valter Valter: Dark Moonstone (WIP; retooling)

[BANRYU]

Valter: Dark Moonstone

The creeper that everyone loves or loves to hate makes for quite a unique unit in the meta of Heroes, perhaps most comparable to Tana, who is also a lance flier packing a legendary weapon that can fluctuate between speedy and tank roles... Unlike Tana however, who is built for speed yet whose weapon lets her tank, Valter is built more as a tank whose weapon is inclined for a speedy role and the recoil of which is somewhat counterintuitive to tanking, making him strange and awkward when it comes to fine-tuning his build-- even more so given he has no access to IV variation. Despite this, there are definitely ways to make an effective and versatile unit out of Valter, whether his default kit is expanded on to give him extra speed or to dedicate him to being a real tank. 

Level 40 stats:
HP: 42
Atk: 32
Spd: 31
Def: 34
Res: 19
Total: 158

Default skills:
Weapon: Cursed Lance
Assist: --
Special: Luna
Passive A: Darting Blow
Passive B: --
Passive C: Panic Ploy

---

 
Apex Predator (player phase focus)
*Optimal Build*, *High Investment*, General Use, Arena Offense/Defense, Chain modes

Spoiler

Stat Spread: 42 HP | 50 Atk | 33 Spd | 34 Def | 19 Res
 - Life and Death: 42 HP | 55 Atk | 38 Spd | 29 Def | 14 Res

Weapon: Cursed Lance
Assist: Reposition / Swap
Special: Draconic Aura / Dragon Fang
Passive A: Brazen Atk/Spd 3* / Life and Death 3
Passive B: Desperation 3 / Lancebreaker / Escape Route 3
Passive C: Threaten Defense 3 / Threaten Atk 3 / flexible
Sacred Seal: Heavy Blade 3

- Brazen Atk/Spd synergizes very well with Desp, gives best boosts
- Lancebreaker is actually the best B-skill for all builds so long as they in range (problem is most of them won't be for more than a round or two)
- Lancebreaker better for non-flier teams, Desp better for Goad stacking Flier teams
- Escape Route good goading flier teams, easy to get in and out of danger for sniping kills
- Draconic Aura better with Desperation active, Dragon Fang better before it's active
- LnD + Dragon Fang + Lancebreaker = best results pre-injury, LnDesp + DA = best results during Desp
- for non-flier teams, Bonfire + Desperation does best (if Valter can get low enough Vengeance outperforms while he's at 1 HP)

Bloodthirsty Beast (enemy phase focus)
*High Investment*, General Use, Arena Offense/Defense, Chain modes

Spoiler

Stat Spread: 42 HP | 50 Atk | 33 Spd | 34 Def | 19 Res

Weapon: Cursed Lance
Assist: Reposition / Swap
Special: Aether / Ignis / Dragon Fang
Passive A: Fierce Stance / Steady Stance / Distant Counter
Passive B: Quick Riposte 2-3 / ??
Passive C: Threaten Atk 3 / flexible
Sacred Seal: Heavy Blade 3 / Iote's Shield

(currently working on calcs and writeup for this build)

(may potentially split into separate builds for DC+Iote and QR Stance)

Defaulter (budget build)
General Use, Arena Offense/Defense, Chain modes

Spoiler

Stat Spread: 42 HP | 50 Atk | 33 Spd | 34 Def | 19 Res
 - (Spd+3) : 42 HP | 50 Atk | 36 Spd | 34 Def | 19 Res
 - (Fury 3 & Spd+3) : 42 HP | 53 Atk | 39 Spd | 37 Def | 22 Res

Weapon: Cursed Lance
Assist: Reposition / Swap
Special: Luna / Bonfire
Passive A: Darting Blow 3 / Fury 3
Passive B: Escape Route 3 / Vantage 3 / Lancebreaker 3 / Desperation 3
Passive C: Panic Ploy 3 / Threaten Defense 3 / Goad Fliers
Sacred Seal: Guidance 3 / Spd+3 / Heavy Blade 3 / flexible

Despite his low base Spd, Valter can actually still make good use of it if he sticks with some of his default skills and focuses on pumping it up, making for a surprisingly effective offensive presence on player phase with relatively little investment. Cursed Lance, Luna, and Darting Blow are all perfectly solid options to stick with, and while it won't be activating very often given his weapon's recoil, it's worth noting that the most threatening units when buffed-- Blade tomes mages-- frequently have very low HP stats, making it relatively easy for him to position himself to Panic them early in the match. Threaten Defense is a great universal alternative if it's found to be unneeded, as is Guidance for extra utility on any non-flier teams. 

After that, and a positioning Assist, Valter has a fairly diverse selection of options to round out his B-skill slot: Escape Route synergizes well with his weapon's recoil and his flier movement, and if he takes some damage he will frequently be hitting ER range after one or two rounds of combat, letting him zip around the map to hide his injured hide in safety before zooming back to finish off foes. Vantage is similarly useful if ranged units are not a problem, and activates quickly and often due to his tanky build and high rate of recoil. Lancebreaker is a solid choice for expanding his offensive coverage, combining well with his Killer effect and Luna to let Valter more easily defeat the likes of Effie, Ephraim, Brave Lucina, and so forth--  though its HP requirement hurts it as an option somewhat, since it won't be active for very long. (Still, if said lancer is the first target he engages, he may not need it for very long since most teams don't use more than one of the same weapon type.) And lastly, Desperation is great for builds that pump his speed up; most notably, it is the recommended skill for partnering with the combination of Darting Blow and the Spd+3 seal, which gives Valter a very passable 41 Spd when initiating, more than enough to make effective use of Desperation. 

Besides his default skills, Bonfire is a great alternative to Luna if inheritance fodder for it is plentiful enough, working off of his good defense and providing consistent extra damage for him. Fury is a skill that many players like to use on Valter in order to stack his Speed up alongside his weapon's buffs and quicker put him in range of Desperation or Vantage; this CAN work fairly well if Valter wants to be a short-term strike force for shorter-term maps and modes, though 10 recoil for every round of combat is a huge damper on his longevity, and even with the +Spd seal he can only hit 39 Spd, which can be very good with Goad Fliers support and even Vengeance as a special due to how quickly his HP drops, but outside of Flier teams it doesn't benefit him as much as his other skills, or as it would on other units. 

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by BANRYU

[BANRYU]

Aight, this mofe is all set and ready to go. I'm open to other build suggestions, but as far as I know this is basically all he really needs (the budget build encompasses a lot of his potential options... if it's perhaps TOO extensive maybe I can split it up? But none of those options are particularly costly so I figured it was fine). 

[mampfoid]

Thanks for the analysis, you really put some effort in these! 

I would mention Brash Assault Seal, because of its synergy with 10 HP after fight damage (Fury/Cursed Lance) and Desperation. 

[XRay]

I do not think Heavy Blade and Aether are ever optimal. Valter's kill count actually decreases with that set up, even while hogging a Sacred Seal. Gimping his first round of combat for a later round of combat is never a good idea in my opinion. If you are claiming a build is optimal, most players would assume it either has superior performance (Blárblade Reinhardt) or a really high return on investment (Death Blow Reinhardt).

Whatever high cool down Special a player is trying to activate with Heavy Blade, activating a lower cool down Special and using an A slot offensive stat boost together is much better. Heavy Blade is as bad as Bracing Blow because there are so much better alternatives.

Aether is unsustainable on a Player Phase unit because the right skills are not currently available. Additionally, sustainability is not a big issue for Player Phase units because they need to be in HP range to activate Desperation; there is not much difference between ≤ 75% HP and 1 HP if the unit has allies to Assist the unit out of enemy range. Healing is unnecessary in Arena since the battles are over so quickly, and whatever healing the team needs for Tempest Trials is better handled by a dedicated healer.

I would not turn Valter into an Enemy Phase unit. With low Resistance and flier status, he should not attempt to tank ranged units, so that leaves him with Fury and Quick Riposte to tank against melee units. That is a waste of a Valter in my opinion, since his Player Phase set can tackle melee units just as well and he can take on ranged units careless enough to get into range.

Vantage is a niche skill for countering specific threats; it is a bad skill for most units, and even units that can use it well have better set ups to utilize. General purpose Enemy Phase units should not run Vantage because Quick Riposte exists. Unless you need Valter to counter a specific threat, I would not recommend Vantage.

Valter
Vanilla
Player Phase 111:4:80

Valter
Cursed Lance, Bonfire
Heavy Blade, Lancebreaker
Attack +3
Player Phase: 98:6:91
Player Phase [Aether]  81:6:108

[bottlegnomes]

Just ran some calcs on Kagerochart, and L&D3/Desperation 3/+3 spd ss/Moonbow Valter actually did the best of the couple I tried. The drop in defenses doesn't actually seem to affect his combat provided he's engaging. He got an additional 10 victories 148:4:38 vs Darting Blow 3 138:4:48. In desperation range, he takes more losses, 17 vs 7, but gets a bigger wins lead 148 vs 137.

Brash assault seems like it's better used on other characters IMO. Yeah, Valter's not super fast, but he's got enough speed that with investment he can double fairly reasonably. It seems like you'd be better off giving him a speed seal or QP or something that helps him from the jump.

Actually just ran lancebreaker and that did the best at full health and marginally better at desperation range. Swordbreaker seems to help more at 75% health, but not by much and does worse than LB at 100% health.

On a side note, can people not equip the breakers for the weapon type that they have WTD against? Was going to try Valter with Axe Breaker, but it wouldn't let me pick it.

[XRay]

19 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

On a side note, can people not equip the breakers for the weapon type that they have WTD against? Was going to try Valter with Axe Breaker, but it wouldn't let me pick it.

Units cannot equip Breakers that they are weak against.

Red units cannot equip Lancebreaker or B Tomebreaker.
Blue units cannot equip Axebreaker or G Tomebreaker.
Green units cannot equip Swordbreaker or R Tomebreaker.
Additionally, fliers cannot equip Bowbreaker.

[bottlegnomes]

6 minutes ago, XRay said:

Units cannot equip Breakers that they are weak against.

Red units cannot equip Lancebreaker or B Tomebreaker.
Blue units cannot equip Axebreaker or G Tomebreaker.
Green units cannot equip Swordbreaker or R Tomebreaker.
Additionally, fliers cannot equip Bowbreaker.

Huh, in all the months I've been playing this game I never realized that. I feel like an idiot  

I always just thought people didn't equip them because it was impractical since you only had 0.8x attack anyway and the concern was more with guaranteeing increased damage, i.e. doubling, rather than negating getting doubled.

Edited December 16, 2017 by bottlegnomes

[BANRYU]

On 12/15/2017 at 2:17 PM, mampfoid said:

Thanks for the analysis, you really put some effort in these! 

I would mention Brash Assault Seal, because of its synergy with 10 HP after fight damage (Fury/Cursed Lance) and Desperation. 

Ah that is a good one too, not sure why I didn't think of that. Thanks for the suggestion. 

19 hours ago, XRay said:

I do not think Heavy Blade and Aether are ever optimal. Valter's kill count actually decreases with that set up, even while hogging a Sacred Seal. Gimping his first round of combat for a later round of combat is never a good idea in my opinion. If you are claiming a build is optimal, most players would assume it either has superior performance (Blárblade Reinhardt) or a really high return on investment (Death Blow Reinhardt).

Whatever high cool down Special a player is trying to activate with Heavy Blade, activating a lower cool down Special and using an A slot offensive stat boost together is much better. Heavy Blade is as bad as Bracing Blow because there are so much better alternatives.

Aether is unsustainable on a Player Phase unit because the right skills are not currently available. Additionally, sustainability is not a big issue for Player Phase units because they need to be in HP range to activate Desperation; there is not much difference between ≤ 75% HP and 1 HP if the unit has allies to Assist the unit out of enemy range. Healing is unnecessary in Arena since the battles are over so quickly, and whatever healing the team needs for Tempest Trials is better handled by a dedicated healer.

I would not turn Valter into an Enemy Phase unit. With low Resistance and flier status, he should not attempt to tank ranged units, so that leaves him with Fury and Quick Riposte to tank against melee units. That is a waste of a Valter in my opinion, since his Player Phase set can tackle melee units just as well and he can take on ranged units careless enough to get into range.

Vantage is a niche skill for countering specific threats; it is a bad skill for most units, and even units that can use it well have better set ups to utilize. General purpose Enemy Phase units should not run Vantage because Quick Riposte exists. Unless you need Valter to counter a specific threat, I would not recommend Vantage.

Valter
Vanilla
Player Phase 111:4:80

Valter
Cursed Lance, Bonfire
Heavy Blade, Lancebreaker
Attack +3
Player Phase: 98:6:91
Player Phase [Aether]  81:6:108

....hmm. You may have a point there. I was thinking Aether and Heavy Blade were the only way to give him any real longevity in battles while functioning as an enemy phase unit, something his stats seem like they're begging him to do, but I suppose the only setting that's particularly applicable are chain/endurance modes, and indeed yeah the ORKO thing is always preferable for the tougher short-term modes. I will say that the sim results aren't necessarily always everything unless you're looking at multiple variations on IVs, skills like Fury/Steady Breath and seals that pump up speed or defensive stats, etc; oftentimes I've found it makes a big difference between what's optimal against vanilla defaults and what's optimal against built threats. 

But to be totally fair, I didn't really look at that myself either for this stuff; I suppose I assumed my firsthand experience using him (I've been super indecisive with him and thus put a LOT of different B-skills on him to test out, as well as the Heavyblade + Aether set) would be enough, but clearly that was an overly hubritious thought haha. 

I suppose I've got a bit of work to do retooling this, then. I'll revamp both sets when I have a chance to sit down with the sims for a while to test specific matchups as well as en masse. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by BANRYU

[BANRYU]

Okay I'm still currently working on this; needless to say, with the existence of the Heavy Blade seal, there is quite a bit of work to do on the optimal set, as well as potentially any other sets to be done; here is what I'm considering at the moment as far as changes to the current stuff: 

• Bonfire as primary slash in front of Aether (still mentioned since it's good for the long-term modes and reinforcement maps IMO) for the optimal set
• Brazen Atk/Def and Atk/Spd as the primary options on the optimal set, with Heavy Blade as the seal
• A new build with Iote's Shield, like potentially comboing Heavy Blade with Iote seal or vice versa; maybe DC Iote?
• budget build unlikely to change much

I'm willing to take suggestions on other sets as well; Fury to stack stats as well as recoil is one option that a lot of people seem to like, but I'm not convinced that it's worth sacrificing his bulk when he doesn't even hit a great speed threshold with it so I would need to be sold on that one. 

There aren't any other weapons he should consider using besides his own, are there? :0 I think his Res is too low for Berkut's Lance to help him much and most other weapons would just be inferior versions of his own...

Edited January 6, 2018 by BANRYU

[XRay]

28 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Bonfire as primary slash in front of Aether (still mentioned since it's good for the long-term modes and reinforcement maps IMO) for the optimal set

33 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Brazen Atk/Def and Atk/Spd as the primary options on the optimal set, with Heavy Blade as the seal

I would run Dragon Fang or Ignis rather than Aether for optimal performance for short term modes, since those two can activate during the first round of combat. I would also put Galeforce in there too; it may help lower your turn count on Tempest Trials, although he may have trouble killing units without a damage Special. You may also want to consider Luna and Bonfire for Desperation sets since Valter can activate them every time he initiates if he doubles.

I do not think Brazen Atk/Def works too well on Valter since he needs Speed more than he needs Defense. Player Phase units in general benefit little from boosting their HP, Defense, or Resistance.

29 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

A new build with Iote's Shield, like potentially comboing Heavy Blade with Iote seal or vice versa; maybe DC Iote?

Distant Counter-Iote's Shield sounds good. You might want to check if he can stand up to common Brave Bow archers though, since if he cannot handle them well, he will probably need to specialize against them with Bowbreaker instead of running Quick Riposte, which many players might not want to do since there are so many better dedicated archer counters out there.

I do not think Heavy Blade-Iote's Shield is a good idea though, as his Attack is pretty low without an A skill stat boost and he does not have access to +Atk natures as a Grand Hero Battle unit.

 

[LordFrigid]

I’m interested as to your thoughts on a dedicated Galeforce set (Cursed Lance, LaD, Desperation, Heavy Blade) for Flier team usage. I run that on a +Atk Tana on a non-Flier Team (albeit with a Spd-refined Slaying Lance), with +3/3 offensive buff support (59/47 offenses when buffed...if she were +0). With Hone Fliers, Valter’s offenses would be 61/44.

~

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Distant Counter-Iote's Shield sounds good. You might want to check if he can stand up to common Brave Bow archers though, since if he cannot handle them well, he will probably need to specialize against them with Bowbreaker instead of running Quick Riposte, which many players might not want to do since there are so many better dedicated archer counters out there.

Fliers can’t inherit Bowbreaker.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

I do not think Heavy Blade-Iote's Shield is a good idea though, as his Attack is pretty low without an A skill stat boost and he does not have access to +Atk natures as a Grand Hero Battle unit.

Adding on to this, I think of Iote’s Shield as a defensive option meant to be used on fliers intended to counterattack & KO enemy bow users. You might be able to use Heavy Blade without an Atk-boosting A Passive/Seal on a team with a Flier support structure, but idk if I’d recommend it, not having researched it at all.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, LordFrigid said:

Fliers can’t inherit Bowbreaker.

Ah yes. I keep forgetting. He may need to rely on Def Tactic or Fortify Fliers to reliably tank Brave Bow archers then.

Edited January 6, 2018 by XRay

[BANRYU]

On 1/5/2018 at 7:48 PM, XRay said:

I would run Dragon Fang or Ignis rather than Aether for optimal performance for short term modes, since those two can activate during the first round of combat. I would also put Galeforce in there too; it may help lower your turn count on Tempest Trials, although he may have trouble killing units without a damage Special. You may also want to consider Luna and Bonfire for Desperation sets since Valter can activate them every time he initiates if he doubles.

I do not think Brazen Atk/Def works too well on Valter since he needs Speed more than he needs Defense. Player Phase units in general benefit little from boosting their HP, Defense, or Resistance.

Distant Counter-Iote's Shield sounds good. You might want to check if he can stand up to common Brave Bow archers though, since if he cannot handle them well, he will probably need to specialize against them with Bowbreaker instead of running Quick Riposte, which many players might not want to do since there are so many better dedicated archer counters out there.

I do not think Heavy Blade-Iote's Shield is a good idea though, as his Attack is pretty low without an A skill stat boost and he does not have access to +Atk natures as a Grand Hero Battle unit.

Mm yeah, DF and Ignis sound like viable additions, good point. Galeforce I'm less sold on, since his speed isn't great and I have a hard time seeing him proc it particularly often without QR or a breaker, unless he's running Darting + a team of Goaders. 

Brazen AtkSpd would really only work with goad-stacking teammates as well, I think; even with his weapon boosts he can barely top 40 Spd which is kind of the barest minimum for a unit that wants to be consistently doubling most things. With Goads AND Brazen it's a significantly different story... so if I'm mathing correctly we're looking at 33 (base w/ weapon) + 7 (brazen) + up to 12 (3 goads)-- and 52 is pretty terrifying yeah. 

So yes, I would say Brazen AtkSpd is definitely the way to go for a player phase Valter given how well it synergizes with him. I think you're right about Brazen AtkDef now that I actually remember how it works; the HP window between its 80%- and QR's 70%+ is a very narrow window to operate in so probably not worth it. I might take a look at something like Fierce/Steady Stance + QR + QP Aether because I'm convinced that his tanky statline has to be good for SOMETHING on EP, but maybe I'm going about this wrong and he should be allowed to focus on PP or even do both. Even my budget Darting + ER Valter proved pretty good at tanking without specific skills for it. DC-QR-Iote might be the way to go for EP but I'll work some stuff out. 

On 1/5/2018 at 10:02 PM, LordFrigid said:

I’m interested as to your thoughts on a dedicated Galeforce set (Cursed Lance, LaD, Desperation, Heavy Blade) for Flier team usage. I run that on a +Atk Tana on a non-Flier Team (albeit with a Spd-refined Slaying Lance), with +3/3 offensive buff support (59/47 offenses when buffed...if she were +0). With Hone Fliers, Valter’s offenses would be 61/44.

~

Fliers can’t inherit Bowbreaker.

Adding on to this, I think of Iote’s Shield as a defensive option meant to be used on fliers intended to counterattack & KO enemy bow users. You might be able to use Heavy Blade without an Atk-boosting A Passive/Seal on a team with a Flier support structure, but idk if I’d recommend it, not having researched it at all.

Tana is substantially faster than Valter and I'm not really a fan of the idea of sacking Valter's pretty good bulk more than his weapon already will through skills like Fury and LaD. But, I will at least give it a chance and calc it out, test it against Brazen Desperation or whatever I work out for his main build. As it is, 44 Speed is pretty good, but not quite what I consider to be cutting it. But I'll give it a shot. 

 

EDIT: OP is updated with the skills I plan to run testing for; still willing to take suggestions on other skills or sets, or if anyone has any firsthand footage or experience of any specific Valter builds I'm sure that would also help. Would that I could be the lone pioneer, but with the introduction of the Heavy Blade seal + Xmas banner,  his optimal skills are once again beyond my reach lol. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by BANRYU