Are Firesweeps overrated?

[Junkhead]

Not being countered sounds great on paper, but I always had trouble justifying it over other weapons. For starters, it pretty much demands amazing offensive stats. While that's not necessarily a band thing in it's own right, it seems like a rather narrow standard. You need really high Atk to 2HKO consistently, as well as really high Spd to double as much- and chances are, if you have both of these, you may as well not do better with Quad > Desperation setups? Even units that don't have amazing offensive stats benefit better from something as lazy as Death Blow > Braves.

Then there's the fact that not countering comes with it's own double-edge blade, which is to not being able to counter yourself. There are situations in which being able to counter can be more benicial, whether it'd be to bait certain enemies out (which doesn't happen as much in Arena's linear gameplay & pace) or even charge up your specials (2-turn cooldowns with Killers/Slayers and/or QR-based tanks).

 

I think someone mentioned Elincia is currently higher precisely because of the new Firesweep Sword. I don't honesly see how that would be better than potentially quadding. You're generally quadding stuff you don't kill in two hits, and vice-versa.

 

[Ice Dragon]

The reason why Firesweep is rated so highly is because you are never at a disadvantage when initiating combat, even if you fail to kill the opponent. The second half is the part that differentiates Firesweep weapons from other weapons.

Player-phase units are never seeing combat on enemy phase to begin with, meaning the drawback of being unable to counterattack becomes completely irrelevant.

 

15 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

For starters, it pretty much demands amazing offensive stats. While that's not necessarily a band thing in it's own right, it seems like a rather narrow standard. You need really high Atk to 2HKO consistently, as well as really high Spd to double as much- and chances are, if you have both of these, you may as well not do better with Quad > Desperation setups? Even units that don't have amazing offensive stats benefit better from something as lazy as Death Blow > Braves.

You can say that for any other weapon. Certain stat distributions favor certain weapons over others. Firesweep weapons are sub-optimal on units with low Spd in the same way that Brave weapons are sub-optimal on units with low Atk or that Slaying weapons work best on units with either high Spd or high Def.

Nobody is saying that Firesweep weapons replace everything else on every build.

 

26 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

There are situations in which being able to counter can be more benicial, whether it'd be to bait certain enemies out (which doesn't happen as much in Arena's linear gameplay & pace) or even charge up your specials (2-turn cooldowns with Killers/Slayers and/or QR-based tanks).

If you're baiting, you're not using a Firesweep weapon to begin with.

[Lord_Grima]

Firesweep weapons are great for any frail unit. They can attack without a counter. You do have to build the rest of you team to support them. Reposition/swap to move the Firesweep user out of the enemy's way after attacking, or use dance/sing to let them attack again.

The difference between Firesweep and Brave-Quad builds is that you don't need Desperation on Firesweep. This opens up different options for the B skill.

Most units that run the Brave-Quad builds are also frail, so i don't think you should be baiting with them.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Yeah, like the people up there have mentioned, Firesweep is legitimately unfair because there are zero counters to it. On the player side, you can do whatever you want, throw Peri at Bike because who cares, he can't hit back. On the enemy side, Firesweep essentially takes away any Enemy Phase baiting option you had against it. Invalidating 1/2 of a match's flow is pretty strong. Most of the time, you can't even safely bait out Firesweep users to separate them from their team; they can get Repositioned away after attacking, or you can run into gimmicks like Heavy Blade Cordelia, and she Galeforces into your team.

Firesweep Brave Lyn is still ridiculous. People were saying the Dragon buff has really affected her (and it has), but that one fucking Firesweep CA build is still going strong.

[Xenomata]

Firesweep is a legitimate counter to units like Xander and Hector, who use their high defensive abilities and Distant Counter weapons to survive combat and, when you try to attack them again, get nuked by Vantage Bonfire.

I'd like to pull up Ayra real quick. She is strictly a Player Phase unit when talking about the advantages she has, even when considering other possible builds she can do. I personally feel like it's the same for Firesweep: only at it's best when in the hands of a human player. Give Firesweep to a computer played unit, and they'll still be dead all the same.

Now what I'm interested in most is if they will create a Counter-disabling disable skill, like Cancel Affinity but with Firesweep, Windsweep/Watersweep, and Skill Refined Deathly Dagger+. Also, will we ever got an Earthsweep? Or would Earthsweep just be the Counter-disabling disable skill...?

[Junkhead]

At least I'm not feeling a little silly giving my Charlotte the Firesweep when the update was right around the corner.

actually fuck that I can't help +3 bonuses and lowered cooldown specials

Edited December 12, 2017 by Soul~!

[Stroud]

True, I play a team which is based on baiting and countering. Teams which use Firesweep are truly vicious.
My A.Tiki can counter any B!Lyn with one hit KO. But if B!Lyn is on the opponents team with Firesweep that's it, I have to use other measures. 

After Faye was reissued as a Focus unit I feared that the Firesweepocalypse is on the run. But still, in my point range I meet Firesweep B!Lyn only sometimes

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Stroud

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I'd like to pull up Ayra real quick. She is strictly a Player Phase unit when talking about the advantages she has, even when considering other possible builds she can do.

Not the best example you could have chosen there. Base 31 Def and a powerful 2-cooldown special skill says she can run enemy-phase builds just fine.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

16 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I'd like to pull up Ayra real quick. She is strictly a Player Phase unit when talking about the advantages she has, even when considering other possible builds she can do. I personally feel like it's the same for Firesweep: only at it's best when in the hands of a human player. Give Firesweep to a computer played unit, and they'll still be dead all the same.

Well, her strongest build is her DC build (you hit me you die, I hit you you die), but the class of Red swords she's supposed to represent functions like that, yeah.

But the simple presence of Firesweep eliminates half of your options of dealing with that unit. They aren't too hard to deal with, but still much harder than it should be.

[Junkhead]

40 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Well, her strongest build is her DC build (you hit me you die, I hit you you die), but the class of Red swords she's supposed to represent functions like that, yeah.

But the simple presence of Firesweep eliminates half of your options of dealing with that unit. They aren't too hard to deal with, but still much harder than it should be.

I was going to mention how DC takes up an A-slot but literally everything about Ayra contraddicts me.

Fuck powerscaling.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

15 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

I was going to mention how DC takes up an A-slot but literally everything about Ayra contraddicts me.

Fuck powerscaling.

Doesn't matter that you have no A-slot when you have more stats than Ryoma and Ike anyway! And a Special that rivals Ignis in damage.

Edited December 12, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Ronman5]

On the topic of Ayra... I thought she was perhaps the best red sword unit now... or tied with Mia (due to her Resolute blade and Wo Dao++ and having similar statlines) 

Back to firesweep+ I personally don't use them but they could be incredibly useful on a bait team that has a bulky armor like Hector or Arden, having them take a hit, and such.. 

but I feel firesweep is often over hyped... when I look up builds that use the lance online it would be for units like Tana, Cordelia, etc. so I'm guessing they believe firesweep is perfect for units that fear bonus damage or something similar... which I can understand to a degree....

 

Honestly I would use the Firesweep Bow out of them all because its more useful and you can have better blockers (like Armors) take the check and wall before your hit.. Otherwise you might need a good swap/Repo/dance unit nearby to get the Firesweep unit out of the way. 

[Junkhead]

45 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Doesn't matter that you have no A-slot when you have more stats than Ryoma and Ike anyway! And a Special that rivals Ignis in damage.

pretty much

Like, what I generally argue against DC doesn't really apply to her.

[Junkhead]

14 minutes ago, Ronman5 said:

On the topic of Ayra... I thought she was perhaps the best red sword unit now... or tied with Mia (due to her Resolute blade and Wo Dao++ and having similar statlines) 

Back to firesweep+ I personally don't use them but they could be incredibly useful on a bait team that has a bulky armor like Hector or Arden, having them take a hit, and such.. 

but I feel firesweep is often over hyped... when I look up builds that use the lance online it would be for units like Tana, Cordelia, etc. so I'm guessing they believe firesweep is perfect for units that fear bonus damage or something similar... which I can understand to a degree....

 

Honestly I would use the Firesweep Bow out of them all because its more useful and you can have better blockers (like Armors) take the check and wall before your hit.. Otherwise you might need a good swap/Repo/dance unit nearby to get the Firesweep unit out of the way. 

I don't know about a "baiting team", but a team requires a sense of flexibility. You can't really force a powerful hyperoffense if you legitimately need to force an approach at times (i.e intelligent enemy positioning in things like Trials), and that's why you need at least one of those roles. A bait or tank character doesn't necessarily have to be an armoured unit. They can be magic-based, and in some cases both. Apparently someone like Faye is one of the better ranged tanking units, now.

[Alkaid]

I've had a hard time debating whether to try out Firesweep weapons or not. As nice as freely chipping enemies you wouldn't normally engage and getting around Vantage, QR, etc. is I worry the one round kills I'd miss out on compared to a Brave weapon would cause me problems.

You'd need more team support or dancers to get the unit out of the way or extra help to finish an enemy. With units like Ayra running around with really high spd and good def now, I don't want situations where a unit like that is left alive because she wouldn't die without being doubled and now I have to use more units' turns to help.  I don't tend to carry a dancer or have movement type buffs on my arena teams, so each unit be able to handle things more independently is more my style. Occasionally baiting with an otherwise player phase unit comes in handy as well.

Firesweep Lyn is probably the most standout Firesweep user, since she's ranged and has the extra movement to do her thing with even more safety and less support than anyone else.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

18 minutes ago, Ronman5 said:

On the topic of Ayra... I thought she was perhaps the best red sword unit now... or tied with Mia (due to her Resolute blade and Wo Dao++ and having similar statlines) 

Back to firesweep+ I personally don't use them but they could be incredibly useful on a bait team that has a bulky armor like Hector or Arden, having them take a hit, and such.. 

but I feel firesweep is often over hyped... when I look up builds that use the lance online it would be for units like Tana, Cordelia, etc. so I'm guessing they believe firesweep is perfect for units that fear bonus damage or something similar... which I can understand to a degree....

 

Honestly I would use the Firesweep Bow out of them all because its more useful and you can have better blockers (like Armors) take the check and wall before your hit.. Otherwise you might need a good swap/Repo/dance unit nearby to get the Firesweep unit out of the way. 

Firesweep is considered broken because all concepts such as weapon triangle disadvantage, Quick Riposte, Steady Breath etc. that would normally discourage a Player Phase unit from attacking becomes 100% irrelevant. Like, with Brave Lance Cordelia, she's incredibly strong, able to kill even some Greens, and gets more matchup wins than Firesweep does, yet there are still some units that she has to steer away from and not engage, which means you lose her as an option against that specific target. Firesweep doesn't have this problem at all; you're free to attack anything you want with zero risk.

Firesweep fits a more offensive team with dancers and Reposition support, but fliers with Firesweep are the most broken thing (for Sword and Lance). They can fly over anything and attack from any angle, can freely use Hit and Run and get Repositioned on any terrain, and they even have some of the best stat spreads to boot. They essentially have no weakness in player hands, unlike infantry or horse Firesweeps who still have to take positioning risks.

[Junkhead]

I literally just thought Reposition works in any given team. I don't know why to use other Assists.

[Othin]

15 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

I literally just thought Reposition works in any given team. I don't know why to use other Assists.

Reposition's power depends on how mobile the Reposition-using unit is. It's great on cavalry and fliers, but not on armors.

[Xenomata]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Not the best example you could have chosen there. Base 31 Def and a powerful 2-cooldown special skill says she can run enemy-phase builds just fine.

 

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Well, her strongest build is her DC build (you hit me you die, I hit you you die), but the class of Red swords she's supposed to represent functions like that, yeah.

Going strictly off her most accessible set (Budget set, if you will), yes she can run enemy phase set well, sorry should have been specific.

But anyways, I still believe that Firesweep is a strictly Player Phase playstyle. It's exceptionally easy to counter when the enemy uses it because the AI treats it like any other weapon, but in player hands it's a force of nature.

[Junkhead]

21 minutes ago, Othin said:

Reposition's power depends on how mobile the Reposition-using unit is. It's great on cavalry and fliers, but not on armors.

So literally anything that isn't an Armour. Hell, I actually gave it to my Henry since he just comes with Armour March.

20 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

But anyways, I still believe that Firesweep is a strictly Player Phase playstyle. It's exceptionally easy to counter when the enemy uses it because the AI treats it like any other weapon, but in player hands it's a force of nature.

Can't you say that about basically any setup? I'm not even sure why some people would complain about Blade Tomes, since it's not like the AI knows how to manage beyond the first turn (without Rallies).

[Silverly]

The only things Firesweep weapons have against them are 1) You're a sitting duck in the enemy phase and 2) they can't be refined (thank god). 

But yeah otherwise they're busted for reasons people already mentioned.

[Xenomata]

4 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Can't you say that about basically any setup? I'm not even sure why some people would complain about Blade Tomes, since it's not like the AI knows how to manage beyond the first turn (without Rallies).

Technically yes, but the AI is also VERY assist-happy and the untrained player may be unable to know what the enemy will do next. And on Defense teams with even one dancer, what happens will depend entirely on which unit moves first, if the first unit wasn't the dancer.

...from my experience anyways.

[Hilda]

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Doesn't matter that you have no A-slot when you have more stats than Ryoma and Ike anyway! And a Special that rivals Ignis in damage.

Ayra's Special is beyond broken in all terms, even more so coupled with the stat spread.

I encountered today an Ayra +10 in my Arena run that ran:
Wo Dao+ augmented with the attack path.
Regnal Astra
Distant Counter
Vantage
Flexible

This was with a infantery pulse Team, which means her special was ready. none of my units could attack her
Clair woudl get one shot if she would attack her or gets attacked (and she is a blue unit, but has crappy defense)
Brave Ike welp... Green unit, looked also bad for him
Sigurd... he would have survived with the Sword Breaker skill if he wouldnt have been a -HP nature (1 HP left) -_- or would have run Close Defense instead of Distant Counter(she basicly dealt to him 41 dmg which was his HP...), even then he would have lost due to Ayra getting constant buffs. And i couldnt tackle the Team behind because welp... Repostion hell from Ayra herself.
Sadly Azama wasnt there to deal with this situation because he got swaped out for Bonus unit Olivia, but even then the room was to small to operate.

mind you all +10 It was literally the pita and oh shit moment... and this was on the map with the 2 ships where you have literally no fucking space ot avoid. I tried working aroudn it but at some point i was basicly cornered. I managed even to get Clairs iceberg ready, because it actually allows me to one shot Ayra with it, but behold... the upgrade from The Wo dao+ also gives 5 HP which put Ayras HP above the threshold to oneshot her (she survives with 4 HP left)

Edited December 12, 2017 by Hilda

[Junkhead]

6 minutes ago, Hilda said:

mind you all +10 It was literally the pita and oh shit moment... and this was on the map with the 2 ships where you have literally no fucking space ot avoid. I tried working aroudn it but at some point i was basicly cornered. I managed even to get Clairs iceberg ready, because it actually allows me to one shot Ayra with it, but behold... the upgrade from The Wo dao+ also gives 5 HP which put Ayras HP above the threshold to oneshot her (she survives with 4 HP left)

Good fuckin' Lord.

[Ciarre]

I see more people are seeing the light of wo dao+ Ayra ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)