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Smash 5: What if/Wants discussion


Jedi
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This will be a general thread, which the purpose of is discussing various what ifs about Smash 5 and stuff people want. 

As we know, Sakurai stresses himself out massively, I'm wondering whats going to happen if he eventually passes on the torch to some other dev, who would have completely different thought processes and ways he/she would like to do things, also they'd have very big shoes to fill. 

As for general things i'd like to see, I propose we expand on the Omega stages, and add a Gamma to each stage as well, which would have the layout of Battlefield, arguably the most neutral stage in Smash. FD is a bit of a meme, but isn't quite as neutral ground. 

In terms of characters, honestly I wouldn't mind us getting only a few newbies and keeping the cast we have, giving Lucina and Dark Pit more diverse movesets, maybe a little more with Doc but his playstyle already is quite different from normal Mario. 3rd party people would probably all get the ok to stay, although they'd have to figure out how to one up Cloud in terms of a new 3rd party dude.

I kinda doubt we'd see more FE or Mario characters this time around, but i've been proven wrong in the past. 

While Smash 4's general balance was fairly ok, I think we need more of an emphasis on offense, its not Brawl but it still has its bouts where timing out or being entirely defensive are not only optimal but super disabling in certain match ups.

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If you're going to start giving characters actual alt costumes like Bayonetta and Cloud got, can we extend that to some other characters? Link and Mario now have lots of outfits to choose from, the FE characters could have their promotions and stuff, Samus could get her different power suits, and so on. These palette swaps are kinda boring at this point, especially when as I said, Bayonetta and Cloud got special treatment for whatever reason.

Make Daisy her own model instead of a Peach palette, even if she still stays a Peach alt. I despise Peach, and I love Daisy. I'd like to use Daisy without having to technically play as my most hated princess.

Also, give Luigi a Mr. L alt. PLEASE!

Bring back a story mode like Brawl had. But this time add some character interactions. They'd probably be so amusing to see!

Edited by Anacybele
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Smash 4 had just about everything I could ask for in terms of extras and roster size and such, so really there are only two big things I'd like changed. First, probably the more debatable of the two, game speed that's comparable to Melee and Project M. I don't care about playing competitively or high level techniques, I just want that kind of speed and flow to the gameplay back. The second thing I'd like, and one I think everyone could agree on, really good online play. Not just improved online, not just decent online, really good online.

Aside from that I'd just want some smaller changes, like instead of having omega stages we can just turn off stage hazards, or a better menu layout cause in Smash 4 it feels like they just put stuff on the screen and in other menus at random.

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Competitive gameplay concerns

Spoiler

 

I loved Bowser's rework most of all. Hoping Ganondorf gets that much attention.

Fix ledge options so that the dude recovering is more at risk. I feel like you have too many viable options in Smash 4 once you grab the ledge. This has really been an issue since Melee, but Brawl and Smash 4 have the generous ledge snap windows on recovery moves. As well as recovery moves just being all around way too good when combined with the slow fall speeds. But focusing on Smash 4, the four ledge options just give you too many invulnerability frames, and the position of characters at their point of vulnerability with each option is too wide spread. Attacks with long lasting hitboxes just aren't wide enough to cover them all, you've gotta read something or go for a ledge trump mixup that is not at all guaranteed. I prefer ledge trumps to the ledge hogging of previous games, but there needs to be more nuance if you want to avoid having this mechanic too strong or too weak. Ledge hogging is so strong that it feels unfair and opens up the possibility of infinite stalling, ledge trumps are too weak because the guy recovering can buffer an option past it. There's gotta be a medium design here.

Fix DI. It shouldn't be two different methods depending on vertical and non-vertical knockback angles. DI was so ineffective against vertical moves that those sorts of combo attacks and throws were disproportionately dominant. Making combo games too samey and boring to watch. And non vertical knockback moves were generally ignored if they had no combo or kill potential.

L-cancelling...but nerfed. I love cancelling lag with a timed input. It's like active reloads in a shooter. But cutting landing lag in half is way too much. Cut it by a quarter instead. Make L cancels good, but not so much that casual players feel forced to learn it. Because most of their multiplayer is online with potentially unstable connections.

Make it so characters can fall off ledges when blocking attacks. This will force more ledge play into a match, as well as make it less safe to be on a platform above your opponent. Because in that scenario, holding shield was always great because it's not like they can grab you from down there. And forced tumbles from a platform allow the attacker to start a lock combo.

Fix hitstun cancels. Okay, so they have been improved 1000% since Brawl, but it still seems arbitrary that all characters can throw out an airdodge at this same time frame of ~45 frames after getting launched. It totally dictates what kill setups are guaranteed. And why should Air dodge be the earliest action allowed? Air dodges are really safe and more importantly aren't that big of a commitment for the victim. If you want to keep the idea of hitstun cancelling in Smash, then I propose either limiting air dodges to one use per air time, or creating a new aerial recovery move for this scenario. The aerial recovery would let you dodge right or left (mixups!), but it's limit once per air time (maybe have it consume your double jump as well) and does not allow you access to aerials or specials until you complete the flipping animation. Also, limit its use to when you're launched by attacks that are strong enough they induce tumble. Since air recoveries during low% combos would be Brawl levels of jank.

 

More fun concerns

Spoiler

 

Alternate skins. So many of these characters have alter egos, rivals, or just really cool costumes that could easily be mapped to their models and given unique voice packs and/or sound effects. Smash 4 played with alternate skins a little even going as far as making Alph, but overall I prefer skins over clone characters. Since you have to justify why a clone should exist gameplay-wise, and it gets messy. All three clones of Smash 4 should return as alts. Also, make these skins unlockable. I would rather be unlocking cool aesthetics than gameplay-related collectibles such as custom moves or equipment. You could even sell them as DLC. They already did sell them as DLC with the dumb Mii Fighter outfits.

Bring back stickers, even if there's no stat change element. I just thought it was cool to have us collect official artwork of obscure characters. Quicker to put in a game than crafting a 3D model Trophy. Another statistic to brag about. Sakurai loves bragging about how many things are in his game.

Do Adventure mode again. And I mean the full Brawl treatment. I'd play even if there weren't goofy cutscenes, since the Kirby-esque gameplay is solid. I know in my heart Sakurai sees this type of game mode as an excuse for people to try out every character in the game, communicating to all players just how strong the Smash Bros. roster is. Plus the equipment/stickers concept of building your characters is right at home in this sort of story mode.

Keep the idea of Mii fighters, but don't have their stats change based on obscure Mii statistics. Because of course small miis ended up being the best since they have incredibly high speed stats. Being able to customize their movesets was enough.

Bring back Break the Targets. I loved the character specific stages of 64 and Melee, but I understand designing so many stages for those characters' unique abilities is a gargantuan task as the roster grows and grows. But still, this is a minigame worth keeping and trying to earn high scores in. Target Blast? I think I'll Target Pass.

Make a hazard toggle on the stage select. With hazards turned off, harmful stage elements will not appear or at least not act as a hazard you can interact with. But moving platforms and stage transitions stay.

Character moveset wants: Change Wario's dash attack so it's the shoulder bash from Wario Land, complete with the ability to jump extend it. Similarly, have it so you can jump cancel Donkey Kong's dash attack if you roll off a platform or ledge. Give Samus the ability to crawl, because her version of crawling is going to be moving around in morph ball mode. Maybe incorporate her Ice Beam into an attack as well, like Dtilt.  

Character Newcomer wants: A Rabbid that uses moves reminiscent of Ubisoft franchises such as Assassin's Creed, Watch Dogs, Splinter Cell, etc. He will also dress as those characters as his alternate skins. And have our ARMS representative be Helix. Helix moves like nothing you've seen in Smash. He can squish to a low profile as his crawl. And he can activate a high profile by holding the jump button. High profile is neat as it will allow him to attack at short hop height for incredible anti-air defense. And letting go of the jump button makes him jump just like in ARMS.

 

Most of these are assuming Smash 5 is a totally new game. I wouldn't make most of these demands if it was just a Smash 4 port.

I have one more want when it comes Smash 5, regarding it's announcement. Here's my vision: It's April. Sometime soon after Nintendo has unveiled and launched Virtual Console for Switch. The Direct, scheduled for, let's say April 30th, has a mystery theme.

-It opens with Sakurai in his home office, playing Smash 64 on the TV. Camera pan to the joycons in his hands. He greets us and says Smash 64 is out now for Virtual Console. Shadow Drop! But this announcement mellows quickly as Sakurai gives a heartwarming story about Smash 64's development. Yes, you will tear up when he mentions Iwata's involvement in the project. But it doesn't end there.

-There's a knock on the door, he opens it. It's a Melee veteran, let's say Ken since he seems to always be available. Ken's got his GC controller, plugs it in alongside Sakurai's in the GC adapter. As they play Melee, Sakurai talks about how much it means to him that people are still playing this game for so many years. Sakurai gets a text, whoops, gotta get to work. See ya Ken, Melee arrives on Virtual Console in early June. Gamecube adapter support is promised along with new availability in stores. Awkwardness when you realize Ken was left alone in Sakurai's home (?)

-Sakurai's at a business meeting, demoing Brawl on the Switch hardware, promising a Fall VC release. And that's all the time you get dedicated to Brawl. Reggie's at the meeting, holds his hand up. "And Smash 4?" Reggie come on, Sakurai can't speak English. But whatever, Sakurai understands and says it's coming by the end of the year with all the DLC packed in at no additional charge. Also, that 3DS App that lets you use your 3DS as a controller will work. 8 player smash is possible, but requires at least two Switch systems for pairing up to 8 sets of joy-con based controllers. Koizumi is in the room, the new hotshot face of Switch. "Excellent, Sakurai-san, but I understand you've been hard at work on your next project?". Sakurai's smug face hardens. He looks around the room, picks up the Switch from its dock, that cutting sound at the start of every Smash reveal trailer is heard as we CUT TO BLACK NOOOOO. The movie is over. The rest of the Direct is just a summary of these releases. No more word on Smash 5 because it's going to be the finale of Nintendo's E3 presentation.

Edited by Glennstavos
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I want a new adventure mode ala subspace emissary that's more ambitious in terms of story and mechanics. 

More enemies and bosses from different games instead of the Kid Icarus rejects that populated subspace. They could play around with this like only being able to hurt Mechon if Shulk is in your party or including the Orne's from Kid Icarus that can kill in one hit.

I'd like the story to play around with the different ways Nintendo handles it story. Pit could be the viewpoint characters since he's the most talkative and expressive one, as well as nerdy enough to handle himself around most ninty villains. Characters like Mario or Link would just communicate in their regular grunting while characters like Pit, Lucina or Shulk could do the talking.

They already got character models from the like of Ghirahim and Metal face so with some expanding it would be easy to include them as bosses.

I also want Ganondorf to drop the whole Falcondorf thing and get his own moveset based on magic. I do want them to retain the concept of him being an extreme hard hitter that can turn the match in just two hits

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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I could see some third-party characters return, such as Sonic, Pac-Man, and Mega Man, but not others like Cloud and Bayonetta. (okay, maybe her) Meanwhile, the third-party character I want to see could have a diverse moveset, but no chance of appearing in Smash. I mean, a representative from Bethesda.

One possible new character could be Rayman, seeing how Ubisoft collaborated with Nintendo on Mario + Rabbids. Some Nintendo characters I want to see are Isaac from Golden Sun and possibly a representative from Advance Wars. Hector would be great too. Hard hitting attacks, heavy weight, ranged attacks with Hand Axe, all that. However, he would be slow.

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That Gamma Stage idea sounds real neat. They also need to rework some of the Omega Stages. Some of them had walls on the sides you could cling on, others were just a floating platform in the vein of FD. The former could give characters with wall clings/jumps (such as Diddy Kong) an unfair advantage.

Bring back Adventure Mode/SSE/Smash Run, one of those three. All three are fun but i would like an actual story mode.

In terms of characters, Xenoblade Chronicles 2 makes me really want Rex in Smash.

I'm hoping the Challenges are more.....Challenging. Because most Smash 4 Challenges were pretty easy.

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So whenever they make smash 5 or port smash 4 this is what I want.

Roster: (Bolded when a new character followed by reasoning) Basically agreeing with the costume ideas stated above. A few new characters probably so I'm saying Inklings, Impa (she is the next major Zelda character not already in the game, well maybe Tingle but Impa has had more appearances then him, plus as much as I love Fire Emblem, it having more reps then Zelda is wrong in my eyes, even though I find most of the FE cast as justifiable. Though Lucina could be worked on in terms of moves, I get what they were going for with her design), I honestly wouldn't mind another Kid Icarus rep, they'll probably end up adding Waluigi and Daisy to the mario roster besides cameos and assists, Probably Rex in the game but it'd be cool for his moveset since what I've seen of xenoblade 2 is switching blades gives him a unique weapon and moveset, maybe not the full system in smash, but have it work similar to Shulk's monado but instead of stats persay, it's weapon, like weapon attack speed, weapon range, power, or maybe an draining effect or something. Also have it aesthetically change Rex's blade to a different color to represent the blade, Red for Pyra (default), Green for Mythra, Blue and Yellow for other blades, and maybe one other. I haven't played Xenoblade 2 so this idea could be terrible. Also another Pokemon character. Beyond these, (besides the Kid Icarus one which would need an major game coming out to be relevant), if they revive Golden Sun (Isaac could easily fill the void left by Cloud if Cloud didn't get in again, change up his moveset and then you have a character), and then maybe a character or two from more obscure Nintendo series (Maybe Layton, with Lady Layton skin or something, Ace Attorney rep, probably Phoenix (I know it's by Capcom but published mostly on Nintendo) and that's it for this part) and then for 3rd party Reiji Arisu and Xiamou (I don't care if these two are mostly unknown or a bit more adult themed, but besides their awesome fighting styles and Xiamou's references to all things nerd culture, they are the King and Queen of crossover games, their record is Namco x Capcom, appearing in two Super Robot Wars games (specifically focused on characters visiting alternate universes all the time), and both Project X games, which have also included Mega-Man X (costume in smash), Ryu, Akira (he was a costume in smash), Heihachi (another costumes), A original Xenoblade character (IF you go play Project X Zone 2, please play through most of Xenoblade 1 as to avoid spoilers), and also CHROM AND LUCINA (with Tiki cameo), so they've met characters that have appeared in Smash and have basically been the figureheads of their own crossover series, of which the series involved go from massive (Street Fighter, Mega-Man, Tales of) to unheard of (If you've heard of Sakura Wars, Valkyria Chronicles, Xenosaga, the Legend of Valkyrie, God Eater, and Super Robot Wars then you probably know how obscure these series are)), anyways besides these 2, Shovel Knight and Shantae (basically repping the indie industry), and probably others I can't think of.

Gameplay: I'm fine with the speed of smash 4, but stage hazards need to have an option. Also I like the features for new stages mentioned above.

Features: tbh I don't get a story mode, smash is all about fighting each other as Nintendos greats+guests. But I guess a story mode would be nice, also Pit leading it would be glorious

@Glennstavos, that idea for it being presented sounds amazing and something they would do, but I don't think this coming year it'll happen..

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I'm seeing a lot of talk about bringing back an adventure mode/subspace emissary and while I would like like to see something like that return I think there's actually another way to create fun character interactions. They should give every character their own classic/arcade mode endings not too dissimilar to other more traditional fighting games and have the characters crossover and interact that way. I imagine it would work like the endings in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 only with Nintendo characters.

As for character that could be in the game, I'm going to abstain from any predictions until the game is actually announced, but I will say that we really need to cut back on some of these clone characters. I don't mind a few clones in my fighting games, but Smash Bros. 4 I'd say has a little too many that just don't feel different enough for my tastes.

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14 hours ago, Jedi said:


I kinda doubt we'd see more FE or Mario characters this time around, but i've been proven wrong in the past. 

 

what? No. Noooo. we need moar FE. Camilla isn;t a character yet.

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7 hours ago, Gemma said:

what? No. Noooo. we need moar FE. Camilla isn;t a character yet.

Keep dreaming Gemma :p, also I don't think she's joke character enough for you to use!

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4 hours ago, Jedi said:

Keep dreaming Gemma :p, also I don't think she's joke character enough for you to use!

Haha, no, that was... I'm sorry.

She's totally a joke character tho, u kiddin'?

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5 minutes ago, Gemma said:

Haha, no, that was... I'm sorry.

She's totally a joke character tho, u kiddin'?

Haha i'm kidding with you doofus.

Sure but she isn't on the same tier as your KoF goons!

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3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Haha i'm kidding with you doofus.

Sure but she isn't on the same tier as your KoF goons!

A boob seatbelt or a gigantic prisoner's ball and chain. Pick your poison.

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If any newcomers I'd predict Inkling, Spring Man, Captain Toad, Rex and Pyra, a Gen VIII Pokemon, potentially the FE16 protagonist, and some 3rd parties like Rayman or maybe P5 Joker.

With stages I like the idea of Gamma stages using the Battlefield layout. I think the Subspace Emissary was fun, though it seems like they prefer working on high quality trailers for characters instead. It will be interesting to see where they would take things if/when it is revealed, but before SSB5 I feel like Sakurai will have something different to reveal next year or whenever.

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bring dashdancing back, cut landing lag, buff hitstun and damage, remove rage, change omegas to either triplats or hazardless versions instead of FD reskins, bring back momentum retention, change ledge mechanics to be less forgiving

 

i think that'd be a good midway point for melee and smash 4. it wouldn't be as technical as melee, but it would be easy to get into and still flow quickly

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  • 5 weeks later...

Characters:

Since I'm still guessing we'll be getting an enhanced Smash 4 port, every Smash 4 fighter should return. Cutting them would likely be more work than just leaving them in anyway. The one possible exception is Cloud since it seems like there may have been licensing issues, but they would likely do what they need to to keep him in.

For newcomers, Inkling is basically a no-brainer. After that, I don't really have any predictions, but I'd personally like to see Dixie Kong and Shantae in. Since we always get a new Pokemon, Decidueye would be my choice there. I'm 50/50 on an Arms character getting in (Nintendo pushed it, but it didn't exactly make waves), and I don't want to see a Xenoblade 2 character anywhere near the Smash roster. And bring back Wolf and Ice Climbers.

More alts would also be great, and I imagine would be easier than most other things, especially since team color isn't even based on outfit color anymore. Really dive into the history of these characters for new costumes. Give FE characters promoted costumes, give Mario his vacation shirt from Sunshine, Toon Link his Windwaker pajamas, Samus her actual light and dark suit (and others), etc. Giving every fighter at least 1 or 2 special outfits like this (and some already have them) would probably even be better than fighter #65, if it came down to that.

And for the love of god make female Corrin the default.

Stages:

I'd like to see them all return, but I fear that they may think the stage selection screen could end up too bloated and cut a few. I think we'll definitely see new stages from Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, and Splatoon, and others could depend on what newcomers arrive.

Omega stages should stay, but it would be nice if we could also get Battlefield versions, and For Glory would just pick one at random.

Single player:

Needs to exist. Well, it doesn't really need to be "single" player, but a primary mode that can be done solo or with one other person like Subspace Emissary. I highly doubt we'll get something as expansive as SSE, but a mix of that and Melee's adventure mode could work pretty well. But really, anything is better than Smash Tour.

If it wouldn't be too difficult, Smash Run would be nice to see back, and since it will be on a more powerful console, it would be nice if you could actually see other players.

Miscellaneous:

I think the general flow of gameplay is pretty solid as-is in Smash 4. I can't think of anything I want to change about it aside from fixing some of the wonky hitboxes and knockback properties on certain attacks.

Custom moves, though. I really love them, but their implementation was pretty awful. Have them all available right away, have them for everyone, and allow them to be selected at character selection instead of forcing us to make a custom build. And let us use them online with anyone.

Make saving/uploading replays better. It really sucked every time the game was updated to lose all of my replays. It would also be nice to let us snip replays since it's often one particular moment that was worth saving, not the whole match.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Honestly in my book Smash 4 was really good I'm not sure what else there is to add.  Obviously some balancing tweaks here and there but really where else could we go?  We could get a more complex and established combo system but then it would be more like other 2D fighters like Street Fighter which is not really what Smash is about.  Maybe more single player modes?  Something I'd like to see on the Switch in general and something that Smash is great for would be an achievement system that displays with your profile.  Could be everything from single player challenges to winning a certain amount online matches in a row.  Might be neat.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would want to see more characters in it here's a list of new  characters: Lyn, Dry Bowser, Impa, Daisy, Demise from Skyward Sword, Anna, Alm, Celica, and Tiki.

Here's new stages I would want to see Hyrule Castle as it appears in BOTW, Rigel Castle, Zofia Castle, and Greith's Citadel.

I would like to see an Adventure mode harder than the one in Brawl, a totally new Classic mode because Smash 4 ruined it in my opinion. I also want to see universal Amiibo support that Smash 4 unfortunately lacked, the Amiibos of anybody not on the roster would give you random stuff. I would like to see All-Star Mode to the way it was before Smash 4. I would want these characters making a return from Melee and Brawl: Young Link, Wolf, and Solid Snake. 

That is what I want to see in Smash 5.

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What with the rumours of a Smash half sequel coming out this year, I'm starting to feel that hype building up again. 

The last games were great and Sakurai has done an amazing job with the series, but I hope with the Switch release they focus on cutting gimmicks and instead make the fighting mode the best it can be. I have a feeling Sakurai won't be as involved, which may not be a totally bad thing, but I do hope he continues to oversee the series.

For the roster, I would be fine if it was largely the same as it is now, plus Ice Climbers, Wolf, and a few crucial newcomers (namely, imo: Inklings, Pyra/Mythra, a new Pokemon, and one or two others from upcoming games). It wouldn't be nearly as many new characters this time but they could use that effort to fine tune the existing roster, further de-clone similar movesets, add more alts, and perfect the game mechanics. Cuts are always tricky and speculation tends to be personal; I would be fine with a few.

For stages I hope they aren't as gimmicky as the last game. I felt there was too much "randomness" in play and I personally don't need every stage to have some special quirk. It would be nice to have a fair mix of last gen, current, and upcoming representation in the stage selection. New Donk City and BotW Hyrule are musts. 

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I as far as Roster goes, I’d like to see more variety in the Fire Emblems characters, like having an archer, lancer, Fighter, that type of stuff. Also hav Chrom as an Alternate skin for Ike. All as an Alternate skin for like Roy I defiantly want to see Shovel Knight and the Inklings make a smash debut in smash five. 

Another pokemon/trainer. I think a good pick for another Pokemon is Scizor. 

 Stages: I’d like to see a new stage for the following games, Breath of the Wild, Splatoon, Shovel Knight, Fire Emblem Switch, Xenoblade 2, 

I also want another Story mode, but vocal interactions between some characters, I mean, obviously not all characters.

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I want the old Classic mode back, 4's I thought was too cluttered and chaotic. I like big characters so usually I'd wind up getting gang-bullied on higher difficulties.

After how much prefferential treatment FE got in 4 I kinda want less focus on it. If we do have to get something I'd like something that isn't from the 3DS era.

This one's entirely me but I want Starfy. If I can get him I couldn't care less who else gets added.

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One character I want to see is Ganondorf. So far we only had Falcondorf but its not like a dark sorcerer/swordsmen is lacking for moveset potential. 

I want a Ganondorf who's clearly a sorcerer instead of a swordsmen(or Captain Falcon) with a completely new moveset while still maintaining the concept of him being slow but able to turn whole matches with just one or two hits. 

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