Does Mark Undermine Lyn, Eliwood, Hector, etc?

[Icelerate]

There is a common criticism of avatars undermining characters (especially the main ones) in various FE games although Mark doesn't receive criticism. 

Do you think FE7's avatar takes away from the growth and development of the tactical capability of the FE7 lords along with Oswin and Marcus? 

I think in Lyn's story, Mark's role makes a lot of sense. Lyn is still a teenage girl who hasn't actually led anyone in battle nor does she have a working relationship with any units she commands other than Florina so it would be unrealistic to expect her to be a capable tactician. Also, Lyn doesn't have to grow into a leader because she leaves Caelin after her grandfather's death.  

In the main story, however, Eliwood is someone who is very educated and a leader in training. Not only that, but he has a talented and experienced advisor in Marcus. Furthermore, Roy is able to command a much bigger army, without the help of a tactician, despite being younger than FE7 Eliwood. Doesn't this make Eliwood look bad in comparison to his boy especially when Eliwood is probably the reason why Roy is a capable tactician?

[Dragoncat]

I think it has a lot to do with Mark not actually being playable? As far as Roy not needing a tactician, that's just because the devs didn't come up with the idea when FE6 was made, they came up with it for FE7.

[Jedi]

9 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

There is a common criticism of avatars undermining characters (especially the main ones) in various FE games although Mark doesn't receive criticism. 

Do you think FE7's avatar takes away from the growth and development of the tactical capability of the FE7 lords along with Oswin and Marcus? 

I think in Lyn's story, Mark's role makes a lot of sense. Lyn is still a teenage girl who hasn't actually led anyone in battle nor does she have a working relationship with any units she commands other than Florina so it would be unrealistic to expect her to be a capable tactician. Also, Lyn doesn't have to grow into a leader because she leaves Caelin after her grandfather's death.  

In the main story, however, Eliwood is someone who is very educated and a leader in training. Not only that, but he has a talented and experienced advisor in Marcus. Furthermore, Roy is able to command a much bigger army, without the help of a tactician, despite being younger than FE7 Eliwood. Doesn't this make Eliwood look bad in comparison to his boy especially when Eliwood is probably the reason why Roy is a capable tactician?

Mark isn't a central plot focus like Kris, Robin and Corrin are, so they're fine.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Jedi

[Slumber]

Mark works more as a faceless tactician than he does a proper Avatar.

Many, many games in the series have primary tacticians who never take the field and purely exist to help the main lords, and none of them ever feel like they ever "undermine" the lord.

Not until Awakening, at least, where not only is Robin the tactician, they're also an OP unit and the focus of the plot. Mark, meanwhile, barely exists.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

Though in my opinion, Robin is the best Avatar, Mark doesn't receive criticism precisely because they have no involvement in the story really. They're just... there. You can't criticize someone that you only see once or twice in the entire game. 

As for whether Mark makes Eliwood look back, I don't think so. Outside of battle, Eliwood has made many decisions, acting as a real leader. And he has made some of his own decisions on the battlefield. Mark being there as the tactician is just more help for tactics.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Not until Awakening, at least, where not only is Robin the tactician, they're also an OP unit and the focus of the plot. Mark, meanwhile, barely exists.

Actually, Kris heavily undermined Marth and really hurt his character. Robin at the very least didn't become so heavily relevant and was a real supporter, only until the third arc.

[Slumber]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, Kris heavily undermined Marth and really hurt his character. Robin at the very least didn't become so heavily relevant and was a real supporter, only until the third arc.

Kris undermined characters that weren't Marth more than he undermined Marth.

And his "undermining" is only compared to how the story played out in FE3.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Kris undermined characters that weren't Marth more than he undermined Marth.

And his "undermining" is only compared to how the story played out in FE3.

No, he undermined Marth just as much. Marth seems to think the absolute world for Kris, calling Kris his other half. 

That's already a big deal. The fact that so many things changed from FE3 to being so much about how amazing Kris is, it damages the storytelling and worldbuilding.

[Icelerate]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, he undermined Marth just as much. Marth seems to think the absolute world for Kris, calling Kris his other half. 

That's already a big deal. The fact that so many things changed from FE3 to being so much about how amazing Kris is, it damages the storytelling and worldbuilding.

Rewrite each FE story with a Kris in it. That would be a fun exercise. 

[Slumber]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, he undermined Marth just as much. Marth seems to think the absolute world for Kris, calling Kris his other half. 

That's already a big deal. The fact that so many things changed from FE3 to being so much about how amazing Kris is, it damages the storytelling and worldbuilding.

Play FE12 in a vacuum. Marth is still ALWAYS the main character, Kris never supersedes him in relevance, and you don't learn halfway through the game that Kris is the reason for Hardin and Medeus coming back to life again. Kris has nothing to really do with those things.

Yes, if you compare FE12 to FE3, the Avatar worship is obvious, but again, it's because there's something to compare it to. I imagine most people who played 12 before 3 thought Kris was just Marth's right hand man. They might have thought it was weird that Jeigan pretty much got the shaft now that Marth's all over this new guy, but I don't think anybody was going "Blech, who the hell's this new guy and what did he do with everyone else?".

Compare to Robin, who is literally the reason for everything in the plot from the moment he's introduced. Aversa and Validar throwing their support behind Gangrel? Robin. Walhart becoming social Darwinist Stalin? Grima(AKA Robin). The final arc is self-explanatory.

Hell, even from the moment Robin meets Chrom, Frederick and Lissa, it comes off as very player-servicey. At least Kris had the prologue chapters to establish himself as a knight to Marth before the plot kicked off and Marth started getting chummy. Chrom IMMEDIATELY trusts Robin, a complete stranger who they met on the side of the road, with his life, and with the lives of others. Frederick even tells him not to do this.

The finale of Awakening basically concludes with everybody telling Robin how much they love him and Chrom determines that he'll more or less doom a future generation because he would rather not live without Robin and kill Grima for good.

Marth never contemplates a choice that would completely invalidate the plot of the game for the sake of Kris. Well, he might, but nothing's coming to mind that's AS bad as the Chrom puts Grima to sleep/Robin kills Grima choice.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Slumber

[LucarioGamer812]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, he undermined Marth just as much. Marth seems to think the absolute world for Kris, calling Kris his other half. 

That's already a big deal. The fact that so many things changed from FE3 to being so much about how amazing Kris is, it damages the storytelling and worldbuilding.

Okay so my take on it is this was a foreshadowing to awakening(which it is) and Marth is only human, so Kris being able to help Marth in anyway shows that they are other halfs, and the way I look at it FE3 is how the history books recorded the events while FE12 is how it actually happened (same with the other remakes, tales of heros get warped and people get forgotten, we see this with how Lucina views Marth in warriors) and Kris even says that he shouldn't be known as Marth needs to be the figurehead hero in order to fix the world. Kris is called the Hero of Shadow, so he is literally Marth's shadow, assisting him from the shadows basically. I know it's all up to interpretation,  but still, now the sucking up to Kris I hate actually, Kris is just an above average but loyal knight. But from another view despite this being Marth's game it makes sense to focus on Kris beyond the whole other half thing, it's because Marth isn't the only person who matters in this world, he is the hero yes, but a hero who is known for relying on allies, everyone matters, and the writers just decided to use Kris as a way to show it, but enough of me rambling about Kris.

 

I think Lyn relies on Mark too much but she is inexperienced, Eliwood and Hector are still young but leaders, so they may ask for a tacticians advice and then lead their troops with that advice in mind, Marcus probably helped as well as I like the idea of most games having a war council and scouting information. I think Eliwood learned from this and tried to make Roy be op as possible so he made him be a tactician and a fighter (We know how this one turned out) to protect Elibe since didn't Eliwood have prophecies of the future in FE7, so maybe he was trying to prepare Roy to be the best warrior possible to defend against this.

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Play FE12 in a vacuum. Marth is still ALWAYS the main character, Kris never supersedes him in relevance, and you don't learn halfway through the game that Kris is the reason for Hardin and Medeus coming back to life again. Kris has nothing to really do with those things.

Yes, if you compare FE12 to FE3, the Avatar worship is obvious, but again, it's because there's something to compare it to. I imagine most people who played 12 before 3 thought Kris was just Marth's right hand man. They might have thought it was weird that Jeigan pretty much got the shaft now that Marth's all over this new guy, but I don't think anybody was going "Blech, who the hell's this new guy and what did he do with everyone else?".

Even without the FE3 comparison, there's still the fact that Kris gets relied on a little TOO much given the fact that he's a new guy really, and Marth already has experience with a war, back in FE11. Not only that, but Marth has learned and understood hardships and sacrifices, but in FE12, it somehow gets mentioned that Marth cannot handle losing comrades at all. 

4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Compare to Robin, who is literally the reason for everything in the plot from the moment he's introduced. Aversa and Validar throwing their support behind Gangrel? Robin. Walhart becoming social Darwinist Stalin? Grima(AKA Robin). The final arc is self-explanatory.

Hell, even from the moment Robin meets Chrom, Frederick and Lissa, it comes off as very player-servicey. At least Kris had the prologue chapters to establish himself as a knight to Marth before the plot kicked off and Marth started getting chummy. Chrom IMMEDIATELY trusts Robin, a complete stranger who they met on the side of the road, with his life, and with the lives of others. Frederick even tells him not to do this.

The finale of Awakening basically concludes with everybody telling Robin how much they love him and Chrom determines that he'll more or less doom a future generation because he would rather not live without Robin and kill Grima for good.

Marth never contemplates a choices that would completely invalidate the plot of the game for the sake of Kris.

Grima might have been the final enemy, but you could literally take Robin's connection with Grima away, and the plot can still work out. Robin being the vessel is just to make the reference to Julius and Loptyr thing. The plot is ultimately driven not by Robin. First arc, Robin has done nothing but just assist Chrom. It was all about Chrom having to deal with Gangrel and then the loss of his sister. Second arc, Robin still barely does anything, and at best there's a small connection being made here, but still the main issue is Wallhart, and Robin is the supporter. 

It's only the final arc that Robin gets into the spotlight, which I do agree has its flaws. 

[Slumber]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Even without the FE3 comparison, there's still the fact that Kris gets relied on a little TOO much given the fact that he's a new guy really, and Marth already has experience with a war, back in FE11. Not only that, but Marth has learned and understood hardships and sacrifices, but in FE12, it somehow gets mentioned that Marth cannot handle losing comrades at all. 

Grima might have been the final enemy, but you could literally take Robin's connection with Grima away, and the plot can still work out. Robin being the vessel is just to make the reference to Julius and Loptyr thing. The plot is ultimately driven not by Robin. First arc, Robin has done nothing but just assist Chrom. It was all about Chrom having to deal with Gangrel and then the loss of his sister. Second arc, Robin still barely does anything, and at best there's a small connection being made here, but still the main issue is Wallhart, and Robin is the supporter. 

It's only the final arc that Robin gets into the spotlight, which I do agree has its flaws. 

I will give you that Marth not being able to lose allies was poorly done, but that's not undermining Marth as a whole.

Yeah, you could remove Grima and parts of Awakening would still work. But that's not how Awakening is written. The Grimleal are in every major story arc, manipulating the major players. And it's ALL because of Robin/Grima. Chrom's struggles are all manufactured or exacerbated by the Grimleal, who always come back to Robin/Grima. Once the game flat out tells you that it's always been about Robin, shocker, Robin becomes the main character.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

I will give you that Marth not being able to lose allies was poorly done, but that's not undermining Marth as a whole.

There's also how whenever Marth shows concern for his comrades, its no longer calling all the comrades, but rather just Kris. But I could have forgiven that, but the fact the story ends where Kris is being shown to be just as big a hero as Marth and then refusing for Marth's sake, it's way too much pushing that Kris is some godsend. The only reason that happened is cause canonically, Marth is the hero that saved Archanea.

4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Yeah, you could remove Grima and parts of Awakening would still work. But that's not how Awakening is written. The Grimleal are in every major story arc, manipulating the major players. And it's ALL because of Robin/Grima. Chrom's struggles are all manufactured or exacerbated by the Grimleal, who always come back to Robin/Grima. Once the game flat out tells you that it's always been about Robin, shocker, Robin becomes the main character.

But that by no means that Robin undermined Chrom at all until the last arc. In both Gangrel and Wallhart's cases, Robin was the supporter, and Chrom was the one that truly led things. Just because everything goes to Robin does not mean that Robin was undermining things. Both Gangrel and Wallhart fought for their own reasons, and that only clashed with Chrom's, not Robin's. Robin was just the tactician that supported Chrom. So Robin didn't undermine Chrom there.

[Slumber]

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

There's also how whenever Marth shows concern for his comrades, its no longer calling all the comrades, but rather just Kris. But I could have forgiven that, but the fact the story ends where Kris is being shown to be just as big a hero as Marth and then refusing for Marth's sake, it's way too much pushing that Kris is some godsend. The only reason that happened is cause canonically, Marth is the hero that saved Archanea.

But that by no means that Robin undermined Chrom at all until the last arc. In both Gangrel and Wallhart's cases, Robin was the supporter, and Chrom was the one that truly led things. Just because everything goes to Robin does not mean that Robin was undermining things. Both Gangrel and Wallhart fought for their own reasons, and that only clashed with Chrom's, not Robin's. Robin was just the tactician that supported Chrom. So Robin didn't undermine Chrom there.

Robin's entire existence undermines Chrom, because ultimately nothing Chrom does matters at all for Chrom.

The Gangrel arc? Gangrel barely has the support of his people, and never would have had the power or resources to have instigated a war with Ylisse without the backing of the Grimleal. This comes to a head when Emmeryn jumps off the cliff and he loses the support of the rest of his people. ALL of this was a byproduct of Robin.

The Walhart arc is a similar deal. Chrom ultimately has no stake in this. He's ultimately fighting Walhart so he doesn't come to his homeland, because Walhart is basically culling the population of the continents to fight Grima. It comes right back to Grima.

Now, this wouldn't be a problem if there was some sort of payoff. If Chrom could somehow get justice for everything that Validar and Aversa put him and his country through. But there isn't. The ONE case where Chrom could get some satisfaction is a case where he can ONLY do it for Robin, at the cost of effectively dooming everyone 1000 years down the line.

The only way Chrom can ultimately avenge his sister, to protect his country, and not cause a civilization down the line to probably get wiped out, is to literally play cheerleader.

Yes, Marth saying that the only reason he got where he was was because of Kris is bullshit. But Marth is still the leader, he's still more or less the brains of the operation, he's the one who frees Hardin from the Darksphere, and he's the only one who can beat Medeus. Kris may have helped along the way(Due to how gameplay works), but storywise, Marth's still the one who walks away with the big accomplishments. Marth is STILL the hero, and Kris being there doesn't detract from this, even if Marth wants to think otherwise.

Chrom may beat Gangrel and Walhart in fights, but this amounts to nothing, because Gangrel and Walhart are NEVER the source of the problems in Awakening's story. The source of actual problems is something Chrom can't do shit about, only Robin.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Robin's entire existence undermines Chrom, because ultimately nothing Chrom does matters at all for Chrom.

The Gangrel arc? Gangrel barely has the support of his people, and never would have had the power or resources to have instigated a war with Ylisse without the backing of the Grimleal. This comes to a head when Emmeryn jumps off the cliff and he loses the support of the rest of his people. ALL of this was a byproduct of Robin.

The Walhart arc is a similar deal. Chrom ultimately has no stake in this. He's ultimately fighting Walhart so he doesn't come to his homeland, because Walhart is basically culling the population of the continents to fight Grima. It comes right back to Grima.

Now, this wouldn't be a problem if there was some sort of payoff. If Chrom could somehow get justice for everything that Validar and Aversa put him and his country through. But there isn't. The ONE case where Chrom could get some satisfaction is a case where he can ONLY do it for Robin, at the cost of effectively dooming everyone 1000 years down the line.

The only way Chrom can ultimately avenge his sister, to protect his country, and not cause a civilization down the line to probably get wiped out, is to literally play cheerleader.

Yes, Marth saying that the only reason he got where he was was because of Kris is bullshit. But Marth is still the leader, he's still more or less the brains of the operation, he's the one who frees Hardin from the Darksphere, and he's the only one who can beat Medeus. Kris may have helped along the way(Due to how gameplay works), but storywise, Marth's still the one who walks away with the big accomplishments. Marth is STILL the hero, and Kris being there doesn't detract from this, even if Marth wants to think otherwise.

Chrom may beat Gangrel and Walhart in fights, but this amounts to nothing, because Gangrel and Walhart are NEVER the source of the problems in Awakening's story. The source of actual problems is something Chrom can't do shit about.

That's actually incorrect. Gangrel ruled through fear. The Grimleal is just something he was paying lip service since that is the main religion in Plegia, but everyone feared Gangrel because he is quick to take heads off. However, Emmeryn was far more important in that role that she managed to instill hope to the others. But Gangrel was still able to have many that were still loyal to him. Gangrel even knew that Aversa was using him, hence why he kicked her out by the end of the war. Not only that, but Gangrel was also wanting to perform his own conquest of Ylisse for the sake of being able to match Wallhart's power since he knew that Wallhart would be launching an invasion there to Ylisse. 

Furthermore, Wallhart might have been intending to take out Grima, but everything he was doing was not intended for Grima, but his ideals of how strength is what is needed to bring peace. He even knew about the fact that Excellus was working with the Grimleal, but only let him scurry about because he found it amusing. But in that arc, it was a clash of Chrom upholding Emmeryn's ideals that clashed against Wallhart's. Grima was just something that had to be dealt with later, but he was never the main priority. 

Grima only really got the priority when the third arc came around, when it was about trying to handle Grima. Yes, I admit that Chrom shouldn't have gotten so upstaged by Robin here, however, Chrom did leave his mark here still. Throughout the entire story, he has been telling Robin that anything can change, and the future wasn't set in stone, and was the one that always spoke of the strength of bonds. These ideals is what actually inspired Robin and ultimately is why Robin was able to break free from Grima's control in the end, and potentially ending Grima once and for all.

[Light Strategist]

23 minutes ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

the way I look at it FE3 is how the history books recorded the events while FE12 is how it actually happened

I also feel this. It's possible that it's what they were aiming for but I have no evidence. Just mere speculation.


Anyway, I feel that Lyn relies on Mark due to her own inexperience. She never grew up in battle so she doesn't have much choice but to put her faith in the one who has some level of experience. True, she knows how to fight, but it's not as though she was required to do so before.

Eliwood's trust in Mark seems a little strange.

At least at the beginning because there's no real grounds to base the trust on. Lyn's word would have amounted to nothing if Mark was just manipulating her for whatever reason.

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Eliwood is someone who is very educated and a leader in training. Not only that, but he has a talented and experienced advisor in Marcus. Furthermore, Roy is able to command a much bigger army, without the help of a tactician, despite being younger than FE7 Eliwood. Doesn't this make Eliwood look bad in comparison to his boy especially when Eliwood is probably the reason why Roy is a capable tactician?

You do also have to remember that Roy didn't learn tactics from his father. He learned them in Ostia, where he was studying.

Hector's trust is easiest to place. Mark joined Eliwood who then met up with Hector. Hector's trust wasn't in Mark, but in his longtime friend, as a result, the trust grew from there.
 

Though, the only reason I'm bringing this up at all is really because they ask for Mark's opinion every once in a while. Honestly, its pretty easy to forget Mark's presence until someone says something so as far as story purpose goes... Mark's basically that insignificant genius that just knows what's going to need to happen to secure victory. You take Mark out and the only thing that changes is Lyn's story and the instances of someone saying something to them.

Everything's about Kris, Robin or Corrin though.

[Slumber]

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's actually incorrect. Gangrel ruled through fear. The Grimleal is just something he was paying lip service since that is the main religion in Plegia, but everyone feared Gangrel because he is quick to take heads off. However, Emmeryn was far more important in that role that she managed to instill hope to the others. But Gangrel was still able to have many that were still loyal to him. Gangrel even knew that Aversa was using him, hence why he kicked her out by the end of the war. Not only that, but Gangrel was also wanting to perform his own conquest of Ylisse for the sake of being able to match Wallhart's power since he knew that Wallhart would be launching an invasion there to Ylisse. 

Furthermore, Wallhart might have been intending to take out Grima, but everything he was doing was not intended for Grima, but his ideals of how strength is what is needed to bring peace. He even knew about the fact that Excellus was working with the Grimleal, but only let him scurry about because he found it amusing. But in that arc, it was a clash of Chrom upholding Emmeryn's ideals that clashed against Wallhart's. Grima was just something that had to be dealt with later, but he was never the main priority. 

Grima only really got the priority when the third arc came around, when it was about trying to handle Grima. Yes, I admit that Chrom shouldn't have gotten so upstaged by Robin here, however, Chrom did leave his mark here still. Throughout the entire story, he has been telling Robin that anything can change, and the future wasn't set in stone, and was the one that always spoke of the strength of bonds. These ideals is what actually inspired Robin and ultimately is why Robin was able to break free from Grima's control in the end, and potentially ending Grima once and for all.

Then I will budge on Gangrel, even though I think that it's probably pretty likely that Validar and Aversa planned on Gangrel screwing himself over, but I won't budge on Walhart.

Walhart always had his crazy might-makes-right philosophy, but the only reason he was mobilizing and acting on it was because he knew SOMETHING was going to be happening relatively soon. What we don't know is if he would have acted on this if it wasn't for Grima, but the game doesn't present it as anything else for what we get. Chrom's clash with Walhart ultimately means nothing to either of them, because it's another conflict brought upon by Grima and his followers. As much as Chrom and Walhart is treated as a clash of ideals, it doesn't go anywhere and it doesn't mean anything. Hell, Walhart doesn't even acknowledge Chrom as the one who beat him in his supports with Robin. He sees Robin as the one who beat him.

And again, I can't agree that Grima only really got priority in the last arc, when everything that came before it is what leads up to it. Even if it's not apparent for the whole game, Grima is always the focus, especially after Gangrel.

And again, these are just details that serve to make Chrom look not as relevant as Robin. The first and last chapter depict Chrom as somebody who's way too trusting of Robin right off the bat, and as somebody who has a hard time coming to terms that he might have to live in a world without Robin. That's the journey Chrom goes through in the game.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Slumber

[Chconroy]

I don't feel Mark gets the chance to undermine the main lords. I don't consider him to be an avatar in the same manner as Kris, Robin, or Corrin because his presence is incredibly underplayed. His greatest role is in Lyn's story, a role that doesn't contribute much and could be removed with little impact, and the option to not have Mark being present on repeat playthroughs of Eliwood's and Hector's story speak for themselves. Mark, while present, is never crucial to the situation. Lyn's tale is about her quest to meet her grandfather after meeting Sain and Kent, the main story is about finding Eliwood's father and stopping Nergal. Mark does all he needs to; gives advice in battle while the Lords lead the army.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Then I will budge on Gangrel, even though it's probably pretty likely that Validar and Aversa planned on Gangrel screwing himself over, but I won't budge on Walhart.

Walhart always had his crazy might-makes-right philosophy, but the only reason he was mobilizing and acting on it was because he knew SOMETHING was going to be happening relatively soon. What we don't know is if he would have acted on this if it wasn't for Grima, but the game doesn't present it as anything else for what we get. Chrom's clash with Walhart ultimately means nothing to either of them, because it's another conflict brought upon by Grima and his followers. As much as Chrom and Walhart is treated as a clash of ideals, it doesn't go anywhere and it ultimately doesn't mean anything. Hell, Walhart doesn't even acknowledge Chrom as the one who beat him in his supports with Robin. He sees Robin as the one who beat him.

And again, I can't agree that Grima only really got priority in the last arc, when everything that came before it is what leads up to it. Even if it's not apparent for the whole game, Grima is always the focus, especially after Gangrel.

And again, these are just plot details that serve to make Chrom look not as relevant as Robin. The first and last chapter depict Chrom as somebody who's way too trusting of Robin right off the bat, and as somebody who has a hard time coming to terms that he might have to live in a world without Robin. That's the journey Chrom ultimately goes through in the game.

Grima's threat was known in Walhart's arc, yes. But they still knew that that was a later thing to handle, because Wallhart was the priority. Also, there's no evidence suggesting that Walhart only started this conquest just cause of Grima. He does say that it's time for man to overtake the gods again, sure, but this kind of philosophy cannot happen on a whim just cause a demon dragon god is about to come. Walhart had to have this ambition for a very long time now. And this doesn't extend to just Grima though. Walhart clearly refers to also Naga and Mila. 

Walhart saying that Robin bested him is in regards to the tactics. Robin's tactics were used after all, and those tactics helped lead to victory. You could say that Mark's Tactics helped lead Lyn, Eliwood, and Hector to victory as well, so he could be considered to have bested the others. But that's just one small part. Chrom still did defeat Walhart and it was Chrom that got Walhart to join. 

Because when it comes down to it, Walhart always belittled Chrom's ideals of upholding Emmeryn's beliefs, thinking that Emmeryn was weak. Chrom had to struggle with the idea of keeping Emmeryn's legacy alive. Yes, Grima was a threat, but when Chrom faced Walhart, they weren't even talking about Grima, but their own personal philosophies.

A lot of Awakening's flaws comes from the fact that it's very rushed due to cramming three arcs into a single game. Chrom didn't fully trust Robin right off the bat, but he was not as cautious as Frederick. But when Robin risked his life to help them, that would earn Chrom's trust. Really, that's precisely how Kris and Katarina got into Marth's good side, because Legion had a village be attacked which Kris stopped, which helped Katarina be able to be closer to assassinating Marth. This kind of thing isn't impossible. Robin continues to show his trustworthiness by continuing to help them. Robin being easily trusted in the end comes from the fact that Robin ultimately gave no reason not to be trusted. 

[shadowofchaos]

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

There is a common criticism of avatars undermining characters (especially the main ones) in various FE games although Mark doesn't receive criticism. 

Do you think FE7's avatar takes away from the growth and development of the tactical capability of the FE7 lords along with Oswin and Marcus? 

I think in Lyn's story, Mark's role makes a lot of sense. Lyn is still a teenage girl who hasn't actually led anyone in battle nor does she have a working relationship with any units she commands other than Florina so it would be unrealistic to expect her to be a capable tactician. Also, Lyn doesn't have to grow into a leader because she leaves Caelin after her grandfather's death.  

In the main story, however, Eliwood is someone who is very educated and a leader in training. Not only that, but he has a talented and experienced advisor in Marcus. Furthermore, Roy is able to command a much bigger army, without the help of a tactician, despite being younger than FE7 Eliwood. Doesn't this make Eliwood look bad in comparison to his boy especially when Eliwood is probably the reason why Roy is a capable tactician?

Mark is only ever canon in Lyn's story.

If you opted out of entering tactician information, the main story progresses as if Mark was never there.

Edited December 7, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Grima's threat was known in Walhart's arc, yes. But they still knew that that was a later thing to handle, because Wallhart was the priority. Also, there's no evidence suggesting that Walhart only started this conquest just cause of Grima. He does say that it's time for man to overtake the gods again, sure, but this kind of philosophy cannot happen on a whim just cause a demon dragon god is about to come. Walhart had to have this ambition for a very long time now. And this doesn't extend to just Grima though. Walhart clearly refers to also Naga and Mila. 

Walhart saying that Robin bested him is in regards to the tactics. Robin's tactics were used after all, and those tactics helped lead to victory. You could say that Mark's Tactics helped lead Lyn, Eliwood, and Hector to victory as well, so he could be considered to have bested the others. But that's just one small part. Chrom still did defeat Walhart and it was Chrom that got Walhart to join. 

Because when it comes down to it, Walhart always belittled Chrom's ideals of upholding Emmeryn's beliefs, thinking that Emmeryn was weak. Chrom had to struggle with the idea of keeping Emmeryn's legacy alive. Yes, Grima was a threat, but when Chrom faced Walhart, they weren't even talking about Grima, but their own personal philosophies.

A lot of Awakening's flaws comes from the fact that it's very rushed due to cramming three arcs into a single game. Chrom didn't fully trust Robin right off the bat, but he was not as cautious as Frederick. But when Robin risked his life to help them, that would earn Chrom's trust. Really, that's precisely how Kris and Katarina got into Marth's good side, because Legion had a village be attacked which Kris stopped, which helped Katarina be able to be closer to assassinating Marth. This kind of thing isn't impossible. Robin continues to show his trustworthiness by continuing to help them. Robin being easily trusted in the end comes from the fact that Robin ultimately gave no reason not to be trusted. 

Look, I think at this point we're going to have to agree to disagree.

I think that the whole undertone of Grima through the whole game and especially from the Walhart arc onward do nothing but undermine Chrom, you don't. We're going to keep arguing in circles at this point.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Slumber said:

Look, I think at this point we're going to have to agree to disagree.

I think that the whole undertone of Grima and from the Walhart arc onward do nothing but undermine Chrom, you don't. We're going to keep arguing in circles at this point.

Yeah. This looks like it'll just keep looping around.

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

Mark is only ever canon in Lyn's story.

If you opted out of entering tactician information, the main story progresses as if Mark was never there.

Well, Mark does end up coming around in Eliwood's story, but nothing with as much impact. 

Really, I'm more questioning the case of the controversy on how Robin and Mark gets the implication that they are the same person from Smash Brethren 3.

Spoiler

And in Warriors, Lyn's History Mode has her saying that Robin looks just like the tactician. And the support says that Robin and the tactician have a lot in common. 

 

[shadowofchaos]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, Mark does end up coming around in Eliwood's story, but nothing with as much impact.

Elaborate?

They literally DO NOT exist.

Edited December 7, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[omegaxis1]

Just now, shadowofchaos said:

Elaborate?

I think Mark shows up in the very first chapter of Eliwood. 

Quote

Lowen:
“Lord Eliwood, one more thing. There is another in the village who has offered to help. A traveling tactician who was staying at the inn.”

Eliwood:
“A tactician?”

Lowen:
“Yes, milord. This is Mark.”

Eliwood:
“Mark!”

Lowen:
“Do you know this person, milord?”

Eliwood:
“Yes. I met Mark during the trouble in Caelin last year. A fantastic military advisor, if memory serves. If not for Mark, the marquess of Caelin and his granddaughter, Lyn, might not have survived Lundgren’s uprising. What brings you to Pherae, my friend? Ha! Still traveling about, honing your skills? Of course…”
A worthy pursuit. Let’s give thanks to providence for our chance reunion. We have need of your aid. Please lend us your skill.