Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist

[BANRYU]

Yeah, as far as I'm aware, Effie is the only unit of note that Lancebreaker allows Rein to kill when he wouldn't already and that's basically just because of Wary Fighter. Which.... is useful, granted, but hella niche. I've never really understood the prominence of lancebreaker on him lol. He has so little importance to his B-slot that I'd even just run stuff like Pass on him (though granted WoM is probably better to go with lol)

But then again, it's Rein, so he might as well use the slot to single out specific units who would ruin his fun like Effie or Sigurd I suppose lol. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Lancebreaker allows Reinhardt to ORKO overstatted lance-users such with high HP/res seen in tempest trials, GHBs, etc. Of all the enemy types Reinhardt can equip a breaker for, lance-users are by far the most likely to survive his attacks, as ranged units have less bulk generally and reds are, well, reds. It also lets him take a hit from lance-users; he'll often tank reds anyway even if they double so he needs the help less there.

If you're making a build strictly for arena offence than Lancebreaker's nothing special because only highly rare and specialised builds (Jagens or Effies with buffs/forts in place, etc.), but then again most other B skills are highly situational for him. If you're planning to use him in other game modes then Lancebreaker rockets up in use.

[Ice Dragon]

On 1/30/2018 at 3:30 PM, BANRYU said:

Yeah, as far as I'm aware, Effie is the only unit of note that Lancebreaker allows Rein to kill when he wouldn't already and that's basically just because of Wary Fighter. Which.... is useful, granted, but hella niche. I've never really understood the prominence of lancebreaker on him lol. He has so little importance to his B-slot that I'd even just run stuff like Pass on him (though granted WoM is probably better to go with lol)

But then again, it's Rein, so he might as well use the slot to single out specific units who would ruin his fun like Effie or Sigurd I suppose lol. 

Originally, Lancebreaker was used to get through Wary Fighter because that was a common skill to use on Effie, and Effie was a reasonably common character to see in the Arena.

Nowadays, we have Berkut's Lance+ [Res], which allows a lot of lance users to withstand two hits from Reinhardt.

[TheNiddo]

There's also running into the occasional flier team as well. Some of those blues have high res, and then they have flier buffs on top of that. I know some people on GameFAQs did some number crunching back in the day and there were a few blue fliers where lancebreaker was needed to land the kill.

Think it was before Quickened Pulse existed, but there ya go. 

---

For his B Passive, I did run Pass for a long time. Its not a horrible choice on him, certainly works for a trolly option in arena defence where people will quit if they lose one unit. Not being able to wall out Reinhardt can be lethal to a unit farther back. 

[Shoblongoo]

On 1/30/2018 at 4:30 PM, BANRYU said:

Yeah, as far as I'm aware, Effie is the only unit of note that Lancebreaker allows Rein to kill when he wouldn't already and that's basically just because of Wary Fighter. Which.... is useful, granted, but hella niche. I've never really understood the prominence of lancebreaker on him lol. He has so little importance to his B-slot that I'd even just run stuff like Pass on him (though granted WoM is probably better to go with lol)

But then again, it's Rein, so he might as well use the slot to single out specific units who would ruin his fun like Effie or Sigurd I suppose lol. 

Its not just about the kills--its a survivability skill.

~Breaker lets him end player phase in range of an enemy that would otherwise double him and survive the enemy phase. Which is good when you need Reinhardt to grab a kill that he otherwise can't grab, without parking himself in range of another unit that doubles and one-rounds him. 

i.e. Lancebreaker means if you need Reinhardt to one-shot Ayra and there's a brave lucina or a fjorm right behind her--just outside his attack range--and you can't spare a unit to drawback or reposition. Reindhardt himself can grab the kill, take a hit, and then bounce. 

Like you said--the B slot isn't hugely important to him. So that's damn near the best utility he can get out of it.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Its not just about the kills--its a survivability skill.

Berkut's Lance+ [Res] is a thing, and it's a giant middle finger to any Reinhardt that doesn't have Lancebreaker.

+0 Florina [=] (Berkut's Lance+ [Res]) with no other skills and no buffs has 45 Res with the thing and 47 HP to burn through.

+0 Florina [=] (Berkut's Lance+ [Res], Distant Def 3, Guard 3, Quick Riposte 3) has 51 Res and cannot be hit by Moonbow.

(I'm using Florina as an example because she has screwed me over in the past with my dragon team.)

 

With the right build, it's even possible to make it impossible for Reinhardt to damage her at all:

+0 Florina [=] (Berkut's Lance+ [Res], Glacies, Warding Stance 3 / Distant Def 3, Guard 3, Distant Def 3) +0/0/0/0 has 57 Res.

+10 Florina [+Res] (Berkut's Lance+ [Res], Glacies, Warding Stance 3 / Distant Def 3, Guard 3, Distant Def 3) +3/3/3/3 (from dual Rallies) has 67 Res (and 51 HP).

+10 Reinhardt [+Atk] (Dire Thunder, Moonbow, Death Blow 3, Lancebreaker 3, Attack +3) +6/6 Summoner-S Ally-S has 67 Atk, meaning the only way to even damage Florina at all is to have Goad/Spur/Drive buffs or an Earth Blessing.

But at the very least, Lancebreaker lets Reinhardt deal with the less well built ones (the ones that don't have Guard and aren't stacking Res up the wazoo).

[Ae†her]

I just had an idea now that Blarserpent+ is technically an option for Reinhardt.

What do you think of (+Atk/-Spd IV) Blarserpent+ (Def+) + Luna/Iceberg + Close Counter + Quick Riposte 3 + Close Def 3 Seal
Stats end up looking like this:

Spoiler

 

[BANRYU]

4 hours ago, Ae†her said:

I just had an idea now that Blarserpent+ is technically an option for Reinhardt.

What do you think of (+Atk/-Spd IV) Blarserpent+ (Def+) + Luna/Iceberg + Close Counter + Quick Riposte 3 + Close Def 3 Seal
Stats end up looking like this:

  Hide contents

 

I feel like both defenses should at least hit 30+ before he can be considered a particularly great user of it :0 I'm not very sold, personally. 

[Ae†her]

1 minute ago, BANRYU said:

I feel like both defenses should at least hit 30+ before he can be considered a particularly great user of it :0 I'm not very sold, personally. 

It'll take 53 Atk for a blue and colorless physical to kill him ( assuming said blue physical unit can double Reinhardt ) 54 Atk for blue and colorless magical units (if they double) to kill Reinhardt. Reds of course would take a lot more Atk of 64 for physical units and 65 Atk for red magical units. Also he shouldn't be put near greens.

 

[eclipse]

54 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

It'll take 53 Atk for a blue and colorless physical to kill him ( assuming said blue physical unit can double Reinhardt ) 54 Atk for blue and colorless magical units (if they double) to kill Reinhardt. Reds of course would take a lot more Atk of 64 for physical units and 65 Atk for red magical units. Also he shouldn't be put near greens.

 

How did you reach these numbers?  I came out with 47 for lancers if they double (or circumvent the problem entirely and use a Brave Lance).

Even then, it's possible for certain bow users to punch through that.

[Ae†her]

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

How did you reach these numbers?  I came out with 47 for lancers if they double (or circumvent the problem entirely and use a Brave Lance).

Even then, it's possible for certain bow users to punch through that.

It's when he's under attack and gains +6 Def/Res from Blarserpent and Close Defense 3 Seal. Also yeah 53 Atk is not hard to reach, but I like the idea of it for dealing with tanky Red Swords, and for being trippy in Arena Defense.

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

It's when he's under attack and gains +6 Def/Res from Blarserpent and Close Defense 3 Seal. Also yeah 53 Atk is not hard to reach, but I like the idea of it for dealing with tanky Red Swords, and for being trippy in Arena Defense.

Oh, missed the seal.

Can't think of too many swordies that would run into him in the first place.  I'd breathe a silent sigh of relief if I saw him in the arena, because I let him initiate on me, thus negating mostly everything that makes this build tanky.

Valentine's Lyn, on the other hand. . .

[Ae†her]

7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Oh, missed the seal.

Can't think of too many swordies that would run into him in the first place.  I'd breathe a silent sigh of relief if I saw him in the arena, because I let him initiate on me, thus negating mostly everything that makes this build tanky.

Valentine's Lyn, on the other hand. . .

True, no one would be dumb enough to initiate on Reinhardt with lets say a Brave Roy or a Camus, but I think building an Arena Defense team comes down to more than just the power of the units themselves. Sometimes there are other threats on the team that distract away from certain minor threats, threats that later ambush you when your cornered or your units are weakened. I think that's how a lot of Defense Wins are obtained actually, not because your units are that strong, but because the combination of them are surprising, and compliment each other some times.

That being said, the Reinhardt build is mainly for offering utility in the Arena, but it's probably not that different or better than Blarblade+ Close Counter. I thought I would just pitch the idea at the very least.

[eclipse]

21 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

True, no one would be dumb enough to initiate on Reinhardt with lets say a Brave Roy or a Camus, but I think building an Arena Defense team comes down to more than just the power of the units themselves. Sometimes there are other threats on the team that distract away from certain minor threats, threats that later ambush you when your cornered or your units are weakened. I think that's how a lot of Defense Wins are obtained actually, not because your units are that strong, but because the combination of them are surprising, and compliment each other some times.

That being said, the Reinhardt build is mainly for offering utility in the Arena, but it's probably not that different or better than Blarblade+ Close Counter. I thought I would just pitch the idea at the very least.

It's a bit more complicated than that.

Unless you have Horse Emblem, Rein can easily outrun everyone else.  Thus, I bait him, leaving him far away from his teammates.  After that, I deal with the rest of them.

It's also why I don't initiate on him - I can't reach him!

-serpent isn't a bad tome, but I think it's better on someone who isn't so prone to running off on his own.  Though Rein has the stats, the AI probably won't use him correctly.  If anything, this would be bait for someone's arena offense team.

Edited March 23, 2018 by eclipse

[XRay]

6 hours ago, Ae†her said:

I just had an idea now that Blarserpent+ is technically an option for Reinhardt.

What do you think of (+Atk/-Spd IV) Blarserpent+ (Def+) + Luna/Iceberg + Close Counter + Quick Riposte 3 + Close Def 3 Seal
Stats end up looking like this:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

2 hours ago, BANRYU said:

I feel like both defenses should at least hit 30+ before he can be considered a particularly great user of it :0 I'm not very sold, personally. 

I agree with @BANRYU. Reinhardt does not have the bulk nor Speed to be a mix tank. Nephenee, Klein, and Linde will outright kill Reinhardt with a simple +Atk, Special, and/or A slot adjustment.

Blárserpent-Close Counter leaves Reinhardt as soft red check, which is not very useful in my opinion. Soliel [Wo Dao [Spd], Moonbow, Life and Death, Desperation, Heavy Blade] can take out Reinhardt, and Mia with a similar set with +Atk and Resolute Blade can end Reinhardt as well. If you switch out +Atk for +Def, Reinhardt can survive them, but he will be in single digit HP. Celica with her Resistance crushing Luna-Heavy Blade combo will also end Reinhardt unless he runs Distant Def.

I would leave Sword tanking to blue units with 35+ Def, as Reinhardt's 27 Def just is not enough.

Edited March 23, 2018 by XRay

[BANRYU]

2 hours ago, Ae†her said:

It'll take 53 Atk for a blue and colorless physical to kill him ( assuming said blue physical unit can double Reinhardt ) 54 Atk for blue and colorless magical units (if they double) to kill Reinhardt. Reds of course would take a lot more Atk of 64 for physical units and 65 Atk for red magical units. Also he shouldn't be put near greens.

Even still, 53 isn't that hard to hit if we're talking legendary lancers like Ephraim or Hardin, and with buffs it's even easier. For mages, especially blade mages, it's even even easier.

That wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't so easy TO double him owing to his crappy speed :0 I think it's close, but no cigar. 

[Ae†her]

41 minutes ago, XRay said:

I agree with @BANRYU. Reinhardt does not have the bulk nor Speed to be a mix tank. Nephenee, Klein, and Linde will outright kill Reinhardt with a simple +Atk, Special, and/or A slot adjustment.

Blárserpent-Close Counter leaves Reinhardt as soft red check, which is not very useful in my opinion. Soliel [Wo Dao [Spd], Moonbow, Life and Death, Desperation, Heavy Blade] can take out Reinhardt, and Mia with a similar set with +Atk and Resolute Blade can end Reinhardt as well. If you switch out +Atk for +Def, Reinhardt can survive them, but he will be in single digit HP. Celica with her Resistance crushing Luna-Heavy Blade combo will also end Reinhardt unless he runs Distant Def.

I would leave Sword tanking to blue units with 35+ Def, as Reinhardt's 27 Def just is not enough.

Fair enough. Figured it would be too niche, and ineffective due to Reinhardts mediocre defenses. I like the possibility of one day running Serpent with CD seal and QR 3 on a mage though, hopefully that'll be possible one day.

Even still, 53 isn't that hard to hit if we're talking legendary lancers like Ephraim or Hardin, and with buffs it's even easier. For mages, especially blade mages, it's even even easier.

That wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't so easy TO double him owing to his crappy speed :0 I think it's close, but no cigar. 

Yeah, I'm pushing it too hard for a 27 and 25 mage with mage-like HP.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Ae†her

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Ae†her said:

Fair enough. Figured it would be too niche, and ineffective due to Reinhardts mediocre defenses. I like the possibility of one day running Serpent with CD seal and QR 3 on a mage though, hopefully that'll be possible one day.

There is TOD!Henry, LA!Lyn, WE!Tharja, although they are all armor units.

I will put Blárserpent-Triangle Adept down as an Arena Assault build against red mages if people got extra fodder and want to spice up their second or third Reinhardt.

[Ae†her]

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

There is TOD!Henry, LA!Lyn, WE!Tharja, although they are all armor units.

I will put Blárserpent-Triangle Adept down as an Arena Assault build against red mages if people got extra fodder and want to spice up their second or third Reinhardt.

Henry's attack is too trash imo to do anything, same with LA!Lyn plus her defenses are not that much higher, and she has less HP than Reinman, but WE!Tharja would be amazing with it, same with a merged Sophia too, but we're still waiting on Raudrserpent for that. I shouldn't be complaining though since they just released the Serpent tome.

[XRay]

8 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

Henry's attack is too trash imo to do anything, same with LA!Lyn plus her defenses are not that much higher, and she has less HP than Reinman, but WE!Tharja would be amazing with it, same with a merged Sophia too, but we're still waiting on Raudrserpent for that. I shouldn't be complaining though since they just released the Serpent tome.

TOD!Henry is green and got 33 neutral Atk. LA!Lyn got much, much higher Speed, can be run in Ward Armor teams, and got default access to Blue Gift that shuts down enemy buffs. Both also got access to Vengeful Fighter, which gives them 50%+ HP threshold of activation instead of the usual 70%+ HP threshold from Quick Riposte.

Edited March 23, 2018 by XRay

[Ae†her]

Just now, XRay said:

TOD!Henry is green and got 33 neutral Atk. LA!Lyn got much, much higher Speed and can be run in Ward Armor teams. Both also got access to Vengeful Fighter, which gives them 50%+ HP threshold of activation instead of the usual 70%+ HP threshold from Quick Riposte.

Ah I knew I misread something, that Henry is amazing yeah it could work for him as well. LA!Lyn can prevent doubles too yes, but I think she'll need a +Atk IV to get somewhere near decent Atk to use this set well.

[Roflolxp54]

Welp, Lull Atk/Res is a thing. How does it compare against Lancebreaker as a B-slot passive?

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Welp, Lull Atk/Res is a thing. How does it compare against Lancebreaker as a B-slot passive?

Lull Atk/Res is a good all round skill. I only recommend Lancebreaker if there is a specific enemy you need to kill, such as if you see a lot of Fjorms super tanking your Aether Raids defense team.

Edited January 15, 2020 by XRay