A problem most, if not, all JRPGs seem to have

[Tuvy]

Damn you Final Fantasy Tactics!!!!!

[Etrurian emperor]

I can live with it if its a particularly though boss but Xenoblade 2 gave a good example of when it becomes absurd. 

The boss in the Mor Ardain arc barely even attacks you but once you depleted half its health your characters suddenly start going on about how strong it is. 

[Armagon]

22 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I can live with it if its a particularly though boss but Xenoblade 2 gave a good example of when it becomes absurd. 

The boss in the Mor Ardain arc barely even attacks you but once you depleted half its health your characters suddenly start going on about how strong it is. 

....which boss was this again? I don't remember any boss in Mor Ardain giving me trouble.

The ones that did gave me unfair trouble were (spoilers for Ch.5 and 7)

Spoiler

The turret-like boss at the end of Ch.5 because Spike Damage is back for unknown reasons (even if it's super rare) and Jin and Malos in Ch.7 because Malos has his own version of the Monado and uses Monado Cycolne (blowdown) Armor, Eater (which lowers Blade affinity) and Jail (Blade Shackle).

For the latter though, you just have to get Malos down to 50%. Then a cutscene plays and Rex gets Ascended Mode and the fight becomes a garuanteed win. 

 

[RedRob]

I heard that Japanese gamers are more patient in general, and thus more willing to grind. Would explain these hard bosses and those fetch quests where you have to get a rare drop that requires killing a lot of mobs.

[Etrurian emperor]

7 minutes ago, Armagon said:

....which boss was this again? I don't remember any boss in Mor Ardain giving me trouble.

The ones that did gave me unfair trouble were (spoilers for Ch.5 and 7)

  Hide contents

The turret-like boss at the end of Ch.5 because Spike Damage is back for unknown reasons (even if it's super rare) and Jin and Malos in Ch.7 because Malos has his own version of the Monado and uses Monado Cycolne (blowdown) Armor, Eater (which lowers Blade affinity) and Jail (Blade Shackle).

For the latter though, you just have to get Malos down to 50%. Then a cutscene plays and Rex gets Ascended Mode and the fight becomes a garuanteed win. 

 

Oh they didn't gave me any trouble. That's the point. The boss barely attacked me and it was a walk in the park. But then a cutscene triggered with the characters commenting about how strong the boss was and needing to be rescued. 

The boss I mean is 

Spoiler

The first giant Rossa

 

[Omegaprism]

4 hours ago, RedRob said:

I heard that Japanese gamers are more patient in general, and thus more willing to grind. Would explain these hard bosses and those fetch quests where you have to get a rare drop that requires killing a lot of mobs.

As a high school teacher in Japan I can safely say that no, they are not. Their tolerance for mobile game bullshit is much higher because as long as they can play it while waiting at the bus stop or on the train then it gives them an alternative to the living nightmare that is looking at or talking to each other. The most popular genres among young gamers (the biggest audience in this country due to its inability to shake off the outdated notion that videogames are in the same category as gambling, drugs, and prostitution) are actually FIFA and first-person shooters. While I'm sure there is some grinding aspect to modern FIFA, it has much more to do with managing statistics. Most Japanese gamers don't have time to sit at home and grind levels in a JRPG, and the customer base for this genre tends to be a fixed number year after year (somewhere in the region of 50,000 to 90,000 sales in the first two weeks of a release, and then a very sharp drop-off), indicating that the ones who do play JRPGs tend to be single adults with a stable source of income that get a little bit older each year.

In case you couldn't tell, I have downtime at work that I often use to do research that will almost never prove useful in meatspace. I now realize this might be a teachable moment, but not in the way I originally thought when I started typing. O_o;

Sorry for the brusque "actually..." I just pulled. I'm still posting this because then I won't feel like I wasted my time typing a post only to delete it (I do that a lot).

[RedRob]

21 minutes ago, Omegaprism said:

As a high school teacher in Japan I can safely say that no, they are not. Their tolerance for mobile game bullshit is much higher because as long as they can play it while waiting at the bus stop or on the train then it gives them an alternative to the living nightmare that is looking at or talking to each other. The most popular genres among young gamers (the biggest audience in this country due to its inability to shake off the outdated notion that videogames are in the same category as gambling, drugs, and prostitution) are actually FIFA and first-person shooters. While I'm sure there is some grinding aspect to modern FIFA, it has much more to do with managing statistics. Most Japanese gamers don't have time to sit at home and grind levels in a JRPG, and the customer base for this genre tends to be a fixed number year after year (somewhere in the region of 50,000 to 90,000 sales in the first two weeks of a release, and then a very sharp drop-off), indicating that the ones who do play JRPGs tend to be single adults with a stable source of income that get a little bit older each year.

In case you couldn't tell, I have downtime at work that I often use to do research that will almost never prove useful in meatspace. I now realize this might be a teachable moment, but not in the way I originally thought when I started typing. O_o;

Sorry for the brusque "actually..." I just pulled. I'm still posting this because then I won't feel like I wasted my time typing a post only to delete it (I do that a lot).

You're fine. In truth I got the idea from tvtropes from this passage.

"One theory that has been made to explain why JRPGs are popular in Japan but not in the West is the fact that JRPG require a lot of level grinding. Japanese gamers are perceived as being more patient than Western gamers and perceive the idea of level grinding in order to get some ultimate reward in the end. In the West most people do neither have that kind of patience nor the wanting for a reward, which is the reason why many Western gamers get frustrated with those games and give up on ever trying one, which results in low sales. This may be the same reason Monster Hunter is a best-selling series in Japan, but is a Cult Classic at best in the United States. On a similar vein, Random Drop and Rare Random Drop when it comes to items are seen as widely accepted in many Asian gaming circles since they don't mind potentially waiting a long time to finally get that Infinity +1 Sword. Western players greatly despise those game mechanics for being too reliant on luck.

• In addition, JRPGs are criticized by western gamers for their linearity, as they are used to open-world WRPGs centered around making decisions and having the plot continue based on those choices. In addition, WRPGs tend to have a high level of character customization. Inversely, Japanese gamers have a tough time getting into WRPGs because they tend to find the open-world gameplay too overwhelming (any choices made in most JRPGs, will have one correct answer with the others either not allowing you to proceed or triggering an alternate route or even a bad ending) and inhibits the writers' ability to tell a compelling story. In other words, the conflict seems to be that western gamers want to be the protagonists of their RPGs, whereas Japanese gamers would rather just follow along with the narrative.
• This has seemed to be turned on its head that both are successful in the west while flipping the common perceived stereotype, what with the Western-made "JRPG" Undertale and Japanese-made "WRPG" Dark Souls."

 

Either way, JRPGS do have a lot of grinding in them. WRPGs, not so much from what I know. Granted, I'm not sure there's that many to begin with.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

43 minutes ago, Omegaprism said:

Sorry for the brusque "actually..." I just pulled. I'm still posting this because then I won't feel like I wasted my time typing a post only to delete it (I do that a lot).

To be tbf, that was a good "actually..." lesson. I just hope that I can still relate to Japanese gamers in their supposed love for Psychical Media. The feel of a gameboy in your hands. Or a cool box in your living room that runs your games on your television. I know you can't plug a console in on the train and that mobile games are so much more accessible, but I feel like Japan's love of physical media has kept Nintendo and especially Sony from just making streaming devices that play games from the cloud rather than running discs or cartridges.

@Armagon I think "that one tedious boss" is a staple of most games, spanning across all genres. I hope you don't think this is a JRPG staple because you only play jrpgs. Because that would be silly.

Why, just today I finished an action game in which the final boss took me half a dozen attempts. She can slow down time putting you at significant risk of damage. You can defend yourself against this using a limited resource, so part of the fight is making sure you're stocked up on that resource which appears after you've taken out 25, 50, and 75% of her maximum health. However, one of the triggers for her slowing down time is when you successfully perform a counter attack. So dumb to punish the player for good reflexes right? But she'll only do it about 30% of the time on each counter. It's complete RNG! I finally beat her once I stopped countering and started relying on more repetitive, safe means of damage. Tedious boss design. I even scoured various guides to see if I was missing something but I wasn't.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Glennstavos

[Moblin Major General]

I never realized how many RPGs I play have anti frustration features until I picked up Final Fantasy 1+2: Dawn of Souls. In 2, I wandered into an area I had no idea had monsters far stronger than I was until it was too late, and in 1, I've been stun locked to death. By the way, I just got the Earth Crystal, so maybe I'm just venting because I just got through the early game hell.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

4 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

By the way, I just got the Earth Crystal, so maybe I'm just venting because I just got through the early game hell.

Ha! You still got the Ice Cave to get through. Early Game Hell doesn't end until you're past the cockatrices.

What was it HCBailly used to say...say no to cockatrices, they'll get you stoned.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Glennstavos

[Interdimensional Observer]

On the topic of tedious bosses, having just finished DQIV the final boss is slightly unfair. Seven phases. With one phase being able to regen 500 HP at will (this particular form has 2000 HP total, a good attack can deal 100, more with a critical, Sap, and or Oomph), and the final phase spamming Disruptive Wave nulling your Insulates and Kabuffs needed to survive 100+ single target physicals and 80+ target all breaths attacks. This said, I did it beat it on my blind first try, you can bring your entire team of 8 and swap them freely during the fight, and its the final battle, so its mostly fair.

Dhoulmagus in DQVIII is much more truly unfair, either you farm Yggdrasil Dew (really feasible only in the 3DS port), or you grind Angelo to the point he learns Multiheal, that makes things massively more manageable. It's such a pity to go all the way through the Dark Ruins only to die to this monstrosity. But I like Dhoulmagus, so I don't mind him being a pain.

Baten Kaitos Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean's

Spoiler

Imperial Trio Round 2. Round 1 was bad enough, Round 2 is the same but now Giacomo has healing and upon winning the fight you have to do the entire thing again! Lose and you have fight the first bout again and rewatch all the plot events between the two duels.

is the definition of tedium I think.

 

For Bravely Second, I'd call Aimee the worst boss fight in that game. She comes just on the cusp of being too early for you to have many good options for fighting her. And only more HP makes Aimee bearable, since Defaulting against her only makes her hurt you even more.

[Magical CC]

On 12/9/2017 at 12:30 PM, Jingle Jangle said:

My general problems with jrpgs is that it comes for one of the most conservative genres in the game industry. Comparing the breakthroughs in the genre to others the quite different. Not to say I dislike them, but I recognize the shortcomings.

You complain about jrpg!? Have you ever play any racing/sport/fps/rts/diablo clones/Baldurgate clones/Football Manager/Pokemon games? Final Fantasy series changed much more than CoD or BF have ever changed! 

Quote

 

I can kind of see JRPGs getting the idea that length of battle = difficulty, when it's really just tedious, ala Yiazmat, FF12. Final bosses in SMT/Persona games I've also heard can get very lengthy.

 

SMT boss is all about random one hit kill.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Magical CC

[Interdimensional Observer]

23 minutes ago, Magical CC said:

SMT boss is all about random one hit kill.

If you're referring to Hama and Mudo, well Tetraja is admittedly very important in IV. Though I rarely needed it in Nocturne and practically never did in the original, or Soul Hackers. If you're referring to pure damage, well thats only true some times, Matador landing a lucky critical, Beelzebub doing double Megidoloan in IV, but I think that is true of many RPGs where if they pick the deadliest attack combo over and over you're dead for sure. 

Which reminds me of Memory Lane in DQVIII 3DS version- every boss has like a 20% chance of critting you and deals about 700 per critical, AKA an OHKO and all bosses get at least 2 turns. Hard, but cheaply so.

And then we have Djinn Storm in Golden Sun- who thought that was a good idea? Crippling one or two Djinn on all characters is okay, but everyone's all at once? No. Just no.

[Jingle Jangle]

53 minutes ago, Magical CC said:

You complain about jrpg!? Have you ever play any racing/sport/fps/rts/diablo clones/Baldurgate clones/Football Manager/Pokemon games? Final Fantasy series changed much more than CoD or BF have ever changed! 

 

My point being is that compared to the other genres that you have mentioned, jrpgs have been around longer, yet with some exceptions they still follow the same beats after being around for more than 25 years.

[Slumber]

33 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

My point being is that compared to the other genres that you have mentioned, jrpgs have been around longer, yet with some exceptions they still follow the same beats after being around for more than 25 years.

Well what do you expect? 

FPS games have been around for 25 years yet every single one, even to this day, is about shooting stuff. It's in the name. The controls, mechanics, tones, visuals and gimmicks around shooting have changed, but the games at their cores are still about the same things they've been about since Wolfenstein. 

Racing games have been about beating time trials or beating other racers since... Like, 1492, or whenever the first racing game came out. It's been a long time. I might be mixing up the year the first racing game came out and some other historical event, but it's close. 

I could applied the same kind of logic to any other genre. 

Genres are genres for a reason. JRPGs are going to be defined how much like the genre they are. Like shooters, they've maintained a core "feel", but change in tone, style, visuals, controls and combat gimmicks. If they stray too far, they end up bleeding into other genres. People to this day still have trouble defining the Souls games and games like Dragon's Dogma, because they're Japanese RPGs, but they model themselves far more after Western-style RPGs. Some people say it's because of the action elements, but Final Fantasy 15 is an action game, that is still firmly classified as a "JRPG", and this extends to games like the Tales games and Star Ocean franchises, which have game play that relies far more on active player-input than traditional JRPGs. If you want to REALLY have your head explode, Vagrant Story. That game has way more in common with Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma in terms of combat, presentation, style and tone than most other JRPGs, yet it's firmly in the "JRPG" genre. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Slumber

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

On 1/3/2018 at 10:30 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

If you're referring to Hama and Mudo, well Tetraja is admittedly very important in IV. Though I rarely needed it in Nocturne and practically never did in the original, or Soul Hackers. If you're referring to pure damage, well thats only true some times, Matador landing a lucky critical, Beelzebub doing double Megidoloan in IV, but I think that is true of many RPGs where if they pick the deadliest attack combo over and over you're dead for sure. 

Which reminds me of Memory Lane in DQVIII 3DS version- every boss has like a 20% chance of critting you and deals about 700 per critical, AKA an OHKO and all bosses get at least 2 turns. Hard, but cheaply so.

And then we have Djinn Storm in Golden Sun- who thought that was a good idea? Crippling one or two Djinn on all characters is okay, but everyone's all at once? No. Just no.

I dont even remember the vast majority of boss in smt since usually i ended up abusing whatever the game have to create superdemons(basically Mitama spam for 90% of the series) and go from there

 

Soul Hackers is particularly notable since after realizing how much of a shitshow the legendary tower that is pretty much 2 dungeon at once was i went to the monkey dungeon for money, created Megidolaon bot and proceed to click Megidolaon to watch things die

 

Funny enough MA from Strange Journey was considered one of the easiest smt final boss iirc since you can reflect cheese it and its one of the most guilty of instant kill. Its physical move can insta the protagonist if it hits him several time and one of its move is an unresisted instant kill iirc. It also have 2 elemental instant kill that it constantly uses which forces the player to use the dragon ring or something

Although far as i know the hardest boss in sj was the boss of Grus