are going to be harder to kill safely, especially if the manaketes are camping on defensive tiles and with buffs attached.

For Lyn, her B-slot gets freed up again if she were to go with the upgrade that gives the Sol Katti the additional passive Brash Assault "4" effect, meaning she can run yet another B-passive like Wrath 3 (if the player has a Nephenee to spare and has given Lyn Moonbow or Glimmer) or Escape Route 3 (the more budget option that so happens to have the same SP cost as Wrath 3 and can be ridiculous with proper positioning, Lyn's default Galeforce if available, and a WoM3 refresh unit).

Eldigan also benefits as he can stack the Fury 3 passive effect of his Mystletainn with his default Fury 3 skill, which is pretty ridiculous. He can become a player phase glass cannon by running Desperation 3 and the Brash Assault 3 seal. He can also become more aggravating by taking advantage of Mystletainn's -1 special cooldown effect by running Moonbow or Glimmer to get easy extra damage off while in Brash Assault 3 range.

Eliwood essentially becomes something like a poor-man's Brave Roy; Eliwood is far easier to pull due to his 3-4* availability (unlike Brave Roy's 5* exclusivity) so IV hunting is feasible. However, Eliwood is offensively inferior to Brave Roy with the same offensive IVs so Eliwood's usefulness generally exists if the player has never gotten Brave Roy (at least one that has the same offensive IVs as Eliwood) but has the resources to invest into Eliwood or runs both Brave Roy and Eliwood in Assault modes.

Owl tome users can become more powerful thanks to the refined options boosting not only Mt but also a stat (if the player chooses not to go with the Atk option) though Owl tome users are still only dangerous while grouped up and running in-combat buff skills (ie. Bond skills and Spur skills).

[Ice Dragon]

7 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

For Lyn, her B-slot gets freed up again if she were to go with the upgrade that gives the Sol Katti the additional passive Brash Assault "4" effect, meaning she can run yet another B-passive like Wrath 3 (if the player has a Nephenee to spare and has given Lyn Moonbow or Glimmer) or Escape Route 3 (the more budget option that so happens to have the same SP cost as Wrath 3 and can be ridiculous with proper positioning, Lyn's default Galeforce if available, and a WoM3 refresh unit).

Lyn has had her B slot freed up since the release of the Brash Assault Sacred Seal. What this update did was not free up her B slot, but free up her Sacred Seal slot.

[Charmeleonbrah]

Remember: this is all a ruse to vastly increase the power of lolis.  Elise, Nowi, and Tiki all became S tier units overnight.