Does Mark Undermine Lyn, Eliwood, Hector, etc?

[shadowofchaos]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think Mark shows up in the very first chapter of Eliwood. 

 

Err.

They *don't exist*.

That scene *NEVER* plays.

[omegaxis1]

8 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Err.

They *don't exist*.

That scene *NEVER* plays.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not. Yes it does.

[shadowofchaos]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

I can't tell if you're being serious or not. Yes it does.

*facepalm* I can't believe someone is actually questioning my *YEARS* of hacking FE7 and that I actually have to make a video about this.

Here, let me show you with a video:

 

They *DO NOT* canonically exist after Lyn's story.

The main plot proceeds *WITH OR WITHOUT* them.

Notable times in the video:

0:05 (Select no tactician)

1:23 (Scene does not play)

1:37 (Select yes to tactician)

2:23 (Scene plays)

[omegaxis1]

One issue though. This by no means proves that Mark's involvement with Eliwood's story is non-canon. 

[shadowofchaos]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

One issue though. This by no means proves that Mark's involvement with Eliwood's story is non-canon. 

The fact that the main plot proceeds *with or without him* questions the canonicity of their existence after Lyn's story.

This is like pairings. The *SECOND* you introduce an option, the canonicity of it diminishes.

Edited December 7, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[omegaxis1]

Just now, shadowofchaos said:

The fact that the main plot proceeds *with or without him* questions the canonicity of their existence after Lyn's story.

Yes, but wouldn't you also agree that this would mean that the plot continuing in Awakening without or without recruiting the child units or even having thing mean that the child units are also non-canon? Except they are canon, especially given that Severa, Inigo, and Owain enter Fates. And Nah even gets mentioned. 

Optional doesn't mean non-canon.

[shadowofchaos]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yes, but wouldn't you also agree that this would mean that the plot continuing in Awakening without or without recruiting the child units or even having thing mean that the child units are also non-canon? Except they are canon, especially given that Severa, Inigo, and Owain enter Fates. And Nah even gets mentioned. 

Optional doesn't mean non-canon.

Except their very existence is rooted in things that are ambiguous. It is canon that they exist. But they cannot exist without introducing non-canon aspects such as who their parents are.

FE7's optional content has an ENTIRE narrative dedicated to the non-existence of the tactitican after Lyn's story. While Awakening's narrative is depending on conditional statements in its entirety. Starting from its very premise with Rufure/Robin.

The very fact that the main plot can proceed without the tactician and we can even question their canonicity ends this thread's question of the main lords being overshadowed by Mark/Marc. Who may or may not be Rufure/Robin or Mark/Marc/Morgan.

Edited December 7, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[omegaxis1]

Just now, shadowofchaos said:

Except their very existence is rooted in things that are ambiguous. It is canon that they exist. But they cannot exist without introducing non-canon aspects such as who their parents are.

Which is why the parenthood is kept vague. Appearances are changed as well. And only the mothers are ever mentioned. But the kids are canon, even though their existence and recruitment is entirely optional. 

So my point stands. Whether the case if optional or not, it doesn't prove its non-canon.

[shadowofchaos]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

So my point stands. Whether the case if optional or not, it doesn't prove its non-canon.

*shrug*

Very well.

However.

3 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

The very fact that the main plot can proceed without the tactician and we can even question their canonicity ends this thread's question of the main lords being overshadowed by Mark/Marc. Who may or may not be Rufure/Robin or Mark/Marc/Morgan.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

The very fact that the main plot can proceed without the tactician and we can even question their canonicity ends this thread's question of the main lords being overshadowed by Mark/Marc. Who may or may not be Rufure/Robin or Mark/Marc/Morgan.

And we shall never have that be explained. Well, unless they make a remake of Blazing Sword.

[shadowofchaos]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

And we shall never have that be explained. Well, unless they make a remake of Blazing Sword.

lol I don't think that'll happen for a long time.

And just one more thing to your point.

We agree that Mark existing is canon. Their participation however, is *JUST* like the kids in Awakening. Literally the same situation.

It cannot be determined if it was canon that they participated in the main plot.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

lol I don't think that'll happen for a long time.

And just one more thing to your point.

We agree that Mark existing is canon. Their participation however, is *JUST* like the kids in Awakening. Literally the same situation.

It cannot be determined if it was canon that they participated in the main plot.

I can agree to that much. It's optional, but at the very least, we know he exists. 

Well, given Fire Emblem lives by the multiverse theory, one version has Mark go, another doesn't. 

[shadowofchaos]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I can agree to that much. It's optional, but at the very least, we know he exists. 

Well, given Fire Emblem lives by the multiverse theory, one version has Mark go, another doesn't. 

I have to admit, I got a little passionate there.

You kind of implied I didn't know what I was talking about with the branching conditionals of the game.

I apologize if I went off on you.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, shadowofchaos said:

I have to admit, I got a little passionate there.

You kind of implied I didn't know what I was talking about with the branching conditionals of the game.

I apologize if I went off on you.

I'm sorry as well. I actually had no idea that Mark was optional in Eliwood's story, so I just went by how I remember Mark being there when I played the game. 

[Dandy Druid]

I forget Mark exists the majority of the time, as he's speechless, faceless (not the enemy), and not that important in the grand scheme of things. Like I said, he's forgetful. Arguably the most forgetful ally in FE7.

Yes, they could probably give more attention to Marcus and Oswin, but this was a problem for the GBA era as a whole. A lot of characters' agencies to the story were often stifled because they just used the same characters over and over again. FE6 was worse, with only Roy, Merlinus, and Guinevere in most of the cutscenes, taking away potential from the Eturian Generals, Larum/Elphin, Echidna, Marcus and Lilina (probably some others).

[Paper Jam]

The only way to play Eliwood's or Hector's tale without the Tactician is by skipping Lyn's tale. So the Tactician's presence in Eliwood's or Hector's tale is as canonical as Lyn's tale is.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Paper Jam

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd say, I agree on the notion that Mark didn't underminded the lords. Though, to be fair, it helps that Mark wasn't a full character, per se. Considering Mark was made as a agency for the player to immerse with the game, and for a game that was gonna be the first of the series for a whole new market, I think Mark was made more for that purpose than to be an actual character. It's kinda like what Advance Wars did. It's first GBA game also had a Mark, so to speak, and it was also the first released overseas, if I remember correctly. And that one didn't underminded Andy, Sami, or Max, either. Then again, AW's tactician/strategist had less of a prescence than Mark, I think. So yeah, I think both "characters" shared a purpose and thus, made that way.

As it is, I think it makes Mark the best that nails being a player avatar of the bunch, but that's an aside.

1 hour ago, Dandy Druid said:

I forget Mark exists the majority of the time, as he's speechless, faceless (not the enemy), and not that important in the grand scheme of things. Like I said, he's forgetful. Arguably the most forgetful ally in FE7.

Yes, they could probably give more attention to Marcus and Oswin, but this was a problem for the GBA era as a whole. A lot of characters' agencies to the story were often stifled because they just used the same characters over and over again. FE6 was worse, with only Roy, Merlinus, and Guinevere in most of the cutscenes, taking away potential from the Eturian Generals, Larum/Elphin, Echidna, Marcus and Lilina (probably some others).

To be fair, that was mostly because of Permadeath. Since almost anybody could die, the early games instead had NPC's the lords would speak to, and only them, unless a PC was just joining for the chapter (or would join later) and thus guaranteed to be there to have lines. Malledus, Nyna, Jagen (in Mystery's Book 2), Oifey (Genealogy's Gen 1), Lewyn (Genealogy's Gen 2), August, Dorias, etc. I think Merlinus was the first one to actually get the "only retreats if HP reaches 0" since he had the same roles as those NPC's, but was also a PC (and utility, being the guy in charge of Storage).

Edited December 7, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Zangetsu]

Mark has done absolutely nothing to undermine the lords & as far I'm concern enhance Lyn's story.

 

For that matter, I'm getting some serious critical backlash regarding how people feel about the avatars in general. People keep saying they're ruining the story in each game they're in, but never once have I felt that. With the exception of Kris (which I plan to read in the near future), I never saw how they did. Awakening's storyline was very generic & straightforward, so I don't see how Robin ruin any of that while Fate's story was just horrible & Corrin themselves were just bad avatars.

 

Another complain I keep hearing about is the shilling they keep getting. I don't see this with Robin other than when there was a time-skip & even then I don't see the problem. The Shepherds keep emerging victorious because of their tactician, why shouldn't someone give credit where credit is due? By that logic does this make Mark a mary sue (the most glorified criticism) as well? Robin's support shown he's not perfect as his criticism makes him out to be since he lost Virion in whatever strategy game they were playing. I won't argue for Corrin since the evidence is actually there.

Then there's complaint about their characterization. What characterization? You're suppose to define it & have interpret how you see fit for the avatars. Did people seriously forget this? If that what makes them a bad character then by that logic so is the protagonist for P4, SW KOTOR series, & Link.

[Dandy Druid]

On 12/6/2017 at 9:22 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

To be fair, that was mostly because of Permadeath. Since almost anybody could die, the early games instead had NPC's the lords would speak to, and only them, unless a PC was just joining for the chapter (or would join later) and thus guaranteed to be there to have lines. Malledus, Nyna, Jagen (in Mystery's Book 2), Oifey (Genealogy's Gen 1), Lewyn (Genealogy's Gen 2), August, Dorias, etc. I think Merlinus was the first one to actually get the "only retreats if HP reaches 0" since he had the same roles as those NPC's, but was also a PC (and utility, being the guy in charge of Storage).

Oh true. Perhaps in an Echoes maybe a select few will just retreat instead. Although I'm pretty sure Elphin at least does in the original, since IIRC he does show up randomly in some scenes late game. But I haven't played that far with him defeated in battle so who knows.

[Acacia Sgt]

15 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Oh true. Perhaps in an Echoes maybe a select few will just retreat instead. Although I'm pretty sure Elphin at least does in the original, since IIRC he does show up randomly in some scenes late game. But I haven't played that far with him defeated in battle so who knows.

Yeah, I think it also applies to Elphin. It probably helps that he's a Route Exclusive unit. Anyway, I mentioned Merlinus as the first since, well, he shows much earlier than Elphin. Hmm, now I wonder about Lalum...

[shadowofchaos]

On 12/6/2017 at 11:06 PM, Paper Jam said:

The only way to play Eliwood's or Hector's tale without the Tactician is by skipping Lyn's tale. So the Tactician's presence in Eliwood's or Hector's tale is as canonical as Lyn's tale is.

Well I think about it as Schrodinger's Tactician.

Simply because Lyn's tale happens in the case where you DON'T pick the tactician. However, it is also possible that they never meet Lyn again since they were elsewhere instead of the inn where Lowen ran into Mark. Which is why she is so adamant about looking for them in Heroes and in Warriors.

Simply because Lyn's tale occurs does not automatically confirm that Mark *WILL* appear in Eliwood's story. The default option is not always *THE* canonical option. We've argued about all of this in plenty of other forum sections before. The game code suggests (simply from the text appeal to the player to keep playing) that the design to include the tactician was to get the player invested into the story personally as the default option.

 

Regardless, the point of me bringing it up is that Mark does not, by far, do anything to undermine the lords as Rufure/Robin and Kris do.

Edited December 9, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[omegaxis1]

46 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Simply because Lyn's tale occurs does not automatically confirm that Mark *WILL* appear in Eliwood's story. The default option is not always *THE* canonical option. We've argued about all of this in plenty of other forum sections before. The game code suggests (simply from the text appeal to the player to keep playing) that the design to include the tactician was to get the player invested into the story personally as the default option.

To support your argument, I'd like to bring up the case of Radiant Dawn. First playthrough, you don't save everyone. Sephiran and Pelleas dies, Ike never learns of the truth about how Sephiran erased his memories, etc. Theem being saved is only attained through multiple playthroughs. In that case, can one say that their survival is in fact canon? 

Edited December 9, 2017 by omegaxis1

[Dandy Druid]

5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah, I think it also applies to Elphin. It probably helps that he's a Route Exclusive unit. Anyway, I mentioned Merlinus as the first since, well, he shows much earlier than Elphin. Hmm, now I wonder about Lalum...

She doesn't. Wasted potential tbh- they could've really grounded her character some more because her wacky side is really out there. More story involvement for her would really benefit her if she takes the situation seriously (which she is capable of doing). She's only in cutscenes in 2 chapters- with the rest of her lines being recruitment lines to the others. In Elphin's route, she just manages the augeries, but doesn't make any scenes even if she might be relevant. Elphin makes scenes in hers, but she doesn't.

But seriously, if Echoes: Binding Blade comes out they should implement more characters in the story, with Lalum being one of them. And I refuse to call her Larum.

Sorry I'm getting off topic here, but I just want to say that all of the GBA games (well, SS to a lesser extent) all could benefit from having more characters interact with the story more and not just a small core cast. For FE7, it certainly can be done with Marcus, Oswin, Pence, Louise, Raven, Priscilla(?- she's sorta popular now thanks to Heroes- and she can be relevant) Heath, etc. There will probably be a casual mode implemented, so I'm not worried about a select few missing out. The more story-oriented characters can get a "Wounded in _" instead of "Died in _" or just a screwed up ending like some of the SoV ones.

[Icelerate]

On 12/6/2017 at 9:45 PM, shadowofchaos said:

Mark is only ever canon in Lyn's story.

If you opted out of entering tactician information, the main story progresses as if Mark was never there.

Thanks for clearing this up. Also in Radiant Dawn, what should be considered canon?

Spoiler

Pelleas and Sephiran dying,  just Pelleas or they both survive? 

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Icelerate

[Icelerate]

On 12/8/2017 at 10:03 PM, omegaxis1 said:

To support your argument, I'd like to bring up the case of Radiant Dawn. First playthrough, you don't save everyone. Sephiran and Pelleas dies, Ike never learns of the truth about how Sephiran erased his memories, etc. Theem being saved is only attained through multiple playthroughs. In that case, can one say that their survival is in fact canon? 

Radiant Dawn spoilers. 

Spoiler

 

I don't think so because the first option is to kill Pelleas. Shouldn't the first option in a list of options be considered canon? Also, it's not like Micaiah knows that killing Pelleas won't stop the blood pact so it would make more sense for her to kill Pelleas because she's already willing to kill good people to save her country. 

Also, Sephiran surviving is one of the most poorly written things in FE10. The guy started two world wars in a bid to wipe out humanity. Compare that to Hitler starting one world war in order to wipe out a portion of humanity. Also, it doesn't make Micaiah's character look good when she already learned from the mistake of sparing Jarod. Also, I dislike the fact he lives for another 1200 years. Seriously why does that guy deserve to live for that long? Argh!!

I'd much rather spare Hetzel and Levail. Those two are far more decent and likeable characters. 

 

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Edited December 11, 2017 by Icelerate