This is just stupid.

[ThunderKeybladeMaster]

Seriously, Sakura being the final boss of Conquest is just very fucking lame. (I don't own this image, don't sue me.)

[Ertrick36]

Sad reacts only?

And you're definitely gonna be sued.  I'm contacting Disnep lawyers as we speak.

Spoiler

I'd much rather kill off Sakura, Hana, and Subaki than Takumi, Oboro, and Hinata.

I'd feel bad for Sakura... but it'd be much more worth it for Takumeme and 'Boro to survive than if we were left with Hana and Subaki, imo.

 

[Florete]

Why is she apologizing to Takumi?

[Sunwoo]

Sakura being the final boss of Conquest would actually have been more interesting than Takumi being the final boss, if only for a narrative/perspective shift. Throughout Conquest, Takumi is the most antagonistic of the Hoshidan siblings towards Corrin. Their final boss form is a culmination of all the hatred and resentment they felt for Corrin, but ultimately the game thinks that it's Takumi who is entirely at fault for distrusting and disliking someone who essentially sided with the enemy while Corrin gets to be blameless because they're the avatar.

Having the final boss be Sakura, who was saddened by Corrin choosing Nohr over Hoshido but was never outright antagonistic towards them, would put a spin on that. It would show how a sweet girl who wanted nothing more than to love you could also become twisted by hatred -- hatred that you had a role in pushing her towards because you invaded her country and slaughtered her surrendered soldiers right in front of her. The game can't play the same card as they did with Takumi, since Sakura accepted you from the start. You, the avatar, would've been partially responsible for pushing an innocent girl into madness.

Of course, that would involve not sucking up to Corrin and having them be right about everything, so naturally Takumi "has" to be the big bad.

[Thunderstar]

Nice art. It reminds me of that old rumor when the game was just out about Sakura being killed by some Faceless.

 

Personally I agree with what @Sunwoo said. There was no reason for Takumi apologizing at the end and the game treating him as wrong because he doesn't trust/like Corrin.

Garon doesn't use Sakura at all when they captured her, not even like a hostage but Garon wanting to make Sakura suffer so like that Anankos could possess her (like how he wanted Corrin to suffer), would be more interesting than what we got. 

 

Since Corrin spared Hinoka, he could also spare Takumi as well if he isn't possessed by Anankos and lied to Garon (and Sakura if she is being watched all the time by Garon or his lackeys) that he killed them like how a true Nohrian should. Obviously she would see Ryoma commiting suicide and Iago and Hans killing innocent Hoshidans in the Hinoka chapter.

She could start to get mad about what happened to her nation and her family and hates Corrin at this point. After Slime Garon failed to kill to his "children", Anankos could talk in her head saying he can give her power to revenge Hoshido and defeat Nohr. So that way, it would be more similar to what happened to

Spoiler

Berkut in SoV

than a true possession. Her not apologizing at the end before dying would be great too. 

Takumi is still alive, becomes the king of Hoshido and doesn't forgive Corrin about what he and Nohr did. Hoshido and Nohr are obviously not on better terms at the end of the game compared to Conquest and there is no "I forgive you because you're still my sibling/I would make the Hoshidans like you" nonsense. 

There would still be some problems about the story but it would be a much better and logical ending. I would also probably feel very sad for Sakura especially compared to the other deaths.

 

5 hours ago, Florete said:

Why is she apologizing to Takumi?

Big Brother could also apply to Corrin or maybe to Ryoma since she couldn't save him or something and not necessary Takumi.

EDIT: Apparently she apologizes to Takumi since she couldn't save him http://apticho.tumblr.com/post/147363175582/imagine-in-conquest-if-when-takumi-had-jumped-off

Edited December 11, 2017 by Thunderstar

[Sunwoo]

5 minutes ago, Thunderstar said:

Personally I agree with what @Sunwoo said. There was no reason for Takumi apologizing at the end and the game treating him as wrong because he doesn't trust/like Corrin.

Garon doesn't use Sakura at all when they captured her, not even like a hostage but Garon wanting to make Sakura suffer so like that Anankos could possess her (like how he wanted Corrin to suffer), would be more interesting than what we got. 

 

Since Corrin spared Hinoka, he could also spare Takumi as well if he isn't possessed by Anankos and lied to Garon (and Sakura if she is being watched all the time by Garon or his lackeys) that he killed them like how a true Nohrian should. Obviously she would see Ryoma commiting suicide and Iago and Hans killing innocent Hoshidans in the Hinoka chapter.

She could start to get mad about what happened to her nation and her family and hates Corrin at this point. After Slime Garon failed to kill to his "children", Anankos could talk in her head saying he can give her power to revenge Hoshido and defeat Nohr. So that way, it would be more similar to what happened to

  Hide contents

Berkut in SoV

than a true possession. Her not apologizing at the end before dying would be great too. 

Takumi is still alive, becomes the king of Hoshido and doesn't forgive Corrin about what he and Nohr did. Hoshido and Nohr are obviously not on better terms at the end of the game compared to Conquest and there is no "I forgive you because you're still my sibling/I would make the Hoshidans like you" nonsense. 

There would still be some problems about the story but it would be a much better and logical ending. I would also probably feel very sad for Sakura especially compared to the other deaths.

I think I read a fanfiction somewhere that had Sakura become possessed in Conquest instead of Takumi, and he lived while she died at the end of the route. In a way, one issue with Conquest is that in a way it's just so predictable. The one sibling who didn't like you from the start is the most persistent and the final "hurdle", even though Ryoma as the eldest prince should probably be a bigger threat and more in your way. The surviving siblings essentially forgive you and absolve you from guilt, so that you don't have to feel guilt about your choices because those you wronged forgave you and more or less said "it can't have been helped".

Conquest would've been a lot better, even in its current form, if Corrin would've just faced some consequences for their actions. Just one lasting consequence, whether it be the Hoshidan siblings not forgiving them or Corrin feeling guilty for all of the stuff that happened that they were responsible for, or for not standing up to Garon.

[Slumber]

I would have liked it more than Takumi.

Conquest portrays Takumi as this obnoxious cock-rocket who hates Corrin immediately. All throughout the game he basically stalks you and tries to kill you at every opportunity. By the time you get to the final boss, and Takumi stumbles in, the reaction is more "Oh god, this fucker again" than it is any genuine emotion, and as @Sunwoo said, the game makes it completely seem like Corrin putting him in the dirt is a logical, good conclusion.

Sakura, meanwhile, is immediately sympathetic. She loves her big bro, regardless of the side he fights for. If there were hints that she was secretly building up resentment or guilt for following Corrin, and it culminated in a finale where Anankos used her pain and repressed negative emotions to fight Corrin, I can guarantee it wouldn't be some celebration. The ending would be a lot more emotionally impactful than beating Takumi for the nth time. Plus, since Sakura is playable, the idea that Corrin potentially marrying and having kids with her would be such a gut punch to some people. It wouldn't be another "Good job Corrin, you beat the bad guy, you're so amazing!" scene, which really never should have been in Conquest.

So yeah. I think a final boss against Sakura has way more potential to be interesting.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Slumber

[Florete]

6 hours ago, Thunderstar said:

Big Brother could also apply to Corrin or maybe to Ryoma since she couldn't save him or something and not necessary Takumi.

EDIT: Apparently she apologizes to Takumi since she couldn't save him http://apticho.tumblr.com/post/147363175582/imagine-in-conquest-if-when-takumi-had-jumped-off

I was making a joke about it not being Corrin because I thought the image was implying it was a male Corrin (whom I despise), but I'll take that instead.

[ThunderKeybladeMaster]

You know what it's fine if you think it's interesting, I'm not offended by it, or anything.

[DragonFlames]

On 11.12.2017 at 3:11 PM, Slumber said:

I would have liked it more than Takumi.

Conquest portrays Takumi as this obnoxious cock-rocket who hates Corrin immediately. All throughout the game he basically stalks you and tries to kill you at every opportunity. By the time you get to the final boss, and Takumi stumbles in, the reaction is more "Oh god, this fucker again" than it is any genuine emotion, and as @Sunwoo said, the game makes it completely seem like Corrin putting him in the dirt is a logical, good conclusion.

Sakura, meanwhile, is immediately sympathetic. She loves her big bro, regardless of the side he fights for. If there were hints that she was secretly building up resentment or guilt for following Corrin, and it culminated in a finale where Anankos used her pain and repressed negative emotions to fight Corrin, I can guarantee it wouldn't be some celebration. The ending would be a lot more emotionally impactful than beating Takumi for the nth time. Plus, since Sakura is playable, the idea that Corrin potentially marrying and having kids with her would be such a gut punch to some people. It wouldn't be another "Good job Corrin, you beat the bad guy, you're so amazing!" scene, which really never should have been in Conquest.

So yeah. I think a final boss against Sakura has way more potential to be interesting.

It's not just Conquest that portrays Takumi that way. The entire Fatesverse (so, anything that has Takumi in it) does.
But otherwise, I agree with you. Especially on the reaction to the final boss part. I was like "Why does it have to be this guy again?" when before I thought "good riddance" after he jumped off the Trump wall, instead of "Oh no, not my bro whom I've known for, like, a total of four minutes and who basically tried his damndest to antagonize me into joining Nohr!"

All in all, I would have LOVED Sakura to be the final boss (which would also coincide with my personal headcanon of the little sisters actually being the strongest Royals lore-wise) and having to fight Vallite versions of Hana and Subaki with beefed up stats alongside her... But nope, girls can't be final bosses, so screw you!

[B.Leu]

You know what else would have been interesting ? Actual choices with them actually influencing things, like say, the final boss you'll get. Truly, I'm a genius of game design. /sarcasm.
 

No, but seriously, I read 'Sakura as a final boss', I'm like 'Genius !'. A character that represent kindness, innocence, healing or heck, Mikoto,, who welcome Corrin with open arms but eventually hate him for what he did and become the final boss. Like that's more interesting than Takumi, who's just an asshole who hate Corrin, for no reasons, then hate him for actually good reasons. (but they ignore it, because you know, Fates writing.)

[Nanima]

Takumi actually has extremely good reasons for disliking Corrin, but the game decides to show this as obviously wrong and petty. Conquest itself only makes it worse and spends the entire route hammering it in that an young prince fighting for the safety of his people is obviously the devil for not rolling over for the glorious avatar. Doesn't help that the localization decided to add onto his mostly justified mistrust and resentment of Nohr (which is a country that has been attacking his people for decades, responsible for the death of both his parents) and turned it into racism on par with the Alt-right (hence all the tired trump jokes people keep rolling out here). Seriously, the worst he says in the original is that he can't trust them and will destroy the invading army, the English version has him use lines like "Nohrians aren't like normal, decent people" and "Nohrians don't have souls" hitting everyone's Nazi senses. Just to hammer it in how wrong Takumi was. Can't sympathize with the racist if he sounds too vile to still be seen as an insecure teenager, am I right?

That said, I still wouldn't support Sakura as the final boss. Ideally, we wouldn't have had the mess that was Conquest plotline in the first place, but even with Sakura, the final boss is still the final "obstacle" for the player to overcome on their way to the end. Thematically, the only positive thing would feature Corrin dying at Sakura's hands, but since this is a video game, they simply have to triumph here. As aesthetically thrilling the final boss of Conquest is, the inclusion was a mistake as it only served as a final 'gotcha moment that was never allowed to go anywhere except to validate Corrin. 

I actually want to set a parallel to Elise's role in Birthright. I think Sakura becoming Queen at the end, forced to grow up so quickly, would have been a great contrast to Elise being frozen in death as a child forever. Sakura has always been the more mature of the imoutos, so having that happen would be a logical way for her character to progress. Throw in her being utterly disillusioned after losing all her siblings (Takumi still jumps of the wall, but from his own free will. Would count as a form of seppuku to preserve his honour after failing. I assume Hinoka dies too, or is otherwise not available) and growing cold towards Corrin would still hit the "You did this to her, monster!!" theme without needing a corpse-puppet that's just there to be a door-stopper.

[Ertrick36]

1 hour ago, Nanima said:

Takumi actually has extremely good reasons for disliking Corrin, but the game decides to show this as obviously wrong and petty. Conquest itself only makes it worse and spends the entire route hammering it in that an young prince fighting for the safety of his people is obviously the devil for not rolling over for the glorious avatar. Doesn't help that the localization decided to add onto his mostly justified mistrust and resentment of Nohr (which is a country that has been attacking his people for decades, responsible for the death of both his parents) and turned it into racism on par with the Alt-right (hence all the tired trump jokes people keep rolling out here). Seriously, the worst he says in the original is that he can't trust them and will destroy the invading army, the English version has him use lines like "Nohrians aren't like normal, decent people" and "Nohrians don't have souls" hitting everyone's Nazi senses. Just to hammer it in how wrong Takumi was. Can't sympathize with the racist if he sounds too vile to still be seen as an insecure teenager, am I right?

That said, I still wouldn't support Sakura as the final boss. Ideally, we wouldn't have had the mess that was Conquest plotline in the first place, but even with Sakura, the final boss is still the final "obstacle" for the player to overcome on their way to the end. Thematically, the only positive thing would feature Corrin dying at Sakura's hands, but since this is a video game, they simply have to triumph here. As aesthetically thrilling the final boss of Conquest is, the inclusion was a mistake as it only served as a final 'gotcha moment that was never allowed to go anywhere except to validate Corrin. 

I actually want to set a parallel to Elise's role in Birthright. I think Sakura becoming Queen at the end, forced to grow up so quickly, would have been a great contrast to Elise being frozen in death as a child forever. Sakura has always been the more mature of the imoutos, so having that happen would be a logical way for her character to progress. Throw in her being utterly disillusioned after losing all her siblings (Takumi still jumps of the wall, but from his own free will. Would count as a form of seppuku to preserve his honour after failing. I assume Hinoka dies too, or is otherwise not available) and growing cold towards Corrin would still hit the "You did this to her, monster!!" theme without needing a corpse-puppet that's just there to be a door-stopper.

- Pretty much my thoughts on Takumi in CQ.  Unlike most people who probably felt defensive of Corrin, I could understand exactly where Takumi was coming from when he was distrustful of Corrin.  And I think that distrust was handled fairly well in Birthright and maybe even a little bit in Revelation, where it takes someone else making a great sacrifice for him to start following Corrin.  But they ruin him so badly in Conquest...  Not even Oboro ever displayed such horrible racism, and it was all just because of some stupid possession crap.  And of course the game always has to laud your avatar as the savior of everything, even when he/she's outright working for a villain.

As fun as Takumi was to fight in Conquest Endgame, it really did serve the story quite poorly overall.

- I would've liked if Sakura was made that much more relevant.  It was kind of irritating that she was effectively tossed aside as soon as you defeated her forces in at Fort Jinya, especially when her counterpart became one of the central figures in the big tragedy in Birthright (even if that tragedy was quite flawed in and of itself).  All of her other relatives got bigger roles; she doesn't even show up in the end of Conquest.  Heck, I don't think she was all that relevant in any of the paths.

[DragonFlames]

On 16.12.2017 at 5:16 PM, Nanima said:

Takumi actually has extremely good reasons for disliking Corrin, but the game decides to show this as obviously wrong and petty. Conquest itself only makes it worse and spends the entire route hammering it in that an young prince fighting for the safety of his people is obviously the devil for not rolling over for the glorious avatar. Doesn't help that the localization decided to add onto his mostly justified mistrust and resentment of Nohr (which is a country that has been attacking his people for decades, responsible for the death of both his parents) and turned it into racism on par with the Alt-right (hence all the tired trump jokes people keep rolling out here). Seriously, the worst he says in the original is that he can't trust them and will destroy the invading army, the English version has him use lines like "Nohrians aren't like normal, decent people" and "Nohrians don't have souls" hitting everyone's Nazi senses. Just to hammer it in how wrong Takumi was. Can't sympathize with the racist if he sounds too vile to still be seen as an insecure teenager, am I right?

That said, I still wouldn't support Sakura as the final boss. Ideally, we wouldn't have had the mess that was Conquest plotline in the first place, but even with Sakura, the final boss is still the final "obstacle" for the player to overcome on their way to the end. Thematically, the only positive thing would feature Corrin dying at Sakura's hands, but since this is a video game, they simply have to triumph here. As aesthetically thrilling the final boss of Conquest is, the inclusion was a mistake as it only served as a final 'gotcha moment that was never allowed to go anywhere except to validate Corrin. 

I actually want to set a parallel to Elise's role in Birthright. I think Sakura becoming Queen at the end, forced to grow up so quickly, would have been a great contrast to Elise being frozen in death as a child forever. Sakura has always been the more mature of the imoutos, so having that happen would be a logical way for her character to progress. Throw in her being utterly disillusioned after losing all her siblings (Takumi still jumps of the wall, but from his own free will. Would count as a form of seppuku to preserve his honour after failing. I assume Hinoka dies too, or is otherwise not available) and growing cold towards Corrin would still hit the "You did this to her, monster!!" theme without needing a corpse-puppet that's just there to be a door-stopper.

That would have been really awesome, actually.
But I don't think actually reprimanding Corrin for choosing Nohr in-universe (as logical as it might have been) would have done anything to quell those that hate Conquest's story, since it would still leave most players with the feeling that the game itself is throwing shade at them for not choosing Birthright or Revelation instead.
I would have been fine with it, since it would have made sense from a narrative standpoint in this case and I think it could actually have been done well, IF they didn't decide to make this supposedly grey conflict of morals into a conflict of black (Nohr) and white (Hoshido). Heck, the original names of both kingdoms actually are "Black Night" (not to be confused with "Black KNight") and "White Night".
I think, along with Sakura actually being the final boss (but her surviving and becoming queen in the end), adding "Gray and Grey Morality" to the story of Conquest especially would have helped matters so much more. There are only a few things the story missed to make Conquest's story alright and justify Corrin siding with them:
1.) Remove any and all references to Valla.
2.) Make Garon not as obviously evil. Make him a ruler concerned for the well-being of his country. You can leave the strict and somewhat ruthless part of his personality in there and justify that with the concubine wars. But don't make him... you know... a glorified slime.
3.) Have Nohr's invasion into Hoshido actually have a reason other than "See those Hoshido guys? Yeah, let's kill them." Like, make it a last ditch attempt at saving a starving people or something and make it clear that the invasion is a last resort.
4.) Have the female Royals be more relevant outside of being waifu-bait. Give them legendary weapons, too.
5.) This doesn't have anything to do with Conquest's plot in and of itself, but I think Corrin should get the Yato much later. Have them receive it from the Rainbow Sage after he sees their resolve. In the meantime, you can have Corrin use regular swords. I do like the idea of the weapon transforming when coming into contact with the other legendary weapons and their users "synchronizing their hearts", though, so you can leave that in. Maybe have the female Royals' weapons transform it into it's first form and the males' into it's last. Something like that. Also, have the transformation of the Yato tie into Corrin's promotion as well.

I do disagree on the only positive thing being Corrin dying at Sakura's hands, though. This way, you would prevent the story from developing Corrin's character. Like how they would view the world differently after essentially slaughtering their (supposed) blood relatives, how they would go about trying to bring peace to the world in the ending, becoming something of a wanderer or something along those lines. Have the death of their siblings actually mean something to this character, change them in some way, even.

[Noni]

I think, Takumi could've been interesting. After playing Birthright and knowing, that he'd be the final Villain in CQ I was interested in seeing an Antagonist, who has legitimate Reasons for hating me, but has also some issues fueling that Anger. But, like the others said, in Fatesverse there are no legitimate Reasons for being mad at Corrin.

 

Well, back to Sakura. After some Fanfics, I have to say one Thing: Angry Post-Conquest-Sakura is best Sakura!

I like the idea especially, because the loss, that she feals for both of her older brothers is very sad for very different reasons. With Ryoma, it is horrible, because he was always a giant tree for Sakura to lean onto and look up to and now it must feel horrible, that this incredible inspiring person for Sakura is gone.

With Takumi, it is a tragedy for completely different reasons. He was very far from being perfect and Sakura was one of the few people, who he could talk to him. Sakura was able to see all of his potential and all the ways, he could possibly be a much better person, but now that chance is just gone and Takumi will never be the great guy, that Sakura could see him become and die instead as an angry loser.

Kay, a lot of that is Headcanon.

[Nanima]

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

That would have been really awesome, actually.
But I don't think actually reprimanding Corrin for choosing Nohr in-universe (as logical as it might have been) would have done anything to quell those that hate Conquest's story, since it would still leave most players with the feeling that the game itself is throwing shade at them for not choosing Birthright or Revelation instead.
I would have been fine with it, since it would have made sense from a narrative standpoint in this case and I think it could actually have been done well, IF they didn't decide to make this supposedly grey conflict of morals into a conflict of black (Nohr) and white (Hoshido). Heck, the original names of both kingdoms actually are "Black Night" (not to be confused with "Black KNight") and "White Night".
I think, along with Sakura actually being the final boss (but her surviving and becoming queen in the end), adding "Gray and Grey Morality" to the story of Conquest especially would have helped matters so much more. There are only a few things the story missed to make Conquest's story alright and justify Corrin siding with them:
1.) Remove any and all references to Valla.
2.) Make Garon not as obviously evil. Make him a ruler concerned for the well-being of his country. You can leave the strict and somewhat ruthless part of his personality in there and justify that with the concubine wars. But don't make him... you know... a glorified slime.
3.) Have Nohr's invasion into Hoshido actually have a reason other than "See those Hoshido guys? Yeah, let's kill them." Like, make it a last ditch attempt at saving a starving people or something and make it clear that the invasion is a last resort.
4.) Have the female Royals be more relevant outside of being waifu-bait. Give them legendary weapons, too.
5.) This doesn't have anything to do with Conquest's plot in and of itself, but I think Corrin should get the Yato much later. Have them receive it from the Rainbow Sage after he sees their resolve. In the meantime, you can have Corrin use regular swords. I do like the idea of the weapon transforming when coming into contact with the other legendary weapons and their users "synchronizing their hearts", though, so you can leave that in. Maybe have the female Royals' weapons transform it into it's first form and the males' into it's last. Something like that. Also, have the transformation of the Yato tie into Corrin's promotion as well.

I do disagree on the only positive thing being Corrin dying at Sakura's hands, though. This way, you would prevent the story from developing Corrin's character. Like how they would view the world differently after essentially slaughtering their (supposed) blood relatives, how they would go about trying to bring peace to the world in the ending, becoming something of a wanderer or something along those lines. Have the death of their siblings actually mean something to this character, change them in some way, even.

I mean the game did actually throw shade for choosing Conquest, but it was more in the form of Corrin descending into self-pity and regretting the choice while still charging on nontheless. My point was mostly that the story as is is pretty much a mess, not that calling Corrin out on it would be the best way to solve everything. Just, like you said, logical for what we got. I am very much in support of making the conflict more grey in a way that isn't just adding in more racism to a handful of characters, like the localization attempted. People often say that Nohr got the short end of the stick when it came to the story structure, but I think Hoshido actually had it worse. While Nohr is mostly portrayed as evil, we actually have a lot more development of it. The locales visited and the backstory give it a bigger background. It's not middle earth-level of developed, but a lot better of than we have on Hoshido. (which is, what, feudal Japan with Pegasi and Kinshi?) So Hoshido being a more 3-dimensional country alongside what you propose for Nohr would have been needed.

I approve of the females getting divine weapons so long as it also carries more story involvement for them, and the males still have their weapons too. (I saw some people suggest taking the little bros weapons and giving them to the big sisters, but that would also require a rewrite of their characters, because of stuff like a significant part of Takumi's self-worth lying in his ability to wield the Fuujin)

The "Corrin dying at Sakura's hands being the only positive outcome" was exclusively referring to Conquest as it is. I suppose I should have clarified it as "the only outcome that could logically be called positive" after what happens in the Conquest we got. The game goes out of it's way beforehand to make it seem like Corrin "did what they had to do" and suddenly doing a 180 at the very end and saying "no they were wrong after all" would feel schizophrenic from a storytelling point. If more of the previous story was changed to set it up, then yes, that would be a good conclusion. As it is, I don't think fixing one thing alone would have made Conquest whole.

[DragonFlames]

19 hours ago, Nanima said:

I mean the game did actually throw shade for choosing Conquest, but it was more in the form of Corrin descending into self-pity and regretting the choice while still charging on nontheless. My point was mostly that the story as is is pretty much a mess, not that calling Corrin out on it would be the best way to solve everything. Just, like you said, logical for what we got. I am very much in support of making the conflict more grey in a way that isn't just adding in more racism to a handful of characters, like the localization attempted. People often say that Nohr got the short end of the stick when it came to the story structure, but I think Hoshido actually had it worse. While Nohr is mostly portrayed as evil, we actually have a lot more development of it. The locales visited and the backstory give it a bigger background. It's not middle earth-level of developed, but a lot better of than we have on Hoshido. (which is, what, feudal Japan with Pegasi and Kinshi?) So Hoshido being a more 3-dimensional country alongside what you propose for Nohr would have been needed.

I approve of the females getting divine weapons so long as it also carries more story involvement for them, and the males still have their weapons too. (I saw some people suggest taking the little bros weapons and giving them to the big sisters, but that would also require a rewrite of their characters, because of stuff like a significant part of Takumi's self-worth lying in his ability to wield the Fuujin)

The "Corrin dying at Sakura's hands being the only positive outcome" was exclusively referring to Conquest as it is. I suppose I should have clarified it as "the only outcome that could logically be called positive" after what happens in the Conquest we got. The game goes out of it's way beforehand to make it seem like Corrin "did what they had to do" and suddenly doing a 180 at the very end and saying "no they were wrong after all" would feel schizophrenic from a storytelling point. If more of the previous story was changed to set it up, then yes, that would be a good conclusion. As it is, I don't think fixing one thing alone would have made Conquest whole.

Alright, I got you. Of course, seeing Conquest as it is now, the points you made actually hold more weight than mine, which is why I suggested changes to the story in the first place.

True, the shade throwing was already present (though in a way that made Corrin look like a complete wuss) and people already hated it. So throwing even more shade at them would not quell the hate, is what I meant to say. I could have worded that better, I guess.

I also agree on Hoshido really needing more development. Like, what's their beef with Mokushu? Where is Saizo's home village? And how do the Wind and Fire Tribes cope with living in Hoshidan territory?
Adding to this, I'd also like to point out that the interactions between the Hoshidan siblings in-story were quite lacking in terms of showing them as an actual family. I think this is one part that's better handled with the Nohrian siblings.
The Nohr being better developed part is exactly the reason why Conquest is so disappointing, I feel. They had the basics down to justify an invasion and Corrin siding with said invasion (barely fertile land, harsh climate, not much sunshine to grow stuff), but then squandered it in favour of portraying Nohr as the "bad guys" exclusively.
Conquest's story as a whole is pretty schizophrenic if you think about it. They try so hard to make Corrin look like a good guy / gal who just does what they have to do for the sake of a possible bigger picture, that being saving Nohr from starvation, which would put further emphasis on the whole "blood ties mean nothing" deal Conquest has going on, but then go so out of their way of showing Nohr as an evil kingdom, to the point that they don't even trust THEIR OWN SIBLINGS with crucial information (Garon being possessed / evil) that it makes Corrin look like a complete dimwit for even considering to choose Nohr.

Of course, everyone would keep the divine weapons in my suggested scenario. It wouldn't honestly make sense to do otherwise, since, as you said, the characters would have to be rewritten entirely.

[Nanima]

On 18.12.2017 at 5:58 PM, DragonFlames said:

True, the shade throwing was already present (though in a way that made Corrin look like a complete wuss) and people already hated it. So throwing even more shade at them would not quell the hate, is what I meant to say. I could have worded that better, I guess.

I also agree on Hoshido really needing more development. Like, what's their beef with Mokushu? Where is Saizo's home village? And how do the Wind and Fire Tribes cope with living in Hoshidan territory?
Adding to this, I'd also like to point out that the interactions between the Hoshidan siblings in-story were quite lacking in terms of showing them as an actual family. I think this is one part that's better handled with the Nohrian siblings.
The Nohr being better developed part is exactly the reason why Conquest is so disappointing, I feel. They had the basics down to justify an invasion and Corrin siding with said invasion (barely fertile land, harsh climate, not much sunshine to grow stuff), but then squandered it in favour of portraying Nohr as the "bad guys" exclusively.
Conquest's story as a whole is pretty schizophrenic if you think about it. They try so hard to make Corrin look like a good guy / gal who just does what they have to do for the sake of a possible bigger picture, that being saving Nohr from starvation, which would put further emphasis on the whole "blood ties mean nothing" deal Conquest has going on, but then go so out of their way of showing Nohr as an evil kingdom, to the point that they don't even trust THEIR OWN SIBLINGS with crucial information (Garon being possessed / evil) that it makes Corrin look like a complete dimwit for even considering to choose Nohr.

Of course, everyone would keep the divine weapons in my suggested scenario. It wouldn't honestly make sense to do otherwise, since, as you said, the characters would have to be rewritten entirely.

No problem. 

Yeah, it's not like there's nothing with Hoshido, it's just that the bits we got never got followed up or build upon. Like Koga's refugees heading for Nohr instead of the much nicer Hoshido, plus them still being allied with Mokusho despite what happened, implies shady things for Hoshido and Sumeragi. Never explored.
I agree that we were never shown the Broshidos being close, like we did the Nohrsibs. The game sure likes to tell us they are close, but doesn't bother demonstrating this outside of supports (except Takumi and Sakura in specific instances). I do headcanon them as something of a broken family due to the kidnapping (as opposed to the Nohrsibs also being broken, but holding together due to external pressure), which explains everyone's issues, but that doesn't seem to be the intended reading...

Agreed that making Nohr exclusively bad was a lame move. There could have been a lot of reasons behind it to make them sympathetic at least, but it's all squandered in favour of a slime monster plot device. And the trust-issues bother me the most. Not to mention that silly crystall ball nonsense. Sure, Azura not trusting the Nohrians fully makes sense, since she doesn't know them well, but Corrin doubting that his siblings would believe them is just dumb, especially in Camilla and Elise's case. We also know from Birthright that Leon is willing to buy the crystal plot-device, even from a Corrin that has joined the enemy side. There's really no excuse for Corrin not to try and convince everyone besides Xander, without having to march into Hoshido at the head of an invasion army. What they should have done is take Leon's advice from chapter 14 to heart and slowly raise a rebellion against Garon from the shadows, while subtly working to sabotage him. (instead of nothing like in the original)  

[Jingle Jangle]

On 12/17/2017 at 3:49 PM, Noni said:

I think, Takumi could've been interesting. After playing Birthright and knowing, that he'd be the final Villain in CQ I was interested in seeing an Antagonist, who has legitimate Reasons for hating me, but has also some issues fueling that Anger. But, like the others said, in Fatesverse there are no legitimate Reasons for being mad at Corrin.

I like his backstory in the Birthright drama CD, where it tells that Kaze informs Takumi of Corrin is Hoshido's second prince, demoting Takumi to third prince. When Corrin becomes accepted to Hoshido he may take the Fujin Yumi because it only belongs of Hoshido's second prince. That is a lot stronger than what is in the game. The reason Takumi invested so much into archery was because Ryoma bested him in a sword duel. And then after years later becoming one of the best archers in the Fates world to give it up for long lost brother. Thinking that Corrin has stolen his place in life. I want to  see that in the game.

[DragonFlames]

51 minutes ago, Nanima said:

No problem. 

Yeah, it's not like there's nothing with Hoshido, it's just that the bits we got never got followed up or build upon. Like Koga's refugees heading for Nohr instead of the much nicer Hoshido, plus them still being allied with Mokusho despite what happened, implies shady things for Hoshido and Sumeragi. Never explored.
I agree that we were never shown the Broshidos being close, like we did the Nohrsibs. The game sure likes to tell us they are close, but doesn't bother demonstrating this outside of supports (except Takumi and Sakura in specific instances). I do headcanon them as something of a broken family due to the kidnapping (as opposed to the Nohrsibs also being broken, but holding together due to external pressure), which explains everyone's issues, but that doesn't seem to be the intended reading...

Agreed that making Nohr exclusively bad was a lame move. There could have been a lot of reasons behind it to make them sympathetic at least, but it's all squandered in favour of a slime monster plot device. And the trust-issues bother me the most. Not to mention that silly crystall ball nonsense. Sure, Azura not trusting the Nohrians fully makes sense, since she doesn't know them well, but Corrin doubting that his siblings would believe them is just dumb, especially in Camilla and Elise's case. We also know from Birthright that Leon is willing to buy the crystal plot-device, even from a Corrin that has joined the enemy side. There's really no excuse for Corrin not to try and convince everyone besides Xander, without having to march into Hoshido at the head of an invasion army. What they should have done is take Leon's advice from chapter 14 to heart and slowly raise a rebellion against Garon from the shadows, while subtly working to sabotage him. (instead of nothing like in the original)  

At that point, I WISH the game would have taken that direction, honestly. It would have been so much better than what we got.

[Jingle Jangle]

5 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

At that point, I WISH the game would have taken that direction, honestly. It would have been so much better than what we got.

The problem that I have about remaking Conquest into a Nohriran civil that it makes both Birthright and Conquest into a war to fight Garon. Which weakens both potential plots if both of them are about stopping Garon, making the events have the similar goals. I would still have Nohr invade Hoshido in some capacity to make the goals of Corrin of each route different. 

[eclipse]

Hmm, this gives me an idea.

What if the final boss is one of the siblings, but which one would've been determined by how you answered some in-game questions/some map clear conditions?  I think it would've been really cool from a character development standpoint.

[Nanima]

1 hour ago, Jingle Jangle said:

The problem that I have about remaking Conquest into a Nohriran civil that it makes both Birthright and Conquest into a war to fight Garon. Which weakens both potential plots if both of them are about stopping Garon, making the events have the similar goals. I would still have Nohr invade Hoshido in some capacity to make the goals of Corrin of each route different. 

Conquest was originally marketed as  a route to "reform a corrupt nation from the inside". Something it failed to deliver on every possible level, but which was still a more interesting concept then "Go conquer this foreign place with your army to magically fix everything.". Plus, I don't see why you couldn't have that AND have Garon go on with the conquest of Hoshido. Corrin would be forced to go along initially, due to not having enough resources/men on their side to rebel, but makes sure to actually sabotage Garon every chance they get. 

I actually had a story concept floating around in my mind (which I have posted before, I think, but never wrote properly 'cause I'm lazy and unmotivated) where Hoshido's invasion happens midgame, and Corrin isn't ready to rebel just yet, so all they can do is damage control. Nohr wins pretty quickly by taking the Broshidos captive (minus Hinoka, who escapes and leads what's left of the Hoshidan forces later on), so Corrin and their siblings (except Xander) devise a plan to break them out before they can be executed. Sadly, they only manage to save Sakura, while Takumi dies during the escape attempt (doing something like help ensure they get out/protecting Sakura) and Ryouma gets recaptured and later publicly executed. This would not only inspire the Hoshidan resistance to redouble their efforts but also Corrin to openly turn against Garon. They'd still have to fight Xander, but you could turn that into a climatic fight with Corrin finally convincing him of doing what is right.   

I wouldn't like Hoshidos invasion as endgame though. I've hear people argue that Hoshido should be made villainous, but I feel that's tired and uninspired. An easy out for moral responsibility in the face of invasion. Unless you want a Corrin who's a straight villain, or deeply morally grey, you won't find a way around it though, which is why I like inner rebellion better. Who cares if Garon is still ultimately the villain, when it's all about the journey there?    

[Jingle Jangle]

1 minute ago, Nanima said:

Conquest was originally marketed as  a route to "reform a corrupt nation from the inside". Something it failed to deliver on every possible level, but which was still a more interesting concept then "Go conquer this foreign place with your army to magically fix everything.". Plus, I don't see why you couldn't have that AND have Garon go on with the conquest of Hoshido. Corrin would be forced to go along initially, due to not having enough resources/men on their side to rebel, but makes sure to actually sabotage Garon every chance they get. 

True, Conquest could have the invasion of Hoshido as a sub-plot to the story nearing the end of the story. While the beginning of the game has Corrin being an errand boy for Garon making the preparations ready for the invasion. At the same time planning with the rest of the Nohrian sidings that Garon is becoming weaker as a leader.

18 minutes ago, Nanima said:

 I actually had a story concept floating around in my mind (which I have posted before, I think, but never wrote properly 'cause I'm lazy and unmotivated) where Hoshido's invasion happens midgame, and Corrin isn't ready to rebel just yet, so all they can do is damage control. Nohr wins pretty quickly by taking the Broshidos captive (minus Hinoka, who escapes and leads what's left of the Hoshidan forces later on), so Corrin and their siblings (except Xander) devise a plan to break them out before they can be executed. Sadly, they only manage to save Sakura, while Takumi dies during the escape attempt (doing something like help ensure they get out/protecting Sakura) and Ryouma gets recaptured and later publicly executed. This would not only inspire the Hoshidan resistance to redouble their efforts but also Corrin to openly turn against Garon. They'd still have to fight Xander, but you could turn that into a climatic fight with Corrin finally convincing him of doing what is right.   

 

As your ideas, I'm not really a fan. Mainly of so much character death, because imo if a character is doing to die, it better be for a good reason. Some of my least favorite stories are killathons, it's hard to care in a story where anyone can died with little investment in that character.

20 minutes ago, Nanima said:

I wouldn't like Hoshidos invasion as endgame though. I've hear people argue that Hoshido should be made villainous, but I feel that's tired and uninspired. An easy out for moral responsibility in the face of invasion. Unless you want a Corrin who's a straight villain, or deeply morally grey, you won't find a way around it though, which is why I like inner rebellion better. Who cares if Garon is still ultimately the villain, when it's all about the journey there?    

Hoshido should remain morally better than Nohr. Sure there can be some bad eggs like Kotaro and Yukimura. But being racist for the sake of being racist, feels like cheap writing. Similar to Echoes where Zofia has some problems, but it's still a decent country (except for the famine going on). 

[Nanima]

25 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

As your ideas, I'm not really a fan. Mainly of so much character death, because imo if a character is doing to die, it better be for a good reason. Some of my least favorite stories are killathons, it's hard to care in a story where anyone can died with little investment in that character.

Uh, the only ones that die are Ryouma and Takumi, as a mirror to Birthright and what happens in OTL Conquest. I don't see how that's a killathon. Especially since I said nothing about retainers or others dying. Plus the deaths actually serve a purpose for the characters. I didn't explain to thoroughly, but I still don't see how two canon character deaths makes it a mindless slaughter. Seriously.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Nanima